Contributors to this thread:
Honestly what is the likelihood of this head opening in flight. Also what is chance of not opening in game.
Roger you on the rage fad now lols
now there's a subject for debate. I honestly don't know....
They open in the quiver..failure to notice how well they are secured can lead to open in flight. They don't penetrate well....this lack of penetration has nothing to do with the design when open. If the head was shot open you could get full penetration on a 200 pound buck on 45 pounds...elk on 55. The problem with penetration with these heads is during the opening process. It takes tough hide and lots of resistance to deploy these heads. Hit a soft spot in hide (belly hide, flank) and they might fail to deploy. Lots...LOTS of better Mechanicals...A LOT better!!!!!!!!
Next to 0 chance it opening in flight if blades are secure before launch---and next to 0 chance it not opening on contact if hit in vital areas--Although I don't shoot them now, I have shot them for years with excellent success--
If they are or can open or fail to open than there is really no way to tell if it will be your next shot or the 219th shot. Bad juju man
there is no o-ring on these heads is there?
The chance is 50/50 - either it will or it won't. No Rages for me. My fixed blade BH has 0% chance of opening in flight and 0% chance of failing to open on impact.
I know people swear by them. I shot 2 deer with a Rage BH. The first looked like all the pics you see of the big holes and lots of blood. The second looked like a wrinkled pop can after hitting a rib going in. I was done. If you watch the hunting shows most shots with Rages seem to me that the arrow only makes it in a few inches. Mostly because of like arrows I guess. For me its heavy arrows and fixed BH.
History of the Mechanical Broadhead
Back in the 1986 era into the early 1990’s, summertime 3d shooting was very popular. Many people had overdraws and short arrows in an effort to flatten trajectory and lessen the need to be able to judge yardage. However, the bows were grossly out of tune with those rigs. What happened was, in October these folks wanted to go hunting. They screwed in one of the popular heads of that era, such as the Thunderhead, and they suddenly discovered that they had severe flight problems. It was already almost October and they needed a quik fix. Rather than take the overdraw off and throw it in the garbage can, and the short arrows, they went to a band aid approach, and screwed in a mech head. That was the era where the popular phrase “ Fly like a field point “ was born. And it stuck around. However, the bows were still grossly out of tune, and were noisy and destroying themselves. The energy had no where to go. It usually is absorbed by the proper arrow, but these short , too lite arrows would not absorb it, so everything rattled. THIS is where the Sims Vibration rubber got popular. Another Band Aid. See, it never ends. Had these individuals gotton rid of the overdraw, the out of tune short arrows, and used proper spine arrows with steerable fletching, such as 4 inch or 5 inch, one of the great fixed heads would have flown correctly and the bow would be quiet & in tune. It is not too much different today. I think the need to belong peer pressure plays a big part. A lot of people want to use what the group is using, even though it may be against tune physics. There can be multiple stories of loss deer, can’t find, call for track dog, etc. and the individual will still go right back and do it again. The power of the need to belong to a group so often overwhelms research & learning what went wrong, and change , I would ask myself, am I rigging my bow for correct tune or am I following the popular band wagon ? “ can’t use that good sharp cut on contact head because the guys will rag me and I won’t be one of the gang.” Become individualistic. Use good solid equipment. I would use a good fixed cut on contact head, and keep it very sharp. Make sure you have correct arrows, I would stay in the high 7’s or into the 8’s as far as arrow weight grains per pound of draw weight. I would use at least a 3 inch or preferably a 4 inch vane or feather to steer. I would offset vanes or spiral feathers. Remember the above story. Don’t worry about losing FPS.
Way higher chance of failure in flight than a fixed head, and way higher chance of failure to open properly at impact than a fixed head.
Way better chance of good arrow flight for those with imperfect form.
I shoot them and like them , never had a problem
IF I were gonna use a mechanical, it would be a Reaper, a Spitfire, or a Steelhead. There may be others, but Rage would not be among them, simply because I have heard so many tales of woe. Why take chances ?
Any chance of failure is too much. KISS!!!
Eight shots at African animals; eight dead animals.
Killed 15-20 whitetails without any issues.
All one shot one kill.
125 g 2-bladed Rage. I sharpen the front blade and adjust for perfect spin.
Anyone ever shoot "Punchcutters"??
Now we are talking ERA. I got a six pack from the manufacture at the Cleveland Sports Show. Not one opened. I was shooting 70 lbs. and 2216's. Used a paper plate and foam target.
First one I ever had on a hunt opened in my quiver. 100% failure rate since I've never used them again.
"Anyone ever shoot "Punchcutters"??"
Now that was awhile ago - brings one back to the days of Bowhunter's Warehouse in PA.
1 in a million.
"So your sayin there's a chance!"
Bou, the newer Rage heads use a collar now which is much better then the original O-ring-- that was the reason I left them the first time--
As an archery shop owner, I made it a point to use a different head each year so as not to show favoritism. When I closed my shop last year, I kept my BH inventory in order to continue that tradition. This year, the only head left that I have not used hunting is the Rage. I'm going to put two in my quiver this fall. I'll also have a Stinger, and a Slick Trick in there along side them.
I have never liked the design of the Rage, thus the reason for not using one until now. I don't have anything bad to say about mechanicals as a whole. Some of my best blood trails and shortest tracking jobs have been from the NAP Spitfire, Rocket Steelhead XL, and Wasp Jackhammer. My success solely based on cutting diameter I'm sure. All of my bow/arrow setups are tuned quite anally, never using mechanicals as a tuning bandaid like happens far too often with most folks.
If I can keep the Rage head safe while sitting to avoid pre-mature opening, I'm confident it will perform quite well, despite my dislike for it. It's not going to open "in-flight", I'm positive of that. It will also open on impact with the animal, I'm positive about that as well.
Oh Lord, here we go again.................you must be really bored, Bou! ;-)
But to answer your question, I think with the newer ones with the collars, the failure to open rate will be practically zero.
You guys could play nine holes of golf, shoot 5 games of pool, and catch a nice mess of crappie with all the time you worry about rubber bands and collars.....I do however salute you for your determination!
Xman u shot the Simmons TigerShark yet. I shot the treeshark but making the switch to the tiger.
Roger, "1986 was an era?"............ 1986 was a really really SHORT era.... so by definition, Dec 31st, 1986 was the end of an era... and since Rage BH's go on the end of a really short arra they are ALSO ....see the connection? ;-)
IMO on Rage heads. It is the friction on a o-ring that keeps the blades closed, or I should say tries to keep them closed. Take a dermal and notch the outside leading edge of each blade. Use a strand of copper wire from an electrical cord or dental rubber band (they hiss/buzz) to put around the outside of the blades in the notches and you now have a head that wont deploy in flight and will open on impact every time. With a 550 grain plus arrow it will passthrough any broadside or quartering away elk. If you not smart enough to realize how they (or most any other mechanical) operate and just shove them in a foam quiver expecting them not to open then you shouldn't be shooting them to begin with. I don't like Rage as I don't care to doctor up a head before I use it but I have played around with them enough to know they are deadly when they work correctly with heavy enough equipment. I don't trust the new collars but I hear its an improvement. I quit playing with them years ago and doubt I will pick any up anytime soon.
GBA
I just assumed rage were the best mechanicals if one was into mechanicals, but it sounds like others may prefer different heads if one is to opt for a mechanical.
Over the top heads are a lot better on steep angles. Heads like vortex catch on hide and pull rapidly into the hide and the tip starts and enters the animal. Rear deploy are subject to kick out. Funny how clever marketing said just the opposite.
They are 100% more likely to open or fail mechanically than a fixed head simply by the fact that they have moving parts which must function right. A fixed head doesn't have that issue. They are ALWAYS open. That fact right there eliminates them from my list right off.
Bow hunting has enough variables and "Murphys" associated with it for me to want to willingly add yet another "IF" factor...and to add it to what is THE most important part of your bowhunting gear, the broadhead.
I can't imagine shooting a deer with a mech head and if it runs out of my vision having to add to my list of shot possibilities (where did I hit, what angle, what did the deer do, etc.), "Did the head work right?" Because unless you see the deer drop YOU DON'T KNOW, and the broadhead's performance has a very direct bearing on all those other questions.
If I SEE my COC head enter the heart/lung area, I KNOW how to address those other questions. Most of the time the arrow goes right through so I usually have the arrow in hand before I even get to the deer.
If I had to shoot a mech head because it was the only thing I could get to fly right from my high performance lightening fast bow, I'd get rid of it and get a lower performance slower bow so I could shoot a COC head, one that I could sharpen myself so I'd KNOW it's sharp.
I had one open on the arrow rest during a polar bear hunt. Luckily I had other arrows (and other broadheads with me)
I saw Randy Ulmer lose $5,000.00 in a finals shoot out against Tim Gillingham when his Rage broadhead deployed in mid air. Up until that shot, he had 9 arrows out of 9 in a 5" bullseye at 100 yards ( at an indoor carpeted event)....we found that arrow 60 yards downrange....after it had cut a groove in this hotels brand new carpet......
With all the controversy over rage heads it blows my mind anyone still considers shooting these. Why leave anything to chance especially on the broadhead. Work too hard during the off season to wonder if my chinsy broadhead is gonna perform at the moment of truth. Plenty of great fixed blades out there.
I will continue to shoot stingers but was thinking for smaller stuff like deer it may be an interesting thing to try. a lot of people use them successfully tht is for sure.
i have never even drawn an arrow with a mechanical head on the shaft,but am interested in feedback from people who have used both.
Best rage head is the 40ke, more than enough cutting diameter, and better blade angle to aid in penetration. I have shot the rocky Mt. snypers for years and killed so many animals with them, rage heads were born from the snypers, only snypers are better, 1 5/8" cut and they use a rubber band to hold the blades in place, never an issue with opening in flight! When I found out they where no longer being made I bought 12 packs.
Bou,
I used Rages for one season and did kill two deer with them, however I had one miss that same year I believe was from the head being half open. I had trouble all season with the heads opening in my quiver, made it a point to make sure they were closed every time I put one on my string. But this one morning, I was rushing, climbed up, deer came in and I didnt look. Missed the deer 8 inches low. I went home, shot with the heads half deployed and sure enough low every time. The heads were killers, both deer went 50 yards and the blood trails were good but I didn't want to add that layer of risk and switched back to fixed heads. I have not tried the new heads with the new rings so maybe they fixed this issue but its definitely an issue worth considering if you decide to use them.
XMan
FIXED!! Elimination of as many negative factors as possible just makes sense. Find a good fixed blade and take the time to tune it. No regrets.
A tuned fixed blade will only fly good if your form is good after sitting 6 hours in below freezing temps wearing heavy clothing and you can hold it together when a 180" buck strolls in! This is why I will never hunt deer with a fixed blade again, my mechs always hit the spot!
TBM, you are wrong once again. it is the jack knifing Broadhead such as Vortex that will have kick out issues. Rear deploying heads will not as the tip enters for at least an inch on most read deploying heads prior to the blades coming in contact with the hide keeping them in the correct path even on steep quartering away shots. But if you catch one blade on a vortex prior to the tip entering it will kick the whole arrow out and you will watch it flip like it had a judo point on it.
Bou, the problems/ horror stories about Rage heads are mostly true. As I stated above that can be overcome with some doctoring and all issue eliminated. Yes Randy lost that tournament, he had one open in flight. What Medicineman didn’t elaborate on is it was a tournament shooting only Rage heads. The guy who won it super glued all his Rage blades together so they wouldn’t open in flight. Again, doctoring the heads. Guess what, they all worked flawlessly.
There are other Mechanical heads out there much better for a few different reasons.
GBA
I took Rage Hypodermic to RSA this month at the request of my PH who has great luck with them. I have taken several animals with the T3G5 in the past both in North America and in Africa and they worked flawlessly. I never shot the original Rage because I didn't like the way they looked but did like the Hypodermic. Shot Nyaya at 26 yards with complete pass through and dead at 43 yards. Warthog at 21 yards same results and dead at 31 yards. Baboon at 28 same results and dead at 38 yards all measured with a GPS Backtrack. I did have to change out my quiver before going to one that doesn't have foam to be safe about opening in the quiver. No rubber bands to worry about and all left blood trails that a blind man could follow. To each their own and good hunting.
Using the Hypodermic in Wyoming for lopes this year for the first time. They shoot great, now you guys are making me nervous! Always was a fixed blade guy but these fly way better then my muzzy 100 4 blade.
I believe that there is no magic broad head and that each design has its positives and negatives. I enjoy killing animals with different types of broad heads each year just to see how they all work. Last year alone I shot deer with Rage 2 blades, NAP spitfires, the Ulmer edge and muzzy 3 blades, all 100 grains. They all hit where I wanted them to and they all killed the animal fast. Off the 4 heads shot last year, the muzzy kills (2 deer) had the weakest blood trails, even though they were both double lung shots and were dead within 50 yards. Year in and year out, in my experience, nothing gives you as big of a blood trail as a Rage 2 blade. I have never had one fail on me and the results speak for themselves. Keep in mind that the vast majority of these kills are from a tree stand, so I am able to make sure that the blades are secure prior to shooting and I don't have to worry about knocking a blade open while stalking an animal.
When I go on spot an stalk hunts, my choice of head at the moment is the ulmer edge. They fly like darts and hit exactly where my field points go and you don't have to worry about them opening in flight or opening if you are stalking through some thicker brush due to the rubber o ring. They produce great blood trails as well, just not as large and damaging as the Rage in my opinion.
For tree stand hunting, I don't think you can do much better than a Rage 2 blade, for spot and stalking, I don't think you can do much better than the Ulmer Edge.
I wonder if the one's on Ebay for 20 bucks a dozen that are made in china are any good?
Bowhunters are great at coming up with, bringing to market, reworking, redesigning and re labeling solutions to problems that were solved many years ago.
what is the difference between the collar versions and o-ring versions. how do they differ as a blade containment system.
I've been hesitant to post this photo because the last time I did (two-three years ago) the Rageaholics really ripped into me.
Anyway, a buddy shot an average whitetail buck from a tree with a Rage, 400 grain arrow, 70# Mathews, and 29" draw. The arrow hit well (behind the shoulder) and bounced out. Here's where it really gets unique: He killed the same deer two nights later (with a Thunderhead); this allowed him the rare opportunity to verify his earlier hit. The deer had a nasty bruise behind the shoulder exactly where he thought he'd hit with the Rage.
I don't have a dog in this fight, nor do I know if the Rage opened in flight or malfunctioned when it hit. I'm just providing info. I also know that no device is perfect; this could've been a one-in-a-thousand incident.
I've also talked to hunters who've had great results with Rages on elk and other large animals. In fact, I'd probably try the Rage if I already didn't own tons of broadheads (mech and fixed).
guy gave me three rage three blade broadheads and I never used them because I could not keep the blades closed while in the quiver. that was several years ago maybe they are better now. my rockets work perfectly so I aint changing.
Incredible! I posted that photo 12 hours ago and I've yet to be called a devil-worshipping, child-molesting ax murderer!
For what its worth, my very good buddy (who has killed tons and tons of deer over the years) started to use the 3 blade rage for a few years, he lost a lot of deer in those three years and on the deer that he was getting he had very bad penetration. He switched to the two blades and has went 100% since. I haven't had any first hand experience with the 3 blades, but after hearing my buddy's experiences and helping him look for a few of his deer, I will never try them.
I watched helplessly through my spotting scope as my buddy stalked what would've been his first ever mule deer. Watched him draw back and then send an awkward cork screwing arrow into the paunch of a deer we never found. I could see it clearly since I wasn't that far away. One or both of the blades snagged a twig while stalking and was open when he shot it.
Never had a problem with them, killed several elk. My Muzzy's will crumple like pop cans too when going through ribs. You do have to make sure they are closed when you nock and shoot but that should go without saying.
GotBowAz,
Did Tim Gillingham really glue his heads shut? I never knew that!!!
Razorhead,
One of the polar bear references that I contacted had killed his bear with a mechanical. Several other friends had killed big black bears with them, and they spoke well of them, too.
I consider bears to be thin skinned animals. The arctic gets so windy that I believed that using mechanicals would reduce the possibility of wind planing. I hadn't heard all of the negative stuff about Rage back them.....and a big entrance hole sounded like a good idea....right up to the point where I had my first arrow at full draw on the bear, and I can see the lower razor already deployed......I haven't shot a mechanical broadhead since.....
Hindsight is always 20/20....but I do shake my head when I think back on it......it was not one of my better decisions....for sure. Doesn't seem possible that was almost a decade ago....
so for the one's that have opened do you think the open in flight or were opened prior to flight and were just shot that way unnoticed.
Thanks to this thread, I'm rethinking about switching to the Ulmer Edge, 125 g. while hunting from the ground.
Bou' I'm certain that almost all of them were open(or started open) before being released.
I would agree with x-man.
The new heads have a collar and the rubber o ring. How does that impact the performance for those that have experience with the Oder and the newer feature
Funny thing, I saw in one if the bowhunting mags a clear quiver hood full of rage broadheads. Now why in the world would a guy need a clear, transparent quiver hood?
Raaaaaaaage!!!!
I never had the old rubber o ring rages open in flight, the only ones I shot at deer resulted in solid kills and short trails.
I would check them 1X hunt to make sure they were solid, but once done, it was done.
The new ones with the collar are definitely more secure, and I do think it takes a little more energy to open than the old ones...
Having swapped back to mech's several years ago (because I like the concept of very big holes - not for any dislike of fixed heads... I still have 1 trick mag in the quiver in case I hunt the blind with shoot through mesh.) I have only good things to say in my experience.
I will say, that I shoot a loot of energy for whitetails, and maybe that's why it's worked for me: 91ft/lbs of KE...
Even at their best how much more lethal is the two blade Rage compared to the Viper Trick that I currently shoot,if at all? They can't fly any better as my Tricks shoot with my field tips out to 60 which I would never shoot at a game animal anyway.
I would use a ulmer edge over a rage. Seems less chance of failure.
I. Don't understand why anyone would rely on a rage to take an animal let alone a big trophy.. I had a couple buddies try them and got rid of them soon after. A buddy lost a nice buck last year with a rage, look for hours on end with no luck. Just goes to show that if you spend a lot of money on ads folks will buy.
The Rage has overwhelmingly upped our retrieval rates as well as our kill rates. Period.
I have been outfitting and guiding archery elk hunters for well over thirty years and know what works and what doesn't. Rage or a similar mechanical is what I encourage and recommend to all of my hunters.
The little fixed blades zip through on bad shots and the holes close up and the bleeding stops. Believe you me we see a lot of bad shots from my hunters and we are doing much better now with our success rates with Rage.
Ask Tim Wells of Relentless Pursuit about them. He has hunted with me a lot and if you watch his shows he is probably one of the best instinctive shooters in the world using a bare compound with fingers and mechanical blades.
It hard to argue with success.
Do not know if my three blade rage opened in flight but after the shot arrow was found and tip was bent over in a 90 degree angle. Arrow hit where aiming or inch or 2 back. Figured it hit bone and never penetrated. Still continued to look for deer. 155-165 class Kansas whitetail. One week later found headless buck in drive to our farm, bullet hole in neck. Rolled deer over arrow channel in the rib cage 6-7 inches, no penetration to vitals after rib bone deflected arrow. Bad luck? or piss poor expandable with a lot of money spent on advertising. To find out later that 2 blades in circles of hunters were better than the 3 blade. How many deer would one lose to rage? How many sleepless nights? The aggravation is still here, knowing the deer was poached 2nd week of November 5 years ago. Slicktrick and carbon express fixed have worked flawlessly since then. Would not use another on again even on a worthless coyote. Just my opinion! Mathews Switchback 30 inch draw, 70 lbs. I believe Easton arrows at that time.
Moving parts mean a very high percentage of failure. You don't see mechanical knives.
Medicinemann,
A PH I hunted with in Africa was a huge mechanical fan. He said they would remove the o-rings (I can't remember what kind of head it was but I had to google it when I got back to the states. It was an over the top mechanical though)and use a dab of super glue to keep them shut. His reasoning was when culling animals they would be shooting some ultra long range shots and he said that the o-ring caused a ton of drag and noise and the animals would react to them adversely. It is something they developed over time. Whether one buys into that or not, glue works for sure to keep them closed.
Honestly....I think that mechanicals have advanced to the point where many times they are actually the BETTER option for certain game. I feel they are by far the best option on turkeys if you are not head shooting. This is coming from a person who has shot a total of 1 big game animals with a mechanical and a handful of big game animals with a hybrid. If I weren't such a cheapskate I would probably be shooting mechanicals more often at deer/antelope sized game.
I like what the Ulmer Edge has to offer as far as mechanicals go. If I were going to shoot a mechanical I would probably want to shoot the 2" version(I read about it but I don't know if they are available) of the UE.
BTM, that is a perfect example of why I believe Rage has had so many bad penetration issues. On impact rather than the blades sliding through the cam slots they instead rotate, this causes those blades to hit flat like an ax. I had one do this on a BH target in controlled conditions. Meaning I checked the blades every time before I shot to be sure they were closed. I don’t know why anyone would dispute or rip you on that theory rather than learn from it and fix the heads to keep them from rotating on impact. Doctor the heads you have a big hole with a pass through provided the total arrow weight is enough to accommodate such a big cutting head.
Stoney, I could not have said it better myself, you are spot on. Most fixed Blade heads are way too small for elk specifically on high lung hits or quartering away shots through the paunch into the vitals. Either the holes get plugged up by body tissues and they stop bleeding externally or on high lung hits the lungs take a long time on those big animals to fill up leaving little to no blood trails to follow. Which is why I shoot a mechanical head with a 2 inch cut minimum for elk. Anything smaller than that I may as well go back to a fixed head.
redheadlvr, I have a mechanical knife too, I use it every thanksgiving to slice through a big ole turkey. It cuts better and straighter ( equal slabs/thickness of meat ) than any knife I have ever used slicing up a turkey. Ok I cheat, it has an electric motor on it, ha ha ha LOL Just sayin.
GBA
Lol I was fewer ring to a knife that is like a mech head; it won't work until you stab the piece of meat you're going to cut before the blades are exposed.
I used the steelhead 100 exclusively for years and killed lots of animals with them. It was a great head but they were bought out and are now produced in China. They now have the title of the dullest blades in the world. I have since stopped shooting them.
I always love how people justify mechanicals because they do so good on gut shots. They almost sound like the guy that advocates shooting at the guts.
