Bowsite.com

http://www.sandsarchery.com/Solid-Broadhead-Company-Legend-100-Grain-p/sbc100s.htm

However, what is "best" is very subjective.

Pretty much all broadheads are comparable in the steel used, otherwise there would be drastic swings in price.

"All things being equal" is the same steel chemistry, one being barstock and machined maintaining isotropy, the other melted and reformed into the shape leading to anisotropy.

What types, size and weight of animals are you shooting to consistently get 12-20" of earth penetration?

Also what bow poundage are you pulling to accomplish these feats?

Hardest, the "harder" the steel the better it will retain it's edge (as well as being the most work to achieve that edge). But.... it will be more brittle as well, possibly breaking on just a rib hit and negating any edge retention advantage (like, down to zero...)

Everything is a compromise. There are improvements on a few of the compromises with newer technologies but then as woody said, you're getting into higher costs and quickly narrowing markets.

How heavy is that whole assembly? Looks damn wicked...

I have used some replace-able blade heads that I know by looking at the wound channel dulled on contact with dried mud caked hide.

The only true test would be to have everybody put their heads in a vise and drag manilla rope over the edge [with everyone using the same pressure] until dull. The head that takes the most strokes is the clear winner. I'm game if you guys are....but a head like the Buzzcut is going to cut through a lot of rope.

D2 is alloy that would make for some tough broadheads. I would like to use it but the majority of the market wouldn't bear the price you'd have to sell them for. S30V is an proprietary grade only available from Crucible Steel and their distributors. Until recently it was mainly used by knife makers. Pretty sure no company is using it for anything other the blades on broadheads. My assumption is that this is partly because of stock availability. (I looked into it as we've had a couple inquiries requesting quotes for runs of custom broadheads machined from it). Its expensive in general and I don't think you can even get it an anything other than flat stock without buying and entire heat...that's BIG BIG bucks. What it boils down to is there are lots of great materials and processes out there but the market typically wont bear the price.

And like Rayzor said.... you can get several hundred dollars (and more) for a knife.... broadheads... not so much. Space shuttles are pretty cool technology too, but....

FWIW I'm no fan of sintered heads.... but a big buzz in the custom knife world is sintered blades. BIG bucks from all I understand.... and the highest measurements of quality and standards touted.

Yeah, I hit the knife forums when researching stuff too.... Gray Ghost pointed me there years ago. Hope all is well and he still lurks around here now and then.... =D

Woody, with all your testing and experience, can you comment on edge retention and the steel used in the original (now German Kinetic) Silver Flames.

Material: X90CrMoV18- 440 B Cryo treated Rockwell 57

Thx Bill

Most of us have a really good knive or two that really impress with how much slicing, banging on bone, etc. they do and still hold a wicked edge. I haven't yet seen the broadhead that matches up (although I appreciate the suggestions above). Yea I know you can spend as much on a fancy custom knife as some bows, but I've seen $40 Gerbers that do pretty well too.

In terms of what you get, for deer - maybe not critical. Then again, how much kinetic energy is left to push a broadhead through a critter at the extended ranges some people shoot at? Elk, boars, or something really crazy like bear or dangerous African game, top steel could make a big difference.

Tapered hole for gluing.

"How heavy is that whole assembly?"

TuffHead is 300 grains, double footings are 35-40 grains, 200 grain insert/broadhead adapter combo under footigs. All on the front of a 280 grain shaft for a total weight of 820ish grains and 32+% FOC. Rocket flight!!

Shot placement and arrow weight are more important. Gezzzz them ole indians back in the day did not have steel heads ya know and they killed pretty effectively.

My personal opinion is I like the Slick trick for a disposable and VPA for repeat usage. I recently tried to sharpen a slick trick but it did not go well

That is exactly one good reason why penetration suffers...because poor broadheads breakdown. Then everything breaks down and stops penetrating. "Shot placement and arrow weight are more important. Gezzzz them ole indians back in the day did not have steel heads ya know and they killed pretty effectively."

I think the chances are better that they did not kill pretty effectively over a long period of time. One thing to remember is you have no idea how many animals they wounded and never found or had a very difficult time finding.

I would personally characterize the ole Indians bow and arrows as far from efficient killing machines....just like most anything else man used in the 1800's.

Broken head not only had a low chance of killing, there was some serious labor and materials involved in building an entire arrow with few tools in a stone age technology.

Much better woodsmen than archers. Get an arrow into an animal and wait em out, trail and track as necessary, very good at that. They had all the time in the world to wait em out.

We have treated metal heads and bows that are so fast it is unreal. 'Any' head sold today will kill an animal if it is placed properly. All the blah about hardened steel advantages from one over the other is moot IMO. I have used the most expensive and cheapest fixed heads made over the past 27 years and never lost an animal due to the fixed head quality. I have lost them due to a piss poor shot 'ONLY.'

With that said I do find myself in the same trap everyone else falls into and I now buy only Slick Trick and VPA heads but make no mistake I would not be any worse off with a cheap fixed head if I continue to make good shots. If I peak or make a horrible shot and drill both front shoulders dead broadside then my thinking is that super sharp Slick Trick or VPA might make it thru. The key word is it 'Might' make it thru.

The only heads I have witnessed that were an exception to all this are malfunctioning expendables. IMO they all suck! I have 'never' lost an animal where I made a reasonably good shot with a fixed head but I have lost 3 on reasonably good shots when I used expendables. NEVER AGAIN!

"I would personally characterize the ole Indians bow and arrows as far from efficient killing machines....just like most anything else man used in the 1800's."

Tell people who use self bows and wooden arrows that. They would disagree.

I have an old long bow and a relatively cheap set of double blade broadheads that have killed to many animals to count.

I only started using a compound part time about 10 or 12 years ago because of a bum shoulder so I have a different perspective on old style equipment.

Did you know that even though the effective kill range on a compound is far superior to that of a long bow or recurve that the actual reported kill shot average distance between the two are almost identical? Most game is killed with both kinds of bows from close range. I think the compound average is only a few yards more and that was not until very recently that I saw that change.

I guess it just goes to show that many hunters just do not want to fling an arrow past 30 yards most of the time. lol

The long shot distance threads always crack me up so I do not ever participate in them because most hunters seem to kill inside that average window of inside 30 yards. I think the average the last time I checked showed the average kill range was inside 28 yards with most shots being between 20-25 yards for most game regardless of the bow.

Killed my first deer with an early Satellite replaceable blade BH. The blades were carbon steel of, IIRC, .015" thickness, and were pretty fragile, but came with a good edge and penetrated well. The tip material seems to be carbide. It's non-magnetic and looks like carbide, and the point has remained needle sharp during a couple of generations of handling and occasional use as in scratching lines on various stuff when needed.

The ferrules weren't the strongest, and the blades weren't either, even after being later upgraded to thicker stainless ones, but the BH overall was a decent one for its day, and the tips were darn near indestructible except in head-ons with rocks.

Later Muzzy and TH steel tips were also harder than the blades could be, and held up well in collisions with bones and hard packed clay. The rest of the Muzzy and TH BH's were better than the Satellites. I still shoot the TH's, but shot the Muzzy's for years as well.

Not sure what steel the TH blades are made from,except that it's stainless, and the combination of thickness and temper seems to me to give excellent edge retention and durability. I've resharpened many blades after extended summer practice shooting into mostly clay ground, with no nicks or curling of edges, so a simple retouching of the edge brings the sharpness back very quickly.

Lots of interesting arguments could be made regarding the benefits of various steels and tempering methods, and also about the related design features such as blade thickness and attack angle, and original edge angle, but the difference that matters is the one that is demonstrated by extended use. TH's have proven themselves to me in that area.

Lots of very good heads out there. Finding one that you have complete confidence in is the trick.

Your right to say "is the trick"

Slick Trick baby. lol

I've seen the same scenario as above on a hog shot with a mech head too. Seeing an animal squirming on the ground from a dull head is not something I care to see ever again. I want my blades to stay razor sharp all the way through the animal- design and the steel quality matter.

What did you shoot them with and where were they hit?

All things being equal I find it hard to believe any fixed head today will not do the job quickly if the shot is properly placed.

If it is a shot that is off its mark then of course a sharper head will help just like a heavier arrow will help and a faster bow would help etc..

"'Any' head sold today will kill an animal if it is placed properly"

The one bull elk was a 32 yd broadside shot, 4" behind the leg and 1/3 up- a perfect shot, eh? Tuned bow, 70# Mathews LX, 440gr Axis with the original Slick Trick mag 125g heads. I had a buddy behind a montana decoy as a witness.

Bull ran off through the open aspens, went about 70 yds and just stood there for about 3-4 minutes. Then he flopped down, got up- about 4 times, rolled around squirming for the 15 minutes it took us to figure out he wasn't going to die right away, and stalk in and shoot him with another arrow.

The bull had been wallowing heavy. The first arrow was lodged in the hide on the off side and was so dull you could NOT have cut yourself with it. The wound channel from that head was through both lungs and just plowed/pushed its way in with little bleeding- best we could tell anyway as there was blood from the followup kill shot. The hide had a clear "chopped through" entry where the head had compressed the hide going in. The one close lung was the best indicator- bruised, no blood but a star shaped hole- crazy. The other hog scenarios were a similar result. After switching to a COC head with more taper, its never happened again.

Its why I laugh when guys say you can, "kill them with a well placed shot from a FP" yeah, eventually they will die and you MIGHT even find them, not exactly what we are striving for.

To the steel issue, Woody has pointed out in the past and I concur that design plays as much a part in helping keep that razor edge sharp through an animal. Taper, steel, bevel,COC, etc all play a part in an effective design. Sure most guys shooting thin skinned deer wont have an issue with any head.

Now, You hit both lungs and he went 70 yards and then after a few minuets he flopped and then got up several times. Then 15 minuets after that you found him and he was still alive? That's like 20 minuets total. Damn that's a long time for a double lung shot. Its about 16 to 18 minuets to long minimum..

That is an amazing set of circumstances really considering you hit both lungs and the arrow was lodge on the opposite side of where it was shot. It seems to be a very unique set of circumstances IMO. Keep in mind you did not get the heart but in this case it should not have mattered because both lungs were hit. IMO a double lung shot can be better than a partial heart shot at times. You collapse the lungs and they do not go far.

My guess is because the arrow did not pass thru the lungs were still able to moderately function. The arrow was plugging the holes it made so the animal was still getting some air it should not have been. I have had similar situations only in that the arrow did not pass thru but I hit both lungs. The animal always died inside of a few minuets. On a pass thru on both lungs for me anyway they die before they make it 200 yards usually.

Now I have never used a Slick Trick on an Elk because I just started using them 2 years ago. I have shot 3 or 4 deer with the same heads before and never sharpened it. My shots did not hit bone and the blades were still sharp as a razor so I reused them until they were dull. I think if a head can hold up on 3 or 4 deer it should hold up on one elk though it will have a different impact due to the hide and size of the animal.

I agree with you that blade sharpness matters but a modern fixed head properly placed will almost always do its job very quickly. I think what you described was more a unique set of circumstances that most will never experience with any fixed head if they take out both lungs. I also am surprised how you explained this. I am getting the impression that you think the head was dulled before it got thru the hide? For me that is not the same quality of Slick Trick I use.

Now let me say that a high quality head in combination with a poorly placed shot can make a difference and does. I am not unrealistic. My point is more to the fact that 'any' modern fixed head that's sharp will kill most big game animals quickly if the shot is in the right spot to start with. As far as blade angle goes....I never thought a lot about that one but it makes sense that the blade angle will impact penetration. Do you think you would have made a pass thru with a different head? Had it passed thru it would have died fast but the question is would your new heads have passed all the way thru in this situation?

Where did you hit the hogs? Was it in the lungs and was it a Slick Trick head like on the Elk?

WOW that's a long reply...Sorry.

The arrow was in the animal through both lungs and when you pushed on it it moved the hide on the off side- just couldn't cut through. I have to say, if i didn't see this first hand and someone told me the story my first instinct would be, "BS!" I've now seen it a few times actually [I used to shoot a lot of hogs on depredation tags] and I've been considerably enlightened.

Yes, hogs were similar- wallowing, big hogs. The one with a 1 1/2" over the top mech head actually pushed the tissue from inside out the exit hole due to dulled head. That pig lived for maybe 10 minutes. I followed it right away [raining] and found it though no blood trail just as it expired.

I do think the ST heads are much better now but prefer a tapered coc design. I find my arrows on the other side of animals- always, unless lodged in the off shoulder bone and even then blow through that about 1/2 the time. The heads are still sharp on recovery.

I would bet there are many instances of this type of thing happening- guys just wait to follow animals after a bow shot and don't realize it. We hear the ,"no blood trail, or poor blood trail" comments all the time, right? How many animals are lost due to this? We will never know but my guess after seeing it is- it happens.

Check the sharpness of your heads after shooting a heavy animal- especially if its a design that compresses hide against the blades. If you have ever tried cutting from the outside in with a skinning knife you know it doesn't take much of that to dull your knife......

I found this arrow- pic- in Ks, the guys hunting the same public ground we were lost the deer shot with this arrow [I found the arrow, BH dull as hell] the hunters never found the buck and said the arrow was halfway in the chest on the shot. How does a head leave all of that chunky meat on it if its slicing through razor sharp? Good design but poor steel....yep, the steel makes a difference.

Another point? I see folks tout a sharpening method a fair amount that IMO is a big contributor to the problem. The bastard file edge. If you look close at that edge what if produces is a micro wire edge, small slivers of jagged metal and very thin in parts. You run your finger on it and it will grab it and cut the blazes out of it. It is fine edge for cutting flesh, likely a great edge for cutting organs and vessels. But when it contacts anything remotely hard it rolls over VERY easily. Finished, done.

Granted, heads that most folks are using the file method on are usually on the softer side to begin with. But the the finish left on the edge has some bearing as to how well it retains that edge.

I think shaping a head with a file is OK. but then that wire edge should be polished off with a proper stone, many even strop the edge and polish it further. All else being equal good polished edge is a "stronger" edge. IMO.

4 blade viper trick 125 gr vs original silver flame 125...both fly well, which would you choose?

What I meant was because the arrow was still in the lungs it can cause the arrow to act as a plug in a way allowing the lungs to remain inflated. Had the arrow passed thru the animal completely on that exact same shot I bet the Elk would die inside 100 yards and within a few minuets. If the lungs go down the animal follows within seconds. Just my opinion.

Now maybe you're right and if the angle of the blade was less it may have made a difference. I would be interested to see how much difference.

I will have to do a good quality test on this to see for sure and report back.

What manufacture of broadheads makes a head exactly like the slick trick design and the tapered coc design as well? I will buy both and test penetration. It needs to be the same company so the steel in the heads are the same.

I tested VPA, slick tricks, Muzzy and thunderheads and the VPA won in my test. The slick trick was not far off the mark though. The VPA held up the best. I did not test penetration depth though. I was looking to see if the durability was really that different between the 4.

Any ideas on who makes both style heads and uses the same steel on both so I can run a controlled test?

I do know that almost all of the animals I've shot with a sharp BH end up with lungs like a solid blob of red jello. I wish I would have taken a pic of that one lung with the 3 blade hole bruised but little to no blood.

Re testing; So many tests out there. In your test, how will you account for hide compression? IME there is a huge difference between how a tapered coc head enters the animal and a short chisel point head. [not much of a factor on thin skinned deer] I see very little chopping of hair with the more tapered designs- pic is of an entry wound with short head, some chopping there eh?

It would seem to me that a shorter head design would need a much higher steel quality than a tapered or coc design that puts less pressure on the blade edge.

Naturally I will need to simulate it the best I can if I do this. 1st I need to find out what manufacture makes a high quality head in both style broadheads and go from there and note penetration and damage.

As to your Elk, If you put the head thru the lungs and you saw the slices from the head then its odd that it lived that long regardless of the head. The arrow being lodged in the lungs with the head on the off side hide must have allowed the lungs to still function a little IMO. They deflated only partially. They deflated around that arrow shaft and they did not completely deflate or turn to mush.... You do realize that if your arrow was still inside the Elk that the arrow would have partially plugged the hole the head just made as the lungs began to deflate right? Had the arrow came out the other side and hit the ground the lungs would have deflated very fast and the animal would have went down inside of 100 yards IMO. If you hit it with a field tip and had the same penetration the Elk would likely have lived even longer because it would not make slices like a 3 or 4 blade head will.

Let me ask you again....Do you think the same shot on the same animal in that exact same situation would have saw you make a complete pass-thru had you used a coc head? If all things were equal and the shot angle and penetration where exactly the same and the head size were identical I do not think the result would have been much different regardless of the head unless you get thru the opposite side or get a complete pass-thru.

Sorry to repeat myself but you can plug a fatal lung wound and stave off death for a short time and I think that's what happened to your Elk. The arrow was still in the animal and partially plugged the hole and kept the air from escaping rapidly so the animal was able to get some air and live longer than you had hoped or wanted. The real question is would your new favorite coc head have penetrated that little extra and would it have made it out the other side or complete passed thru to instantly deflate those lungs?

I say if the arrow remains inside the animal it lives longer on that same shot regardless of the fixed head providing they head sizes are the same. It passes thru just past the off side hide it dies much quicker. If it passes all the way thru and the arrow exits it goes down inside 100 yards and dies in minuets because the lungs cannot get any air.

I think ANY sharp BH would have been a pass through. I've seen over 50 elk die to an arrow and most that I shoot with a coc tapered fixed head go through them so fast they hardly know they were hit. The last apprx 5 elk i've shot flinched a little or took a couple steps when shot and then just stood there. [my last one I took a second shot- since he gave it to me- and that one hit off shoulder -then he took off]

FWIW, the elk that didn't die were the original ST's and the steel was just that cheap stamped stuff. The Montec in the pic above was as dull as a letter opener. The guy that shot the deer told me qtr away shot looked like good placement [?] and he saw the deer run off with his arrow sticking about 1/2 out. He said the head was new and we know all of the dulling was from the deer- since it just fell out. Pretty poor steel I would say. They never found the deer and I saw about 100 yds of the blood trail- it was sparse due to the deer running.

IMO, Criteria for a good fixed BH for animals that have thick hide or shield; Design is important, Tapered COC design with good steel.

There are good tests for knife edge sharpness and durability. An edge going from 300 fps to bone in 1/2" would be a good brittleness test too.

BTW, always sharpen my edges with a stone. Might pay more attention to 'steeling' it to make sure any wire on the edge is gone (or cotton ball test it to verify it doesn't snag).

Broadhead design and sharpness matters but I just cant buy that a ST would dull after one shot that badly just by going thru the hide on one side and the lungs. It seems impossible. I can stab an Elk with a carpenters knife 100 times and still cut the hell out of myself with it. I am of course only speculating because I never tried it but I cant figure out how it would dull that badly after one shot. Especially a ST which is pretty good steel compared to most. That much I know because I tested them. I tested new ones last year so I can't speak to the early designs.

I must test all these claims to see how this all turns out. It would make for interesting results thats for sure.

I post to offset all of the fanboy crap and bad info out there. If I had a quarter for every guy that said, "its impossible for BH's to shoot like FP's, I just don't believe it" and like comments, I would be rich.

For the record, I talked to oldhoot Gary many times -rest his soul- and he sent me some free heads- a good conscientious businessman that had my respect though we did not always agree.

Now, I think he has made ST standards into a very good low priced chisel point head- a much improved version of the original.

I think if BH blades were as good as the Irwin sheetrock knife blades, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I am lost on what you meant with that? Please explain?

As to Irwin blades..... It was more to make a point about a razor sharp edge dulling as bad as some here claim after just one shot that does not hit bone.

I have heard people say they did not hit bone and their broadhead was undamaged on a pass-thru shot or a shot that didn't pass thru but when they retrieved it the head was 'so dull they could not cut themselves with it if they tried.' I have heard that many times on this site and I think it is hyperbole based on some experience.

After 27 years of hunting big game I have yet to have an undamaged head be quite that dull. I have seen others I hunted with and their heads roll over the steel, break off the blades, crack, fall apart, bend the chisel point and even explode etc but every head that was undamaged and did not hit bone was still sharp enough to cut very easy.

To be clear so I am on the same page with you...When you pulled that broadhead out it was completely undamaged but it literally was so dull you could not cut yourself with it?

On a side note I am not married to any head in particular. I tend to lean toward ST and VPA now only because of their reputation and I tested them. If you saw the heads I used for most of my hunting carrier you would laugh. They are 2 blade no name heads that I can re-sharpen. I also have a couple 2 blades with tiny bleeders but rarely used them because the bleeders were not the same quality and would sometimes break off. I cut myself on one of those broken bleeders once cutting up a deer and stopped using them at that point. If you want them I can ship them to you. lol.. Until the last several years I used the same heads most of my life because I had soooo many of them and was very happy with their quality. My supply got low and I do not know where to buy more so I had to switch.

It was not until I came here and saw all the broadhead debates that I decided to do my own durability test of the more popular brands because my old head supply got low and I was just buying whatever was the cheapest for a few years. Naturally I did not need to run a controlled test on the Rage durability because I experienced their flaws in the field on multiple occasions. I got my game but considered myself lucky and made the choice to not risk it again. lol

If you have more cutting diameter it's going to take more energy, also it will make the cutting angle greater also taking more energy.

So shoot the ST STANDARD on elk.