The purpose of the season would be to bring more attention to hunting with longbows and recurves, and to ultimately increase participation with this style of equipment.
Thank you for your opinions.
We're already too fragmented. What's next: season for compound, fingers, no sights?
I really do not like crossbows lumped into archery seasons as has become the trend. Not so much worried about their effectiveness, etc. but that it enables a bunch of rifle hunters with no real interest in archery to compete for our bow tags. (FYI I'm all for xbows during rifle season).
But I don't see the need to try and set up a separate season for "Traditional Only".
Now PERHAPS there may be merit to setting aside a particular unit(s) for TAO.
Here in NM we have a couple of units that are designated as Primitive Muzzleloader as opposed to the 500-yards inline "rifles" that are allowed in ML season in the rest of the units.
Carl
What someone else wants to hunt with is none of my business and has no bearing whatsoever on what I use.
Why makes things even more complicated and devisive???
For a hypothetical example:
Lets say trad success is 10%
Compound is 20%
Rifle is 50%
Lets say you have 10 surplus animals that can or need to be removed from the herd:
To take 10 animals, you could issue 100 trad tags.
Or 50 compound tags
Or 20 Rifle tags
Low success equipment is a great fit when demand for the resource is higher than supply. More people get to hunt, more license revenue is generated, more recreation days are created.
So, while I don't support it in my State at the moment, the concept may be a fit in some circumstances.
Any bow with wheels and let-off would be banned. I'd put the season in the heart of the rut.
"Bows" will be difficult enough to defend.
So that is a no.
Is there a thread on the Leatherwall I can copy and paste the above and let the hate mail pour in?
Sadly I hardly ever read or participate over there as it is a very combative bunch. I am more interested in being a better hunter than arguing and I get more good info on the Bowsite side.
no need for it
But some states, some WMA's, some NWR's, some places already have a bow/recurve/longbow season and have for a long time.
Compounds were added to those seasons, so if anything .... remove the compounds, they invaded recurve/longbow season, not the other way around boys and girls
If that's the case, them some of us need to choose a different weapon for hunting or hone our woodsmanship skills.
Yes I would support a true archer season because most compound and Xbow hunters do not fit the definition of "someone 'skilled' in the use of a bow" which is exactly what traditional hunters are. They are the only true archers left. Incase anyone is wondering the definition above was written long before compounds and Xbows
Don't buy it or feel I am nocking compound hunters? I am now a compound hunter. Explain how a compound hunter can pull his bow out 1 or 2 week before the season and shoot for a day or so and be driving 2 inch grooves out to 40 yards and how a Xbow hunter can pull his Xbow out a day or two before the season and do the same thing? True traditional archers must shoot wayyy more to stay proficient even at 25 yards. I know because I was one for over 20 years. You aint pulling a long bow or recurve out after almost 1 year of not shooting and shooting well that's for sure. You sure can with a Xbow or compound and many many hunters do just that and they are efficient killers even though they do not practice any where near as much. Sure there are 'some' hunters and pro shooters that are skilled with a compound and they would also be with a traditional weapon due to how much they love to shoot but most do not have that amount of time or dedication so they take the easiest road. I do not fault them at all because the equipment allows them to get away with it and like I said I am on that compound train now but I shoot more than most still even though I only switched due to a bum shoulder.
I am all for honoring those who blazed the trail and those who have the "ability" and "dedication" to "successfully" hunt with traditional equipment. It only seems fair with all the other seasons we have that we give real archers a few days of their own just on the ground of heritage.
I don't need an extra season to be successful. Nor does any other traditional bowhunter. The problem with this idea lies in the reality that a good bit of the "die hard" traditional guys not being hunters driven by the intent to kill. When I hear this I sense a guy that decided to do it the "hard way", and insists he's special for that choice.
In reality, it isn't any harder to kill with a trad bow versus a compound or crossbow. They all have their benefits and their limitations. The key to being successful with any of them is understanding that and hunting the hunt you must to kill your prey. No harder, no easier. Just the way it is.
I solely hunt trad bows now, and have for a while. Across the board, their benefits and weaknesses add up to make them every bit as effective as any. Anybody that says different is caught up in the romance of their choices or haven't tried to be a killing hunter with one. To me, the simplicity is their strong point. Just pick a spot and roll. And that arrow will go there if you are confident it will by trusting your instincts. God Bless
If being exclusive is a good thing then why should it be limited to just your preferred way of shooting?
the hitech arra launchin device scentlok satellite survielance season can have Jan
I am kind of like Jaguomo the guys that choose these weapons probably don't need there own season to succeed.
What I would suggest is that inline Muzzys not be part of the Muzzy hunt and it should only be cap and ball or flint lock only.
I do own a recurve, was going to hunt with it opening day tomorrow for my earna-buck doe, but since I took a new job my practice time is waaay down, such that my "first shot" at 15 yards is no longer a kill shot... My 4th shot and most thereafter are kills shots though, but that does me no good in the field. I find that shooting instinctively, requires much repetition.
My first shot with my Matthews at 40 yards is a kill shot, so will stick to that for now...
However - I will not give up on the recurve, but it's not fair to the deer for me to use them as a practice pin-cushion right now!
I use to think that it might happen though since the way the technology has changed with the evolution of the compound since the 1970's but that has slowed recently and moved over to the crossbow.
WTF - elitest punks I tell ya. I am not giving up any of my hunting time to others and do not wish to take any of theirs - Just use what you like and don't worry about who or what others use.
Oh, and for the post above about trad guys being some sort of elite trainers of archery that shoot daily to retain their proficiency - I say BS to that too.
It is like riding a bike and at hunting distances if you can do it you can do it after taking a break. ie. Practice is important but it is not like you are going to miss the lake shooting from a boat if you have not picked up your longbow in a month or two. Geesh??
If your words were directed at me- I find them extremely misguided. If not - my apologies.
I wasn't suggesting that at all. But - for ME, I need more reps, I am new at shooting the recurve. Again - if my FIRST shot doesn't go where I want, I AINT HUNTING!
I have friends that can ignore their longbow for a month and pick it up and hit a quarter at 30 yards.
Why? Because they been shooting that style a very long time, and it does become "like riding a bike".
I do enjoy shooting the recurve - more so than shooting compound. I would like to hunt with it someday, but for ME, I am not ready. I would think that's a "good thing".
Your friends should get into competitive shooting. They could win all three IBO worlds, both NFAA nationals and FITA field worlds without even breaking a sweat. Heck, if they can hit quarters like that at 30 yards, a 300 60x indoor NFAA round should be a piece of cake.
I've read a lot about shooting like that on the internet, but never seen it in person.
. To me the season stared out originally by way of primitive equipment and should have stayed that way for that particular season. Here in MI 77 years ago Jack Skanes proved to lawmakers that archery tackle is effective by putting a Sitka spruce wood arrow with a bodkin armor piercing tip through a 3/16" boiler plate from his 65 pound longbow and in essence the season was born.
"Under Michigan regulations pertaining to the new bow and arrow season those years, the archers were not allowed to buy a regular deer hunting license in addition to their special bow hunting permit and had to choose whether they preferred to pursue their favorite technique with its slim chances of a successful kill, or join the thousands who rely on a sharp barking gun for their game"...Do that now and drop the season down form 3 months to 1 or 2 weeks and huge numbers of compound hunters would lay down their compounds and hunt during gun season instead with a gun.
Nowadays with how far modern bows will shoot hunters can increase their kill range to damn near shotgun range. That's not what bow hunting was all about originally IMO but I am not knocking it because we get 93 days to hunt with a bow. Those who say they know guys who are proficient after taking months off of shooting their primitive weapon....Who? Name them! That is not true IMO because I was a primitive archer for over 20 years and also never met one who could do that.
If I chose to I could pick my compound up a few weeks before the season having not shot it all year and within 30 minuets and a few micro adjustments lay my arrows side by side over and over. I know because I did it the 2nd year after I switched. I could not shoot at all during the year due to an ongoing and nagging shoulder issue and when I picked my compound up I was able to shoot wayyyyy better than what I would have if I was still using a longbow.
I watch other hunters pick up their compounds and shoot a few times before hunting season and they are very accurate and effective killers even though they did not shoot at all during the off season. Granted I now use a compound too so I am not 'nocking' it but for 20+ years I was a primitive archer and it requires much more effort. That much is not in question IMO but it is rarely even acknowledged anymore.
I watched a friend last year pull his Xbow out for the 1st time days before hunting season having not shot it all year and he took 12 shots. 3- 20,30,40 and 50 yard shots. All hit in the heart or very close to it and again he had not shot it all year. Try pulling that off with a primitive weapon. Never gonna happen! I don't think it is elitism that primitive archers show but rather skill and dedication and I have no problem awarding them a special season for a several days. They could do it where it doesn't even interfere with any other season.
If Primitive archers are not "special" then neither are you and archery season and gun season should be running at the same time. Funny how if they wanted to join the 2 seasons that the bow hunters would be up in arms screaming bloody murder but wanting a primitive season for a few days where it is separate like many other seasons is out of the question by that same exact group. How's that right or fair? Momma always said life isn't fair.
Ease of use with little skill required....Proof. My 16 year old daughter is a new archery hunter this year. We borrowed my buddies sons youth bow. She has shot all of 2.5 hours with it and shoots 5 inch groups now after shooting a total of six or seven 20 minuet sessions. She can lay almost every shot in the vitals of a deer target and when I say lay them in there I don't mean a pie plate group. That's just nuts accurate for such a short time and new archer and it is ONLY because of the equipment. She would NOT be able to do that with a longbow and would likely need to wait until next year to ethically hunt with one. Not the case with a compound. I also have a similar case with my buddies 9 year old who we burrowed the bow from. He cant hit a barn with that bow because he is to little to have proper form but after just a few adjustments to a xbow and just a few minuets he was driving tacks with that scoped Xbow off a shooting stick or rail. It just proves IMO that modern archers are not necessarily skilled at the art of archery but rather they are just shooters. There hunting skills are another story so don't think I am "nocking" hunting skill.
only true if you only use the compound bow and nothing else . If you use all the other hitech gizmos out there in comjunction with a 50 yard accuracy compound like 99% of modern deer hunters most "skills" are purchased .
you missed the "pie plate" with that statement!
I did mention hunting skill as separate at the end. Did you miss it?
" but the skills that make someone a good bowhunter are the same whether you shoot a compound or a traditional bow."
Well I wont just say it but wouldn't needing to get closer to make a shot due to your equipment's disadvantage be a skill in and of itself? A compound hunter need not get that close or get that extra 20 yards closer given the equipment advantage he posses.
"Shooting a bow is a skill."
Depends on the bow! An Xbow requires no skill or even knowing when to draw because it is already drawn.
"Bowhunting is a separate skill in and of itself, regardless of the style of bow."
Agreed to a point. If you have to get closer it requires more skill then sitting out there at 55 yards with a scoped Xbow or a screaming fast compound for that matter. Even trajectory issues encountered with a long bow compared to that of a 350FPS compound can prevent a shot. In fact I have 1 kill with my compound that would not have been pulled off with a longbow just based on trajectory alone. I would had to have gotten closer.
My kid already knows 'when' to draw. Been teaching her for 3 years now the art of bow hunting and that's part of it. Once she proved to me she learned what I had to offer her and that she could pull sufficient weight required to kill a big game animal I will now let her take on the challenge of bow hunting. I will of course be right by her side for the next 2 years and then she can go on her own but not until then. It always good to have someone there to help remind you of things when its happening. No sense in making a rookie mistake if I can help her not do so. Hopefully she will get a shot and be successful. Who knows she might miss but given her gun hunting abilities and ability to stay calm I think she will drop a deer this year with a bow.
Oh yeah.. She cant shoot the primitive style POC bow we have worth a crap and she tried for 3 months last year. Now maybe it is because it is a no name red POC but I think if I bought her a good primitive hunting bow that it would take her months to get proficient.
I don't see hunters divided over this debate here. Maybe xbows and that's legit IMO. The compound/primitive debate was set in stone years ago and it didn't kill archery. Neither wood a few days for primitive guys to have a season to go along with all the other special seasons .
Keep in mind archery season is a special season all of is own. Why are we so special? Shouldn't the gun guys be able to blast away during archery too? Why are we favored soooooo much over them with an excessively long season in comparison? Hmmmm... Are you for opening archery to guns and just having one big long 93 day season where all weapons are allowed? No favorites? Wouldn't that be fair and unite all hunters?
Make it "ARCHERY DEER HUNTING SEASON". It'll be x-days and you can hunt with any legal archery tackle. If you want to make your hunting traditional only or compound only or whatever then JUST DO IT and leave everyone else alone. All my archery seasons for the past decade have been traditional only.
Is it that hard to do???
Let me put it this way then...Why should you be able to hunt with a bow for almost 4 months but others only get 2 weeks with a gun? Explain why the Archery season like early/late archery in MI are soooooo long in comparison to that of firearm season? Why do us archery guys get months but gun guys get 2 weeks? Shouldn't we all get the same amount of time at the same times with what ever legal hunting weapon we choose?
Could it be because the deer herd can't support 4 months of deer rifle season and the majority of the hunters don't support a single season? That's the way it is in TN and the hunters are the ones who fund our wildlife division.
Also why do we think it is the majority do not support a single season? There is a reason and conservation ain't it IMO.
The advantage with a gun is obviously higher. We are allowed to kill 3 deer per day for the entire season, so there really is no certain number we are allowed to kill unless you want to consider 136 deer per season a realistic number. Hunters do not want to change this.
"Also why do we think it is the majority do not support a single season? " Our state is very proactive in setting seasons and survey hunters every year.
Either way....Shouldnt each group get the same amount of time? Why do bow hunter get special treatment and get so many more days? Could it be because it is harder to kill a deer? Wouldn't the same apply to a primitive archer over a Xbow hunter who can easily poke a deer at 60 yards if he wants? A few primitive archers might pull a shot off like that but most cant, wont, don't and wouldn't even try.
Going off memory. Archery kills amounts to 11% of our overall harvest. So, the advantage goes to the gun hunters. My wife has the laptop at her work and I'm limited to my Kindle. You can look up whatever data you want at the TN hunters toolbox through the TWRA website.
"Either way....Shouldnt each group get the same amount of time? "
Not if the people paying the bills say they don't want it that way.
We have over 325,000 archery hunters. I think archery hunters make up 35% of our hunters all together now. That's a huge difference to that of TN. Wow
Your harvest report is much different to. Its cool that yours has biological data in it. I could not find the breakdown of firearm and archery but I will take your word for it. They have 11% success but do you know what % of your hunters are archery?
On a positive front I do know 4 of the 20,000 TN archers. lol... I have family there and they bow hunt
It wasn't pot stirring stagetek. There has been a bunch of talk about a traditional only season in my state and I just wanted to know what others outside the traditional archery community thought about it. In my opinion, asking people directly is intelligent. Speculation is what is ignorant. I didn't give my own opinion about it because I didn't want to influence the poll either way.
It is not a pot "stirring thread" IMO. Nothing wrong with asking questions. Well.....apparently in todays world there IS something wrong with asking certain questions because the elitist pop off and nail you just for asking it and could care less if it is a hot topic in your own state.
In your state thread are you seeing a call for a separate few day or 1 week season that does not interfere with the way things are now or all some calling to have part of the current season carved off for primitive archers?
I can tell you this.....If they pushed gun season into part of archery so all hunters were on equal footing you would see a massive uproar by these bowhunters that think primitive archers are elitist. Once their season would be interfered with in anyway it changes the whole equation. They have no issue being treated special and getting 3 months while gun hunters only get a few weeks and like I said if you cut a month out of their season for gun hunters to have they would be screaming bloody murder.
I have seen some threads on other sites in days past when a separate 1 week primitive season was proposed that would 'not' interfere at all with ANY other season and each time many get all itchy about it like they have poison ivy and they do not like the idea. Here in MI we have all kinds of seasons and taking any part of one away even if it is only a couple days for others to be separate or even adding a separate few days that wouldn't interfere is seen as a big no-no on both fronts. IMO every group sees themselves as special and especially so if part of their 90 day season is asked to be given up so guys were on equal footing. Hell some guys pitch a fit over the kids getting two whole days of their own separate from the adults. If that doesn't take the cake. They do so even in the face of massively shrink hunter retention numbers.
A number of options are being tossed around. Some want an early season in September, some want a late season in January, some want to make a primitive season for traditional bowhunters and the old style smoke poles, and some don't want to chop things up any more than what it is right now.
What I think doesn't really matter much, I was just asked by a friend to put the poll on a number of different sites to get a feeling for what all hunters thought about the idea overall. In state, out state, bowhunters and gun hunters.
From the looks of it, the results were about the same everywhere. 75 to 80 percent were against it, and 20 to 25 percent were ok with it.
Here in MI we have many seasons,
1 Early antlerless
2 Liberty hunt... Youth season.. 1-2 are at the same time.
3 Early bow season
4 Independence hunt
4 Regular firearm
5 late archery
6 Muzzy season
7 Late antlerless
LOL... I may have even missed one in there I cant remember. What's one more few day or week long hunt between one of those seasons or before or after is the way I look at it but boy do most reject it.
That youth season I mentioned has made for some interesting debate. I think hunters complain ONLY because the kids get to hunt BEFORE them even though it is only 2 days and does not cut into their season. IMO it is a greed thing. The firearm guys do not pitch a fit about the youth season in anywhere near the same numbers as archery hunters. IMO that speaks volumes about what it is really about to many people regardless if they want to admit it or not. If it wasn't I think both groups would equally oppose it and so far I see a huge difference between the two groups and how they see the early seasons. I think a early primitive season would be seen the same way for the same reason but that's just me and my opinion. Why anyone would oppose it after the other seasons are done is beyond me. I say let em have it and more power to ya if you want to spend an extra few days braving that freezing cold potential 0 to -20 January weather for a deer.
As far as traditional? I could care less what kind of bow a guy hunts with.
I'd just like to see more people actually hunt.
I'm beginning to think the modern bowhunter is better at camera and video surveillance and techno stuff, than he is at actually interpreting sign. putting down some actual legwork, picking stand locations ect..ect..
It would appear that the guy's that can actually enter an area (any area)especially public land. scout it, hunt it, and come out with a deer without any kind of bait,food plots, surveillance equip ect....are getting fewer and fewer.
i'd just like to see a little more "hunt" put into the time we already have.
