Russell's Link
Got me rethinking about FOC % and much higher point weights.
Thoughts?
As far as trajectory and effectiveness, Larry Hatfield has spent most of his life designing, building and shooting bows (He designed Howatt bows). He has extensive experience with flight shooting and holds or held many records. I can't speak for him but if anyone wants to do a search on the Leatherwall (larryhatfield) and read his comments I believe you'll find that he has never needed extreme FOC or extreme arrow weight for all the game he has killed, which is more than most of us will ever kill. He credits total arrow weight - 10-12gpp - and 12-14% FOC as being very effective.
12-14% MAY be effective if hitting the animal in the perfect spot but that does not mean, in any way, that 12-14% is the MOST effective nor the best way of building arrows. It can and does get better than that.
To find out if FOC is a factor in trajectory you need to have two arrows of the same weight with one being front loaded.
Its trickier than it sounds to get 2 arrows of the same weight that are TUNED TO THE BOW; one with 12-14% FOC and another with 20% plus FOC
I find this guy a bit hard to watch but I will defend Ashby's study when it comes to broadhead design and I will say that I think there is at least some merit to EFOC. Just look at the problems 70# compound guys can have with penetration on a whitetail and then do a search on Leatherwall on 'Kingwouldbe' and look at the penetration he gets with a stickbow on VW size hogs. Maybe its just the weight of the arrow or the broadhead design, don't really know but EFOC theory does make sense to me.
Also, if adding another 100 grains DID show the arrow to be untuned then it would create more resistance thru the air and have every reason to have even more drop, hitting lower than the video shows.
So what is the case for NOT shooting 100 grains more as shown in the video?
Though both are "vehicles", 3/4 ton pick-ups and Ferrari's are vastly different in many aspects of performance and required equipment. You can't argue against being hit by either will kill you, but you could argue forever about the optimum speed either would need before it is overkill.
What may be a benefit for a trad bow may well be a detriment to a compound shooter and vice-versa. And I know TBM and few others will vehemently disagree, but there is NO need for a compound shooter, hunting NA game, to shoot a 700 grain arrow including a 200 grain+ broad head. Not even for giant moose or brown bears.
It's little wonder this gets beat to death with nothing ever settled. You simply cannot interchange trad and compound characteristics as if they are the same.
Regardless of "need", which is another conversation, what is a reason NOT to use a 700 grain arrow out of a high performances compound bow. Why not? ....after all, we just saw on video the heavier arrow dropping everso slightly out to 35 yards. So what is a reason to NOT use a heavier better penetrating arrow?
There is no need [reason] not to with close range trad gear.
But for compound shooters that hunt a variety of species under different conditions there are a number of legitimate reasons not to. If you can't imagine what some of them might be, then you really shouldn't be discussing compound bows.
Sapcut, you shoot trad gear but somehow feel qualified to give advice to those that shoot compounds. With that in mind, please answer two questions.
1). I shoot a compound bow set at 67#, with a 26 1/2" DL. Please tell me what I need to do to get to your magic 700 grain arrow.
2). When you come up with the answer to question #1, please tell me why in the hell anyone in their right mind would want to do so?
Wyobullshooter, as you can plainly see in my above post, I am asking the question...why NOT shoot a 700 grain arrow?.... based on the video posted showing only a slight drop in trajectory out to 35 yards.
After you kindly answer my first question I have another one while you're at it. Why do you avoid answering the question with defensive questions of your own?
To answer yours...
1) Not positive if would shoot well from your bow but here's my educated guess....GT Big Game 100 shaft 27.5 inches = 290 gr., nock and feathers= 20 gr., 150 gr. insert/adapter 190 gr. MeatHead and 50 grain footing= approx. 700 grains.
2) Because 700 grains is much less fond of stopping when moving at a pretty darn high rate of speed that a compound bow contraption is likely to produce.
I'm an idiot. I had to edit to get the correct video!!!!!!!
"...regarding trajectory, why on earth would a compound shooter NOT use the 200 grain point versus a 100 grain point."
"...what is a reason NOT to use a 700 grain arrow out of a high performances compound bow?"
Sounds like advice to me. Again, I'll ask the question...what makes you think you're qualified to give advice to those that shoot compounds? BTW, my questions weren't defensive at all. Just interested in trying to understand your radical point of view.
I certainly don't want to be accused of avoiding your questions, so I'll answer as best I can.
1.) "Not positive if would shoot well from your bow but here's my educated guess..."
Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that. If you're not positive it would shoot well from my bow, why in the world would I shoot a 704 grain arrow just for the sake of shooting a 704 grain arrow? Short answer...I wouldn't.
It may come as a shock, but there are people that actually take shots beyond 35 yds. Those of us that actually hunt also realize that you don't always have the luxury of using a rangefinder. Misjudge an animal at 45 yds by a few yds, shooting a 700 grain arrow, and, at best, you have a miss. At worse, you have a wounded animal. Thanks but no thanks.
2.) "Because 700 grains is much less fond of stopping when moving at a pretty darn high rate of speed that a compound contraption is likely to produce."
Hit 'em where you're supposed to with a 450 grain arrow and you don't have to worry about it stopping. Contrary to your opinion, a heavy arrow isn't a cure-all for a piss poor shot, which seems to be your justification for using a needlessly heavy arrow.
My hunting buddy shot a bull elk many years ago. He was shooting an xx75 2219 shaft with a 160 grain Thunderhead. His draw length is 29 1/2" and he was puling 74#. Don't know what his KE or momentum was, but it was significant. He pulled his shot a few inched forward, and hit the scapula. The BH snapped off at the insert. The next day this same bull was observed chasing cows around a meadow. Although he had a small blood stain on his shoulder, he didn't have so much as a limp. So much for the "heavy will make up for a lack of accuracy" theory.
FWIW, I call BS on huge drop off at hunting ranges between a light or heavy arrow. I've done it testing. It just isn't that much difference out to 40, 50, 60 yards between a 6.5 gpp arrow and a 9 or 10 gpp arrow out of a modern compound. It isn't needed for deer no doubt but sure would help a lot of guys on tougher game. God Bless
So I'll just keep doing what has worked for me and let others do the same.
There is no pay off in these "debates". Just folks lobbing the same old, worn rocks back and forth. And possibly some of us have been conked on the coconut once too often.
Now what is so hard about just saying that in the first place rather than getting so defensive? BTW.... The 700 gr arrow that I suggested may actually tune well with your bow.
Test needs to compare arrows of the same weight but varying FOC...can anyone point me to that?
This guy is insinuating FOC has better trajectory but I have replicated his tests with my avg FOC arrows- not much of a difference in trajectory at archery ranges with a slightly heavier arrow [assuming you adjust the sight to the heavier arrow]
I’m shooting 125 grain points. Compare the 125 grain to the 175 and 200 grain broadheads, if they have nearly the same trajectory, I’ll consider those heavier, longer tapered points.
I have shot 440gr arrows with an foc of 12% and an foc of 20% out to 80 yards out of my bows. There is no difference in trajectory, none. 12% foc arrows had 100gr heads, 20% foc arrows had 200grs up front. Now if you start increasing overall arrow weight, those arrows start hitting lower but I don't have to move sight pins until I've increased weight by 50grs, 25grs has no effect.
But to the 4blades point, I don't know how a person easily changes from 12% to 20% FOC without changing total weight if you're using the same arrow.
For the low FOC arrow just begin with adding weight throughout the shaft with tubes, rope, etc. Then with the high FOC arrow, substitute the weight throughout by adding the same weight up front.
Yea, yea....I know what's next. "But then both arrows cannot be tuned for the same bow". Not so fast....Included in the weight up front should be a footing of appropriate length to counteract the now weaker spine arrow.
Results are.... an indestructible, high FOC arrow of the same weight that is much easier to tune and flys more consistently accurate. The best way to build an arrow.
