will anything grow here
Whitetail Deer
I have had grown most of my own food all my life so not new to soil and plants but new to food plots,, heres my questions I would like to try a food plot on top of a 1930s or 40s strip mine back before they reclaimed the land,,,as you can see on this picture it is covered in grass which over the years has formed the top soil which is about 4-6 inches of nice black dirt,,BUT under the dirt is rock gravel rock , slate and what us locals call red dog slate which is acidic I suppose,, do you guys think that this combination will grow a food plot of about one acre,, I am worried about being dry in summer due to rock but my big question is will the soil return to being acidic after I lime it to proper ph due to Red dog rock under soil... I am waiting as we speak for soil test results...I am in southern West Virginia coal field country this is a pic of field with an old railroad grade to the left and and rather large creek over hill on the right...would a plant with shallow roots grow here or what might grow here,, thanks
here is look at cut away of soil,, sorry for bad pic
oops forgot to rotate pic,,, red slate on tip of shovel but nice black dirt under grass above rock,,,,
Yeah Im waiting on WVU to get my test back,, where do I start,, I have a small MF tractor with brush hog a plow and set of small discs,, spreader and hand seed spreader and garden rototiller... should I brush hog it down to the dirt then apply round up kill to all grass,,, I would like to plant something this spring but don't think I can kill all that grass by May..may have to wait till fall,,Im a teacher so I have lots of time in summer to work on it,, what would you guys do from start to finish and time table of when to do what?
"red dog" is actually shale, not slate (slate is metamorphic, shale is sedimentary)... in the coalfields area the reddish shales are ferrous (iron-bearing) and contain lots of sulfur compounds which are released on exposure to air to form sulfuric acid. the soils formed from this exposure weathering will be very acidic and will keep forming new acid as they weather...the good news is it's mineral-rich material and you can make it grow stuff
you can lime the crap out of it, and keep liming it, and you will get good growth of food plots...
it's gonna be a labor of love, with more labor than love, but you can make it happen if you work at it
I think you are correct on the soil test prior to doing anything.
I would not consider tilling that thin soil. If you try you will end up with the subsoil red stuff mixed in with your good black dirt. You might want to work the lime in a bit. You could do that by spraying roundup on the cool season grasses and letting them die. Then burn off and spread lime. LIGHTLY disc and then plant by no till or spread broadcast style.
I would not be so quick to rule out beans. They will likely be fine.
RHale, very good advice. Burning will release hydroxides which will augment the lime to correct the pH. It will also slow (a bit) the oxidation that releases the acids.
Tilling up will indeed expose more pyrites to air which will speed up acidification (a bad thing)
So, low perturbation (no-till) lime like crazy, burn when/if you can, plant acid tolerant plant species, and lime some more..lime early, lime late, lime often, lime like you mean it, then lime some more
Lol...great info thanks..is spring planting realistic...what would u plant and when? I will post soil test results as i get them
If you have time and can get equipment, spring planting is not out. Beans seem the best if they will grow. You get summer legume forage and late fall/winter grain forage. Nothing else has that option that I know of. They also build the soil. If summer food is scarce in your area, your plot might not stand up to the summer needs then you can plant wheat for fall. NT it as well.
We have some fantastic clover plots in ourlease in the bowhunting only counties that have some brute bucks ...reclaimed strips that were hydro seeded on mostly rocky soil...do great till it gets real dry heres pic of one in hydro clover
Pat, yes, purty often :-)
gcoleman, as far as brush hogging it now. I would go ahead with that, IMO brush hogging is never a bad idea and even if the test comes back and you decide that planting isn't a good idea for this year you still have a nice field with new growth. Much more palatable for the deer.
See how lush reclaims thats hydro seeded can get..this buck wason neighboring property...too bad a poacher shot him
See how lush reclaims thats hydro seeded can get..this buck wason neighboring property...too bad a poacher shot him
If you are to spray and burn, brush cutting will reduce fuel load. That is bad for burning.
You might try fertilizing what you got already. That looks like fesque or something. Deer will eat anything fertalized.
Hey George! How is life in WV? Long time, no see - I hope you are well.
Some pretty good advice here. Soil test, burn, no deep tillage, and definitely convert from fescue to something else. As mentioned mowing it short will reduce your fuels, or at least the "burnability " of your fuels. This will also leave dead plant material to possibly interfere with herbicides and prevent good seed to soil contact if you go no-till broadcast or frost seed as an early start.
I would suggest you mow a fire break around your desired plot, round up a little help and burn it as soon as you can. This will remove a large portion of the thatch right now allowing you to effectively spray the fescue a few weeks earlier than if you waited for spring growth above the thatch. It gives you a jump start on control and on your time line.
It also will allow other seeds to sprout, the ones that have been hiding under the fescue, and allow your control efforts to work on that first flush of "weeds". And if schedules, equipment, etc. won't line up after that you will still have a jump on whacking the fescue while letting year one just be an old field with the possibility of some native warm season forbs as a default plot. Mow it a few times before letting anything go to seed and you will have a great start against the weeds to get serious about a food plot in year 2.
You may even decide that you like the food and cover in an "old field" without the expense of trying to maintain a clean, weed-free food plot all the time.
I say go strike a match as soon as conditions allow. Just be sure to stay within regulations and be careful playing with fire (but a fescue thatch fire isn't too hard to pull off). The picture above is my wife helping with this exact type of burn yesterday afternoon.
Hey Buddy how you been,, you still over in VA?? hope all is well.. I will have to check with lease owner on burning not sure they will let me .. I dont think it will ever dry up here in WV,,, been wet since last spring.. I got some brush piles to burn at the house I been waiting weeks to dry out lol... good to hear from you.. great ideas guys I will keep yall posted on progress when I get tests back gc
Hey Forester, good to see you on here. Good advice as always. ;-)
Soil test 1st but 4 now spray it or disc the heck out of it. The better you rid of the competition, the better the plot. The more you turn over the soil. The better the plot.
I would suggest planting a mixture of wheat or oats w/ your legumes for spring plantings. Deer will target the grain plants during the legumes early stages of development.
Great looking place! I'm in NW Va. and have soil very similar to yours. Legumes have been very challenging for me to establish. After several years and tons of lime(ph at 3.9 when I started). I'm starting to get quality clover growth. I could've cut my time in half if I had been more stringent about soil prep!
overbo,at higher elevations in in NWVa (maybe Highland County?) you'll also be fighting ferrous or hematitic shales and high acidity/low pH, so the same challeges apply. If it's tough getting legumes started your pH may still be low? Below 6.5? You'll need to keep testing pH if you're in those reddish shales b/c the pH doesn't "creep down" as it does in other acid soils (like it does in the sandstone-based soils or the schist/gneiss/phyllite-based soils of the Blue Ridge and Piedmont), so much as "plummet" ...
Yes Fuzzy, I had a test done after 6 years of put 12 tons of lime on a 5 acre field. Brought the ph up to 5.9. I continued 2 tons a year for another 2 years and kept it cut. Now 4 years later. My neighbor wants to rent it to graze his show horse on it.
After all that. I'm going to plant corn now.
Soil test...then burn down with glyposate and i'd mix some humic or fulvic acid with it. It will result in better burn down and naturally "loosen and aerate the soil" before tillage.
Ok got my soil test back ,it's a word doc so my I pad won't open it when I get back to school on my lap top I will post whole thing....in summary here's what it says PH. 6.9 P. medium 27 K high 167 Ca. Very high 4026 Mg. med 248 Recommendations Ag lime add none N add none P add 120 lb per acre K. Add 60 lb per acre
Ok I got good ph (which I can't figure how),shallow soil 4-8 in on top of rock with those numbers what fertilizer do I use and what should I plant after I kill out grass in picture, is it feasible to try to plant this spring or will grass take over ,,maybe wait till fall and plant,,,,need y'all's recommendations ands steps with time frame,too wet to get tractor in there but could use atv to spread fertilizer now,,,where do I go from here,,,try to post whole report tomorrow
That post above is confusing sorry my commas didn't come thru...Burning not an option I have found out, land owner won't allow
You have good ph and such because the Abandoned Mine Lands division of the DEP or the mining company who reclaimed it used great topsoil, lime an fertilizer to make it that way. That mine site hasn't been reclaimed long. Those pines are only 5 or so years old. Looks like an old refuge site due to the red dog slate present under the top soil
Anyways, do as Forester advised. That KY 31 fescue is thick and shielding a lot of dormant seeds. Spray it by the end of February if weather permits. Probably going to have to spray it a couple of times by the end of March. Once dead, burn it, disk it and fertilize it lightly.
I would throw general triple 10 on it. It will serve your purpose well the first growing season with the burning. I'd personally plant a white clover wheat blend in march after all the work and let the frost do it's thing. Keep it mowed during the summer as needed to keep it tender and green. Next spring you'll have a beautiful carpet of clover. and the deer, bear, and turkeys will thank you for it. Periodic hot spot spraying will be needed. It will burn the cover but shouldn't kill it.
Every year after that, I'd throw some 10-10-10 on it in the first of march and keep it mowed and hot sprayed as it requires. Just me and my experiences. Deer love the wheat more than the clover but once established the clover is so easy. And you get residual wheat as well. Cheap, low maintenance, and as effective as a food plot gets in mining and timber country. Don't be dismayed if the deer don't flock to it. God Bless
This place wasn't reclaimed anytime lately,Other then the pines this place with grass etc has been like this since mid 1980s I know this because my wife did one of her grad class projects studying the insects in the creek that runs beside this field, I spent a lot of days wading and taking samples for her lol,, and I've spent most of my life hunting around this area...the trees have sprouted up lately but grass been there many years
Gotta wait till snow melts 5below today got 8 in snow on it lol,,,gonna warm up to 40 end of week,,Will round up kill grass this time of year ? I thought grass had to be growing? I got a lot to learn,,,keep ideas coming on what to plant and fertilizer type
I suspect the trees have sprouted up since you've been liming, your aggressive liming rate is right on, now you can just top-dress, so long as you don't stir up the shale. Nice plot.
Will roundup kill this grass in winter time
WEST VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY SOIL TESTING LABORATORY P.O. Box 6108, MORGANTOWN, WV 26506-6108
George COLEMAN
SAMPLE DETAILS Sample ID: CROOKED RIDGE PLOT Sample Date 1/1/2014 Previous Crop LAB ID 14-00257 Soil Name Limed in last 12Months No Soil Texture Clay Area (Acre) 1 Tillage Method Not Specified
LAB TEST RESULTS Nutrients Values Rating Soil pH 6.9 L.R.: 0 LOW MEDIUM HIGH V HIGH P2O5(Lbs/A) 27 MEDIUM P2O5 K2O(Lbs/A) 167 HIGH K2O Ca(Lbs/A) 4026 VERY HIGH Ca Mg(Lbs/A) 248 MEDIUM Mg
Nutrients K Ca Mg H Total[CEC], BS(K+Ca+Mg) MEQ/100 0 10 1 0 11 %Sat 2 89 10 0 102
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CROP: BLUE GRASS AND WHITE CLOVER PASTURE (more than 30% legume) Aglime NONE Fertilizer - N (Lbs/Acre) 0 Fertilizer - P2O5 (Lbs/Acre) 120 Fertilizer - K2O (Lbs/Acre) 60
SUGGESTIONS The above recommendations assume a pH of 6.0 and up for acidic soils, and a pH of 5.5 and up for lime-influenced soils. Grazing management has marked effect on composition and productivity of pastures. Summer and fall application of 50 Lbs/A of nitrogen may benefit unimproved pastures with little legume, or where increased fall production is desired. For longer intervals between topdressings, adjust P2O5 accordingly, but use K2O as shown above. Use any fertilizer or approved organic material that will supply the plant nutrients recommended. Your county agent can suggest locally available fertilizers that suit the recommendation. Fertilizer can be applied in late winter. Little or no nitrogen is needed where clover is 30% or more of the stand. Retest your soil regularly.
My understanding is that glyphosate kills plants that are green and growing, I on't think you'll get a kill now. This is outside my area of expertise though so someone else may have real world experience,
No. It has to be transpiring to work. But, it should be doing just that by the end of February to the first of March. When it starts to green up, spray it.
Maybe your right about the reclamation since that is KY 31 fescue. But, trees don't sprout in rows. And with soil like that, it would have begin to regenerate in natural tree species by now. So, it has probably been re-done since then. Maybe not, that doesn't matter. I am certain the trees are not natural regeneration though since those are Virginia pine. I see what looks like a lot of random trees but, upon examination, I see definite rows that didn't establish well. Which isn't uncommon at all if planted after the grass was established for several seasons. It looks like about a 6-7 foot spacing going by the row on the right of the pic. And with those Virgnia pine's not being a common tree to establish first succession on such a great site, and being a very common tree for reclamation in mining permits of old, you can be assured the trees have been recently planted.
Anyways, that ain't important. What is you have plenty of opportunity's. Good luck and God Bless
with rock under soil is this place gonna be a desert during dry spell??
It won't help it for sure. What made that red dog great for roads is what will make it bad for retaining moisture. Water filters through it easily. Clover once established and all wheat does as well as anything in drought conditions though in my experience. Your biggest obstacle is going to be soil temps. It may take a a couple cool seasons seeding's to get a good residual clover stand. Good luck and God Bless
finally dried up enough to get to plot,,brush hogged the grass down to the dirt today,, whats next? ,, gotta kill grass?? ,, what should i use hopefully you guys will guide me and I will post pics as i do each step
well crap how did that rotate? sorry,, Im no computer whizz lol
I would wait a few days and then spray with Roundup or the generic equivalent ( it's cheaper ) . Follow the label directions and you should get a good vegetation kill.
Should wait to spray glyphosate until you get growth going again. Most herbicides are most effective when there is normal growth.
For best glyphosate burn down, use 1-2 lb per acre of ammonium sulfate. You can also use humic acid to act as sticker speader/activator/surfactant. Some people "load up" the glyphosate with extra surfactant. Note not all generics are the same and even though most have surfactant in them, not all do. If you find a really cheap glyphosate, there might be a reason. If one is using the name brand roundup, there are various concentration levels, like ultra, powermax etc etc.
Note on legumes and quack grass, the standard 1 qt/acre will do a very poor to average job on effective kill. I tend to hit up most of my stuff with 1.5 qts/acre. Another reason for doing this is to reduce GLYPHOSATE RESISTANCE. If you only supress the weeds, your helping build up resistance to chemicals and this is a huge reason why i many crop farmers have changed up their program some and include things like atz and callisto or "lumax" to their pre-early post emergence programs.
Corn will grow anywhere and is really effective at drawing deer. Plant at a rate of 100 pounds per pile and replant once per week. One yard squart plot will feed 20 deer.
I have had very good luck with eagle forage soybeans in the same soil--minus the topsoil. Shale clay and amend to soil test. Also, buckwheat in summer and cover crop rye in fall winter will grow on anything short of pavement and reaaly draw deer.
boat loads of palletized lime and fertilizer!!!!
yes it should grow. I was tols several areas of our lease would not grow anything after a soil test we threw down palletized lime and fertilizer and bamm we had food plots!
"Corn will grow anywhere "
TBM, that MAY be the dumbest thing you've ever posted...
quite an achievement...
regarding Corn - this might make a little more sense than "it can grow anywhere":
Climate: Corn is a summer crop that is best grown in a climate that offers warm weather and long sun-filled days. Seedlings do not transplant well, so the best approach is to plant seeds directly into the soil. However, in areas where growing seasons are short, seeds can be started indoors using biodegradable pots. Corn is sensitive to frost, and if planted too early, an entire crop can be lost. To be safe, do not plant corn until at least two weeks after the last spring frost date. The time for corn to grow to harvest can vary considerably. Varieties such as Earlivee and Seneca Horizon can be grown in just 58 to 65 days, whereas cultivars like Camelot, Platinum Lady and Silver Queen need 86 to 92 days to harvest. Therefore, it is essential that gardeners select corn best suited for the length of their climate's growing season.
Soil Requirements: Besides warm sunny weather, corn requires rich, moist soil. In addition, before planting seeds, make sure soil temperature ranges between 60 and 65 degrees Fahrenheit. Otherwise, corn seeds will not germinate properly. In colder climates, cover the soil with black plastic beforehand to help warm the soil more quickly. The ideal soil for growing corn is well-drained, preferably a sandy loam. Organic matter such as compost, leaves and grass clippings can be added to soil to improve its overall quality and improve drainage, particularly for heavy clay soil. Like most vegetables, corn grows best in soil with a pH between 5.8 and 6.8.
Fertilizer and Amendments: To prepare garden soil for corn, the previous fall add aged manure or compost to your expected planting site, to create a nutrient-rich soil. Corn needs soil with high levels of nitrogen for proper growth and development; thus, additional fertilizer can be added at planting or during the growing season. Yellowing leaves are a common sign of nitrogen deficiency. If this occurs, gardeners should add a side dressing of fertilizer like fish emulsion, chicken manure or compost. In addition, lime or sulfur can be added to soil to adjust pH to an ideal level for growing corn.
Your local extension service can provide testing to ensure your garden soil contains the ideal nutrient levels and is the correct pH for growing corn. The extension can also recommend the best varieties of corn to grow for the local climate.
we are going to spray it this weekend with glyphosate to take it down the to dirt,,, how long do we wait till weed killer is gone till we can plant clover....if you read the above post i put on about soil test the ph seems good as it says not to add lime,,,I will post pictures as we do each step so I can get your thoughts,,,,don't worry Im not planting corn piles,,, lol
I think the joke made by TBM was missed. Pretty sure he's referring to feeding deer corn in piles. I got a kick out of it
king_cop...so it was, I missed it completely...
Change of plan...gonna plant buck wheat.....afraid gettin to late for clover can't spray till Sunday rain today....planting clover in fall ,,,,any thoughts on buck wheat,,,,
How is buck wheat best planted, ?? I got a small disk on massy ferguson 1010...and small plow ,,,I can make a drag to cover up seed....how deep plant.? I have 40 lbs seed and 100 lbs 10/10/10 fertilizer,,,thoughts
I did not read all the posts. I'd like to know how you did your soil sample? Is your soil in like 2 layers. Like dark soil on top and how deep did it go. Was it just a inch of one color and them an other color from 1 inch to, say 2,3, or 4 inches. If so I would of got 3 soil samples.. 1 from the the top colored soil one from the next color soil and the a mix from the 2 soils.
Since you have maybe no work on the soil. I'd spray wait a week get rid of as much of the top plants as you can.. Then I'd plant a plant/clover that will grow in that soil/plot on a dryer plot..... With maybe no soil work.. I'd try clover it not going to cost that much..
I get all my seed from here. http://www.welterseed.com/
Look and read up on the diff seeds and/or clover. I have had great luck with kopa II and kura clover in northeast pa.. Going on 7 years on a kura clover plot, that's this still 70% clover. Goggle and read up on clovers.. Maybe you will have a rainy spring/summer and your plot will get started good.
Ed
One more thing I would not plow. Just disk the top.
Ed
I have a client with 23 year old Kura Clover and i myself also planted my first Kura and Chicory around that same time.
I still chuckle to this day when a "popular seed company" salesman was telling a group of people how their 7 year clover was the longest lasting on the market.
Kura is a finicky, slow to establish clover that is overlooked for it's nutrition profile. I am hesitant to recommend it to people unless I their level of patience and their expertise in establishing food plots...
I love using Chicory with Kura Clover....and a time or 20 i've had people use trefoil with Kura at establishment. I'm a tad biased on that as thats what build the bosses farm per se.
What about buck wheat????
Buckwheat is like rape. It is a great option for "if all else fails" or imperfect situations.
Sometimes the least expensive seen is the most likely to have "success". Products like buckwheat, Bonar Rape, Winfred Brassica, are all hard to not get to grow in the tough places.
For buckwheat disc the soil well, broadcast in the buckwheat at about 50# per acre. Then cultipack or lightly drag and it will grow. If you can get ph above 5.5 and add some 19-19-19 at at least 100# per acre and you will be amazed how fast and lush it comes in. It will turn to seed in about 2 months. When it is fully seeded and begining to drop seeds go in and mow it. It will reseed make a highly effective early season draw plot. After the first frost broadcast in 75 # cover crop rye and 75# urea per acre, then mow again and you will have deer hammering it from halloween until the snow melts (or spring green up).
And be prepared to be covered up in turkeys and doves when the buckwheat goes to seed.
spraying it good with glyphosate.....rain here rest of week,,so hopefully disk and plant saturday
there are two types of clover coming up wild in my food plot edges in field where I didn't bush hogg ,, what are they
other type... what is this grows in tight clumps around the old reclaim,,,hopefully this fall the clover i plant will grow also
I live in Rockingham county VA and have similar soil profile. I had mine logged in 2006 and have been working to improve the soil. Have had excellent luck with clovers (Ladino, durana, and whitetail institute) I actually recommend tecomate monster mix over any of the pure clover seedings)
With your soil test results any legume will grow. Get your Phosphorus to 75 and Potassium (K) to 240 and soybeans will prosper. I have not tried it but I have read sun hemp is first rate at both feeding the deer in summer and building the soil (as well as hiding the deer from poachers). Here is a link http://www.petcherseeds.com/about-sunn-hemp/sunn-hemp-for-deer/sunn-hemp-as-a-summer-deer-food-plot/
The sodbuster radishes are also intrigue for winter feed and improving your soil profile.
Cheers
up date on plot,, buck wheat is finally up,, but turkeys worked seed over pretty good but i think it will fill out ok,,, thanks for all the advice,,, planting clover in fall
I want to thank you guys for all your help and advice I think this plot has turned out a winner,,, here's what I got from our effort ( mine and yours) Here is the buck wheat before I brush hogged it this summer
Here is plot after I sprayed it and ran disc over it
Here is plot after I sprayed it and ran disc over it
Here is picture of whitetail forge oats and imperial whitetail clover and buckwheat that reseeded its self ,,,this is 5 days of growth will let you know how it goes,,,what's next
Looks good. Now we just need some trail cam pics of deer in it.
Nice plot bud. Hopefully the deer will hit it hard. But, I do believe there is lot of mast in the woods this year. God Bless
WVMountaineer, Nick and I took a hike up Buckhorn Mtn Saturday evening, it is looking like red oak and chestnut oak mast > 2200 feet with be pretty heavy for sure.
I haven't checked white oaks or trees in the "lowlands" (1600-2200 feet)
