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It gets frustrating that they lease up great land that used to be available to the common folk, but then they also get in on the public ground which is usually the only spots regular Joes have left to hunt. Add in their ability to bring in large pack strings and camps, and they seem to eventually try to push out all the competition from blue collar guys. Don't want to be a squeaky wheel, and I'm an avid pro-capitalist, but sometimes it feels that they are like a disease invading every available area. JMHO........ (Again, who cares what we think. The almighty dollar will win every time)

Deerman... it is posted in the elk forums bro. I'm pretty sure the elk outfitters don't go hang stand in all the prime spots. doh!

I've hired outfitters for public land, and been messed up by outfitters on public land I was hunting.

If you think the packstrings are an advantage...hire one for your own use.

How is it different than the guy who has permission to hunt some great public property, but he still hits some favored public areas.

Isn't he messing up the DYI guy who only has access to public?

You seem like a cool guy, and I'm sure we would get along great. I also know you used to outfit here in Mt, so please don't take my comments personally. Don't want to paint with a broad brush. I know not all outfitters are equal. Some are great, some are a gigantic pain and have edged out the little man. I don't expect you to agree with me giving your aforementioned business as an outfitter, and that's fine, but we all have our opinions and this happens to be mine, based on a guy who lives here and has to work harder and harder every year to be successful due to increased intrusion on the areas I hunt.

Writer,

I do use my own animals, doesn't change a whole lot. My point is that my hunting partner and I have a lot less impact and pressure than an outfitter bringing through dozens upon dozens of people in a given area.

Furthermore, although they are certainly part of the public they also are using public land to run their private business. IMO that makes it different. Nothing I say or do will change your minds or whether or not they continue to have access to public land for profit of their business, but it also won't change the frustration I feel. Adjust and carry on is the name of the game these days, but it gets old to constantly have to re-adjust plans and spots because XYZ outfitter has moved in and changed the whole dynamic of a spot.

Some of the ones my group of friends have had dealings with have been pushy, and sometimes downright rude. Even to the point of trying to push deer from land they did not have access to back to their lease, and trying to lock up public access by intimidation and telling people who didn't know better that it was not open to the public.

(That same outfitter got a taste of his own medicine when one of my buddies flew his helicopter into the middle of the landlocked public land. My buddy said the look on his face was priceless)

That brings up another one of my problems with many outfitters in that there is thousands upon thousands of acres of public land, in this state alone, that has been locked up and made available only to outfitters because they have paid Joe farmer to not allow John Q Public to access the corner of their property that abuts the public land. Corner hopping is not legal here in MT and due to this many outfitters have the only access to a publicly owned entity. Yet I am supposed to be completely fine that they also encroach on the rest of the public land that isn't landlocked? C'mon....

Again not all are the same, or have the same impact, but many do. Not much can be done about it, but that doesn't mean I have to jump up and down for joy when a once great spot gets overrun with an outfitter and their clients, and pushes out those who don't have the same resources.

You don't have to agree, but that's my opinion regardless of whether anyone else agrees or not. Apparently the powers at be do not, so the struggle with ill feelings between guys like me and guys like them will continue.....

On the other hand, I have been told by a few outfitters that I was hunting on "their land" when I had the maps to prove them otherwise. Not a fun situation to be in when everybody is armed, but in the end it all worked good.

Mike

Adapt. Use the camps to your advantage. There are few "knowns" in hunting. Knowing where an outfitter is dropping people and the type of pressure that those types of hunters will apply to elk can work to your advantage. Go one to two miles from the camp to the nastiest drainage nearest the camp that the average guy who won't pack his own camp 2-5 miles in himself in the first place, wont go to.

All you have to do is figure out where Joe Part-Time-Hunter is going to push all the elk to.

This strategy worked great for us in WY two years ago when the unit we were in had GE images taken in Sept. You could see all the canvas wall tents from space. On a 10 day hunt, we were in to elk every day in 4 different spots from the truck. I scouted the unit in July and the outfitters were out there with chainsaws getting their spots ready. It really wasn't that hard.

I've also called outfitters in the off-season and just said, "look, I'm going to level with you. I'm going to hunt the unit DIY that you drop guys in during Sept. I'm thinking of hunting A, B, C, D, and E. Your guys don't want to see me and I don't want to see them. Where are you going to put people?" I've gotten a few outfitters to open up and even gotten good info out of them, asked them about water sources and what-not. They're usually really good people and they know these units like the back of their hand. I had one guy in WY not only tell me where all his camps were, but where his competitor's camps were. Saved me a phone call.

What is apples and oranges is comparing a one time out of state hunt to residents who have been consistently pushed out of their long time spots by outfitters. I already stated "Adjust and carry on is the name of the game these days", so I get what you're saying about using it to your advantage, but it doesn't change the harsh reality that has become epidemic in certain areas.

I know this is a hot button topic for both sides of the isle, but the OP stated "What you all think?"

What I have stated thus far is my thinks;)

I totally get what you're saying man. My backyard gets invaded too and it's frustrating. But it's public land. Outfitters get to use it just like National Geographic can come film a show on it just like a logger can come clear cut it.

My local spot once had a mountain bike race set up where I hunt. Between them setting up the paper arrows on every tree to the race and the cleanup, the entire area was destroyed for the entire archery season (deer). It sucks, but it's theirs too and there's not much you can do about it. My point was to make lemonade from lemons when you have no control over the situation.

Getting outfitters banned from public lands is never ever going to happen. Even if it was righteous and I don't think it is, I seriously doubt any ban would hold up in court.

Still, locking up public land by not allowing corner hopping is just discusting to me. The laws should be changed. But that's not what the thread is about.

I personally have a belief that use of public lands for private financial gain should be, in large part, prohibited. Especially if it begins to largely and directly affect others ability to enjoy it in a negative way. To me outfitters are much the same as ranchers who use public land for grazing benefits. Both bother me and I wish it wasn't allowed. There is often a sense of ownership and entitlement mentality that both have when using publicly owned land for their own private financial gain and benefit. A prime example was last year when the area I hunt was heavily and negatively affected due to a private ranch not getting their cattle out on time.

I know there are many who disagree and that's fine. I also know that it likely will never change. Regardless, I can still wish differently and hope for the day when the constant gobbling up of once good spots will cease. Hunting has become commercialized to seemingly irreversible levels, and I think outfitters have had a large part to play in that. I do wonder what kind of opportunities will be available to my son when he is my age. I'm sure I will get flamed for this and accused of having a sky is falling mentality. That's fine. I'm honest enough to admit that's how I feel. I am not trying to be a jerk to people like mule, but I have grown weary of having to make lemonade. I'm sure in the morning everyone will jump in on this thread and roast me, but I'll be busy hunting bears. Hopefully my bait hasn't got cut off by an outfitter like many of my other buddies this year, or had outfitter's hounds cut loose on my bait as often happens in that area.

Enjoy the popcorn fellas! ;)

"There is often a sense of ownership and entitlement mentality that both have when using publicly owned land for their own private financial gain and benefit."

I've seen this too and I agree 100%.

"Hunting has become commercialized to seemingly irreversible levels, and I think outfitters have had a large part to play in that."

I agree with the 1st part of that sentence, but you're getting into a chicken before the egg type question. I think the guy who hires the outfitter is what drove what you're ranting about. Anyone who holds a dollar bill out will always find someone that will stand up and take it. These outfitters wouldn't have a job if there wasn't someone paying them to do it. You're on the front lines in MT and the guy in front of you is the outfitter that's telling you that you no longer have access, but he's only acting as an agent for the guy that's hired him. The average outfitter probably wants you to have a good hunt too. It's the guy who's hired him that's paying for exclusive access or some inside info and closer access. In a way, the outfitter is just doing what he has to or what he's told. But the kicker is, the guy who's payed for that access, doesn't necessarily want to screw you either. He's just paying for something he wants.

But while that may be frustrating for the DIY guy and the local, it's not inherently malicious. The average guy who pays a guide to drop him in the woods doesn't think "I can't wait to get out there so I can f@$% some local guy." He's just going to have a good time and paying someone to make it more convenient or increase his odds.

I don't use guides, but I don't begrudge them or the people that use them. After all, I pay someone to make my bow and arrows. We all have our lines where we pay for convenience and where we draw that line is a personal decision.

You draw the line at public lands and I absolutely see your point of view.

I hunt DIY on public land for personal reasons. It's easy to begrudge the competition. I try to have pride without angst. It's not easy, but I think it's the way to go.

Just ask anyone who owns an archery shop. You are supposed to work on bows for the love of it and sell new ones at cost..... and work overtime during seasons....

I've used a guide once, it was required by law. Had a great hunt and a great adventure, made some lifelong friends as well. My two main hunting partners are guides. I'm the amateur.

Truckers do commerce on public roads. Taxis, tow trucks, etc. Roads built on public land and with public funds. Performing a service to folks very much the "public", as public as anyone else out there. But ones passion, how they see it as special... commercial use is evil... what? Why? Exactly what do you do for a living??? Why is it exempt?

Outfitters pay for their permits and licensing, same as truckers. Dollars earned are taxed, many other fees and such folks don't realize.

Places where it needs regulation are regulated. Others not so much.

IMO, the issue is there are those who have unscrupulous business practices. But then so do many other professions, from mechanics to doctors to priests.....

if i am going to spend money on an outfitter i want to get to places that weekend warriors can't get to. now there are situations where we are talking such huge or remote areas that others can't / don't go there even though they are not prohibited from doing so, but paying an outfitter to take you to a readily available and accessible area seems like a bum deal for the hunter.

The County I live in (having the largest elk herd in North America) is 78% Public Lands.

So- what is your opinion that Outfitters should only hunt on Private Property?

After going through the TBM chapter, that statement is weighty!

How is hiring an outfitter any different than a local hosting a group of friends that want to hunt the public lands? Many guys just don't have the time to properly select and scout an area to hunt. Especially if you live 1500 mile away! Some guys use outfitters because they want to learn how to hunt a certain animal.

With regards to going back and hunting the same locations that an outfitter has taken you too...that is an unethical practice. The outfitter has spent a lot of time and effort locating productive places to hunt. This is no different than taking a friend to your favorite honey hole and then going back the next weekend only to find your "friend" sitting at your honey hole with two of his friends.

For an outfitter to operate on Public land they must have the proper permits. This permit is offered by the governing agency. Forrest Service, BLM, State etc. In that permit it set term of use, days camps are allowed, number of animals used etc.

There are other issues brought up here which are also illegal. For example marking property as private when it is not, that is against the law. It is however hard to prove it was the outfitter. I have seen public land hunters mark land in order to keep others out as well.

As far as outfitters messing up the hunt, they know more about the animals, land and hunting than any one else. They manage their camps, numbers and hunters in order to keep the hunting good.

I have had far more public land hunters screw things up way worse than any outfitter. Be it driving in ATVs, Walking the wrong way into bedding areas, etc.

If you do not like it man up and become an outfitter and see what it is like trying to make a living hunting on public lands.

As long as the are providing a a hunt and not having a client sit in a hotel until a small army finds the bull the client wants. We know there are some practices that are not cool, but by in large outfitters are decent people wanting to make money.

Um, wouldn't the vast majority of the outfitters also be residents? And, usually long-time residents and hunters at that?

The land lock subject is a whole other can of worms. But a big point to be made would be that if you had permission to hunt the adjacent private land... you could hunt what was inaccessible to others.

As far as actual elk outfitting on public land.... many DIY guys forget to mention that they got there start on outfitted hunts. Also... there are lots of people who would like to hunt elk but just aren't prepared to do it on their own. They also aren't quite sure if they'll become elk junkies like some people do so they are wise .to hold off on investing a bunch of money into the gear to do a DIY hunt until they find out. In the meantime they want to give it a try and NOT on some cushy private ranch. They want to experience the real deal in the mountains. After all if they do decide to hunt on their own that is where they would end up. it just so happens that the mountains are public land.

Them thar hills are big pilgrims. So forget that Pa/Ohio mentality. There's plenty to go round. Unless you want to park and hunt without putting forth much effort. Then you may cross paths with others but you get out of it what you put into it.

Yu might think about using an outfitter camp, which can never move, to your advantage as well.

The outfitter told him it was a good area and he didn't hunt it, so they would probably be into elk and not bothered by anyone.

After backpacking in they found a camp of guys who'd been there the whole week before. They were a drop camp from that same outfitter. They'd been into elk the first few days, but ran them out and all the elk were gone. They hadn't seen any for days, and neither did my friend.

I used to guide for an outfitter. I know how the business works. No way would I share a spot I'd scouted and found elk. I'd rather take my chances.

Mike Bowsite Sponsor

Turns out he was an outfitter checking on the guys he "packed" in 3 hours. Told them not to hunt north (towards the road) because it was all private. After watching 2 or 3 groups of guys come by on foot everyday, they finally struck up a conversation and found out how close they were to the road. I'm guessing when he came to pack them out, they told him to skip the fake 3 hour ride and just take the trail north to the road 20 minutes. :^)

Hunting around outfitters can be good or bad. Its nice to be alone so you only have to worry about guys in your party effecting the elk, but there's a lot of folks sharing the woods. I really don't see guides and clients having any worse impact than a DIY group. Always have a plan B and C when your area gets too much pressure or has too few elk.

nice guys, taking clients in and out, shared info, and yes I also found elk......

all of us that use public land, must cherish it, must respect it, must care for it, like it was our own, because it is our own land. be courteous to fellow hunters and users. pick up trash, if you see it..

life is short, enjoy it, killing an elk is great, but its not the end of the world, if you do not get one, and have patience, if the other guys are in the next drainage, and bust your elk, it happens,

I have no problem paying the NR tag. The state manages the wildlife, and for the most part do a good job. It would be a nightmare, if they turned it over to the Feds.

I could move to WY or Colorado tomorrow if I wanted too, retired, and pretty well set up. but I would not want to leave the beloved UP, and N Wis, would miss Lake Superior country too much, all the lakes and streams,,,,,,,

Life is choices, out west is too crowded for me, but going out there to hunt, is always a treat,,,,,,

I heard from quite a few hunters, who hired guides, saying it was THEIR right be guided on public land.

Most didn't want to spend the money it takes to get heavy in to waterfowlling, but wanted to make sure they had their best chances on the days when the went.

Every year it's the same thing. Someone gets pissed and starts ranting about outfitters and corner jumping. If you don't like it, lease the land yourself. Then you can let everyone who wants to hunt the ranch and the landlocked land. It gets old listening to guys ranting about outfitters but know nothing about what it takes just to stay afloat in a very tough business...

In AZ and NM it is almost all wide open with outfitters running over the top of each other. In NM the Gila National Forest has over 90 permitted hunting outfitters.

In order to make a quality hunting experience for our clients it is becoming harder and harder to do so. The Forest Service proclaims it would restrict free enterprise to limit the outfitters. Maybe so, but there comes a time when something has to, or should be done.

If we call and say someone is riding dirt bikes where they shouldn't be they do nothing. If I pound a single nail into a tree... RIGHT NEXT TO THE 99 NAILS THE CATTLE RANCHER IS ALLOWED TO POUND IN.... they want to fine me and suspend my license. Heaven forbid I hide a piece of stovepipe under a pine tree. A few of those violations and they want to completely revoke my user permit. When the rancher leaves his animals on the mountain months later than he supposed to they do nothing. When those cows eat tons of my hay that I paid guys thousands to pack in I'm shit out of luck and he is not responsible to reimburse me for his actions and never faces any kind of penalties for over grazing. But if I run into a public hunter I tell him he can stop by even if nobody is in camp and help himself to a cup of coffee and warm up and if I am around I'll gladly pack an elk out for him. But for the most part the locals and the non residents hate me anyway. Oh yeah... outfitting is a bowl of cherries.

I have no regrets. I enjoyed every... well most, of the days up there. But I am damn sure glad I don't do it anymore. Having been in the trenches I can honestly say I feel sorry for public land elk outfitters. It is a labor of love not profit and you don't win any popularity contests in the process.

Now I'm a happy DIY camper. :-)

I will admit however, that I may have been a bit overzealous in stating my case. It's just that lately the outfitters I know of in the areas I hunt have made things difficult on me and my friends. I know not all are that way, and I don't begrudge a man his right to make a living. I should not have said it should be illegal. That was hasty and ill thought out, but I do grow very tired of the constant land grabbing of the ones in my area. Then you go to hunt public land, and just about the time you think you've found some solitude, they come through with a giant pack string and cut you off. I know they're not all bad, neither are their intentions always bad, but it just grows plain wearisome to try and compete with someone who has their livelihood in it. Unless you're inherently wealthy it's just about impossible to do, and it's very frustrating when they have much of the good private land leased up then also show up on the public as well. Then to top it off they have an attitude like you're the one who's intruding!

However, in the end I will say that what someone already stated is very true, it's usually other public land hunters that screw up a spot worse than any outfitter.

That all said I'm done with this thread. I've now been compared to TBM and said to have the "one of the most rediculous viewpoint on Bowsite". (Try using spell check next time) Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but you don't have to be a turd about it. Funny how folks with differing viewpoints like Idyll are taken much more to heart by people like me than others who have to result to bashing.

Peace Out.....

It's not that I agree or disagree with the complaint but it's the way it is and there's nothing that can be done about it.

In each group, outfitters, guides, sports, DIY hunters, land owners, there's good, bad and in between. Like any group of people.

Regardless of which group you fall in, don't go out of your way to be a Dick.

I think we should give HOV lanes to women so they don't aggravate me on the main roads.

If I run into another hunter I just ask "Do I know you from Bowsite?" If he says no I say "You dick what gives you the right to hunt here then?"

Lighten up deerslayer... it's all good.