Good for you.
This statement has been proven to be false time and again. I guess the semantics of ethics could be argued as usual, but there are other clear paths to the vitals that have shown to produce as good or better results in the right hands.
I'm at 63# and 600 total weight
What? For you maybe with less powerful and lethal equipment.
SB, What is more ethical.... building more durable, heavier arrows with more momentum and blowing thru anything it hits on a deer?...OR shooting a lighter, faster, less durable arrow at deer out to 50+ yards and getting zero penetration on any shot other than the perfect soft tissue rib cage?
Pretty obvious isn't?
Why is it that the one's who shoot the lighter faster arrows think that shooting an "overkill" weapon, as many call it, is not good or not the better way?
And yes, TBM's weapon above will allow for more shot opportunities at different angles than those who shoot a less lethal setup. That is very simple, obvious and ethical.
Should blow thru those turkeys down there real nice. LIKE butter on a hot KniFE
Please explain those different angles Sapcut?
If the shots present themselves.....1/4 frontal, straight frontal, 1/4 away and get thru opposite shoulder area.
Please explain to me why there are only two ethical shots opportunities and why "overkill" is frowned upon by those shooting the "fast, flat and far" weapons?
BTW....don't forget, the overkill rigs will also blow thru on the perfect shot placement. Nothing to loose.
I agree with Archery95. I never dreamed I'd ever say that...
Anyway, It's important to find a "happy medium". You can have an arrow that's too light and you can have an arrow that's too heavy. The KINETIC energy calculator doesn't lie. Mike
Sapcut's Link
Try this.
Hmmmm, Mike
This is semantics, pure an simple. Mike
Dr. Ashby is far smarter than us, specially me. Mike
Again, the personal preferences skew the facts of a rational conversation.
... it has been painful.
I'm genuinely curious to know what people have tried and are basing their decisions on.
Yes a 100# with a 1000 grain should be considerably faster than mine. And...?
The first thing that is alarming to me is the entrance angle of the arrows. Mighty catawampus.
If I heard him right the first arrow is 455 grains and smaller diameter than the second arrow that was 650 grains. I think it is safe to say that nothing important can be assumed from those two arrows shot one time.
I ask again...Do the water buff or elephant bowhunters build and shoot a heavier, slower arrow so that they can decrease or diminish there penetration results?
Finish the question.... Do they also use high poundage bows with the heavy arrows? 90, 100+lbs? What's the reason for that?
My question to you has nothing to do with that video. I am just asking the question.
When more fortunate bowhunters than I take a trip to shoot ginormous animals they do not use their normal light and fast deer arrows. They bump up the weight...alot. Why do they do that if the light and fast arrows you speak of will penetrate better than a slower heavier arrow shot from same bow? This is very easy to understand.
Relax just messing about
If they are going to use a 90# bow instead of the 70# bow, why wouldn't they just use the same 450-500 grain deer arrow? Wouldn't it be faster with more KE than a slower 1000 grainer? Isn't KE what you say is the best penetrating indicator?
What in the world has he done to blow smoke up his rear. I invite him to Alabama to try some of our game and see how he fares. Come on man!!
I have only seen two reasons given for shooting excessively heavy arrows. One is that it allows you to break through heavy bone, in case your shot is a little off. In other words, a heavy arrow will bail you out of a piss poor shot. Not necessarily true.
The other reason is that it "allows more shot opportunities at different angles". In other words, it gives the shooter an excuse to take bad/risky shots, since once again, the heavy arrow will bail them out. Again, not necessarily true.
I totally agree....hence the problem. Perhaps too many bowhunters are satisfied with hoping to get "reasonable" penetration.
I haven't seen where anyone is shooting "excessively heavy arrows".....??
Can you answer this question?
If they are going to use a 90# bow instead of the 70# bow, why wouldn't they just use the same 450-500 grain deer arrow? Wouldn't it be faster with more KE than a slower 1000 grainer? Isn't KE what you say is the best penetrating indicator?
""I haven't seen where anyone is shooting excessively heavy arrows"....."
Let's start with 758gr, then we'll move on to your 1015gr arrow.
If someone is shooting WT's out of a treestand at known distances, at relatively close range, then shooting an arrow with the trajectory of a rock probably isn't much of an issue. If that arrow is tuned to your bow, and that's what gives you confidence, then have a ball.
However, there are many of us that hunt critters other than WT's out of a treestand at known distances, at relatively close range. In that case, trajectory MUST be taken into account. There are many/most times when you must take shots without the luxury of ranging the animal before the shot. Obviously, it is imperative that this range estimation be precise. The greater the trajectory, the greater the chance of error. The greater the error, the more chance there is of a wound/miss. That isn't opinion, that is fact.
If you're hunting out of a stand, you can open up/create shooting lanes. If not, there are things called obstacles. Trees have limbs, which quite often hang down into potential shooting lanes. Again, the greater the trajectory of your arrow, the greater the chance those limbs come into play. Those that actually hunt, rather than try to gain our knowledge out of reading books, understand this.
That's why there should be a balance between arrow weight and speed. Again, reasonable people understand this. Those that have an obsessive love affair with obscenely heavy arrows never will.
IMO, when an arrow stops when meeting a bone...it is excessively light. When an arrow blows thru said bone...it is not execessively heavy.
BTW....why are you avoiding my question above?
I don't ever range anything or step off yardage or clear lanes. Most of my shots are fairly close so a heavy arrow is not as stupid a choice as what 90% of the modern archers with modern high performance bows are doing...shooting so light an arrow that they don't get good penetration on poor angles and what's even worse they are not shooting any flatter trajectory with the light arrow because it is too light to absorb the bows energy.
I posted how to do a true and accurate trajectory test last year I I could tell by the responses that my instructions went over most everyone's heads and the large majority do not want to know that they are wrong and are using the wrong arrow. Wait until the new 350 fps Hours come out. Those bows are going to shoot 500 grain arrows just as flat as 350 grain but if you don't follow my exact instructions for a trajectory test you will never know it.
Oh gosh, I don't know, maybe it's because I'm human and humans aren't quite as accurate as laser rangefinders. I do just fine without one, but since an animal's life is at stake, it would be rather stupid of me, or anyone else, not to take advantage of said laser rangefinder when presented with the opportunity. Again, that's something that someone that actually hunts would understand.
Tired/bored of beating my head against the wall. Exit stage left.
Are they slow because they're heavy or are they heavy because they're slow...due to man's inability to throw a stick with any speed?
People use heavy arrows in Zimbabwa and other African countries because it's the law. In Zimbabwe there is a 700 grain minimum and 80 ft-lbs of KE minimum to hunt elephant and hippo. Kind of meaningless without regulations on broadhead and shaft diameter too, IMO.
Getting an arrow to 700 grains and above frequently makes the arrow stiffer and/or changes the FOC too. So when you change 2 or more variables, how do you know which variable increases penetration (if any actually does)?
Asking "why are spears heavy..." and saying "I'd rather be hit by a truck going ....", etc. are red herrings. They are bogus comparison and have nothing to do with the question at hand. Only controled tests can do that.
Controled tests I have done and the one controled test I've seen on YouTube show there is very little if any difference in penetration between heavy and light arrows at relatively close range. This is true for both both soft and hard target media.
Your experience on animals may differ, but that is not a controled test. For one thing, animal movement has the same effect as an untuned bow. Do your own controled test to see what you are really gaining or losing with a heavy arrow.
I know, too much fun to just argue. Why let facts get in the way.
In testing lite won out for me by a little but on hunting shots I went heavier.
Broadhead integrity and arrow integrity, is far more important to not having to be as selective with your shots, than pure arrow weight. It just so happens, you can't get either of those two without adding a lot of weight to an arrow. You should start with a heavy single bevel head, like a Tuffhead, or some other well made head. You should go on to adding a footing, which adds a lot of weight. Which equals a heavy arrow with higher foc. Single bevel, all but indestructible under hunting scenerios, on a footed arrow, out of a modestly heavy bow, with an arrow that won't give upon impact equals shoot when you want. Is it for me for killing deer or most anything else? Nope, not really. And it isn't required for anyone else if they choose differently. You guys misunderstand Ritchie. He isn't saying you have to adhere to his idea of it. However, he is saying those realities are indisputable and undeniable. And they are. God Bless
Personally I don't see anything wrong with flexing muscles if you've got em. If you don't know how to hunt then by all means shoot a 300 grain arrow....but don't knock those of us who rock the hunting world with dozens if 10 yard shots every year.
Learn to hunt and everything else will take care of itself.
Here's a couple excerpts from TBM's elk hunt this year. Maybe, just maybe, stop the chest thumping just long enough to give a little clarification.
"The first shot of the first elk I can't be sure what happened. It went between his antlers on a frontal shot where I was trying to arch the arrow over a crest in a hill and into his chest. The bull was around 30..."
"The second shot...was a frontal shot at an alert bull at what was something like 40 yds."
Heck, keep pulling those stunts and you might have your 10 yard Rockers and Top Pin Pros memberships revoked! Just sayin'.
However, this next one REALLY needs some "splainin'".
"The third shot I just misjudge the distance...not sure how bad but a flatter arrow might have helped."
WHAT?! A flatter arrow? That's just pure sacrilege, right there. LOL!
KE ? a whole whopping less than 100? ..lol or even 100 for the really bad big boy arrows....lol public forums are always a good source of entertainment.
now if you start talking arrows and momentum, then possibly you could hold my attention and at least sound reasonably sensible.
Tell me what type of scientific knowledge does one need to possess in order to accurately calculate that many of our beloved "team" members are shooting deer, and watching them run off with half the arrow sticking out?
Seems to me i had two younger brothers that shot truck loads of deer with old simple round wheel compounds and big lunker aluminum arrows half the size of telephone poles, and fixed blade broadheads.
And i can't recall them EVER! wondering if penetration would be sufficient.
as i recall i once heard my youngest brother say he loved a hard quartering away shot...and "i skewer them on an arrow" and they drop quick.
But that was the 80's...heck we are way smarter now.
Really!? Flinging arrows, missing and wounding more then one elk, then fluking out and wounding one to death is perfect planning??
I'm pretty sure "TBM" is a front for a social experiment.
He's really a university professor that has hi-jacked his semi-literate, second cousin's identity. He posts this ridiculous stuff and then his class studies the resulting responses. Some mock, some become infuriated and some fall for it, hock, lyon and sincar.
I never have an arrow in a deer. I've had complete passthroughs on multiple elk, even with minor bone contact. I put 2 arrows through an A/Y moose, first arrow severed a rib on entry and was never recovered, second at 45 entered at back of ribs and exited front of shoulder after clipping the leading edge of the shoulder blade.
I shot a big whitetail a few years ago from the ground, full frontal, arrow exited back of ham and was holding in by only the vanes.
758 grains and 180 lbs. of silliness is what this thread is about.
Total Buffoonery Maxed......
DAMMIT!!!I PROMISED myself!......I will NEVER be sucked in again!
Are you telling us that you shot without even having the vitals in sight? If you had to arch your arrow over a crest then you would not have been able to see the vitals at the shot.
I guess what you're saying is that you can take these kind of shots with heavy slow arrows that have a lot of arch to them, because with a fast reasonably weighted arrow, at 30 yards, I only get a couple inches rise and fall, but I have to see the vitals before I shoot.
After all the misses you made during your hunt, I guess not having that rangefinder is sure working out for you.
Thats what I am getting out of this topic.
Jealousy is a terrable thing.
ANYONE else takes the completely irresponsible shots you did would have been crucified, and rightfully so. Don't confuse jealousy for disgust.
liv4it got it exactly right. You see hair and an arrow's gettin' flung, damn the consequences.
No matter what you shoot or what equipment you use, shot placement #1.
I've seen two sub-400 grain arrows cleanly kill elk in what I would call less than satisfactory scenarios.
One was a frontal at less than 10, and it penetrated clear through the elk and was sticking out of his hindquarter about a foot, just a few inches below his anus. He went 50 yards and lived less than 30 seconds
The other was my buddy shooting a sub-400 arrow out of an older model Mathews Switchback, set at about 60 lbs. Big cow elk. Don't know how it happened, as I thought he had the angle, but it punched through scapula and was poking out the off-side
I'm shooting about 410 grains now, and wouldn't mind if it was closer to 500. But my 410 grain arrows penetrate well, and I have no hesitancy with my setup for deer or elk. And I imagine I'll shoot the exact setup for Africa in '16, with kudu as the main course. May bump up to a 125 grain head. Haven't decided yet.
And I'm not shooting very fast either. I don't know what the speed is, never chronoed it, but I imagine it's around 280 fps. Mathews Heli-M at 71 lbs, 27.5 inch draw
Bake
I started a thread just for penetration data and it never got going. It would be interesting to see exactly which setups are getting the best penetration and the least also.
I'm just trying to find a positive in an ever increasing problem I see during the archery season.
I could argue an ever increasing problem during the archery season is people shooting excessively heavy arrows thinking that gives them license to take irresponsible shots and have "more shot opportunities at different angles". This thread has done nothing but reinforce that opinion.
Look, I get it. Those that shoot trad are shooting a relatively close-range weapon. Because trajectory isn't a concern, there really isn't a downside to shooting very heavy arrows. OTOH, trajectory IS a concern for those that shoot compounds, therefore excessive weight IS a concern. And I repeat...excessive. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about that concept
Most of us have selected our equipment based on years and years of experience. It's not something we take lightly, and it's not something we just arbitrarily pulled out of our a$$. I will confess it gets more than a little annoying listening to some that continually tells us that our equipment is "inferior". I'd venture to guess that some of us have killed more elk than some of those have seen.
But, I always considered bowhunting to be a relatively close range endeavor but what the hell, some here have killed more elk than some have seen.
I believe most folks bowhunting are aiming for vitals, not hams or necks. But a lot can happen in the 70 yards between the bow and the animal, and yes, 70 is becoming average here in the breaks. 50 is the new 25. Its the technology spurring this drive to extend ones range, if we ever get crossbows its gonna be a giant shit show I guarantee.
Whether you believe that or not doesnt change whats happening here. The majority want a flat shooting arrow so they can shoot as far as they can get away with and as long as those fast flat shooters dont penetrate as well at extended ranges it may leave a nice bull unscathed to be hunted by a real bowhunter sometime. Thats the positive.
The negative is here you have an animal running around looking like a pin cushion and a lot of landowners and general public frown on that, as they should. Sometimes things happen when we bowhunt, it comes with the territory and most understand that and with responsible, ethical behavior we can eliminate the majority of the pin cushion critters.
As far as this arrow weight debate goes, and the shoot at all angles idea, I dont know for sure where I stand, I mean, if a guy is shooting a setup adequate to penetrate elephant ribs, is it adequate for a elk humorous? Maybe? Probably? I cant really answer that. I will say that it likely isnt less ethical than the 70 yarder if you know that your equipment is up to the task because you have tested and confirmed it.
Maybe were all wrong, maybe we should all use moderate weight arrows and choose our shots carefully and keep them close? Bowhunting sure is fun!
If some people would get off their high horse long enough to actually read what has been posted, instead of being blinded by their "heavy at all costs" mentality, that's what we've been saying all along. Don't know where the 70 yarder came from. I haven't seen one post advocating that.
"Look, I get it. Those that shoot trad are shooting a relatively close-range weapon. Because trajectory isn't a concern, there really isn't a downside to shooting very heavy arrows. OTOH, trajectory IS a concern for those that shoot compounds, therefore excessive weight IS a concern. And I repeat...excessive. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about that concept"
Is it inferior because it has less momentum at the target than a heavier arrow? Is it superior? Seems like inferiority to me.
If one is concerned about trajectory shooting 6gpp out of a 70# compound it isn't because he's keeping under 50 yards. What are all the costs of a so called 'heavy' arrow? Please enlighten?
I am curious how an elephant rib stacks up against an elk humorous though. Anyone know? How about Cape buffalo?
P.S. Just cut and paste next time and you wont have any spelling errors. :) WHOOAAH NELLY!!!
But I really think, to them, it is ALL about FFF...Fast flat and far because they can't pull a bow heavy enough to shoot a heavy arrow in the same fashion. So FFF wins out over a ball joint or error insurance.
Just different objectives I guess.
The guy making a bad shot at a crappy angle with a heavy arrow and misjudging trajectory after a chronic attack of buck fever is no less a sinner than the guy making a bad shot with a lighter arrow at longer range.
Sapcut is right about not hearing from the light arrow guys whose arrows were stopped by the mysterious heavy bones, just as we won't hear the stories of hitting too high or too low from misjudging trajectory with uber-heavy arrows.
It is interesting, though, that virtually everyone I know who has killed dozens of elk seem to have settled on the 450-500 grain range with multi-blade heads, give or take, compound or trad. The uber-heavy, single blade, and the long range, lighter-faster guys are often relative beginners who possess more opinion than real experience.
This is not an elk thread, so his experience and success has no bearing at all...totally irrevallant.
I'm going to be hunting deer and taking close shots through thick brush and only getting brief shot opportunities. It's exactly what I did last season with a 620 grain arrow except this season I should get at least 20% better penetration.
Besides, if you want to play the experience card, I've probably killed more deer than 20 average bowsiters combined. I think I'll go shoot one tomorrow!!!!
This bugged me and peaked my interest enough that I set out to find out what the best weight really is out of a modern compound like mine. Certainly a modern compound should not NEED the same weight arrow as a slow 70's recurve like mine but I think the problem is the fact that even though the modern compounds are much faster than older equipment they still are not fast enough to overcome and are they really 'that much' faster when comparing apples to apples. If we compare a 350 grain arrow speed to that of a 600 grain arrow it seems obvious but its not! We equate speed to power and though its true to a point you still need enough extra speed to overcome and it seems compounds as advanced as they are still are not there yet. If a formula existed it would be easy. I would be curious to know what speed a bow like mine would fling my old arrows. I think if guys shot a 600 grain arrow out of their new 330FPS compound before they set it up they would be stunned at how slow it really is because IBO'S are based off 350G arrows. The compound though much faster in FPS based on those weights is still not fast enough yet to overcome that extra weight going just a little slower.
I think when Compounds reach the 400+ FPS range then a 380-400 grain arrow will not even be a discussion. My bow for example would supposedly shoot a 600 grain arrow 248FPS with no weight on the string. 323 is the bows IBO with a 350 grain arrow. LMOA. I bet my old recurve would shoot that same arrow 170FPS so now we have a 78 FPS difference and it is not as huge when you look at it that way instead of looking at 323FPS with a 350 grain arrow. Certainly that mistake can easily be made by a hunter when looking at the huge differences in that IBO way but in reality the differences are much smaller than we think when comparing apples to apples.
It's probably more reasonable to assume if an old recurve shoots a 550G arrow 170 FPS that a modern compound could get the same result with a lighter arrow but likely only with about 50 grains lighter of an arrow tops.My guess is and it is only a guess is that in order for a 400 grain arrow to work as well as a 600 grain arrow it would need to travel at least 150+FPS FASTER.
If you're shooting "through thick brush" at any animal with an arrow then this discussion should probably take a different direction.
none
range estimation is range estimation - you can do it or you can't regardless of how fast your arrows are going
this is suppose to be bowhunting - a 20 yard game, not a 120 yard shootfest
I like my 600 gr total weight, I'd go to 700 or 800 if my arrows would allow for it (they don't and I'm too cheap to buy new arrows right now, so 600 works)
you will very rarely see anyone lose a deer with heavy arrows and COI head
there's a reason
Ever heard of an arrow that wouldn't penetrate due to the arrow being too light....even with a super flat trajectory?
Which end of the extreme spectrum do you think most bowholders reside the closest?
People lose deer every day with heavy arrows and COI broadheads. A bad shot is a bad shot, and a pass-through gut shot, ham shot, neck shot, etc. is the same whether made with a 300 grain arrow or a 1000 grain arrow. It's all well and good to wish bowhunting was a 20 yard game, but I can't find that in the bowhunting rule book. Can you point it out?
In all of my old bowhunting literature, those fellows were launching arrows at long ranges, flinging at r uh n Ming critters, missing and wounding regularly. With their hunting styles, they'd have loved to hunt with 350 grain carbon arrows.
Now if we're talking about shooting through brush, cedar trees, kudzu, briar tangles, stone walls, fences and other obstacles in desperate attempts to just hit a deer somewhere, anywhere, before setting out the tracking dogs, you and TBM are probably on the right path.
And theres always going to be people that think 600 grains is too light. Because they have settled on 700 grains. 700 is going to be too light to the guy that settled on 800 grains and so it goes.
Hitting ball joints? really? I think that's fodder for a different topic.
Under kill? Yes I see in threads here many times the under kill.
Never saw the overkill
Amusing me very much
Go out back and play catch with your kid at different distances with a baseball. Then do it with a lead ball. Which one hits the target more often?
(4.5# equals 31,500gr I believe)
