I tell you 'I shot a nice 10 point whitetail'. You ask me 'how big is it'. I tell you 'it weighed 210 lbs'. You say 'I'm talking about the antlers dummy'(I have not entered it/been accepted into P&Y).
How would you like me to answer the question when you are looking for a measurement equivalent??
Personally, all I want is for them to tell me, "I shot a nice "x" point, then fill in any applicable adjectives. Big, dinky, wide, narrow, even, lots of kickers, or anything else that applies. Even if they tell me the "score", I take it with a grain of salt anyway. Funny how that "350 class" bull shrinks considerably when it's officially scored, or when you see it in person! ;-)
A P&Y animal is one that has been entered.
A "300 bull" that hasn't been taped is usually somewhere between 240 and 285 in real life.
Otherwise it is just trash talk and a "PENDING world record!"
Using the term "P&Y" should indicate that the trophy has been scored and entered as a legitimate fair chase archery kill.
I ask would you guys still enter your animals without hunter recognition ?
Yes most cant score correctly thats a fact, tapes get stretched thats also a fact. I once got a call 22 inch plus bear was killed i told my friend to tell his friends were they sure OHHH yes outfitter scored it , I green scored it 15 days after it was killed 19 inch plus A great bear but the hunter accused me of doing something wrong .Hunter then took his awesome blk bear skull and i heard tossed it away why cause in his mind he shot a giant ! bear turned out to be just another good one , Hunter put too much on the score. Same happened with a pair of whitetail hunters from iowa there 160 class netted upper 120s in there eyes once they knew the real score the bucks were junk lost total respect for the animal due to its lack of antlers .
So i ask would u still pay to enter a animal without hunters name next to the score .. In my opinion only the top 10 of each animal should have huters name next to it . who cares tony killed number 22,367 whitetail !!
Im sure we have all lied about measuments of some kind or another :>
Shame on me. I was a member before I ever had a animal to enter.
I guess I'm weird as I just happened to believe in and support the core beliefs of P&Y, before record book entry ever entered the equation.
B is the correct answer IMO Bou. I'm always amazed with yahoos who take all the "credit" of taking P&Y animals without going through the process.
You can say "might have been P&Y" you can say I shot a toad. You can say lots of things.... it's just talk, words, our president says lots of things.....
I't not P&Y until entered and measured.
As sticksender said: "Most hunters will simply describe bucks as say, a "140 class 8-pt", or a "low 150's 10-pt", or a bull as a "300-class 6x6". As the most universally-accepted measuring system, we know they mean B&C/P&Y inches. Although they're usually talking "gross" braggin' inches, and not a real score.
Using the term "P&Y" should indicate that the trophy has been scored and entered as a legitimate fair chase archery kill."
My point is dont let the final score tarnish the memory of the hunt .
Judging by your post, I'd say that's true.
If you have never had an animal scored and don't care about score, what prompted you to even open a thread titled "P&Y References"...much less respond to it?
Additionally, although less important, is the fact that many people over estimate the size of their trophies when using the B&C/P&Y measuring system.
These two facts combined are why many people, as is evedenced by this thread, object to referring to any animal as a "P&Y _____" including animals that are still alive or have not been entered.
The fact is, though, that many people use the term only to convey a size that they believe any North American big game animal happens to be, whenever they reference the animal.
So why mention it at all? Is there some added level of coolness by being elevated above those who do choose to officially score and enter animals.
I don't always enter my animals, but when I do, I know they are Pope and Young.
I support these clubs but only entered my first PY buck and a sheep the sheep i waited over a yr to score and was pressured by outfitter /guide to enter it. One can support these clubs without entering a critter a check is just fine!!!!
A P&Y elk is likely to score over 260" and under 360"
A B&C elk is over 360"
Most people telling me a story:
A P&Y elk means 240" to 280"
A B&C elk means 280"+
The Guiness Book of World Records also lists the name of the record holder. It's part of having a "record" at all: What was the record and who created the record?
Not posting the name of the record holder leaves the record incomplete and makes it no longer a record, but rather a statistic. Statistics are one of the positive aspects of keeping a record, but not the only one.
If you want to call into question the motivation for some people's entering animals as soley for the glory of men, then why do you trophy hunt? I've seen your pictures of mature animals on Bowsite.
For the experience of hunting them? That's what I'd guess. But then why post pictures?
Records are a part of trophy hunting, whether you like them or not. Some people don't agree with trophy hunting. In that case, disparage trophy hunting, not the records.
I don't understand being a trophy hunter, then disparaging the records thereof.
Everyone has their reasons for hunting how they like to do it. Just because someone enters their animal and someone else doesn't, doesn't take anything away from either hunter's experience afield, and thus, shouldn't imply anything about the hunter himself.
No one's a mind reader and no one walks even a single step in someone else's shoes.
Been hunting for over 30 yrs. when I can, and I bet I don't have half a dozen animals that would make Pope and Young.
Shot my first Elk this year (small one) and have no idea what he scored. Didn't care. It was the best hunt I've ever been a part of. That's my point.
Didn't mean to get everyone panties in a bunch.
I am in favor of the proposal to list gross score as supplemental, because that's how much bone or horn the animal actually grew.
So yes, I am interested in seeing who killed what, where, and when. For those who don't want to play, that's cool too. Talk about scores when describing animals so we know how much you are exaggerating when we see the rack, and know not to trust your judgment in the future. Just please don't denigrate the record keeping system or claim to have killed a "P&Y" this or that unless it was scored and entered.
I am certainly for that.
Guiness book is all about folks trying to out perform the other so its bragging rights .
Ike we all as humans like to brag and show off our accomplishment some show pics of hot GFs some show pictures of there rides its human nature .
Ike im not saying dont enter a critter to anybody but as humans we all are guilty of bragging showing off at one point . Chuck Adams is my idol grew up on him i think Adams held the number of total entries in PY over a hundred I look at Chuck in Awe at his archery record. All i asked if hunters name was not included would u still enter it Im curious ?
Ike have you ever scored for PY or BC ? Its been my sad experience that most hunters were not happy with there final scores . These hunters based there whole hunt on that final number which in fact takes away from why i bowhunt . This is of course only my experience first hand! I was there when our famous Jack Harris had his first buck scored, by Marc ,Jack was all smiles ,and so was I !
lOU i killed a 332 6/8 type BC bull last year :>
Dan im old school PY to the core ask Herm !!!
If Johnny NoCam tells me that, but didnt have it officially scored, then I figure it was probably 295.
Like the guy I caribou hunted with who killed a nice, but not record-caliber bull. I was there and put my hands on the rack. He was later telling everyone he killed a "Pope and Young" bull. I asked if he had it scored and he said no, but some guy saw it at his house in CO and said so. That's what I'm talking about.
P&Y serves as a great B.S. detector.
I see your point but don't agree.
Sure it's not a sport. And perhaps "trophy". Hunting is not the right term for what a lot of us do, but even many who would consider themselves meat hunters still wouldn't turn down a WR animal. Scoring animals can and does often times have nothing to do with dick waving.
There's guys out there that would enter the animals for their own satisfaction.
Keywadin, pav didn't say you started the thread. He said you opened it.
I can't tell you how many people I have interviewed who claimed to have s college degree or a certain required certification but in actuality didn't possess what they professed.
My point it if you claim it - prove it- let's see the paperwork and proof.
I agree with many - it is about the fun and the memories. A "trophy" is in the mind of the hunter. But don't claim something to be something it isn't. Some of my greatest trophies are animals taken on hunts that aren't even eligible for any type of record book scoring.
The purpose of names by entries is for recording purposes. It intent is not about bragging ( which is an ego mindset).
I even joined as slide member recently so I don't forget and have any lapses.
LOL - Go swim in the bay Charlie! Wish I was up by you striper fishing right now...
Ike the record keeping was started why !!! lou dont help him lol
Ps trivia the first whitetail in the PY book is from NY Westchester county i think 150 or so i forget the date .
All this talk makes me realize I have 4-5 racks I still need to get scored. I have been within an inch on every DIY score vs official but I have an elk that I come up with 343 and a BC scorer has at 350 and change.
You passing through Ohio Charlie? 3 hots and a cot. All you need is a measurers kit??
I know a handful of guys that if they say it is x inches class they are close. Regardless of whether it is official or not. Then there are those that aren't even close. To me it is just a reference. I guess a picture helps as well.
People came from miles around to see this deer in 1957. There were very few deer killed those days with archery equipment.
We sure have many wonderful opportunities today and many of these opportunities are because of the P&Y Club getting seasons approved many years ago!
Life is short! Train hard and hunt hard!
Rick M: 3 hits and a cot??? PM me your location if you're serious and I'll see if I can measure your animals!
Most experienced elk hunters were guessing 20-30" too high. Elk are difficult to estimate from photos anyhow.
I put this picture up on this thread to add a little perspective about the history of modern archery hunting in North America and the importance the P&Y Club played in getting seasons approved! We are now bow hunting in great times thanks to those founders and conservation efforts by trained biologists (the Morth American model). Now we should be concerned about the "next" generation! How do we do that? For me it's little things I can do locally to get people involved and Nationally it's to be a part of the P&Y Club!
I have never had any animal officially scored but I have measured quite a few of mine. I am confident that afew of my animals are p&y class but they have never been officially scored. I am also confident that I have a few wheelbarrow loads of racks that are good for knife handles. :)
PM sent.
Like Louis said, you and everyone else that had a father as a mentor are lucky. I came from a fishing family, nobody hunted. I learned by making mistakes, a lot of them:) I was fortunate that my parents put up with my passion.
Rick
My hunting partner and I have a phrase we use now.... we use it because so many times actually putting a tape on things doesn't add up the way you thought it would and you have to back trail your words.... so we quit guessing.... Now when asked how big you thought something was we say "Don't know, sure like to put a tape on him....." big smiles.....means a shooter for sure.
Speaking of tapes and measuring.... Did you know bear outfitter's scales all start at 300? heheheheh....
I used to date a hot fashion model (for real). Spectacular. She was Miss Colorado. Well not really, but she "would've been" Miss Colorado if she'd entered the pageant. She was featured in Playboy magazine. Well, not really, but she "could've been".
The Velcro gloves will still work. I'll leave it at that.
Please let the hunting season begin. Amen.
I've still never entered an animal. I used to not enter critters because I thought it represented something I didn't want to represent.... My attitude towards it has changed now, even though I still don't enter animals. I use the scoring system as a reference for people to understand the size of an animal I'm talking about.
One day I may enter a few or all of my animals, but I just don't see much of a point for entering them currently.
And City many people join P&Y because it represents the largest group representing bowhunters and our rights nationwide. Doesn't mean if we sign up we can't have an opinion about the future of the club. I was one of the few people who actually WOULDN'T join until some of the recent changes were made because I felt P&Y was purposefully segregating groups of bowhunters.
Why am I seeing her do the time warp again....
I have NY emblazoned on the back of my eyes..... poor lil sheep....
