Who uses rock climbing type harnesses instead of traditional tree harnesses/vests when tree stand hunting? Several of my buddies have switched. Would like to hear opinions on the pros and cons of both. Thanks!
I love mine. I won't ever go back. It's a lot lighter, cheaper cost, and never gets in the way. They are actually designed to fall and hang from and are much more comfortable when you do. I can also step off my stand to shoot around the tree, with my legs braced against the tree, much like a tree saddle.
The harnesses are for rock climbing. So yes, no "tree strap". HSS or standard safety rope/lifeline with prusic knot.
Pros:
No suspension trauma!, no rope in the way when shooting, you're facing the tree if you fall, Light weight, no neck scratching, don't have to cut holes in your coat, wear it under your bibs... .
Cons:
Hmmm? IDK... (1) doesn't work well when using it "linemans" style. But can in a pinch. (2) If you're "top-heavy" a RC harness might not be for you.
I can't think of the model but it's a black diamond. I make my own tree tether with climbing rope, Prussic knot and carabiner. Make sure everything is rated for climbing... Not something from the hardware store.
With skipmaster1, make sure everything is climbing rated. I'm going to use tubular climbing webbing this year. Light, easy to tie with simple knots, used in climbing for seats and tie offs. Not going to use a heavy, clanking carabiner this year, just knots.
1) Does a rock harness interfere with your jacket zipping/buttoning? Seems like it would create a heat loss gap at the bottom of the jacket
2) Has anyone ever seen anyone go straight off the front of a stand with one? It seems like it would jerk the snot out of you. I watched the video but he didn't simulate the front fall; at least not like I am envisioning.
I do hate how, with my 4 point harness, how I can't easily spin from left side of tree to right when facing into the tree. And sometimes I hunt facing the tree.
I have a rock climbing harness, but I still use my SOP harness while hunting. I use tension on my tether to keep me from falling... My balance isn't what it used to be, so I use my harness to keep me from falling in the first place. I adjust it on the tree so as I sit down, it tightens up. If I ever fall, I am at seat height. When I stand, have tension on my tether to help stabilize me. I like being able to completely turn around... with a rock climbing harness, you can't do that. Now I did replace my tether with climbing rope.
I was high-angle rescue certified, so I am use to being on rope and accustomed to climbing harnesses. I do like the front hook up for climbing, but for hunting in the stand, it is not for me.
Compared to the video I now have the rope secured to the tree at head height. You can still really turn around and still keep it free from interfering your shooting positions. Maybe not 360, but way easier to turn when facing the tree and switching sides.
You can position the rope over your shoulder when sitting, then it feels like a seat belt. I like it under my arm instead so its clear if I stand.
With the pursic knot it is easy to adjust the tension/slack.
As to the question about falling straight forward... Just like a full body harness, it is best if the slack is out of the rope when sitting. Plus it would roll you to the side the rope is on, can't go straight forward off the stand eally.
The jacket thing..... if your coat hangs over your butt, then yes it could let the cold in. If it stops at the top of your hips, then no. So somewhere in between. Definitely not a problem if you button your coat. The rope can exit at belly button height.
I said last year that I would expect rock climbing harness will be the majority in a few years.
If you buy one, it is more comfortable when it has the thin straps on the back side from the belt to the leg loops. It keeps the loops from falling down part way on your thigh and at the bottom of the butt, eespecially when walking to your stand.
I would also avoid one with a "belay loop" (grey loop in picture). You don't want to attach your caribener to that, they are not usually "fall rated" but intended to be used only when you are an anchor for a climbing partner.
I thought of a "Con". RC harnesses dont work as well if you need to use it as a linemans belt when hanging climbing sticks. It will work, but not as easily as the full body harness with built-in linemans loops. You could add that to a RC, however...
Ive been using one for many years now, and find it a whole lot more practical than the treestand safety harnesses that are sold. It is also a far more useful harness when hanging stands. The tree climbers harness is the same basic design just a bit heavier duty. Both are designed, out of necessity, to be actively worked from. I still haven't figured out why the treeestand harnesses attach you to the tree via a rope behind your head. I have had branches break under my feet and have fallen a few feet while doing tree work, and it is obvious to me why the safety line is attached to the front of you at your middle...it works, its easy to access and its easy to get yourself back to a safe position. The safety line attached to the front of my harness has never gotten in the way when shooting, it simply hangs against your torso, under your arm, and back toward the tree behind me.
I've had a Black Diamond climbing harness for about 20 years from my climbing days in Colorado. I use it when practice shooting from a stand in the yard, climb trees when I'm cutting and pruning on my property, etc.. Their easy to move around in and give a lot of freedom.
None of the harness types are perfect and they all have their negatives though. One of the issues with a climbing harness is that if for some reason you get turned upside down you may have a difficult time righting yourself. Typically not an issue for a 140lb guy like myself. But, if your a big guy and/or not in the greatest shape it can be dangerous and nearly impossible to right yourself. I've seen it happen. Because of the positioning of the life line on hunting style harness this can't happen.
Back in the day I have seen climbing harnesses with shoulder straps with the life line attachment on the front. I'm sure they're still made.
Whats dumb about the hunting harnesses is the lifeline being in the back of you. I understand the reasoning, but if and when you fall, it puts you in a hell of a fix with trying to get back around to the tree or platform if you happen to not have the tree strap positioned correctly, ie. a little low..
Anyway, like I said, they both have their pros and cons. To me it depends on your agility and how you can handle yourself up in the air that should drive your decision on this. Heck, some folks have no business in a tree period, harness or not.
For those of you who don't want to switch, that's fine. But please practice a self rescue. You need to know how to attach the compression relief straps. You also need them on your body, not in your pack. Same with your cell phone and knife!
Went to a version of the linemans belt from the get-go. Doubles as a climbing belt and a lot safer when used as a safety harness. I would go weith the rock climbing belt in a heartbeat.
My second year using a rock climbing harness. I have a strap that is rated in the thousand of pound in strength around the waist for my lineman belt loops fixed by velcro. I just bought from Backcountry Gear an ascender and 30 feet of rope to make up new ropes for going up the tree and while up in the tree. I have the pursic knot on one rope and the assender on the other.
I would agree with snapcrackpop's last comment and would add that if your using a climbing harness its important that its worn correct as well. The waist strap needs to be fastened above the hip bone and tight enough that if you do fall inverted that you can slip out of it. A plus to having shoulder straps.
I'll add a little insight here as I am a rock climber (and ice climber) first, and a bowhunter second. I've climbed all around the world, and travel frequently to climb.
What snapcrackpop said about the belay loop is incorrect. Any quality rock climbing harness will have a belay loop...literally 95% of rock climbing harnesses have them. The only ones that do not are the harnesses designed specifically for Boy Scout camps and that type of thing, and are absolutely of inferior quality. Furthermore, the belay loop is extremely strong and you should not worry about it ever breaking.
The nicest climbing harnesses you can buy are Arc'teryx harnesses. They are very lightweight, very thin, and super comfortable. You will pay a premium for them however. I do recommend that you purchase a harness with what are known as "speed adjust" buckles. This way you don't have to think about doubling back the webbing, etc.
If you want more options for attachment points, you could buy what is known as a Big Wall harness. These harnesses are made for multi-day climbs, for example up El Capitan in Yosemite. They are significantly bulkier (and again, more expensive) but they will have a rear haul-loop that is fully rated.
If Made in the USA is important to you, some US-based climbing companies that make harnesses are Misty Mountain (out of NC) and Yates (out of CA). Both make excellent products, and I own quite a bit of gear from both. Black Diamond also recently moved their production back to the US (Utah) from China.
All that said, you could certainly get away with a very light "glacier" style harness. The Couloir harness from Black Diamond is low-profile, light, and cheap. Its gear loops will not get in your way. The CAMP Air CR harness is another similar option.
The downside to climbing harnesses is that it is possible to flip upside down in them. A full body harness prevents this. If this is important to you, there are climbing chest harnesses that can be worn in conjunction with a typical climbing harness. Even with a chest harness, this will be much lighter and lower-profile than a harness that comes with your treestand.
I think what snapcrack said was accurate. This is straight from Black Diamond.
TYING IN Tie the climbing rope to your harness as shown in Figure 5, making sure that your knot includes the buckled waistbelt (a) and the crotch loop (b). FAILURE TO TIE IN CORRECTLY CAN RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH! NOTE: Always tie in to your harness directly; never tie in to the belay loop, haul loop, a gear loop or to a locking carabiner. Double-check your knot and buckle—ALWAYS! BELAYING AND RAPPELLING Belay and rappel devices should be attached to the belay loop with a locking biner as shown in Figure 6. NOTE: In a rescue situation we recommend clipping the locking rescue carabiner directly to the belay loop (c). A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3350 lbf ) of force.
While it is true that one should not tie directly to the belay loop for climbing purposes, this does not preclude harnesses with belay loops from being a good option. Additionally, the breaking strength of a belay loop is in excess of 5,000 lbs. For treestand applications, this is plenty to make me feel safe.
Overland is probably right about falling 3-4 feet from a tree stand. That belay loop is likely "strong enough". Its true that "quality" harnesses have a fall-rated belay loop. I lumped them all together for simplicity sake and a "cheap" $40 RC harness like mine is WAY more comfortable than the full body harnesses.
I just didn't want someone accidently cliping into the wrong loop in haste. Imagine what would happen if they clipped into just this bottom loop?
As to the "it is possible to flip upside down" comment.... I'd say VERY unlikely unless you are VERY overweight.
This is the safest way to tie-in if you have this style of harness.
Me personally, I'd rather clip into that big, obvious, red loop on that Edelweiss that I first posted. For ~$40. I will admit that I am not a rock climbing expert. Good luck. Be safe.
Okay you mathematicians, how much force is a 300lb guy going to generate in a 4 foot fall on a carabener attached to a 1" belay loop? LOL
Overland - I have a Couloir harness from Black Diamond, (glad you mentioned, make me feel better)... What knot do you to tie-in? Is overhand loop knot sufficient?
Why I ask, I'm not real experienced with knots and while afield in the dark, I have a hard time remembering some of the more complicated knots without looking at a diagram or video but always remember the simple overhand loop which been tying for years, and tie it to a carabener and snap over my belt and through the belay loop, but is this trustworthy?
The knot snapcrackpop posted is a figure 8 follow-through with a double-fisherman's backup. The figure 8 follow through is the standard rock climbing knot and is considered redundant - no need for the double-fisherman's backup, although it is a good way to deal with excess rope after tying the knot.
As far as what knot to tie, it depends how you are tying in. The figure-8 follow through is an excellent knot, but a simple overhand is very unlikely to ever fail in this application. To be slightly safer (and to keep thing super simple), try changing your overhand to a figure 8 on a bight.
No one mentioned it but I think an 8' rescue loop like safetreehunt sells is a good safety idea. It is made of the lighter prussic loop line, and if you keep it in a pocket and find yourself dangling from your harness, you can tie it to your lifeline with the prussic knot, and use it as a foot step to inchworm your way to the ground.
I went through the whole 'this knot, that knot, why not' experience before selecting a harness. A lot of research and knowing it would only ever be used for hunting led me to the Petzl Pandion.
I definitely didn't want padding anywhere. I didn't want wider thigh straps. I didn't want video-game colors. I wanted speed buckles for faster adjustment. I wanted minimal profile. I wanted a single clip-in attachment point and no knot-tying in the dark or with cold fingers. It all led me to the Pandion. The loop in front (top of belt) IS the tie or clip-in point. I use a good rated screw-gate carabiner from BD, Camp or Petzl. The harness basically is a no-thinker up in the tree. It's quiet and flexible...just about as slick as a harness gets for hunting in.
Don't use a belay loop to tie in...just don't. My harness doesn't have one and I consider that a plus for hunting. Belay loops are simply not intended for sudden fall arrest involving high-impact force. Would they work?...maybe. You could say the same for the dead branch you're about to step on.
How are these for walking in? Do you guys put them on at the truck or once you get to your stand? The one thing I don't like about chest harnesses is when you adjust the tension on the leg straps while standing, they tend to be somewhat snug when you sit down and it seems after a while, from standing and sitting, the tension on the leg straps loosen.
I'm 260#, 5' 8", but wouldn't consider myself top heavy. To me it makes much more sense to have the tether attached to the front, not only for safety sake, but also for shooting by not having it in the way of your shoulders and elbows.
One thing I never liked about full-body harnesses is how sitting and standing can cause the straps to move around a bit. Sitting tends to relax the fit, while standing tightens it up. No issues like that for me with the rock harness. Just be sure you wear the main belt high enough that it's past your hip bones, and that might be higher than a usual waistline. Don't over-tighten the thigh straps as that will cause the waist belt to work down over time.
I personally haven't had any trouble walking in my harness. For longer hikes I would put it in my pack and put it on at the tree. Incidentally and in case it was missed; almost all harnesses are step-in systems. You don't unclip belts and buckles...just step into it and pull up, then make any adjustments needed. My harness came with a nice small mesh bag to carry it in, and my tree rope/prussic loop fits in there too.
Actually, after looking at the way the Black Diamond chest harness attaches to the Speed harness, this would be the way to go. The two harnesses are separate, not connected like your standard treestand harness, and the rope passes through the chest harness giving you a free range of motion between chest and waist.
I was sold after seeing the video and the price. I just bought the Black Diamond Vario Speed and Chest harness off Amazon. Both pieces are about the cost of a full body harness that I can't stand wearing, unless I'm using it as a lineman's harness to hang a stand. I'm sure I could get by with just the Speed harness, but the Chest harness just adds that extra level of protection. The two pieces not being attached is huge as far as comfort goes.
Hopefully I'll get it just in time for my week off next week.
The PDF instructions for the Vario says to tie into the tie-in loop directly, not a locking carabiner, but in the Belaying and Rappelling section it says to attach belay and rappel devices to the tie-in loop with a locking carabiner.
I have a tree rope already with a carabiner, can't remember what harness it came with, but I should just be able to attach the carabiner to the tie-in loop. I don't see why I'd have to use a knot.
So is everyone attaching the tree strap to the front of the RC harness and then the strap goes under one armpit to the tree??
Will pretty much any carabiner style tree strap work (like the one that came with my loggy bayou harness or SOP) or do I need to buy something different for this?
tadpole, I don't recall the harness size I bought. I do know these things are made on the snug side to fit the crowd that usually buys them. I suggest you go XL and exchange if needed.
I drape the tree tether over my clavicle and shoulder. If I need, I can slip it under my arm for the shot. I strongly suggest anyone do a trial run by getting fully rigged in a treestand and shooting their bow in several scenarios. That's the best way to find any oddities and know what is preferred. I killed several deer last fall and was in my Petzl unit for all of them. I shoot a recurve, so tether placement is a bit more critical.
Bigwoods, yes & yes. Under the armpit/around your side or over the shoulder like a seatbelt when sitting. And yes a locking caribener. Aluminum ones are nice and light. But need a heavy duty/climbing rated one.
Blackbear62, Most likely you would wear it under snow bibs With the rope exiting through the bottom of the zipper. So no change in size needed for winter clothes.
My Black Diamond Various Speed harness just arrived. I'm 250# with a 40" waist and I was worried it wouldn't fit, since you have to step into it. It just fits and I can sinch the waist belt to have the recommended 3" of tag end. The shoulder harness is shipping from a different seller, so I don't know how it will fit. But I already like how this feels over a standard harness. I know it won't fit over my winter clothing, but will see how wearing it under feels. I don't wear bibs, but I wear the Day One high waist pants and may just put the rope under my coat and down the top of my pants. I obviously wouldn't use chest harness.
I foresee one of these companies marketing to hunters very shortly. I was wearing UA before they marketed to hunters and I would bet they sell more clothing to hunters then all other sports combined.
The company 20 FeetUp had a deal with Misty Mountain to market specifically to hunters. It had a magnet in the safety strap to keep it tight to your side. I think they tried it about 2 years too soon. That and hunters realized they didn't need a "Hunter specific" rock harness, so they had many choices, lots cheaper.
Thanks for the info SCP. I noticed Misty Mountain offers relatively large harnesses for us big guys, up to 56" waist sizes. The added room will allow for bulkier clothing. They're definitely the largest I've found.
Ok, too many posts to read them all but, are you guys using the rock climber harnesses with only climbing stands? My first thought was you're gonna clobber your ladder or climbing sick if you fall like the man in the video. That could leave a mark! I own 2 RC harnesses but, I'm sticking with my SOP. I keep the tether taught as I sit so you won't drop below the stand level, or swing around the tree. If the stand breaks I'll drop straight down as the connection point is centered above my stand. Also the prussic knot is always above my head as I climb so any mishap goin up results in a very short fall.
I like the climbng harness concept. Until last year, I used a treestand belt system! I put one belt under my armpits and then the short link to the tree belt. Had it set so that I felt a pull when I sat. If I fell, it wouldn't be any farther than the tether strap between the 2 belts. Used it that way for... decades!
Bought a Muddy treestand harness last year. Light weight, good quality... BUT, I still hate it. I see a climbing harness in my future!
Wow tonyo6302, thats way to complicating linky for me to understand...8^) but you have me thinking my aluminum carabeners are only rated for 2500 something or other... Hmmm, I'm only around 250 pounds, but makes me wonder if they're strong enough...
Bighurt, the lightest system will not likely be comfortable. I would say a Guidos Web tree seat and a one stick climbing method. Or 2 safety ropes with foot holds(slide one up, step, slide the other up, step. repeat).
Scrappy, I agree on the four feet thing. That was a worst case scenario.
ZBone, the 2500 rating is probably working weight, I imagine. Go online and see if they post the weight it breaks at.
I personally trust steel over aluminum, when it comes to safety.
Remember, guys, that most 4 pt Harnesses manufactured by Tree Stand companys, have a shock absorbing web sewn in that reduces that fall force.
As far as the Rock Climbing harnesses, I have not seen much discussion on the type of tether you should use. You definitely want a kernmantle dynamic rope, one that stretches and acts as a shock absorber.
Maybe snapcrackpop can give some recommendations, as the tether is just as important as the harness.
You can add a dynamic lanyard for $20-50 between the harness and safety rope. Cheaper if you make your own.
I weigh 180 and cannot imagine falling a "clean" 3 or 4 feet straight down. If I used a ladder or hang-on style stand it would be more convenient to have a lanyard for climbing up and down. You bigger guys might consider that lanyard, I don't need it in my climber.
That picture is my 14 year old with his rock harness and climber.
I measured my rope this morning. I had only 29" from the waist to the tree and it was horizontal because of a large fork in the tree. I prefer to attach about shoulder height for even less slack.
If I would fall, "deceleration" would start almost immediately because the rope would rotate me to face the tree. A 4 foot "free fall" would be VERY unlikely.
I confess every year I read a thread about someone dying from a fall and last year I thought well maybe if I buy a better harness I'll wear it. So I bought a SOP harness $130 or whatever, used it a few times, and this year I have used it exactly 0 times. I just HATE wearing the things. On dead quiet mornings, you can hear the movement, I hate the constriction and having something dangling by my neck and upper body which is where the bow and all the shooting happens. I don't believe I've ever killed a deer while wearing a harness to be brutally honest.
So, to help me out: When wearing clothing for -20 weather, do you put the RC harness on at the stand? I am typically walking 20-30 minutes to the stand so I hate having to put it on when leaving and have extra rope and crap dangling around my neck while walking in. The question was asked earlier about bibs and a RC harness - I couldn't find an answer in the thread. And do you find you hear movement when spinning around to shoot?
Thanks so much guys. I honestly would really like to use one, but I also find pack space limited. Cold Canadian weather, I carry in a Lone wolf and steps each and every sit, maybe a decoy, calls rattling antlers, extra clothing etc it all adds up. A harness with it's extra clinking and WEIGHT have been too much of an annoyance for me. I know I'm not the only guy out there that pulls off the stupidity of not wearing one for comfort.
APauls, I wear my harness under my bibs. The rope exits the bottom zipper (2 tab zipper). You can also wear it over. I put it on at the truck and leave it on cause it's comfortable to walk in.
No shoulder straps! No tether to scratch your neck. You don't have to unclip to put your coat on/off, binocular harness on/off, bibs on/off.
I promise you a RC harness is the most comfortable way to go!
You will always have a little noise of rope-on-bark, but it's minimal and you won't die! I don't get any harness noise.
Do you use a climber? Just the harness, locking caribener and a safety rope with prusic knot and you're done.
Ladder or hang on? Add a laynard between the harness and the life-line. Clipped in from ground up and back down.
You should add nylon loops to each side(very easy to do) to use as a lineman's style for going up. And ultimately have two safety ropes with prusic knots. One for the lineman's and one for attaching to the tree at the top. That way you are attached continuously. I'll add a YouTube link.
For the lineman's style I personally would just add 2 tubular webbing (strong nylon) loops to the side of my waist belt. But if I had this harness I'd do it as shown.
Also you don't need an "acender", they are nice, but a prusic knot will work. For hanging sticks and a stand I would have 2 ropes, one attached on the right and one on the left. This allows you to go over branches and switch from lineman's to safety rope without ever being unclipped. (getting on and off the stand is the most dangerous time)
***Any rope with a prusic or ascender should have a double knot tied in the tag end so it doesn't accidentally pull out***
I made the switch to a rock climbing harness some time ago. I've always used a doubled up piece of nylon rope I bought locally as the tether. I only weigh 155 pounds but have always thought I should look into a better rope for my tether. Can someone suggest a good rope (I read kernmantle dynamic) in this thread but have no idea what that is or what to look for. Living my whole life in Illinois some of the terms and things discussed here are foreign to me. Can you be specific about what rope to buy and where I may be able to get something like that by the foot?
Thanks Chad. I use a Lone Wolf alpha hang on and three LW sticks. I am thinking I might make a visit to MEC in the near future to pick one of these up. I know I can sell my SOP for most likely more than I'd pay for a RC harness. (Seeing as my SOP is essentially unused ;) It looks like the more expensive harnesses don't have metal on them which is what I'd want to get away from.
Funny thing - when you say "expensive RC harness" we're talking "average tree stand harness $." If I can truly find a way to do this that is comfortable, quiet, and doesn't require me to carry a whole bunch of extra crap and weight in I think the it really is invaluable. Also if it doesn't add much time to my setup. Currently setting up brand new in new trees costs me an extra legit 15 minutes or so, but I do have it down to a system. Getting down is in the 10-12 minute mark by the time I am walking out dressed down. I believe in being harnessed in, it can just be such a pain it takes away from the hunting which is the very reason I'm out there.
I just wish there was a RCH that had a rated lope on each side for a linesman's strap. I'm thinking one an be configured using tube webbing. I have the Petzl like kevin.
