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Was the elk recovered?

What was the bow, the arrow wt, and the BH?

Maybe include moose experiences as well.

Second shot was poorly placed. I arrowed a Montana cow last September in nearly the exact same location. I had to finish her off the next morning.

Neither shot was good, only the second shot was mortal (obviously). There's always a little luck involved in hunting.

I think the only really poor decision the hunter made was to tuck his ears inside his ball cap.

He was shooting a Mathews Switchback or OUtback, with 125 grain G5 Montecs, and his bow was set to 60 lbs or so. Shot was about 19 yards

My only experience with blade hit elk

Arrow went in 1"............

The next shot I simply aimed back 6" and finished the bull. Put their toughness in perspective to me.

Over the years I've hit a couple others where the broadhead stuck, the arrow broke off, and the bull went on. Once I saw him two weeks later, with a slight limp.

I hit a big muley in the shoulder blade once, and he ran off with the arrow bobbing. Saw him again two weeks later in full rut, running a herd of does with a slight limp. A rifle hunter shot him the next season and recovered the broadhead, which had come unscrewed from the ferrule. It was healed up in a wad of scar tissue.

Equipment Hoyt Spyder 35 about 65 pounds Arrow weight around 425 BH was a slick trick 100 grain magnum

Called it in to about 10 yds but just as I was about to release it spooked and turned around and ran 10 yards. I shot and thought the hit was good. After discussing with my buddy who was sitting 25 yards away and watched it all he said not much penetration. Waited an hour and went to look for blood. Even though we could follow his track never found the arrow and no blood for 150 yards where we finally found a few drops here and there. Never found him.

Not sure it would have helped but this year I went to a 125 grain BH, added a weighted insert, and switched BH to something that I though would penetrate better....Magnus Black Hornet. Added weight didn't do anything to my accuracy and gave me more confidence. Good thing I didn't get to see if it worked better on a shoulder this year but it did kill a bull at 35 yards.

Bow's were recurve or longbow at about 63 pounds.

Twice the bull ran out to about 50 yards and bugled at me.

You'll hear of the occasional "one off" but I'm taking the house bet against you.

54 yds broadside hit right behind right shoulder. Arrow went thru ribs and hit off side humerus, shattering it into many many pieces and stopping arrow. Arrow total weight was same as above 410gr, head was again 100 gr rocket steelhead. Bow was a Mathews Switchback 68lb. Recovery was about 150 yds, like a 40 degrees slope. I think he did it in like 4 seconds.

These are the only ones I hint shoulder on.

ED

Joints and major bone on elk.... not good, have been lucky so far. Have a theory on scapula though. Heavy near the joint and on the tee is serious bone. Out into the paddle and I think much depends on if they have their weight on that leg or not. Those shoulders aren't anchored real solid and can give a great deal when hit, really sucks the energy out of the arrow. If they have weight on it things are much more solid and you have a better chance at good penetration.

Mostly observation on deer, I would imagine much the same on elk.... but worse....

Hit a monster (360+ class) - high and forward in the shoulder, quartering away - 45 yds - (2013). 20 mph crosswind that I didn't take into account. Also hugged the shoulder too tight, especially for a hard quartering away angle. It probably didn't help that he caught me off guard, and he was by far the biggest animal I have ever shot at. Arrow penetrated about 3", and I watched in horror as he ran up the hill with most of my 30" arroaw hanging out. Followed blood for 800 yds before running out. No doubt that bull lived to tell the tale.

Hoyt Vector - 82 lbs - 510 grain arrow (including B head)- 100 grain QAD exodus.

I'm quite positive with the spot I hit him, unless I was using a rifle no amount of force from an arrow would have killed him. I think given the angle I would have missed the goods no matter what. Still, it gave me pause to realize how tough heavily boned areas on an elk can be.

Now shooting a Hoyt Nitrum @ 30.5" draw, 82 lbs, 545 grain arrow (including broadhead), I've now switched to a 125 grain Viper Trick. Had good success so far....

I'm a believer.

I've seen 2 other bulls shot in the shoulder besides this one...the other 2 were 70# bow, 380gr and 400gr arrows, both were mech heads- lost both of those so of course no way to tell what happened.

I shot this dink on the last day of a Co 76 hunt. My buddy calling, this satellite came in fast. He was downhill at about 12 yds and the arrow went through him so fast and off into the woods below us so far we never found it. The bull just stood there looking around confused...then at about the 7 or 8 second mark he lunged forward and just fell over.

70# bow, 450gr arrow tapered coc head, love those tapered coc heads

So my buddy had this bull frontal at 6 steps...and instead of shooting that frontal...he waited for the bull to turn. Bad idea as they always turn faster than you think...[as he knows now!] so as this bull is whipping around he fires and catches the bull in the spine.... drops the bull right there...except for some squirming of course.

Worth noting, this bull was getting out of dodge moving very fast when the arrow struck and it didn't seem to inhibit penetration like with a mech head....65# bow, 430ish arrow with 125gr Fixed 2 blade [Phathead] that severed his spine.

So YES, I do think BH design matters...and a head that doesn't have to scissor [thin blades] open but enters effortlessly has proven to me many times its advantages.

The penetration is amazing, and the "S" cut and bone shattering capabilities of the single bevel dynamics have to be seen to be believed.

Seriously, check out Ed Ashby's reports...amazing stuff. That "little" 1-1/8" wide 2 blade does some serious damage. Oh yeah, flies like a dream too.

Teeton, you shoot "expendables"? Is that like diapers?

Back in the mid 90's I shot a bull in the shoulder with a 65# longbow, Easton PC carbons and a Magnus 1 two blade. Watched him run across a meadow and cross a crick for about a hundred yards, into thick timber and swamp land. Found him, but it was three years later. He fell into a sinkhole of sorts and wasn't too far from where I'd last seen him last, maybe 300 yards. Had to be within a couple feet and looking down into the hole to see him. The scapula had a clean two blade hole through it next to the ridge on the bone. The shot was probably a little over twenty yards, no blood was ever found.

That lower edge of the paddle is over 3/4" thick on an elk. It doesn't matter what poundage you shoot it's not going through.

2 - 3" inches higher and the bone is only 1/8" thick and with higher poundage setups, it's possible to get an arrow through it and the ribs to the lung.

I filmed an elk hunt this year and my buddies kid hit a nice 6x6 bull in the knuckle of the humerous. While both the end of the scapula and the head of the humerous were totally shattered, not one spec of bone or bullet entered the chest cavity. This was with a 7mm Mag and Hornady Super Performance bullets.

Elk bones up in the V are tough as nails and there ain't no arrow going through there no matter the poundage or arrow weight IMHO.

Cheers, Pete

70# 28" Gold tip 340s 125gr BH total weight around 335gr absolutly lethal

DJ

The rest of the story; I shot that bull after calling in a bull for my buddy on the same setup. There was probably 6 bulls bugling with the herd bull bedded not 70 yds from us in dark timber but he just wouldn't come in. My buddy shot a satellite [70# bow, 400gr arrow, rocket steelhead] then we switched places and he called for me and I shot that bull.

My bull died right there. We lost his which was a much bigger bull; zero blood so once we lost the track 1/2 mile away there was nothing we could do. He said 1/2 the arrow was sticking out on the shot.

He also lost another good bull on a 20yd shot on that hunt. We were following that bulls trail and spotted him limping away 1/2 mi across a meadow. We sprinted across [at 11,000'- arrgg] and then lost him in the timber though searched the rest of the day.

These kinds of experiences [and I've seen a few more] are why I say HOGWASH...to the guys shooting light setups with mech heads on elk.

I just did a necropsy on a mule deer that I hit too high and forward. It was from a tree stand, but the deer was up hill and just about level with me. He was standing broadside with both front legs about even. The BH cut the lower part (very lowest part of the scapula) near the joint and cut the "hook" part off (where it cradles the humerus) on entry. It hit the same place on the opposite shoulder blade on exit, but just left a nick. The wound channel was BARELY in the lung cavity. About 1" from the top and 1" from the front. Right up in the very top, front corner. Most of the shoulder blade is ABOVE that point. Obviously I recovered the deer. But not 'til after shooting it again in it's fourth bed after about a half hour. And no, I didn't push him. He would bed, then get up and walk a ways, then bed again. I watched him quietly from the tree stand for the first 3 beds.

If you hit any more than just the very bottom edge of the scapula, you go above the lungs (into the spine or "the void" ;-) ), unless the arrow deflects, or it's a downward, quartering to shot. An elk can go a long way with a high lung shot.

I have to mention Beendare's second photo. Not that I have anything against 2 blade BHs, but that was as much luck as BH choice. If that had hit that spot rotated 90 degrees, the results would most likely have been much different.

Here's a pic of the shot from this years bull. Exit was right behind the off side shoulder. He was straight broadside on the shot.

Yes, this was too far forward, but it was a double lung pass thru and he died within seconds in a few steps. Actually the fastest I've had a bull go down. You should absolutely stay away from the shoulder, but a well tuned bow matched with a good arrow and BH can go thru a lot.

Bow was a Mathews Switchback XT set at 70lbs. Arrow was a Wasp Boss 100grain on a Carbon Express Maxima Red 350 Total arrow weight was around 420grains

It's really hard to tell from photos like yours what the arrow actually penetrated. I'm not saying it didn't hit the shoulder blade, just that you can't tell what it did hit from the photo. And if it did exit BEHIND the offside shoulder, it wasn't broadside WHEN the arrow got there, or it deflected off something when it hit.

With all the anecdotal evidence in this thread, (including mine, but I KNOW that one is correct), I see no photos of penetrated shoulder blades. Maybe for good reason? What may look like a shoulder blade hit from the furry side, often isn't. For instance, this hit looks like it should have hit some shoulder structure (humerus). But that bull went only about 10 yards, and was down in about 5 seconds. Fastest elk kill I've ever seen. The arrow exited the off side.

Maybe I didn't explain it well but we were on a steep side hill and that bull came in about 8' below me--- the arrow exited dead center on the other side.

And yes, my buddy was incredibly lucky....it could have been a lot worse. BTW, that was a 2 blade with bleeders and its the thin bleeders that kept that BH from a complete pass through as the whole vertebrae was cracked.

Both heads got new blades and put back in quiver.

Hit him midline in the chest just as he twisted broadside...my only explanation is the shoulder blade dropped as he twisted. I did not recover him. I am guessing I got around 12 inches of penetration (about half the arrow). I'm pretty sure you can hear the shoulder blade "crack".

I was shooting a 65# Elite Pure, with Easton Aluminum 400 arrow, with a 125 Anarchy 2-blade head (single bevel).

Best of Luck, Jeff

The first was a 6x6 I killed in NM in 2008. I was shooting a 70 pound bow with 430-ish grain arrows and trophy taker shuttle-T broadheads. I arrowed the bull at 35 yards and he fell to the ground where he stood. I immediately put a second arrow through the heart.

The second bull was a 6x7 Tule I shot in CA in 2009. 70 pound bow and again with a shuttle-T broadhead. This bull was arrowed high in the shoulder at 11 yards and ran about 30 yards before going down.

I shot both of these bulls higher and slightly forward of where I would have preferred, obviously did the trick though. The penetration on both shots was enough to get the job done but the heavy bone slowed the arrow enough that I did not get a pass through.

Check out the movement with your birddog at home... just don't let em know you're sizing em up.... if done right he'll think you're petting him...

I can assure you there was a 1 1/2" hole right through the shoulder blade. I boned out the meat. Hunted there for many more weeks thru my son taking his bull and got to look at the shoulder bone every time I walked by it. I should have taken a pic. I wouldn't state it had if it hadn't. It literally blew a hole thru the scap.

FYI this bull was raking a tree broadside when I shot him so his exact leg/body positioning could have been moving slightly thus the exit position.

ElkNut1

Yes I felt bad. But not for the bull. I was happy for him. If I am going to not execute, the shoulder blade is better than too far back.

1990 Hoyt Pro Vantage Fast Flight. E Wheels. 66 lbs. 2315 arrows with Cabelas Pro Hunter Broadhead (125G)

That's true. That's why I qualified my statement with a standing animal.

"I arrowed the bull at 35 yards and he fell to the ground where he stood."

No doubt the BH penetrated the scapula and hit the spine ABOVE the lungs, stunning him. Dropping an elk with that shot is pretty much just luck. Without the quick follow up shot, he would probably would have recovered shortly and been long gone.

"...square in the blade at 100 yards with a muzzy..."

I hope he learns how to bow hunt.

elkocd: I believe you. I never said you can't kill an elk through the shoulder blade. It really depends on his posture, and your shot angle. Just that with a standing, broadside to quartering away shot, if you do hit it, you've screwed up the shot. Most scapula hits that don't seem to penetrate, and the elk is lost, is not always because they didn't get through the scapula. It's because there was nothing but bone (or meat) behind it. It just doesn't cover that much of the lungs, and then only high and forward.

The vid you posted; Something didn't sound right on that shot to me....sounded like you nicked a branch or something on the shot.

It looked like your arrow hit way up in the withers of that bull...

I attributed the "crack" to the scapula...however, I just looked at the video again, and you can clearly see his left rear hoof snap a branch after impact, that's what made the crack sound.

Best Wishes, Jeff

Shoulder shot on anything bigger than a Midwest WT is pretty predictable and elementary.

The guy who posted this knew that.

I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread already at some point, it's getting pretty long, but there is a huge variation in penetration potential depending on exactly where you hit the bull in the scapula. Parts of the paddle are relatively thin while others will stop any arrow/BH combination.

You pin the scap against the ribs on a broadside, and it's go no place to go. Hit a heavy portion of that bone at a quartering angle and about half of the impact goes into pushing a LARGE, heavy object sideways. Full weight on that leg, not so much an issue. No weight on the leg..... issues get compounded quickly.

Quartering-to, you can add in whether the shoulder blade is moving towards you (less bad) or away (worse). Quartering away, if you hit the near-side scap, you've already screwed the pooch.

But for that matter, you're better off making a double-lung hit at the bottom of an exhalation than when the lungs are fully inflated. There's an awful lot here that matters enough to make every hit unique, but generally not much we can do about it, other than training ourselves to back away from the shoulder. JMO, 3D targets are marked in a way that does bowhunters a HUGE disservice, but I'll save that rant for another thread....

One other thought...

PLEASE, can we stop talking about The Void as if it actually exists? Forward and high is a meat hit that missed the spine, which dips low into the chest cavity. Period. Even the 3D target manufacturers go that much right..

Sure looks to me like some people have killed with a scapula shot and some have not.

It just seems to me that if you have a chance at getting through it, that you're lowering your odds with a mechanical.

I shoot a 55# recurve with 420 grain arrow. The arrow is very well tuned and with a solid 200 grain VPA COC broadhead. Total of 620 grains.

I've shot two bull elk and one wild buffalo within the last couple of years with great penetration (not in the shoulder). I got cocky and decided that my setup would have to be good enough to penetrate a whitetail's shoulder.

So I intentionally shot a small whitetail at a distance of about 15 yards right in the center of the shoulder blade. Apparently it must have hit the spine of the scapula because the arrow turned on impact. The arrow was covered full length in blood but landed below the deer. The blood trail was sparse. Never found the deer.

But I learned an important lesson. My cockiness with having killed truly big game caused me to think that my setup would be effective on a little whitetail's shoulder. NEVER SHOOT ANY BIG GAME ANIMAL IN THE SHOULDER!!!

I Have to disagree because I miss judged the distance and put a rocky mountain snyper (3 blade mech head) in the spine a of a bull I shot several years ago. Put him down on the spot.

Ed

The relevant question is whether a big mechanical can fight clear through some meaningful amount of bone with all of its blades sufficiently sharp and intact to inflict immediately lethal damage inside the rib cage.

I don't know.... and I have no intention of doing any testing on live animals. I will stand by my earlier thought experiment (in which no animals were harmed!) and say that the odds of recovering an animal because that of that last 1/8" or 1/16" of reach by a single blade are unacceptably slim compared to the probability of losing one due to inadequate penetration and/or a structural failure.

Hitting the scapula in or close to the center of the blade is a lot different than being close to the edge.

GF,, Only stated that I have a vertebrae with a mech head that went thru. Like the pix that Beendare posted.

Ed

MarkU,, you posted "Teeton, you shoot "expendables"? Is that like diapers?"

Can you explain that comment to me??

Thanks Ed

Ed

Just curious as to the set-up there..... And is that a Snuffer? Maybe a Woodsman?

The COC Loyal will be surprised to see a head like that get stopped, but if you don't shatter the bone, then there is meaningful friction on the blades.... And a three-blade is going to have 50% more blade getting squeezed than an otherwise identical two.

That strikes me as just a REALLY tough hit. High and well forward of most of what you'd prefer to hit. One more reason for me to post a rant about 3D scoring rings...

Agree 100%, which is why I long ago stopped shooting 3D tournaments for score and started using tournaments for realistic hunting practice by aiming where I would in the field. My "score" consisted of the number of kills vs. wounds. To heck with the circles cast in at the Delta or McKenzie factory (especially for quartering or uphill/downhill shots).

The other arrow as mention went through both scapula and had around 6 inches out on the far side at the shot.

It is possible, but not intended at all...

i think a thread like this is a help to everyone....a study on ,"What if" and worth contemplating.

A lot of guys I know setup their equipment for the possibility of a poor shot location (remote chance of course- grin) and a successful outcome in that event. ...that is what an arrow on the heavier side and an efficient strong BH does for you...it gives you a better chance in a 'worst case' scenario.

My apologies to those that drank the "Throw an axe through them" advertising Kool Aid.

That is exactly what I have been advocating forever. A heavier, slower arrow that has more penetration potential gives a greater chance of a good outcome than a lighter, faster one. Also, there is very little, if any, advantage to a cutting diameter larger than about 1 1/4". There are two dimensions to every wound; cutting width, and length. Length is far more important. On a perfect hit, almost any BH will work. It's when something goes wrong that your equipment choices can make a real difference in the outcome. So if anything works when the shot goes well, why would't you try to increase good outcomes for when the shot doesn't go well?

Other advantage to a heavier slower arrow, is less bow and arrow noise. It also increases your confidence on those shots (steep downward, as when hunting from a tree stand) where you have to crowd the shoulder blade - or pass on the shot opportunity. In other words, most that shoot light and fast, do so to increase shot opportunities. When in reality, a heavy slower setup can actually increase shot opportunities in many situations.

bobinbend. Can you show us the point side of that BH?

Boy, there have been some real knock down drag outs over on Leatherwall on this subject.

Even though it's probably perceived as more towards trad setups, Ed Ashby's arrow lethality study has a ton of good info in it for all bowhunters. Most would be completely amazed at the results of some low poundage draw weights.

......probably energy levels substantially less than half of what most compounds deliver and yet can achieve greater penetration due to arrow/broadhead design.

I'm curious what your thinking or evidence is to back up that claim?

As to the 1 1/4" question....of course it will depend on the design. To the guys thinking wider is better; why not a 6" wide BH? That will be like throwing an axe through them right? grin

Well of course I'm being facetious as in BH design there is a tradeoff where blade angle plows vs sliding in...essentially the resistance causes a shallower wound. I think we see some of that now with guys using a light arrow and big mech head...its not enough inertia to make the BH work effectively.

Lots of tradeoffs in BH design...and when you are trying to collapse the lungs- our goal- a 1" cut will do the same as a 2" cut but with a higher likelihood of more depth or complete pass thru.

Elk are not deer, they don't live in a 40 acre woodlot. And will carry a liver/diaphragm/marginal lung shot a long long ways. They too die from those hits I know, but recovery becomes the issue.

I'm a disciple of the BB Church of the Golden V. Straight up the leg on dead broadside, maybe a touch back of centerline, but not much. I like the V in that when you hit it, things go down fast, often in sight, usually in hearing. But that also means you flirt with the bigger bones more.

On a two blade kick right now... the whole reason is, at least in my anecdotal experience, they perform noticeably better when bones do get hit. 3 blades tend to "stick" unless they can actually shatter the bone. Two blades seem to split better and not stick as much. I've busted through a fair number of deer bones and killed them, on the joints, etc. not so much.

Elk are certainly another matter, everything not just a little bigger or even twice as big, but on the order of 3 or 4 times as big. "Stay back from the shoulder".... well, "the shoulder" is a pretty big area and covers alot.... I do get the spirit of the advise.

But OTOH.... that Golden spot on elk is bigger too. So I'll still keep shooting there and just try and make sure that's where it goes.

Next thread might be "Who has hit farther back than they would like, was the elk recovered and what was the equipment used..." =D

Good post. As to your new thread idea you can just cut and paste my response, "I have not seen a shot on an animal where I wouldn't take 2 holes over bigger hole on just one side"

Going bigger than 1 1/4" ( let's say 1 1/4" vs. 2") makes sense only if you buy into the proposition that (absolute best case scenario) your marginal hit on a target about the size of a basketball would have been a killer if your shot had been just 3/8" less crappy.

It's the same mindset that was behind those enormous aluminum line-cutter shafts that were fat enough to store your cigars in them. Don't see them so much these days. Might even be a reason for that!

So you just have to ask yourself.... Does it make more sense to buy your insurance against tagging shoulder blade at 35 yards, or against a liver/paunch hit at 70?

Actually, that big bag of wet grass is about as good at stopping BHs as the scapula and it's a LOT bigger.

Lol, I like that term! I'm also a disciple. I had a string of 6 animals in a row drop in sight taking that shot and that included 2 elk.

Knock on wood, I've never had to deal with a scapula shot, but I'm willing to lose that animal with him living to see another day taking the forward shot in exchange for the fantastic results I've had with it. And it's apparent to me that you might get lucky and blast through the middle of it anyways.

Worst case scenario of BB's shot is the animal lives.

Worst case scenario of a shot farther back is the animal jumps the string, you hit guts, it takes off, you fret and worry for 8 hours, losing a day of hunting, then track an animal that you never find that ended up dying a terrible death somewhere it was never recovered.

This was a mature bull, probably 5 years old. He came in really hot...the kind you dream about all year long. Screaming and tearing the place up.

The scapula on a older bull is much larger, thicker than on a spike or raghorn.

It was a "gimmie" that I simply screwed up, 18 yards or so. What do I say, intimidating bull!

Shooting a 60 lb recurve, 560 grain arrow, WW BH, that I had filed off that skinny point.

On the 3 blade/2 blade thing. Think a bit out of the box here. YES, in the scapula situation the two blade will perform a little better, you may get an additional 2-3" of penetration, perhaps taking out one lung.

BUT that does not equate into a dead elk that you will ever recover. As we know they can go "forever" on one lung and may or may not die. By being a high hit, in that much bone, the blood trail, if any will be minimal. You won't find him.

And if you can't recover the animal, the world is pretty bleak.

On my scapula shot, I am confident the bull would have survived quite nicely. On ribs I have had no trouble getting full penetration and pass throughs.

I realize that I have defiled the god of more penetration is always better.

Fire Away! bob

Thanks for the additional info, also I shoot about the same weight arrow with a VPA 150 unvented 3 blade out of a 65# Hoyt CE. Seeing what you experienced gives me even more confidence that if I hit that spot, I would have no problem getting through it.

I never will understand why so many people believe that a .50 cal or larger bullet needs to expand AT ALL, let alone to the degree that the heavily hyped bullets do..... But I'm wrong-headed enough to be very happy shooting .54 roundball, so what do I know?

Not that I would shoot an Elk in the shoulder with one.

Or with a bow. Not intentionally, anyway. On the 3D targets, I usually hold right at 9:00 on the 10-ring or just a shade ahead of that when the target is set up just a bit quartering-to. Shooting single-string, I have no delusions about blasting through a blade like that - especially not on a big one. Volume increases as the cube of length, which means (as Bob mentioned) the mass you're thinking to shoot through on a big herd bull is exponentially greater than on his young nephew, the satellite.

I'm not yet completely sold on single-bevels, but they certainly can't hurt.

Moral of the story?

COC BHs have better penetration than mechanicals and muzzle loaders.

:)