One Thing That Shrank Your Groups???
Equipment
Working on increasing my effective distance. I am currently shooting from 40 yards and can put eight out of ten arrows in a ten inch circle. Most of them are in a six-eight inch circle, but I always have a few fliers.
What do you do that allowed you to tighten up your groups?
mark the crap arrows and fix. there always seems to be some wild arrows. and 40yrds is far, smaller peep, smaller pins. and a Hoyt, to star with
Concentrate on form....if the first arrow is in the bullseye I don't worry about the groups anymore. I never have a live animal stand around to let me shoot my whole quiver full of arrows at them anyway :)
I assume you're shooting a compound?
The one thing that did it for me was shooting 8,000 arrows a year for a couple years from max to 20+ yards past what I wanted my effective distance to be.
No offense Bill, but 8 out of 10 arrows inside a 3 inch circle at 40 yards is a reasonable goal with a compound, IMO.
Is your rig tuned?
Properly tuned bow, cams etc. I fletched my arrows to give more spin and it helped out. Practice shooting at smaller targets at 40 yds like a turkey head. Learn your bow and understand how to tune it yourself.
For me it was adding a longer dovetail and always repeat my motto while shooting...focus, flloat, follow thru!!
The number one thing I did was run the string touching the tip of my nose. That was the single most important change I made that made my group size cut in half.
Don't over bow yourself thinking that you have to shoot 70 pounds. 50 pounds is plenty for deer size animals. Make sure you have the proper draw length. Too many archers over draw their bows trying to get speed.
Instant, as in screw it on and shrink groups? A real stabilizer like a B Stinger type. Not a rubber baby buggy bumper for damping vibration.
Good advice above as well. Lots of things to work on to shoot better.
My latest "one thing" that made archery fun again was as simple as putting on a pair of glasses.... (OK, after having gone through all that stuff like having my eyes checked, etc.etc..... Could have bought another bow with what it cost in the end but I wouldn't have been able to shoot it any better no matter how cool the new bow was....
Two things that really helped me:
Blind bale shooting at five yards with my eyes closed to concentrate on form, proper release, and follow-through.
Looking at my bubble level and settling before starting the release process. A tiny bit of cant makes a huge difference at longer ranges.
Mathews NoCam did it for me!
If I had to pick one it would be focusing on the target.....not the pin (especially helpful at longer distances). The pin should be seen, but not looked at....this REALLY help steady your hold and increase consistancy.
form form form even if it is not perfect just do it time after time . Most rigs are not tuned , tuned rigs just about shoot themselves .
Instead of playing golf !!:> go to as many 3d shoots as u can this forces u to pick a spot instead of shooting at a dot .
Form. Learning proper shot execution. Learning to shoot with back tension. Learning how to REALLY tune your equipment. I've been hunting with a 36"ata 7" brace Hoyt target bow that is very forgiving but still has great speed. I'm also running a 10" B Stinger up front and an 8" on a side bar that really aids in shrinking my pin float at full draw. These things have improved my shooting ten fold. My fixed blade broadheads hit right on with my field points and my on game accuracy has improved greatly. Along with my confidence! Best of luck on improving your shooting!
The best thing I have done to shrink my groups at 40 yards is to practice at 80 and 90. I am not a great shot at 80 and 90 but if you shoot a lot at those distances you will get better but when you move to 40 it looks like you are standing on top of the target.
Shortening my draw length and some form coaching
Thanks for the responses. To answer some of your questions.
I am shooting a compound. It is set at 62 pounds. My rig was set up by the local archery shop. The owner is a competitive shooter that travels all over the country, so I am confident that the bow is set up properly. From what I can tell, the problem is the shooter. :)
I have my arrows numbered, and there is not a consistent flier. I just added a 10" stabilizer with a 4 ounce weight on the end. I also have a wrist sling. I check the bubble on my sight and make myself count to five before pulling the trigger on the release.
I am a member of a local 3D club and try to shoot at least once a week. I also try to shoot out in the yard three or four times a week. My intent is to keep moving back ten yards at a time until I get out past 60-70 yards and can still put the arrows in a 10" target.
I am firm believer in the addage, "perfect practice makes perfect", so can anyone recommend a link to a source that would teach me "proper form".
This from Bowfreak
"The best thing I have done to shrink my groups at 40 yards is to practice at 80 and 90. I am not a great shot at 80 and 90 but if you shoot a lot at those distances you will get better but when you move to 40 it looks like you are standing on top of the target."
If your tune, arrows, and form are good enough to hit a 3x3 block or bag target every time at 100 yards you will stack arrows at normal hunting distances. Just do not get sloppy at the shorter distances!!!!
5 seconds is a long long time!
Blind baled for 30 days to retrain my muscle memory. Shoot a back tension or pull through release. Use a single pin.
I owned and successfully operated a pro shop for 17 years sold Pse Marthews Hoyt and others. We found hand placement on the grip must be consistent, another great factor is the bow is nothing more than a tool that delivers the arrow and if your a good carpenter you have your favorite tools like your special hammer or you favorite saw. your bow must be tuned to you not the fellow at the shop regardless of how good he shoots his muscle makeup is different than yours, learn to tune your bow for you and your groups will shrink immediately.
A back tension style release and then once I was comfortable with that, shooting long distance (up to 100 yards).
John Dudley has some good podcasts on the subject. Using a back tension release and focusing on form and shot execution rather than where the individual arrows go is what he seems to recommend.
Buy Bernie Pellerite's book, Idiot Proof Archery. It's a wealth of good, practical information. Bernie knows his stuff.
***your bow must be tuned to you***
Please explain or provide a link/source so that I can learn more.
*** John Dudley has some good podcasts on the subject*** and ***Buy Bernie Pellerite's book, Idiot Proof Archery.***
Thanks, I will check it out.
4 fingered release helped greatly.
Like joe said.. Practice out to 90-100yrds with a properly tuned bow and your 40yrd groups will get better. I also like the IQ sights - but any sight(in fact no sights) can work just fine.
Like joe said.. Practice out to 90-100yrds with a properly tuned bow and your 40yrd groups will get better. I also like the IQ sights - but any sight(in fact no sights) can work just fine.
All of the above are excellent. Not much missing. I suggest reading through the thread and listing the suggestions. Rank them according to how much you think of each one and how difficult or expensive each one will be to execute.
Only things I could add would be to get someone to video you shooting and view it compared to some known great shooters. Also consider a knowledgeable friend or proven coach. ( Not everyone who claims to be a coach is skilled at coaching. ) Shoot with some good and helpful shooters. I am thinking your biggest gains will come from form/vision issues rather than equipment. Most bows should shoot 1" per 10 yards to forty yards even if not perfectly tuned.
A lot of good information here. I did not see to make sure your draw length was appropriate. A lot of shooters used to shoot a draw length that was about 1 - 2 inches too long. That problem doesn't seem as widespread as it used to be, but it definitely still exists.
The other suggestion of the draw weight issue is very valid as well. I have seen lot's of guys who started with around 70 pounds as young men, then as they age, they reduce weight to around 60 pounds and seem to improve their shooting.
Then form, as well as shooting a well tuned bow. I have also found that arrows that are perfectly matched to the bow and to each other as well is pertinent.
But simply put, the correct draw length and draw weight can be significant in improving accuracy - given that they are off to some degree. If all of this is appropriate, then lots of practice. Good luck.
ToddT,
One thing that surprised me is that Larry Wise told me that most of the guys that he coached with draw length issues were actually shooting draw lengths that were too short.
Practicing only with fixed blade broadheads, not field points. This forces me to maintain all of the subtle aspects of proper shooting form.
What exact bow model are you shooting? What exact rest are you shooting? What is your DL? What exact arrows-brand, spine, length, tip weight and fletch? What exact release? What stabilizer is on your bow? What sight? Are you shooting a peep?
You should know the answer to all that without looking. If you want to accurately shoot long distance each little thing will add up, and quality (usually more expensive) starts to make a difference.
but most important- How are you holding your bow and what material is the grip made out of?
Started shooting with both eyes open.
12 inch b stinger with a 11 wt
Adding a B Stinger. I was amazed at how much it improved my shooting.
With the groups and flyers you quote I think working with a coach on form will yield the best results with the least time investment. As much as you say you shoot, I doubt practice will help without sorting out some fundamentals.
I would not think this is primarily an equipment issue.
Thanks again for the helpful suggestions.
For the record, I am guessing on the size of my groups. I will get out the tape measure tonight. I just started shooting again a few months ago after a five-six year hiatus. First time with a compound, so I am looking for tips on what I can do to improve my accuracy and consistency.
Concentrating on holding the pin on the target until the arrow hits.
besides switching to a release...shooting at distances beyond 50 yards does the most to tighten my groups at distances under 50 yards.
Lots of great advice here.
As far as equipment goes (and not counting a well tuned bow...do some research and start doing your own) replacing my grip with a Dave's Torqueless grip helped me with torquing and hand position. I really like my B Stinger stabilizer, front and back.
I think archery is a lot like golf. I get enamoured with all the latest and greatest bows and gadgets but it all comes down to repeating proper form over and over. I can shoot ok but would always have the odd flyer or abnormal flight and didn't know why. What I have gradually figured out is that I was flinching (trigger panic) without even realizing it. I shortened my draw length down, got a new release that would allow me to shorten it to my first knuckle and started to blind bale shoot. This has helped a lot. I also like to shoot at longer distances to make it easier at shorter shots but you need good form or the longer shots just get very frustrating.
fastest way to get good at 40yds is shoot at 50yds,
not sure if your a hunter or target shooter but for me when I start getting close to my hunt, ill do my morning workout, either a hike or some sprints, then I get one shot at 50yds without resting, once I can consistently make that shot that is my effective range.
ill continue to practice anyway but those are mainly for strength and technique
I'll 2nd Bernie Pellerite's book "Idiotproof Archery". From how I shot before, to how I shoot now, is night and day!
"One Thing That Shrank Your Groups"???
Focus, and follow-thru (yeah, I know, that's two things)
That's just me ;)
Best of Luck, Jeff
Like others have said, I would maybe get some coaching on form and grip. . . .
I shoot almost every night through the summer, and it never ceases to amaze me how something as small as grip can have such a big impact at longer ranges.
I struggle with my grip especially, and have some form coaching sessions with an indoor shooter several times per year.
Besides shortening my too-long draw length, which I mentioned above, the form coaching from my friend has been absolutely priceless
Now, if I could only find somebody local to coach me on my instinctive recurve form, I'd be good to go :)
Bake
Stand closer to the target....
The more I practice the better I shoot. Some of that is getting in shooting shape, some of that the mental game, but there is no substitute for thousands of arrows launched downrange. You get a better instinctive idea of what you're doing wrong, a lot of times as soon as you do it.
Big difference for me from shooting in my back yard to joining a practice/3D league. My concentration went WAY UP when I was shooting for score compared to shooting 2-3 dozen arrows in my back yard.
Pick up the book "Understanding Winning Archery" by Al Henderson. That'll help.
Grip, center your peep and learn the proper technique of surprise release and good follow thru.
When I teach beginners those are the things they lack the most. Get those right an groups shrink.
Shooting from five yards with my eyes closed, form development. Squeeze till you get a surprise release, follow through. Practice, practice, practice.
For me it was follow through. I forgot about it 1 time, and it still haunts me.
Bowfreak, it seems that Larry Wise would definitely know. But for years, depending on how long you have been in archery, it seemed that everyone went straight to a 30 inch draw - a majority of bows at one time were in the 30 inch range and an archer had to take it to a bowtech, or be competent to work on their own bow to change this. They didn't bother taking a few measurements, and checking to see what was best for them. And from my observations, most need somewhere between 28 and 30. The only reason I can think of that he saw those shooting a draw length too short is that for a short time period, professionals beat it into many archers heads that they were shooting a draw length too long, and maybe they took it too far in the opposite direction, again without taking measurements, or at least understanding what good form looks like.
Regardless, a draw length too short or too long, even if it is only an inch either way, can have a negative impact on accuracy, I think we can all agree on that.
That is very interesting that Larry Wise said that, due to personally, I have never heard anyone suggest that the majority of archers shot a draw length that was too short for them. Maybe, and it is simply a guess, but maybe, the guys he dealt with, were trying everything they could to improve accuracy, and by the time they got to him, they had already went through the phase of shooting a draw length that was too long and had adjusted too much, but again, just a guess.
Can anyone suggest how to find a local coach?
I read all this and could not tell if you are shooting off the string with a release or shooting a "D-Loop"? If you aren't shooting a d-loop, that is one little thing that will improve your groups. Agree a lot to the "follow through"... Keep your eye on your spot, AFTER your release - through contact.
First thing to do is get a Hoyt! If you don't shoot one already... ;-) But seriously the best thing you can do is research how to execute a proper "archery shot" and then focus only on form, structure, and shot execution for at least a year. If you need some pointers on good shooting form, and structural set up, PM me and we can get you started...
I bought a Mathews ZXT. At 40 yards I can group arrows within 2 or 3 inches of each other.
Shooting at a 'spot' rather than a target...Just like on a animal!
ToddT,
I agree with you and I was shocked when he told me that because I have seen the same thing as you over the years. BUT that is really what he said.
As far as coaches....the name I have seen for NC is Les Wynne. I have ready he coached Levi Morgan so he probably is not too shabby.
Well my groups have improved overnight! I measured my target and the bull is 6" - not 8" as previously mentioned. Forget all the gadgets. All you need to reduce the size of your groups is a $5 tape measure.
Jokes aside, I worked hard on following through and noticed a big improvement in my groupings. I also noticed that when I did have a few fliers, they were stacked and tended to be in the same spot (4 o'clock). Gonna' keep working on a neutral grip and follow through and see where that takes me.
Jack - I am shooting a release and a d-loop.
Good luck and good shooting Bill
Do what r-man suggested and grade out your arrows. Linear distance magnifies imperceptible but marked variances in conformity and can really screw with results and confidence. That stated, an arrow that may be crap at 40 yards, may be fine at 20 and under so don't discard them. Merely mark them and prioritize accordingly.
Shooting better groups at a longer distance?
When shooting longer distances there are many variables involved.
Form, Grip, Torque, Bow Cant, Bow Tune, Release, Arrows,, your overall equipment etc. All or any one of a combination there of may be an issue, magnified by the shot distance.
However one of the most important but over looked problem when shooting long range (or any) distance is poor concentration!
Concentration on the shooting spot/target. "Aim Small, Miss Small" still holds true at any distance.
Seek out expert help for best (lasting) results.
Good luck
Back tension, and don't shoot at a large spot, shoot at a tiny dot, as small as you can make do with.
Spike, the question was asked "what one thing shrank your groups" and I was replying with what worked for me. Personally, I teach new shooters the blind bale method rather than the big bullseye. Ultimately its whatever works for you. Good shooting
