another side provide exhaustive detail and what sounds like a balanced respresentation that may or may not be accurate
given the above, in the absence of substantive detail from the hunter that at least equates to the level of detail offered by the outfitter...................
i'd buy the outfitters story.
... you went on a challeging hunt in a new area with difficult logisitcs and killed a goat, can't be all bad.
I work in the business and can tell you that most outfitters base their prices off their competition but rarely understand the differences between a good hunt and a great hunt.
Best words all could learn from.
Unless you have a large group of unrelated hunters warning guys to avoid an outfit public complaints like this are he said/she said situations.
What usually happens is one person comes off looking good and the other not so much OR both look like jerks.
It sounds like things didn't go as expected but you should have known the risks going to a new area and that part of the world is extremely unforgiving. Regardless of what you were told.
You took a risk and it didn't payoff.
I'm sure both sides have valid points but I doubt every hunter who has gone with him had the same experience and it's not like the caribou hunters who all paid and lost their hunts.
Apparently it did, he killed a goat.
Sounds like you gambled and you rolled 7s.
Honestly, you got lucky it wasn't worse AND you shot an animal.
Again, 2 sides to every story but there's very little you can do now except let it go.
The truth is in 5 years this outfitter will either be in business and will have learned from this year or he won't be in business any longer.
This obviously won't make you feel better but whether a hunt or any other situation there's little you can do.
With that said, what I don't understand is guys here that do guided hunts as a way of life, and have surely seen some misrepresentation by an outfitter, badger the guy that had a bad experience on such a hunt. It isn't rocket science. If your experiences have all been good, it isn't because you were so good at choosing your outfitters. It is because you were/are lucky on the hunts you experienced. Remember, one man's trash is another's treasure.
However, after reading all this, isn't it more likely that Dave is communicating his experience? The guide admitted much of what was Dave's main argument, by saying this was a new area. Which appears to be a lot of the problem here. The outfitter/guides unfamiliarity with this area seems to be the problem. That and bad weather. Weather can't be helped. But, the guide choosing to fly out of this area early, due to weather, says enough about that to me to make a side more believable.
The man killed a goat. Don't you think it is possible that his side is more accurate since the prize was obtained. What is to gain by lying about it? I don't know who is right. I know what sounds correct. So do all you life long client hunters. These aren't simple comfort complaints. And with no reason to make it up, why would anyone think Dave is fabricating things? It appears to me to be the result of a serious lack of communication, from start, through duration, and after the hunt was over. Doesn't that fall on the outfitter? He's not the tourist. Just sayin... God Bless
I don't know Dave or this outfitter. My gut (and experience) tells me the outfitter has nothing to lose and everything to gain by defending his business...and will sacrifice a former client to maintain his income. On the other hand, most 'beware' threads like this are at least 50% about retribution and causing some discomfort for the outfitter. I get that too, as suffering through a nasty experience that you paid money for will sometimes leave you willing to return that investment. Going public with it on a website will get a reaction for sure, but not necessarily the one you want.
PRez
I doubt I will ever go on a goat hunt in BC but I don't know if I would write off the outfitter for bad planing on a first year in an area. Maybe now he has his game in order and can provide a better experience for the hunt. Time will tell I guess.
baloney.........if the guy charged full prices he better have done his homework and provide full services and have full kowledge. if he can't do that he should advise up front this is a combo scounting the area and hunting expedition and therfore the price has been discounted to reflect it.
I have actually been on such a hunt many years ago. it did not turn out well, but at least the outfitter was up front on what he was doing and charged accordingly.
I know an outfitter that gave a guy back all his money when he had a new area, pretty much his first hunt (mule deer) in it and it didn't pan out. Client didn't ask for money back, he just did it. IIRC Client re-booked for the next year in a different area.
Thank you for your report Dave. Glad you got your animal and wish it didn't leave a sour taste in your mouth. I don't know anyone here who would have been very happy about tacking on all the extra expenses after the hunt had started. Or even as it was ending actually.
Think about it, one of the main reasons you even hire a guide is they have prior knowledge of the area being hunted and have (theoretically) scouted it.
Guys with experiences like Dave's are the ones you will never get as references when you request references from an outfitter. Yet they are the ones you need to hear the most.
Are there sour grapes? People impossible to please? Absolutely. But if you are researching.... up to you who you want to believe, a person will book with who they want. Personally as was stated above.... there are a good many outfitters that have excellent reviews right here from people I know and trust.
I think a lot of guys are missing that. I would NEVER go with a first year outfitter in a new area unless he was a buddy of mine.
I'm not excusing the outfitter but as a buyer you need to weigh your risks. That's what Dave did. He obviously came out on short end of the deal.
Bad things also happen with an experienced outfit but they are prepared better because they have many seasons under their belt and know how to deal with these situations.
In Dave's case I agree with you. When I say "I don't know if I would right him off just yet". Its for future hunters. Heck earlier in this thread there was a guy that commented. I bet he would go back.
I agree 100%. Some of my best hunts were where I didn't bag an animal but the guide and outfitter were great. Conversely, I bagged two P&Y animals (moose and caribou) on what I still refer to as "The Hunt From Hell" (guide was a jerk).
Second.... if you want a for sure top notch hunt don't book blue light specials. In this case that means saving a few bucks over the outfitters we know on here have track records in areas they know like the back of their hand. What you did was book an all or nothing deal. It could have been a gold mine going where nobody else has hunted. A trail is worth a million bucks. If you've done your share of hunts you should know that. The miles you can cover on one are night and day compared to bushwhacking.
Last... everyone has to start somewhere. The fact that it was his first year should have been something you gave a lot of thought to as well. I think you bear the responsibility to think things like that out when you book. Otherwise you are going to be part of his learning curve.
I'm going to call this one 50/50.
Congratulations on killing your goat.
I have never gone on a guided hunt, but live in BC, and have made forays into the mountains only to be turned back. There are truly impenetrable mountains in BC.
There is nothing wrong with an outfitter sending a guide and client into never-before-hunted areas. When I guided, I took a young hunter after mountain goat into some remote mountains that had never been hunted. It took 25 hours of backpacking and was physically brutal - but also an incredible adventure. We were successful in getting a goat, and the end of the hunt found the client and myself good friends. It was an adventure of a lifetime. The caveat to this, though, is the expectation was set from the beginning. My hunter wanted an adventure more than a goat....and he got it!
Pretty much sums it all up right there..
Not scouting the area earlier in the year when is the first year is bewildering and should be disclosed. I might sign up for a hunt in an area that has not been hunted in years hoping for a chance at animals about to die of old age. I would expect (and would ask) about scouting that has been done or will be done prior to the hunts.
Leaving meat on the mountain also makes me see red.
I am okay with a young guide if has experience with the species and the type of hunt (mountains, wilderness, desert, etc). Otherwise, I have a problem with that guide being the lead guide for me. A guide impacts your safety as well as the quality of the hunt.
Congrats on getting a goat. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.
Sad day, thoughts and prayers to his family...
Because nonres hunters require a guide, this post worries me and I will do as much homework as possible before going, but the fact remains that one never truly knows how the guide service or outfitter will be from year to year. I have been burnt before when an outfitter lost heart in what he was doing and turned to greed - bilking hunters for money to start a new venture.
there is also an unusual phenomenon that occurs when someone post online criticism and warnings about a service. Bow hunters are a special breed of folk and it is rare that I ever come across guys that would throw an outfitter under the bus without good reason. The post above is genuine and was not intended to defame anyone. Yes, I would have gone into his hunt with both eyes open, but there is no excuse that the area was not scouted and the best route to goat country determined before any client arrived. that is part of what is paid for. When you experience something like this, it rocks your confidence in guided hunts and faith in your fellow man for a while, which is partially to blame for me not going on any further guided hunts since my last.
When we turn on those trying too warn us, then we are just asking for further similar crappy experiences as there is no reason to post news to jerks. Rather, let them rot in a bad camp and experience the same brand of disappointment. It is much easier and less frustrating to help others.
For now, I will stick to Iowa and DIY the West for ELK until I gain enough confidence to do otherwise.
I tend to believe Dave's version of events. Dave, it seems like you could clear this up. You said " Don't forget not honoring the contract though which specifically states that all transportation during the course of the hunt will be the responsibility of the outfitter. The fact that we were left with no alternative other than sitting around base camp without food and festering over our $9500 "vacation" is what really did it for me."
I believe he responded to your report and stated "On our website we have 4 hunt types. Two involve a charter plane ride if that option is selected. It is clearly stated at the hunters cost. We went over what the plane charges well before it was called.....and everyone agreed. "
Post the contract. Case closed.
Sometimes we see goats when were are fishing the coast, but we don't for a minute seriously consider thinking we could access them. We dream, yes, but plan, no. My son-in-law, while salvage logging in January, sees goats down near the water. And then they just go right back up the straight up cliffs and disappear into the thickest, most tangled mess of vegetation imaginable.
The next P&Y world record goat is just waiting there for some guys with more guts, muscle and mental toughness than 99.5% of the other mountain hunters alive today.
All that being said, a guide that doesn't know his terrain, conditions and habits of the local species isn't much more help than wishful thinking.
Goat country can be and is unforgiving. This is the outfitter's responsibility first and foremost to be 110% certain of the safety and welfare of his guides and clients, even if it means he has to front the monies for plane rides in and out of this unforgiving country, this should be in his business plan and emergency expenditures. I am sure most outfitters have a plan in place like this, if not they should.
I am a outfitter in NM and we have 4 wilderness areas where we hunt the most, with some unforgiving country as well. It is up to my discretion where we are going to hunt and the responsibility falls 110% on my back as to where my guides and clients are to hunt and their welfare. I would certainly expect no less from any other outfitter.
I personally have gone on a guided goat hunt in northern BC, and unlike a coastal hunt we were in more hike able terrain, although we did have issues with a mile or so of tangle foot, I'm sure it was nothing like this guy encountered on or near the coast.
Now as far as guided hunts go it is the responsibility of the hunter and his choice to hunt with whom he choses. On this hunt, many RED Flags were in front of him and ultimately he made the choice to hunt with this guy. Some of the RED Flags came as the hunt went on and this is where the issues of this hunt are.
In my research to hunt and fish with guys in BC and Alaska, you need to be thorough with your questions and get your answers in writing (proof), if they also wont do this another RED Flag is raised, so it is best to send your questions to them and have them respond by email. Some guides and outfitters will promise you the moon by talking to them, just to get at your MONEY. Best to get it in writing! Also when I have called and talked to guides and outfitters some are just full of Bullshit and lie.
Just for your information in BC and Alaska 1 out of 3 will be truthful with you about your expectations for your fishing or hunting trip especially if don't ask questions. IF you don't ASK Questions it is your fault.
So like some have pointed out, even though this guy decided to hunt with this outfitter, it was and is the outfitters responsibility to: oversee the welfare of his guides and clients, have emergency plans in place, and know the animals and terrain that his staff and clients are going to hunt, even if it is a new area and it was discussed they were going to hunt it, the outfitter should have scouted the terrain before sending his staff and hunters in there.
I do side 75% with the hunter if he did in fact ask questions and the fact that he did kill a goat and really has no reason for throwing this outfitter under the bus, other than to get some monies back for the flights in and out, and that there was not enough food and the hunters had to cook their own breakfast on the last morning. Sounds to me like quite a few loose ends need to be tidied up.
I side 25% on the outfitters part because we have yet to see the contract, and the fact that 90% of all guided hunts in BC that do require flights are to be paid for by the hunter(s), and are written on their websites and usually are on the contracts. and also the poorly thought out response by the outfitter, of course he is going to backup what his guide tells him.
As all of you can see the guide had little experience in guiding and knowing the terrain, the base camp cook was new, this outfitter is new at outfitting, being it is his fist year, there is never an excuse to run out of food, in the field or especially base camp. The outfitter made close to 50k on this one hunt alone, 1k flight out is not going to break him, after all it is for the wellbeing of his guide and hunter and as what happened with the recent death of one of his guides their wellbeing comes first and foremost. This is going to be one hard lesson for this new outfitter to learn. Unfortunately this lesson will turn into experience for this outfitter, just because this guy has guided for 26 years under his belt doesn't mean his staff has all that experience as well. They may also be under trained.
Bad Outfitters and guided trips like this is what gives the outfitting industry a bad name, and as always there are two sides to every story and of course there are other hunters in camp to backup whatever has been said by both parties. But as for what I read, this outfitter is just hurting his new founded company for a small price to refund this hunter. The outfitter needs to see the bigger scope of what this bad report is doing for his company. Post up the contract, this may renew my thoughts and those reading this post. After all we are potentially future hunters.
You have the bull by the horns, looks to me you are in the right to pursue this, and have every right to be pissed and write this report. Can you post the lower part of the contract?
What are you looking to gain from posting this here? Have you pursued this with the BC Outfitters and Guides council, or have you taken legal action against the outfitter?
did I read correctly that you only took as much meat as the two of you could carry? That leads me to believe you guys just left some up there because your plane was coming.
Is that right, you guys just left it on the mountain? Do they not have wanton waste laws there?
sorry you had a bum hunt, that sucks. Congrats on the billy though, they are an awesome animal.
michael
I don't know how much you paid for the flights in total, but those monies need to be reimbursed by your outfitter to all clients that were on that hunt according to what is written on the contract.
Nothing wrong with being a little irritated or defensive about this issue, after all it happened to you. Can you get the other hunters in camp to put together the 500.00 to file the complaint?
If some on this post or other posts that have been made don't want to believe proof that is in front of them, well, they can learn the hard way. I for one have seen enough to never hunt with this outfit. One thing you need to do to have this go away is sue him or just chalk I up as a loss, at least you warned fellow hunters here if they want to believe or not.
Hope you can go on future hunts and enjoy them instead of having to worry what will go wrong, just remember to ask questions pertaining to all facets of the hunting trip. I know you shouldn't have to worry about most things, that's the point in hiring a outfitter to take care of the details, but some "outfitters" are just out for the money.
Harry had his own plane and was an excellent pilot so it help tremendously with the accessibility (and expense) issue of that concession.We didn't see many goats and my guide had a concern about the amount of wolves that were now there back then (12 years ago)I actually had a pack walk by us and there was alot of scat
