P and Y membership levels- opinions
General Topic
Curious about what others opinions are of the current membership levels of the Pope and Young Club. Please discuss. I don't even know truly what they are named and what the qualifications are for them. Why are there levels in place? A few years ago a good explanation was given to me but I have since forgotten it. I do believe that at my current level, which is the lowest, that I can only vote for the second vice president position. I would have to be at a higher level to vote for president, etc. I support the club but I do not understand levels of membership. I also believe it costs a member more to be in a higher level of membership also. If others can elaborate on the benefits of the different levels of membership, it may help me to personally understand it better.
Ned: There is a complete explanation of every level on the P&Y website. Are you hoping to advance soon?? I will be happy to sponsor your advancement application.
www.pope-young.org
No. I do not want to advance and lean toward levels being eliminated. I will look at the website to help educate myself.
The website does list the levels of membership and its requirements to obtain different levels. What it doesn't explain is to why those levels are in place and how does level membership benefit the club.
The levels help to separate the really serious members, the elite if you will, from the everyday guys. it is a good process. has served club well for years
At the conventions to the various levels mix readily or kind of hang to themselves?
This oughta be good............
The different levels of membership give you the ability to vote on more changes to the club
I think the general idea is that only vetted members who have been in the organization for some time have the ability to vote on club by-laws and policies. A very sound idea, in my opinion, as these people tend to have a better understanding of club history and ideals.
Ollie: That is as good an explanation as we could get! Right on!
Bou,all the levels mix better than the guys that don't come.
Yeah a vetted member will be more knowledgable of the club for sure. Better than saying more serious.
At the convention the chairs at the tables for Associate members are a little shorter than those of the Regular and Senior members (who get to sit in director's chairs). They used to make the Associate members sit at separate "kiddie tables", wear funny paper hats, and served only Kool-Aid, but now they're allowed to mingle freely and even speak before spoken to. :-)
Seriously, there is no "caste system" at the conventions. We're all just serious bowhunters there to have a great time.
But a guy that is vetted with the club for 18 years, has been a mentor in the Archery in schools program and a Bowhunting Education Instructor, is committed to conservation via different ways, is knowledgeable of club politics, but solely hunts whitetails, cannot advance to be able to vote on "more important things". A person told me that if lower level members were able to vote on everything, it is possible to get a bunch of antis as members, which could influence a vote. IDK.
The current system in place has worked for the club and I am not trying to stir the pot. Instead I am trying to understand it. Thought it would be good discussion. Just think their are some valued votes that could be had out there.
Funny stuff Jaquomo. I have never looked at another person as a Senior member or whatever while I have attended. So I have never witnessed bias. Don't give Jake Kool-aide, hope he is upper level.
Pat x 2, Good comments! Kurt
I also "qualify" as a Regular member but have chosen to remain an Associate.Been alot of push for changes and I guess I'm waiting for some years of stability before I feel like being a part of the democratic process.
I have been a member of P&Y for about 24 yrs. I am "Associate" status member. According to the rules, I am long past eligibility to upgrade in membership status. I have been encouraged to upgrade, but I am happy with just being a member as I support what the organization is about, stands for and represents. I was a member of P&Y before I ever entered a animal in the P&Y record book
I have attended 4 conventions and hope to attend the convention next month. I have never felt intimidated or disparaged by Regular or Senior status members at P&Y conventions or other bowhunting meeting or events that I attend or am a member of. I have found that most people are just people. I try to treat people the way I would like to be treated and most of the time the treatment is reciprocal in nature.
Good thread, Ned.
I like the tiered system. Sometimes you need to understand where you have been to get to a better place. Not sure if they need to differentiate regular and senior though.
I like the way the club is headed with Jim as president. The new records chairman is a good guy too, right Ed :).
I like the tiered system.
When I first found out about the club I had killed a pretty nice Brown Bear. I buddy talked me into entering him in P&Y. At the time, I really didn't feel worthy of being an equal member with the folks who had been participating, most at that time, from the actual beginning of the club. I was in awe of those guys.
Now that I've met the requirements to become a regular member, I really don't feel worthy of being a senior member. Part of that might be I don't want to admit how old I'm getting, but nonetheless senior members are indeed an elite group of Bowhunters. I aspire someday to be one.
From the vantage point of a senior member that has passed his 30th year of club membership, I am glad that the time span to move from associate to regular member has potentially reduced from the 17 years it took in my case. It took this long while I waited for an "opening" for another regular member back in the days when Regular members where capped at 100 if I remember correctly. Note that I was not that much smarter after 17 years as an associate than what I was after 5 years and and had a couple of convention/banquets under my belt! When the proper amount of elapsed time had passed to advance from regular to senior, it seems like it just happened. Note that I had enough P&Y animals and species collected to be a senior member when I joined the club.
Do I support tiered membership........yes but on a reasonably short timeline to move from associate to regular membership (allows you to vote on bylaw changes, BOD, new Regular members, etc).
Bob, As a member for 18 years or so I am in awe of you. Not because of the number of animals that you have entered nor your level of membership. Rather I am in awe of what you have trusted to the Club. Whether it be monetary or your properties, it is so commendable and I thank you personally. I would make a extraspecial membership for you "Elite". Lol But there is a recognition I believe called the Fred Bear Society? Not for sure but I recall it from the publication and the last convetion. Still, I appreciate that all members are so approachable no matter what level one falls into.
It seems that the consensus is favorable for leveled membership but the explanations do not define how it benefits the club. Levels could be personal goals to achieve in my mind but to deprive a good vote from occurring just because of level status is something the club is missing out on. Take for example Pat. He is so knowledgable yet his vote is nonexistent for certain important matters. Mine excluded also. But as Charlie mentions, if I feel like it is so important to me that I have a vote I should seek to climb levels. But like others I don't feel like its something I should have to do to be able to. Its not that I am not vested or vetted nor ignorant nor not enough "serious" either. So my vote remains silent. On a side not it costs more to be in the upper levels also. Not sure why.
I have been a member of P&Y since 1979, and have seen many changes over the years, and I am as excited about the club now as I have ever been. One of the major benefits that tiered membership provides the club is a chance for a new member to show his dedication to bowhunting before he has the right to vote on issues affecting the club. Could you imagine what would happen if you had members able to vote as soon as they join, and some large animal rights organization like PETA flooded the membership with new members? I think you see how tiered membership benefits the club and all who bowhunt. Ron
Sorry, I should have also added if you are an associate member and are qualified for regular membership, please apply for regular membership, we need your input and want your vote. Ron
Change is not always for the better. Gimmicks has taken over "The Club" .... and most don't see thru that. Now it's this change that is forever changing "The Club" and the club is not something I recognize now.
I feel The Pope & Young Club has been raped and in that rape, a new birth has been born .... right or wrong ... I guess it is what it is! To me it is just sad that now most do not realize what/why/who is driving this change! No elitist to it .... it is just that I myself accepted The Pope & Young Club for what it was and "I rode for the brand" and stood by The Club and with The Club as it was! (JMHO)
Herm it is unusual to see a less than optimistic post from you.
Although I respect and appreciate the opinion provided above, recent changes allow for much broader participation in the "Club" and as a result the Club automatically becomes stronger and more relevant. The more relevant the "Club" is the better its existence is for Bowhunting and promoting the future of Bowhunting.
Thank you to the existing officers, directors, board members and committee members of the Pope & Young Club, job well done!!!
And there-in lies the problem. The good old boy mentality, and honestly, I'm a pretty good old boy. That statement by headhunter is one of the major reasons that "the club" is seen as elitist, pompous, jaded, and/or secular.
I for one am a relativly new member, but have meet some Excelent people through the club and conventions. I am NOT a regular member, nor do I qualify, it makes little differance to me honestly. I do feel that the membership structure to some degree perpetuates that stigma, but like I said, I personally don't worry much about it. That said I felt that the attitude projected in general by "the club" was somewhat a barrier to entry in itself. That kind of attitude in my opinion has held the club down, as far as membership, finances, growth, and overall perception.
Our state organization has a similar stance, and it has be come a joke to me. I was a member, attended convention, and financially supported beyond my dues. no longer, there are better places to spend my money time and effort. I would hate to see P&Y go down a similar path.
I think that P&Y in general has recognized that and has started to make changes to the organization to promote long term sustainability, and continued influence in the hunting (and obviously bowhunting) world.
I am a proud member of "the club", but I hope it is not the same club that headhunter represents. It is sad for me to see the contempt and pompousness inflicted by members who feel that the only way is the old way (their way). Dinosaurs probably had the same thought process...
--Jim
I think Bob and I were typing at the same time, he took a slightly more diplomatic approach than I, and I very much respect his opinions and experience.
Sorry if I came off as grouchy, but that type of thinking really rubs me wrong! Thanks for balancing me out Bob, see you in AZ.
--Jim
Herm, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion, because I have been there too. I began bowhunting in 1958 and If I could have seen what bowhunting looked like in 2015 I would not have thought that was possible. I believe what we consider bowhunting and what we feel is ethical is influenced a great deal by what bowhunting was during our formulative years. I also supported the brand for a long time as the brand and I were the same. It is hard to accept change, I once had a philosophy prof tell me the only constant is change. But as hard as change can be sometimes we must step back and look at the big picture. I did, and I saw younger bowhunters just as fervent about bowhunting and ethics as I was when I was their age. But, most alarming was seeing the growth in bowhunting and not seeing the commensurate growth in the club. We have to change to be relevant, and I dont see it as a compromise on principles. I cant say my principles are more important(relative) than anybody elses.Sometimes people like us are referred to as dinosaurs, well like the dinosaurs we must adapt or perish. I wish you only the best. Ron
The Club is for the "future of bow hunting" not for us! If you start to think of it that way it helps to get us off our personal views on a particular issue!
That said you can not lead without knowing where you came from and the vast majority of us respect and have learned from the past founders and Club leaders.
I know Headhunter a bit and I know JTreeman a bit. Words on the Internet make you appear at polar opposites but you are not!
Bottom line is if you desire to influence the "future of bow hunting" you need to be involved. There are many ways to do this and one very important way is to look at the steps needed to become a Regular Member and go for it! Membership is of course "optional" but nobody is saying you CAN'T be a member! It's a decision, go for it! C
Is / Was The Pope & Young Club not ever 'relevant'? I feel that it is / was! I just could never imagine 'myself' trying to change something into something else other than the way it is / was when I first joined. That is all I am saying!
Other "Clubs" have formed in the past that didn't agree with The P&Y Club as it stood. So all I'm saying is 'why' join a existing club just to change it into something it isn't / wasn't?
But so be it and I just do not understand, but I do accept it for what it is now forward!
More members and more advertisements and more monies generated moving the club into the industry driven money pit of profit and loss as the sole reason of prosperity.
Membership levels? .... Make one and All the Same! Better to do that than to have feuds over this concept of ranking one type of member over another type. I am not and never have been a 'elitist'! No one is better than another! We are All the Same as it should be (I think) ....
Charlie said it well, but I’ll say it a different way.
Once us old ***** are gone, the Club could actually cease to exist unless we recognize our youths are not only the future of Bowhunting, they are the future of the P&Y club.
The rich tradition of members, especially senior members, has to also be recognized, but rich tradition can't be substituted for, or overcome, the reality of time. Hopefully our seniors continue to support the evolution and growth of the club to bring in as many younger folks as possible.
I agree with what Blacktail Bob articulates and I am one of the old *******. We have made progress....evolving recently. I bet membership numbers are and will increase due in part to new policies and attitudes. Very few things are the same now as 50 odd years ago when the club was founded, or 30 years ago when I joined P&Y. This is how the world works.......if you don't evolve and grow with new younger members you will become extinct or at least irrelevant. Not everyone deals well with constant change, but it is the norm in our world. It doesn't mean the old way was wrong, just that times change most everything.
I agree with Headhunter. nuff said!!
A lot of stuff has changed during my life span, some I like some I sure don't.
But since I can't have the "like" without the "don't", I just appreciate the good and learn to tolerate the rest.
The present was handed to us from the past and we shaped it to our own liking. Now we can expect the same will happen again.
And just a personal vexation: I hate it when people say nothing and then add "nuff said". But maybe I should be happy for the brevity.
When I joined it was to support a way of life that that I loved for 50 plus years in hope that that future generation would be able to enjoy that that passion for the outdoors that has consumed just about everyday of my life since I was old enough to draw my longbow.it was a way to give back something to the sport.I really could care less about membership levels and someday hope I will get to attend a convention just because I just love to tell and listen to bowhunting stories!!!
There's some great posts on this thread.
As a young guy who just renewed my membership last month for the first time, I appreciate the guys that have come before me and what they've done for bowhunting. Every time I hunt an archery season, I reflect on what's been done to make that a possibility for me and future bowhunters. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and tradition that's already in place and at my fingertips which allows me to engage my passion of bowhunting, all of it available on the backs of guys that have come before me.
As a young guy to the older guys, I'd say thanks and that they don't have to worry about bowhunting and the Club, even as both change in the 21st century. The chase is alive and well and us younger guys feel it just the same.
I agree with what a lot that has been said in the above posts. Kurt has a seasoned perspective that I tend to agree with. Agree that the recent changes are good, agree to the future of bowhunting etc.
But to get thread question answered?? So far tiered membership allows a person to get knowledgable of the club and that the club is afraid of antis getting in and influencing the vote. If this is the only reason then I think that the board should review membership levels. Hard to take on so much but since they are making improvements, at least entertain the subject. The hardest requirement for me to comprehend is the species requirement. Not sure why a person has to kill different species to be relevant.
One requirement that helps advancement is that one can take steps to be a qualified measurer. Lots of discussion amongst my friends here. We feel that measurers are vitally important to the club and that there is little incentive to become one other than becoming one in good faith so to speak and or to help advancement. Measurers sacrifice lots of time and money in order to score animals. At least consider possible ways to help them(free entries, free or discounted conventions). Just another topic to think about and distract from the original thread topic. haha.
I understand why the different levels were established. The desire was to preserve the Club's vision and tradition and to make it tough for new members to quickly effect change to that vision and tradition. This system does allow for change - over time - which is what we are seeing now with the new leadership. However, I am not sure how the 14 year minimum requirement was selected. It seems long for me. I would be in favor or reducing the 14 year minimum - maybe to five years. After five years, you will have come to appreciate the tradition and if you have maintained your membership and participation, well then you deserve a say in things. Whether we like it or not, times change and change dictates that the Club changes or it eventually will become a club of old guys who at some point will no longer exist. As to the difference in membership level costs, I guess that I understand that to a point as well. The old guys should shoulder more of the burden than the younger guys. I am Ok with that. I do think that those who have become life associates should benefit in some way from their investment should they choose to become regular members, though. I also understand the need for revenue, but I worry about how the Club takes on revenue from the industry. I think we need to be very careful in that regard. I believe that the Club's membership is the lifeblood of the industry - PERIOD. For that reason, it is in the industry's best interest to give back - without expecting much in immediate return. I would hate to see the Club become a shill for the more affluent manufacturers. My two cents.
Mad trapper. The 14 years was recently reduced to 10 years for regular membership. It's one of the changes the new leadership pushed.
Its a simple "CASTE" system. Good intentions but bad effects. As long as the "right" people are in power it works well. Much like a dictatership. P&Y has been "exclusive" for many years, now recently upper management has changed and an movement to be more "inclusive" has started. It remains to be seen how effective this new movement is or will be.
Its a difficult to manage a club of any kind. I think it could be done better than what it is but thats just my opinion. I'm famous for always trying to build a better mouse trap...Mike
Exclusive is probably the reason. I may just try to advance after all. IDK. I have enough animals anyway. lol I agree good things are happening.
The thing I personally struggle with most on the membership levels, is the Life Associate membership. (Like Mad Trapper brought up) Before I realized how all of this worked I paid a Life Associate Membership. Now, if I choose to advance to "regular" membership, my Life Associate just "goes away" without regard to the life membership fee I paid. As long as policy remains this way, I'm not really excited to advance to the next level.
Kota-man. I sent you a PM explaining how it is actually close to a wash! If you satisfied the volunteer, mentoring and club involvement you could be eligible in 10 years! C
No way he has enough animals....JK For most upper level members that are so "committed" it is probably not a money thing as far as per year fee. I bet most at these upper levels contribute even more than what a yearly fee would be via different avenues. For beginning members the higher fee per year is not very good incentive to want to strive for higher level membership, probably reason for some to remain lower and not have a vote.
You're right Ned, I'll have to kill something this fall to be eligible. :) Like I told Charlie, I paid an annual Associate Membership for several years, before finally just deciding to pay a Life Associate. Then, they change the rules, so I'm eligible now for Regular Membership, a couple years after paying the Lifetime Associate. Not a big deal, I've spent $500 in worse ways I guess, but I do like paying my Conservation Memberships as "Lifetime". (Wild Sheep, NRA, P&Y and NDBA.) I will "ponder" and decide...No hurry I guess...
They have lifetime regular/sr membership now if I remember right.
I was going to wait until I was 65 for the discount rate.....assuming I am still around of course!
From what I've heard.. There is a 10year waiting period, a volunteer activity requirement and a certain number of species harvested to be eligible to become a regular voting member. Do you need to wait until a regular member spot is available too? Like above, I'm a life associate member and I don't see or haven't seen a clear explanation. I'm not sure why the club club has this type of system but I support and think the club is great and doing some great things. I'm eager to visit the museum someday too
How do you guys know how long you've been a member, just from memory? Didn't see that info in the "MyMembership" section on the website.
Db1: No limit at all to Regular Members. See my first post up top which refers you to the P &Y website where every Membership level is described and defined! Good luck! C
Sticksender: Email or call the home office and they will tell you. The original certificate I got when I joined had my date on it.
The link will take you to the various levels of membership and the requirements of each. I'm just a general member at this point and just renewed my membership. My kids are all youth members. I think the tiered membership levels vests the interest of the regular members in the future of the club. I was personally very pleased with some of the more recent changes even though I don't employ many if any in my bowhunting pursuits. The bottom line for me is that the club supports archery and attempts to advance the enjoymeny of archery for youth across the country. That is our future as Charlie said so well above. I'll continue to support the club as long as I'm able. Maybe in a few years I'll qualify for "regular" membership and I'll choose to pursue it. I certainly wish I would have been able to meet the convention requirement this year! It looks outstanding!
I do have a question for some of the regular members...What does the "mentoring" requirement mean exactly? I've introduced several youth to bowhunting and have helped a couple adults start bowhunting as well. Is this "mentoring"?
Brotsky: Mentoring can be done in many ways from helping your kids, friends or other involvement locally. Almost anything where you give your time to help others get involved in bow hunting. Here is a page from the website that shows some of the ways to get involved at the club level. I was fortunate to go to Montana a few years back to the Jack Creek Foundations "Kids Camp" and mentor there. It's listed on the attached!
Florida Mike, in the "caste" system of India, the "gods" decide which level you are born into and distribute souls accordingly. As you are thus born into a distinct level of humans, you can not advance to a higher level.
This is obviously nothing more than a tool for social control by a group of elite using religion to keep their elite status and is a very poor analogy to the Club, wherein everyone starts at the same level and advancement is equally available to all members by the same set of rules.
Ironically, my wife is making venison curry for dinner.
I was an Assc Member for a long time. Never really thought about applying for Regular Membershp. I was happy to pay my dues and support the Club and get the magazine for that nominal fee. I never aspired to be a Regular Member. About 10 years ago, two crusty old P&Y hands (Glenn Hisey and Jack Frost) encouraged me to make application.
I did, and I was accepted. Now I get the same magazine for $100 more per year! I'm not particularly active nor do I attend conventions. Due to a shoulder injury that prevents me from practicing as much as I should to have hunting accuracy, I hardly ever even bowhunt any more.
It's just my way to contribute. But I must say, it IS also an honor.
Pete
The Senior was made to move Regular members up to make room for Associates to move to Regular membership. Regulars had a cap of 200 members. And some one had to die of quit to open up a Regular membership. So Senior came up. When you go to a convention you can't tell who is what unless you ask. Even age is is not a given to the level of your membership. With no cap on regulars members there will not be many new seniors.
Like Dan said, age is not a factor in this. I was the club's youngest regular member when I advanced to regular membership. I was still in my 20s. I will be eligible for senior membership in a couple years and hope to advance and be the youngest senior member (for a short time). I also agree with Pete the it IS an honor to advance. It does make for an expensive magazine subscription though :)
I think the different levels are a great thing,they show a commitment to both the sport as well as the club.
I have to admit I was one who voted against the change of years needed to advance to regular membership.I looked at the time it took to achieve regular and senior membership as an investment. For several years now all I needed for senior membership was to attend a second convention. I think of senior membership as an honor not a chore as some make it sound like to some degree.A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to take a buck that was invited to this years banquet. I had a decision to make either go to the banquet and become eligible for senior membership or send the buck in to be honored...for me it was an easy decision.
"This is obviously nothing more than a tool for social control by a group of elite,IKE"
That was my point. I never said the analogy fit perfectly, LOL.
When I went to my first P&Y convention my impression was that of; this is an exclusion organization that is political and pushing certain agendas. I heard the new leadership is trying to change that perception. We will see. I for one am glad to see the club is trying to improve. Mike
