I just wanted to post this up as it is something that I have been really trying to nail down. I had no idea as to how much it really affected accuracy and like many, I was unaware mine was incorrect. So I thought I would post this up in hope that it might help others who might have the same issue they are fighting or they have the issue and are unaware.
It is important to maintain bone to bone contact when shooting. This is what makes a steady sight picture, allows you to maintain form longer and fatigue less as there is little to no muscle involvement. Are you a person that the sight picture gets super jumpy on you when you try to shoot with aggressive back tension? Because of this you probably developed a passive shot, like me. Just sort of waiting for the shot to go off instead of making it happen. A soft front shoulder makes it hard for you to get your release to go off. As you are pulling on your release instead of the trigger being pulled you are actually moving the bow closer to you by scrunching your shoulder. This becomes even more difficult in stressful situations like when shooting at animals as we tend to be a little light on the trigger when stressed.
The front shoulder must be kept DOWN for optimal aiming and shot execution to happen. It is extremely common to see a high front shoulder when people are shooting bows. I think the main reason we see it is the average person does not raise their arm without raising their shoulder. This could be a flexibility issue, strength issue or simply ignorance as to the location of the shoulder. I actually did this last night in the mirror and my default way of raising my arm is to do it by raising my shoulder?
Below is a picture of an archer with a high front shoulder. He had actually posted this on a forum and was asking how to fix it.
Here is a picture of an archer with proper front shoulder placement:
I guess my untrained eye can't see the difference. Proper formed guy is obviously shooting uphill(or very long distance) but I can't see difference in shoulder. Proceed I'm always interested in learning more about form.
The method below is what is working for me. This was the easiest way for me to understand and practice how to keep it down. It took this from a post on AT. It had input from one of the really great archers here on Bowsite, C3.
Here are the steps and a great photo that shows it.
You can tell that you are doing this correctly by raising your arm while looking in the mirror.
To do this with my bow I think of scooping my bow arm up. I start out with my bow on my hip pointing down. I extend my arm pushing my shoulder out and down. I hold it, scoop up my arm and start my draw. I continue to hold it down. You will find that it does take some strengthening of muscles that you may not normally use for shooting.
It is extremely hard for me to see too at times. The easiest way to see it is to stand in a mirror with your shirt off and raiser your arm. More than likeley you will see your shoulder come up? If you follow the method on the photo above and raise your arm to where you see the acrominal notch visible it will be night and day obvious. You will also feel the difference no doubt.
Also...I always wondered why I had that dip in my arm past my shoulder....just like the guy in the first picture. With the shoulder down you won't get that pronounced dip. I finally figured it out with the help of a bunch of videos, forum posts, articles and shots that for some reason didn't hit behind my pin when I felt I made great shots. I haven't mastered fixing it but I have diagnosed it and now know when I do it correctly my sight picture clears up and my shots are stronger and actually hitting where I expect.
I have been working on this in my shot for a while and notice people when they are able to keep their front shoulder down. I noticed this most recently on Corey Jacobsen's recent elk video. This is an example of where the rubber meets the road and something that we all strive for and that is dead animals. The very first thing that popped into my mind on this video as this elk was coming in was the fact that Corey came to full draw and his shoulder was down. You can see how rock steady he is and it looks like he is frozen at full draw. In the video you can't perceive one iota of movement from his bow. The next thing that popped into my mind was that this elk was in serious trouble. I took a screenshot of this and even though his front shoulder is slightly obscured, you can see it is down and his arm is straight without the dip like the first guy.
I doubt Corey thought this would be something that would be discussed from his video considering the fact that it is some of the most awesome elk footage I have seen but IMHO....this is proof of a strong shot hitting where you are aiming.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when using correct form, your latissimus dorsi muscles will be activated and holding your shoulder down. If you are using a high shoulder, you are likely using your deltoid and trapezius muscles to stabilize your shoulder.
Good tip! Teaching my daughter and wife to shoot now. Only focusing on form at this point (don't even have sights on their bows yet). I also have them standing with a slightly open stance to align the arm and shoulder in the other plane. Really trying to start them off with as few bad habits as possible...and improve mine.
My shoulder muscles are so massive from 50 years of shooting that I don't have any "dip" anywhere.. I asked the college girl next door to look for the dip and all she wanted to do was rub my shoulders, before bringing out a couple margaritas.
Seriously, thanks for posting this. I need to work on it. 50 years of shooting trad (hunting style, not target style) with a "high" shoulder" is probably now biting me with my switch to a compound.
You are correct. What I found though is that I would start unknowingly with a high shoulder. My last could not overcome that and pull it down. I can however concentrate on starting with it down and my lat can do its job then.
Is this more of a problem with arm rotation and position than shoulder position? The reason I ask is that the guy in the first picture seems to have his elbow bent and bicep pointing towards 11:00. It's tough to tell with the long sleeves but if he straightens his arm and rotates his upper arm his shoulder should follow to a lower position.
I think that is part of it for sure. Some people don't have the flexibility to have their bicep point towards the bow. I am one of them. It is also something I work on. For me....when my shoulder is down the arrow hits behind the pin.
Grab the edge of a door and practice rotating your elbow until it becomes second nature. My first coach(back in early 90's) had me do this. It took about four months of steady practice. Now I can do it without anything in my hand to offer resistance.
I taught martial arts classes for years and what you are talking about is a very common teaching. You need to tighten your lats and that will pull the shoulder down where it belongs so you have bone to bone contact. Take your shirt off, stand in front of the mirror, hold your arms out in front, tighten your little finger and turn your elbows down and in towards your hips while tightening the muscles under your arms. These muscles you are using to do this motion is your lats. This will pull the shoulders into the proper position. Note what it looks like and what it feels like. Now you have to learn to "capture' that same feeling while raising the bow arm. If you are not used to this, it will take some time to learn how to do it at will. I have been shooting with the should down and lats tight for many many years. No doubt it makes you more stable. You need to learn how to do this with both shoulders, not just one. You also need to learn how to do this in a relaxed position, not a tense. There is also a hip position that will stabilize you more as well. Any trained martial artist who understands lats and hips knows how to do this. Once you learn how to do this, and it takes some time, you can completely relax and hold your bow in a drawn position for great lengths of time without muscle fatigue. If you remember the movie "the incredible hulk". when he would get upset or mad, he would do this movement, which would exaggerate his lats and pull his shoulder down. Try and imitate this movement to get the feel for what you are after. Then figure out how to transfer this feeling into your shooting, but relaxed.
I taught martial arts classes for years and what you are talking about is a very common teaching. You need to tighten your lats and that will pull the shoulder down where it belongs so you have bone to bone contact. Take your shirt off, stand in front of the mirror, hold your arms out in front, tighten your little finger and turn your elbows down and in towards your hips while tightening the muscles under your arms. These muscles you are using to do this motion is your lats. This will pull the shoulders into the proper position. Note what it looks like and what it feels like. Now you have to learn to "capture' that same feeling while raising the bow arm. If you are not used to this, it will take some time to learn how to do it at will. I have been shooting with the should down and lats tight for many many years. No doubt it makes you more stable. You need to learn how to do this with both shoulders, not just one. You also need to learn how to do this in a relaxed position, not a tense. There is also a hip position that will stabilize you more as well. Any trained martial artist who understands lats and hips knows how to do this. Once you learn how to do this, and it takes some time, you can completely relax and hold your bow in a drawn position for great lengths of time without muscle fatigue. If you remember the movie "the incredible hulk". when he would get upset or mad, he would do this movement, which would exaggerate his lats and pull his shoulder down. Try and imitate this movement to get the feel for what you are after. Then figure out how to transfer this feeling into your shooting, but relaxed.
I taught martial arts classes for years and what you are talking about is a very common teaching. You need to tighten your lats and that will pull the shoulder down where it belongs so you have bone to bone contact. Take your shirt off, stand in front of the mirror, hold your arms out in front, tighten your little finger and turn your elbows down and in towards your hips while tightening the muscles under your arms. These muscles you are using to do this motion is your lats. This will pull the shoulders into the proper position. Note what it looks like and what it feels like. Now you have to learn to "capture' that same feeling while raising the bow arm. If you are not used to this, it will take some time to learn how to do it at will. I have been shooting with the should down and lats tight for many many years. No doubt it makes you more stable. You need to learn how to do this with both shoulders, not just one. You also need to learn how to do this in a relaxed position, not a tense. There is also a hip position that will stabilize you more as well. Any trained martial artist who understands lats and hips knows how to do this. Once you learn how to do this, and it takes some time, you can completely relax and hold your bow in a drawn position for great lengths of time without muscle fatigue. If you remember the movie "the incredible hulk". when he would get upset or mad, he would do this movement, which would exaggerate his lats and pull his shoulder down. Try and imitate this movement to get the feel for what you are after. Then figure out how to transfer this feeling into your shooting, but relaxed.
I have been shooting scaled down target Vegas rounds in my basement. One thing that is becoming apparent is that I am able to easily keep my shoulder down on the bottom targets but when I have to move up to shoot the top middle target I lose bone to bone contact at time.
The Vegas face let's you know where you stand for sure. I am shooting mid 280s with 8-10x with my hunting bow. It is amazing that anyone is able to clean this target. Lol. My goal is to get in the 290s with 15x. Maybe that would translate to a 270 if I went to Vegas. :)
Join a spot league and you will be amazed at how much it will improve your shooting. About 12 years ago I decided to get serious about my bow hunting. I joined an indoor league to help. First thing I found out was that I was my Draw length was 1/1/2 long. Try to shoot 60 arrows that way and it will become pretty obvious. Bow arm position and grip were the next things that got corrected. The guys at the club were great and more that willing to teach me the correct way to shoot the bow. I went from shooting in the mid 260's to low 290's in 6 months.
The results of all that practice are evident come SEP.
Look at a shoulder model. The shoulder is a "ball in a spoon" joint. Now look at a hip model, it is a true "ball in a socket" joint. The shoulder drops in the socket 1st, as you reach up.
(Right hand shooters) With your left arm relaxed, stand in front of a mirror, place the right hand index finger finger on the point of the shoulder and the middle finger on the ball of the humerus. Now start to move your left hand away from your thigh about 6". Your left shoulder ball should drop (about 1/2") before the shoulder blade raises. That's the shoulder ball(upper arm) dropping in the socket so that the greater tubercle can go under the acromion arch.
They all look like their drawing arm elbows are too high. I always read and believed that there should be a straight horizontal level line from your bow hand, along your bow arm, then across the chest to the drawing hand and then on out to the end of that elbow. When you do this it makes it much easier to use the back shoulder muscles to "push" the bow hand forward throughout the shooting sequence to avoid the dreaded "collapse".
But most all of the release shooters I see have high drawing arm elbows. I also see a lot of them that don't bend at the waste either but just drop the bow arm when shooting downward.
As a stick shooter I work on my form a lot, because I've found that when my form is soild, then so is my shooting. And with the kind of bow I shoot form is about all I really have to adjust and tinker with, other than having a matched bow/arrow combo.
So why is it then that a lot of release shooters have a high elbow? And does it matter? Way back when I shot a compound I tried a release for about a month and went back to using my fingers. I just couldn't get used to it and it didn't feel right. So I really don't know much about using a release. Is a high elbow a natural adjustment to using a release?
I guess that for a finger shooter the elbow level is a bigger deal, because with fingers if your elbow is up that high the pressure of the string fingers is different and the release will be off, not to mention the flexion of the back muscles.
Maybe that's why I never felt comfortable with it.
That's why ya need a deer view mirror..... so you know if folks are sneakin' up behind ya and lookin' over your shoulder at work....
BTW... TOT only let you delete text i think.... pics seem to always stay behind. So if you want to post something that you know is gonna wick somebody off.... do it with a pic.... worth a thousand words so I'm told.... heheheheh....
If you start the draw low with bow arm pushing it puts the shoulder in correct position. Also the draw arm/shoulder should begin pulling from a low position, not a high position as many do. This puts both shoulders in the correct position.
