Why hunters lose access
General Topic
Interested in what you would do in this situation?
My rancher friend who allows me to deer hunt let a couple guys in to turkey hunt, a neighbor and his friend. This rancher has a lot of land, but is "land poor". So each year he struggles to make the payments on operating debt due to cattle price fluctuations, weather, commodity prices, equipment breakdowns, etc..
Anyway, the two guys found a pair of GIANT muley bucks dead and locked together. They recovered the heads, still locked, and took them to show the rancher. The guy who found them, the neighbor's friend, went on and on about how many "thousands" of dollars he could get for these, what an awesome, valuable find it was, then drove away.
My rancher friend was livid, called me up to tell me about it, thought it was wrong to not offer to split the money with him. The guy was just probably excited and inconsiderate as a by-product of his excitement. But he will never be allowed to hunt there again because of this, and it sounds like the neighbor will be out, too.
This place has muleys, whitetails, pronghorns, coyotes, dove and duck hunting. Really a gem of a hunting spot.
What would you do? Offer to split the money? Take them and not say anything? Offer them to the rancher first?
Me, personally, I'd have offered it to the rancher (or at least a split).
He let them on there to turkey hunt, not to shed hunt, etc.
Did they also clear out any trash they found while hunting, or just "take" what was convenient and going to benefit them?
Just my 0.02
Do you really think they're worth "thousands?"
His land his rules. Unless it was legally hunted and tagged game how could the hunters consider the bucks theirs to take?
If hunting private ground for free keeping the landowner happy should be your main goal. These guys will get the message.
Hopefully this does not affect your future access there. The time is now for you to ensure that.
For me the antlers would have no value. I suspect that the land owner wouldn't value them either. The fact you exuberant friend gave them values is too bad. If he actually sells them he should give the landowner a share of his good fortune.
Huh. . . I've never even thought of such a thing. . .
I would hope that if I were the person who found the valuable item, that I would have the sense and decency to speak candidly with the landowner and try to come to some agreement as to how any compensation received should be split.
Should it be 50/50? Less? More?
I don't know. I would hope that I could talk to the landowner and come to an agreement, even if it was just a "broker fee"
I would take them and have have them boiled out and give it back to the landowner to display, sell, or toss in the trash at his discretion. No, they don't belong to the landowner just because they were on his land, but its the neighborly thing to do and a good way to show appreciation for permission to hunt.
I would have asked the rancher if he wanted them. If I new they were worth something and he didn't, I would have told him. I guess it all depends on how much you like the hunting spot and if you wanted to help him out.
I have been in a similar situation. I have found elk sheds on the property I have permission to turkey hunt on. I bring them to my neighbor and offer them to him. In this case the find is more unique, and a discussion with the landowner should have ensued to best determine what to do with them. After all, the guy had permission to turkey hunt, not remove anything he finds.
Ike, the guy who found them is an antler-trader, and they sounded like a pair of 190-class bucks from the rancher's description. The guy believed a locked set like that properly displayed would bring $4000
The rancher and I are best friends. He jokingly said he blames me because if I'd have drawn a tag last year I would have killed one of them, the other would would still be there for me this year, and this wouldn't have happened.
He likes antlers, just not hunting his own deer that he sees daily (I've taken him moose hunting and guided him, and we have good times). He would have put the locked skulls in his rock garden at the house with some other unique sheds and deadheads he has found.
Landowner should be given first option.
Offer them to the rancher
I think this shows the differences in people and in this case it went bad. Different rancher or different hunters...maybe a different outcome. If that rancher allows a deer hunter in and he kills an enormous buck..."this thing is going to be worth thousands and thousands of dollars!"...will the rancher be okay with that? I suspect money is the trigger to his anger. Fault the guy who turned his sporting opportunity into a financial opportunity and it bit him. I certainly see the rancher's viewpoint. Those racks weren't going anywhere and were theoretically his to find and keep or sell...not the turkey hunters'. They took what wasn't theirs to take and then boasted of the benefits to their host. Basic dumb greed and glee.
Overstepping boundaries is one of the prime ways hunters lose access. Push a landowner's buttons and you're out. Hunter greed, misbehavior and lack of complete respect is one of the biggest reasons property owners shut down to all hunting or become very selective about who gets in.
Then anything of value, found on someone else's property is not free for the taking, IMO. Unless he had specific permission to shed hunt.
Lou I think if he were to call a conservation officer and make a stink, his guest might be forced to give him the racks....... Not certain on Colorado law, but I'm thinking you need landowner permission to remove anything from private.
Similar case here a few years ago with a huge whitey deadhead. Farmer got it back.....
I would have given them to the rancher on the terms that I could bowhunt muleys there in November and throw that "other guy" out. ;-)
In Wisconsin, this would have been a game violation. The heads couldn't have been taken at all unless they had been tagged by a warden. Aside from that, in my opinion these heads should "belong" to the landowner. While they certainly were a public resource when alive, I think that the head and horns should become the property of the landowner.
Whether or not I was shed hunting, I probably would have picked up what I saw, went to the rancher and said "Hey, I found these out back, would you mind if I keep them? You are welcome to have them if you like." Any questions asked would be answered on the spot (where did you find them?, etc.) Specifically, in this case, I would have let him know that what I found was worth some cash if indeed I knew it was somewhat valuable.
Having said that, if I had any notion that the landowner wouldn't appreciate me picking up the sheds to begin with, I wouldn't.
I once found some antlers to a nice, but not huge, whitetail while I was bird hunting. We couldn't get a hold of the landowner when we left the field, so we left them on his front porch.
I would have a conversation ahead of time about antlers, and know what is expected. Hard to believe this was not discussed, spring turkey hunting and antler sheds? Finding something like that, I would want to donate somewhere everyone could view and appreciate. If someone wants to let me hunt on their property, first right of refusal will go to the land owner. However, I am not going to walk around and pick up all of his sheds I want in on the action too!
Me. I give them to the rancher...a good hunting spot and new friend is worth wayyy more than those antlers
They belong to the rancher unless state regs say otherwise. Similar circumstances regarding other finds have been upheld in court favoring the landowner.
Negoiating itself would cause a rif. They belong to the rancher.
I very seldom have an permission at all. But for spring turkey the 2 properties I have access too I clarified up front about dead heads and sheds. Ultimately they belonged to the land owner and he should of had first shot at keeping them etc.
Depending on the bucks, yes a locked set of larger deer can go for thousands to the right person.
It is sad and in my area virtually impossible to get access. I currently work out a trade for my 2 properties. If they need mechanic work done on a vehicle I at least come and consult. Fix for free if I can...
I'm a big fan of doing whatever I can for landowners especially good spots. From what I understand about hunting leases, and from your past descriptions of the spot, a valuable find like that is literally a gift in your lap to secure future permission. Future permission is worth more than $ to me.
Going to someone with a valuable like that and having a mature conversation about what to do with it will give you more points with a landowner than you could earn quickly under normal circumstances, and you've most likely got a good spot until the land changes hands. Too bad that guy didn't see it that way.
As far as finding valuables in someone else's field, my first thought turns to Matthew 13:44: "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
From the bible it's clear to me that the man who owns the field owns the treasure in it. Would I turn over a fork horn shed I find? Not really, because it doesn't have any value, but something of value? I think you've got an obligation. If it's worth more than the field - go buy the field!! :)
First off the friend is a moron. You don't take something "worth thousands (b.s.) off somebody's property, especially without his permission.
A place I used to hunt we'd find sheds all the time. Left them under the rafters of the cabin. Maybe one or two eventually went home, but it was only after they were there years.
If I was in that situation and jonesing for the heads, I'd offer the rancher what I was willing to pay for them (a fully taxidermied trophy head is worth a few hundred, not thousands). I'd clue into the rancher's response - if he was hesitant AT ALL about giving them up for money/whatever, I'd leave them, saying something like 'aw heck, they belong on this ranch anyway'. Making the property owner's wants the highest priority shows respect and might get you invited back some time. Hunting access worth a heck of a lot more to me than any silly old heads, especially ones of animals I didn't harvest.
Sounds like they were given permission to hunt turkeys, not claim ownership of anything cool (or of value!) they found on property that belonged to someone else! Couple of jerks in my opinion...
What they SHOULD have done is thanked the guy for the opportunity to hunt birds, given him a bottle of wine, put the antlers in his garden with the rest so they could enjoy looking at them the next time they were able to hunt there.
I believe that it varies depending on the landowner. I've had landowners tell me about places where while they were mushroom hunting they saw a big buck skeleton in the woods (they had no interest in it) and told me I could go get the head (and I did). Treat them as you would want to be treated. You won't go wrong by running it by the landowner - just ask him.
If its something worth that kind of money, let the landowner decide what the split is. And if he wants it all - let him have it. It was on his property, regardless of who found it. It's not worth damaging your reputation or a friendship. I've got permission on multiple properties because of the relationships I've established with the farmers.
--Mitch
The antlers belong to whom ever found them. Landowners don't own the wildlife.
Now, with that said, if this landowner was someone I knew personally I would have just given them to him if he wanted them. They mean nothing to me other than a cool find and conversation piece.
Ive sold quite a bit of antler and no way its worth 4k - maybe 1k. I would have given the landowner the antlers. Maybe the landowner didnt seem like he wanted them and got pissed off after he thought about it. I dont blame him not letting the guys come back. Can you get a pic of the deadheads?
The guy that found them may of thought if the Rancher wanted them he would have said so. If the rancher wanted them he should have said so instead of whining about it later.
Personally I would have told the rancher that I sure liked them but offered them to him if he wanted them. I love hunting more than collecting dead heads.
Ironically, while turkey hunting on a friends ranch this spring, I found the remains of a DANDY whitey. I took a pic of it, sent it to the rancher and told him where he could find it. Never once contemplated keeping it.
I respect and cherish the private land that I hunt so every thought I have is always with the landowners best interest in mind. For me the opportunity to hunt the private land would take precedent over any trophy antlers I may be able to sell, so I would offer them to the landowner!
I heard of a felony charge to a trespasser who picked up a valuable shed. The charge was for thief and not trespassing. The officer thought that the shed belonged to the landowner. I do not know if there was a conviction. I think that although live animals may not belong to the landowner, artifacts, minerals, animal remains, trees, coal mushrooms etc. do. If the landowner is not aware of them or is not interested in obtaining them that still does not change the fact that they are his.
If I was the farmer and wanted the skulls, I would ask for them.
If the hunter wouldn't hand them over I would then explain to him that he no longer had an invitation to hunt.
Nothing grinds my gear quite like people getting all flustered about a situation and complaining to others about it. If you care that much, grab'em and say something.
Landowners may not own the wildlife, but they damned sure own access to their ground. If I had been the rancher, those sheds would never have left my yard if no one had asked permission. But that's just me, easy to lead, but hard to drive.
a couple people have referred to the skulls as "wildlife". Is this right (serious question)? It seems to me that something has to be alive to be considered "wildlife". BTW, land owners obviously own tree. I would consider trees to be wildlife well before I put animal bones in that category.
Some of the responses here are excellent examples of why I am incredibly selective of who I allow on my property. It would have never occurred to me to me to take something like that without asking permission. I will never understand the entitlement mindset with which some people go through life.
It wasn't so much the money for my friend, but the idea that this guy took something of value and made a big deal about the value to him.
This rancher is the only large landowner in the area who doesn't lease hunting to outfitters. He believes in friends and family. Well, over time "friends" have brought other friends, have driven through planted fields, left gates open, come and go without checking in, killed animals they didn't have permission to kill. Basically taken advantage of his generosity.
I am now the only bowhunter he allows in there, mostly because I treat him and the property with respect. I can come and go as I please because he trusts me. I help keep trespassers off, so there is a symbiotic relationship, but we've become friends. This after finally gaining permission to hunt more than 20 years ago by continuing to ask, then helping him cowboy for a weekend every year.
It amazes me how many people take gifts like that for granted, and blow it for others as a result.
Tndeer, this rancher isn't the sort of guy who would claim them and take them from the guy. He's of the old, old school mentality of giving people enough rope to see where they pull it, and decide upon the consequences later.
He often asks me what I think about these things, too, when they happen. I respect that level of trust.
I think that the guy, being an antler dealer, probably had ulterior motives from the get go. Turkey hunting may have been a backdoor way to gain access to collect sheds.
The Turkey hunter is pretty clueless. I wonder if he would have thought it OK to pick-up a large nugget of gold that he found on the property, claiming it as his own.
The value of the sheds is immaterial. I got laughed at, but I double checked before taking an odd little fishtail forkhorn shed and a couple of interesting rock chunks off of a property that I hunt.
I don't believe that the onus falls on the land owner to claim the find.
I'm a little surly today, but I gotta say the antler trader is a d-bag. I hope he has some karma come his way.
Without a doubt I would have brought them to the rancher or left them there and told him where they were. The turkey hunter had no right to take something off of the mans property at all. I think the law would back that up as well. Sad to hear that folks are like that.
I would have taken a picture, showed the rancher, and told him where to find them. Those clowns deserve to be shut out of the property.
They belong to the landowner. Period.
I'm glad I read this. I imagine I would have shown the owner. I am not sure I would have even thought it necessary to run him down if I hadn't bumped into him while there. If I did see him before I left, I would have asked him if he wanted it I'm certain of. However, I'd done so totally oblivious to any monetary value they might have had.
Now, learning of this, I would ask him in the future as I wouldn't feel right not doing so knowing they maybe worth a bit of money.
I think the invited friend most definitely acted like a jerk. Knowing they were worth money but, not offering them to the landnowner was a sign of greed.
I spend a lot of time on others people land. I've found a lot of deed deer, horns, etc.. Never thought it was a big deal to pick it up. Never dreamed the landowner would want them. But, none were locked and none were big deer. It just has never occurred to me any different until reading this thread. God Bless
I think a good many of us would use our judgment and experience to navigate our behaviors. If a landowner gives us permission to access (to hunt or otherwise recreate) we probably would keep on the straight and narrow path until we knew the guy better and had a relationship. I know most of us wouldn't go on someone's property...find something of true monetary value...keep it for ourselves...be clueless enough to brag about it to our host. My thinking is along the lines of "do what you are given permission to do and take out what you are allowed to take". Nothing else.
This reminds me of a time when I used to hunt and dig ginseng as a hobby. I had permission to deer hunt lots of properties and I would often find ginseng when deer scouting. Given it has direct monetary value and belongs to the property owner I never dug any of it unless I had specific permission. I also had a friend whose attitude was "dig it where you find it and don't talk". That cost him one day when he was found digging seng by a guy who was willing to press the issue. Most people figured any ginseng found might be worth a few dollars. I dug thousands of dollars worth of it over those years. I learned early on to not take what isn't mine, and tread lightly on landowners.
The hunter needs to enroll in AA....
Easy answer for me. I would give to the landowner knowing that he would appreciate them.
Jac - "He often asks me what I think about these things, too, when they happen."
The answer to that question is the same as when talking to a wife..."I agree with you 100%, snugglebunny". It is probably okay to leave part of that off when talking to the landowner.
They should have been given to landowner, period.
I probably would have taken a photo and showed the rancher and asked what he wanted to do with them. People overstep their boundaries every day. Losing a good hunting spot and friendship over something like that definitely not worth it.
Lou the rancher is right. This problem could have been avoided all together had you just drawn that dang tag and than shot one of the two bucks. Your fault :)
Great discussion here. The two guys were given permission to hunt turkeys and ended up being shed hunters that found something.
Not much different than a person getting permission to hunt and finding a gold nugget (in the West) or a civil war relic where I live (Virginia). The permission was granted by the landowner to hunt turkeys, not shed hunt, pick up gold, or a civil war relic. Permission wasn't granted to pick ginseng or mushrooms, either.
The turkey hunters should have notified the landowner of their find and the landowner could then do with it what he wanted (and is legal). I think picking up "deadheads" in CO is perfectly legal but not certain.
A lot of guy here are giving the turkey hunter grief, and I believe it is all a simple matter of a mis-understanding.
I mean, I never really thought about this. Whenever I have been hunting somewhere else, and have been lucky enough to find something interesting, I never thought for one minute that the landowner would be interested in keeping it. Not that I am out to neglect or abuse someone nice enough to allow me to do what I love to do most in life, but rather, I simply never gave it a thought that the landowner would have the remotest interest in sheds, a skull, or a neat rock.
After some thought, and seeing the replies here, I agree, the best thing to have done, would have been to simply give them to the landowner, and at the very least, ask if he wanted them, but honestly, until I read this, I would have never really given it a second thought. I would NOT take anything, or bother anything, on another's property, but in my head, a skull, sheds, or any other natural amenity is/was different. Also, if it would have been that important to the landowner, I would have thought he would have mentioned it prior to allowing anyone onto his property. THEN, had the turkey hunter found the racks, and attempted to hide them from the landowner, I would wholeheartedly agree that he was less than, a decent person.
So I really believe that the guy was oblivious to the situation about to unfold. Why else would he show the landowner, then go on and on, or even briefly mention - I wasn't there - the worth of the racks. I tend to give almost everyone the benefit of the doubt, but believe the guy did not see the situation as a big deal whatsoever.
In contrast to him, had I been the one who found the racks, I would have been excited, and showed and told the landowner, but there wouldn't have been mention of a value. Not that I would have wanted to hide something, but rather, I would have simply been excited that I had a really neat addition to my collection of trophies, keepsakes, etc. But as you guys have pointed out, it wouldn't have been mine to keep, so now I would at the least offer them to the landowner - I honestly believe if I found something that unique, I couldn't just hand them over, without at least asking first, if the landowner wanted them. Who knows, another landowner, may not have even wanted them. I have one really good friend, who owns property in Kansas, and has given me a few sheds over the years, that he has found, but he knows that I really like and enjoy them. BUT, I don't look at them as something of financial value, but rather, personal value only. Personally, I have a few pieces that may not be worth thousands, but I do have a few worth hundreds of dollars, and though money has been tight from time to time, the thought of selling them, NEVER crossed my mind.
Lastly, I also believe that had the guy not made a statement that the racks were worth a great deal of cash, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Lou, your landowner friend sound just like my landowner friend in Nebraska, they are like family. I do as much for them as possible and may times blow off hunting to help with cattle, fence or whatever needs done. We always argue when we hunt together as to who is going to do the shooting as we both want the other to do the shooting and I usually win.
Sheds or anything else I find there is always his unless he insists I take it. A few years ago I found a great WT shed but could not find the mate, told him where I found it and he went to the area 2 days later and found the mate 1/4 of a mile away the first place he looked. That matched set of sheds is now his.
The new hunters did nothing wrong in taking the buck racks. Where they screwed up was insinuating to the landowner that they might sell the racks and make some good money off them. That is where they are wrong. They were given permission to hunt. Not grab artifacts for sale. Chances are the landowner would care less if they had said they planned to display them at their house rather than profit off their find.
Rock, you got it. We are like family, talk every week or so all year round. I know him well enough to know that Ollie's perspective is right - he wouldn't have cared if they took them to display because he likes people who appreciate such things.
It was the money thing that set him off. Like the guy didn't give a damn about the cool locked antlers, only the money he could get from them.
My rancher friend is so tight he would squeeze a nickel until the buffalo peed. He watches TV in the dark to save electricity. When I cook steaks for the 45 folks who help with the roundup and branding (he has 1700 pairs...!) he gives me grief if I trim a tiny bit of red meat off when I'm trimming the fat, and will nibble the red off the trimmed piece.
So somebody coming to him and saying "Hey, I just found $4,000 (debatable) on your place, see ya' later!" didn't set very well with him.
Good discussion and perspectives, folks. thanks for keeping it civil!
I'd like to see the look on the finders faces when your buddy tells them they are not welcome next year.. Maybe they'll see the light when those words come out .......
"The new hunters did nothing wrong in taking the buck racks. Where they screwed up was insinuating to the landowner that they might sell the racks and make some good money off them."
I'd like to know how permission to hunt gives you permission to pick up whatever you want off the guys private property.
Bob, don't do that. Ollie wasn't saying he could take whatever he wanted. He is saying who wouldn't have picked them up and, showed the guy who own's the property had they seen him? I'm guessing no one here. There is a huge difference between what he meant and, what you are making it out to be.
God Bless
Without prior permission, they're not mine to pick up.
Ive found two died bulls and both hang on the land owners barns for everyone to see injoy and talk about....but to answer your ? IMO because they only come around during the season and dont help with chores or fences or bailing in the summer the only wanna be your friend when they can hunt ,not when theres work to be done...and the biggest reason is when the neigbors call pissed off and complaining about the gate left open or the truck parked in front of it or someone crossing there land to push animals, silly stuff people do when the get buck fever
In your case if ya sell them split the money,if not put them somewhere everyone can share them "up on a barn" if your friends and wanna stay that way thats what I would do hope it all works out for you guys MikeC
I agree with Wapitibob. I have no right to be picking up items on his property.
What if you found an old musket or some other artifact? Would one take that also?
The guy in question is an ass. Period.
We are all guests when hunting someones property and as guests we should do everything we can for the owner including fixing things, cleaning up trash, and leaving things as we found them. Those hunters definitely should have asked the owner if he wants those antlers and given them to him. The owner is a hunter and they should know he would want something so unique. IMO, those antlers are the owners property, its not live wildlife that can move freely. Stupid, slobbish, selfish move by those guys.
I am up front with people I let hunt on our land. If you find anything like antlers etc... I have the choice of keeping them. If I don't want them then you can have them. If I find out you are hiding something from me you will NEVER be welcome back.
"I think that the guy, being an antler dealer, probably had ulterior motives from the get go. Turkey hunting may have been a backdoor way to gain access to collect sheds"
I don't know the guy or his motives, but since he IS an antler dealer, this one really made me think...it would be pretty damning in court!
Bob and JLS, if you had stumbled upon an old musket, I'm sure the landowner would want you to pick it up and bring to him.
This is stupid. You guys Are being ridiculous. I'm going to give you examples of how stupid your hard line stance is.
What if you found his wallet. Something obviously lost out of his pocket. Would it then be prudent to leave it lay? Heck, you don't have permission to pick up lost wallets. So, by your theories, you must leave it lay. I wander what the landowner would think about you when you told him you found his wallet but, left it lay.
What about a quarter laying in the woods. Would you leave it or pick it up to give back to the landowner? Which is correct?
What about a turkey call. Would you leave it lay or pick it up and take to the landowner. Remember, you have permission to hunt turkeys. Not turkey calls. I wander what said landowner would do had he lost that call earlier?
I could go on and on. But, you get the point. I'm not defending the guys actions. They were wrong. God Bless
WV,
You are missing my point. Take the musket to him, sure by all means. But tell him how much it's worth and just assume that it is yours to keep and do whatever you wish with it? I don't think so.
The wallet? Don't be an idiot.
Speaking for myself, and I think Wapitibob also, is that it's not the physical act of picking up the object that I disagree with. It's the assumption that I then automatically assume ownership of said object without the express offering by the landowner.
Please stop your ridiculous analogies.
I feel for the land owner here. First off most guys do not like being upset with their neighbors but also in that retrospect they do not like neighbors taking advantage of their generosity. A deadhead, an arrow head and other thing on a property belongs to the landowner with the exception of live free roaming wildlife. I have had a couple of those finds on a ranch I hunt for free in Montana. One was an old Yellowstone bronze/copper trail sign probably from the late 1800's early 1900's. I left it there and mentioned it to the Rancher. His eyes swelled up with cheer as his father had seen that sign 40 years earlier but could not find it again ( 12000 acre ranch by the way). I even tried to show him where I had seen it years earlier and even though I was sure of the area I could not relocate it. My sister who helps move cattle on the ranch from time to time grabbed her horse and road straight to it, thus solving a 40 year mystery as to where the sign was exactly. I have also found Indian artifacts and left them in place and marked the areas coordinates. He has chosen to leave those in the small cave where they still remain to this day. This is his land, his families legacy I am only but a brief visitor glad to have the opportunity to be there.
Most of us know the difference between a wallet and a deadhead.
I'm leaving the deadhead and the musket, the LO will get pictures and I'll take him back there if he wants me to.
"""""I had to Edit.""""""
Bob, I appreciate you being able to express your opinion respectfully. I didn't mean mine as harsh as it sounded. i just couldn't understand where you were coming from. I now do.
JLS, I made the same point earlier. So, no I didn't miss your point. I was confused by your concrete statement about not picking things up. I'm even more confused now it's not so concrete. Yet, you call me the idiot?
In print, when you say something unwavering, people are forced to take it that way. When you go back against it and, accuse those that question your hard line stance, of being an idiot, it confuses them. I guess you are right though, I might be an idiot. :^)
God Bless men
Those antlers are most likely the property of the state they were found in. If an antler is shed naturally, OK to pick up, if attached to the skull it's a no no to disturb and you need permission from a game warden to recover it.
Tiger, I was actually thinking that myself, especially since it was in Colorado. I am pretty sure that in Colorado you cannot just pick up an intact skull without some sort of transportation tag, or tag of some kind.
This law didn't make much sense to me, and someone threw out the scenario that some poachers would simply kill a really big animal, then leave it and return to retrieve the skull after nature has cleaned it.
Todd, that's true - we have something called the "Samson Law" after a poached elk with the same name in Estes Park. Technically you aren't allowed to pick up dead heads of 6 point elk, mule deer over 20" wide, etc.. without clearing it with the CPW first. Not sure of the exact particulars of the law but there are many instances of poachers shooting big animals on winter range, including bighorn sheep, then recovering them later (and sometimes getting caught).
With roadkill, I confirmed with CPW that you must take the whole animal, not Just the head.
WV,
For you to take offense is the pot calling the kettle black. That said, I apologize for calling you an idiot.
I personally would not pick anything up. I am not wavering on that. I don't assume anything on private land, even my best friend's ranch.
As I said, if someone feels the absolute need to pick something up, fine. Just don't plan on it being yours, because it's not.
You know as well as I do that wallets and quarters are ridiculous hyperbole. All that said, I could care less about being "right".
JLS, I didn't take offense. Notice the :^) sign. You aren't the first and, won't be the last to call me something besides my name. Anyways, I think we agree on the important parts of your point.
Being right isn't important in this topic. Learning is. This thread really made me setup and pay attention. I had never even thought of something like this. Never dreamed picking up a skull was illegal in some places. And, would have never assumed there was a human alive that would take something without first getting approval from the landowner. I really could care less about state regulations in this situation. To me, it matters not that the state says they own them. In my mind, they belong to the landowner to do with as he wishes. Minus some stupid approval permit.
FWIW, I once found a landowners wallet while cruising his timber. I found another's cell phone. I do agree it was an outlandish example. One I used to test your hard line statement. I could see the out landish responses coming. So, no offense was taken. God bless men
WV, the funny thing about this is the variability based upon how the rancher was approached. If I had found them and asked if he minded if I kept them to boil out and put in my cabin, he'd have said, "By golly, I think that's where they belong. You go right ahead. Just give me a picture when you're done".
Then again, isn't this how most things work in life?
They are the landowner's. The guys had permission to hunt turkeys, not shed hunt or antler hunt. They should have given them to the landowner. If they wanted them, then they should have offered to buy them from the LO - assuming this is legal. Otherwise, they don't leave the property without the LO's permission. Pretty simple.
I would have offered them to the rancher and told him how much I thought he could get for them. If he had no interest in them, only then would ask if I could have them.
What his neighbor did is no different than saying, "I found a truck with the keys in it parked right in front of your house. It's mine now!" IMO.
I've got 3 170"s and a bunch of 150&60's inch whitetails in a pile in my shop floor. If the rancher expressed interest I'd give him both. If it would gain me access I'd give the ones in my garage away. I enjoy looking at them from time to time but they don't do anything for me that a picture wouldn't . I'm sure these are bigger but still what's the point. I trophy hunt but it's more about the challenge than the trophy for me.
Yep. I agree Lou. Intent is always the defining element. And, often dictates the fine line between right and wrong in a lot of situations. God bless men
I once found a land owner's saddle. It was on top of his horse quite a ways from anything. Gathered him up and found the land owner a mile or so later limping towards home.
The landowner was appreciative. Not so sure the horse was, never saw him around there anymore.
I have bribed my way on to many a hunting spot, ranchers like nice leather gloves. The guys should have given the rancher the heads, especially if they want to go back.
Above it was stated........."The guy in question is an ass. Period."
It is amazing how easy it is these days to determine the complete character of a person by hearing a simple third party articulation on the internet of a single moment in their life and the utterance of one sentence.
To many, shed and shed head hunting has become as sacred as hunting. Never pick up sheds or other items while on private property, unless you own the property.
Many hunters do not respect private property rights, especially out west. As one example, Montana ranchers and landowners do not like in state hunters as they tend to not respect them, I-161 was a major, major killer of the relationship. Many will let out of state hunters have free access, but not locals and other residents.
Lou, Not really the same, but on a jewel of a whitetail property I hunt it is understood that any antlers, skulls etc. must be given to the LO. He has received a couple of nice ones from me, and I can keep the occasional trophy rack I harvest.
"The guy in question is an ass. Period."
No. Similar behavior. Hopefully transitional.
I stopped by to visit one of the landowners who allows me to hunt his land today. I intended to say hello and go on my way. We ended talking for about 40 minutes. We dug worms together for a lot of the time. The fact I was going fly fishing did not enter the conversation. I promised I would enjoy fishing his stream and we both parted happily. I only hunted his land a couple times last fall but it clear he has given me a gift by allowing me access. I did not occur to me until recently that I have also given him a gift by showing my appreciation. It appears Lou has a similar situation. My advice to anyone is to treasure these relationships and communicate often. Bob
I think the guy was just presumptive and a bit insensitive in this case. He might be a youth pastor for all we know. But I also know people who will do anything they think they can get away with, consequences be damned. Not judging him, just his actions in this case.
Greenmountain, great example. My rancher friend is like that too. I've gone out to help him for a day and all he wants to do is drive around in the pickup and talk about deer, politics, investing. He has few real friends (besides guys who want something) because he was a pretty tough customer back in the day, and it's small town prairie life out there. People have long memories.
So my friendship with him, and it's genuine, is a greater gift than anything material I could offer. He has told me that outright.
That's cool Lou and greenmountain. God Bless men
I'm about as pro-capitalism as you can get but it saddens me that dead animal antlers have any monetary value at all.
Bou,
You are correct. In my haste I addressed the person and not the actions. I should have worded it more along the lines of "assuming the facts are correct and true as Lou presented them, this guy acted like an ass." I don't know this guy. This might be the norm or it might be an anomaly. My broad brushed statement was a presumptive ass move on my part because I did not take more time to articulate it appropriately. We've all probably acted like an ass at some point(s) in our lives. We're human. I guess the bigger question is if this is normal behavior or an exception to the rule.
That said, my best friend is also a rancher. We were college roommates. We've stood at each others weddings. We've raised kids together. We've hunted together. We've buried parents together. Aside from my wife, there is no one else on this planet that I respect more.
I can tell you exactly how he would view these actions. This guy would NEVER be allowed back. He wouldn't say a word, wouldn't demand the heads, wouldn't ask for money. He would silently issue a perma-ban, and I would agree with him for doing so.
I deal with farmers and ranchers on a professional basis very often. Unfortunately, presumptive actions such as this are not as uncommon as they should be.
A "perma-ban" has quietly been imposed in this case, both on the antler guy and the neighbor. They just don't know it yet. Hope it was worth it.
JLS, my friend is much like your friend, sounds like.
I must admit, this thread has been very enlightening and educational.
Unfortunately I have never dealt with such an issue. I mentioned above, not to be quick to judge because until I read this post, had I been turkey hunting and found the skulls, I would have assumed they were mine to keep. It is probably difficult for you guys to understand my train of thought. But I basically would have felt like I was doing nothing wrong. I had permission to be on the property and though not explicitly given, I had permission to pick up sheds,skulls, odd rocks or whatever nature had produced and I am speaking within reason here. When I say reason, I guess I mean what I think is reasonable and really not worth any intrinsic value. And though I would have mentioned it to the landowner, I honestly would have never thought to ask permission to do so, or to ask if I could keep it. I would have simply assumed it was okay. Like I said, I have never really thought about it until I read this post.
And to all you guys who are saying you would have given them to the landowner, I can honestly say that it would have never crossed my mind that the landowner would have had the least bit of interest in the skull or a shed.
One major difference between myself and the guy being talked about here is, that when I saw the skulls I would have just thought about how lucky I was, and how neat and interesting the piece was, apparently the first thing that popped in his head was the actual cash value of the skulls. An additional thought, for myself, that would not have even come to mind, would have been an actual monetary value of the skulls.
It has already been mentioned here but I really believe the big deal here wasn't the fact that he even planned on keeping the skulls, but rather the fact that he planned to keep something from the landowners property that the hunter felt he could get a good chunk of money for, in which case I would have agreed, should be left on the property or with the landowner.
Regardless, I appreciate the thoughts and information. I truly do, because in the future it may just save me a lot of grief over something that I didn't even realize that I had done wrong.
But you guys actually raise other questions here. As example, you lease property for hunting and you find a similar set of skulls, or aNY assortment of natural oddities, do you still give anything you find back to the landowner?
Good summary, Todd. I think you captured the gist of the conundrum.
This may be the first time in my life I've initiated something enlightening and educational. Glad to help!
;-)
Lou
Great thread, on many levels, but especially as it relates to LO relations and situational ethics.
A parallel situation; I'm a contractor. A few years ago, we were working on a high end home that my customer recently purchased. My men were doing some demo and discovered a jewelry box hidden in the floor joists in the basement. I happened to walk down the stairs as they fumbled through its contents, some of which looked potentially valuable and included some unrecognizable coins. I listened to them discuss the most equitable way to split the booty. To their collective disbelief, I quietly shoveled everything back into the tin box and presented it to the owner, who then tracked down the previous owners and presented the box to its rightful owner.
Suckers both, perhaps.
Besides being the absolutely right way (for me) to handle the find, I soon was given another $300k worth of work at the customers home and in 3 years have been referred by him to folks in his circle for work that has totaled over $1M.
My guys were the turkey hunters, finders keepers.
I believe how you handle these situations has much to do with life lessons learned from a young age. Golden rule kinda stuff. Some folks just never learned it and don't get it when they are grown ups.
Ki-ke, I would have done the same if I were in your situation. In my head, the two situations are night and day. Above I mention if I found a head or a shed, I would see it as mine, but if I were on a property and found an old lost wallet, or anything of obvious monetary value, the first thing I would do, would be to turn it over. Its just that I never thought of a shed, or a skull, as something of real monetary value. More of a keepsake. I am not naïve to the point that I think all antlers are basically worthless, but I just don't see them as such. I guess that is why I never would have thought twice about the situation before reading the remarks here.
I too was raised to respect others property, don't take things that aren't yours, treat others as you would like to be treated, etc. But when it comes to anything wildlife related, no one really owns it. Again, just my thoughts.
Another similar scenario would be, if I happened to be out and find a small piece of gold, I probably wouldn't think a whole lot about keeping it and making my wife something with it. To me that would be neat, something I found, made into something for my wife, or mother. A more of a personal connotation, rather than just buying something from a store, that anyone can get. Actually, my wife's engagement ring was from one of the buglers, from an elk I killed. It is rather neat, some women may have been turned off by that, but she was thrilled, and no one has anything like it around. Sure some out their have jewelry made from the buglers of elk, but no coloring is identical. I'm just sentimental like that, and some things mean more to me than money. On the flip side of that scenario, were I to be out on someone's property, and find a very large chunk of gold, that was worth thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, I wouldn't even consider keeping it. And my train of thought isn't that it is okay to steal something small, but not something big, but rather, taking a keepsake for personal use, is vastly different than taking something from someone else's property with plans to profit from it. And for the record, these were just thoughts, I can barely find my way home, so these keepsakes are a rarity, and have been limited to a half dozen sheds and a couple small skulls that weren't hardly worth picking up, if only looking at it from a financial standpoint, but to me, they are pretty much priceless, because it reminds me of time spent afield with family.
Jaquomo, you always have interesting topics.
I had a turkey hunter help himself to 10 pounds of morel mushrooms that he then sold for $30 a pound. I had another guy shoot a deer across the fence on the next property. I had a guy screw steps into a vaneer grade 18 inch diameter walnut after being shown exactly what walnuts look like. A buddy had a guy take a 60 yard shot on a booner whitetail in high winds which resulted in a european mount after it was found a week later. He saw his hero's make shots like that on TV. My three idiots think I'm a A*****e for not allowing them to hunt anymore. I am very leery about letting anybody hunt and if you are wondering why people won't let you hunt, it's because of stuff like that.
Todd, you summed this whole thread up for me in your last two posts. From where I would have been to where I now am. God Bless
And of course a good bit of this comes around full-circle to our (meaning hunters in general) desire-bordering-on-mania to kill and own the biggest possible deer, elk, sheep...turkey...anything which has value. I'm not talking only about monetary value. Some people simply place a very high value on killing and/or owning 'trophy' animals or their antlers, skulls, etc. I'm not labeling that wrong in any way: it's just where things have progressed. What once might have been just an interesting find 50 years ago is today a highly prized thing, and simply unthinkable for many to walk away from and leave. But...who actually gets hurt if they walk off from a big 350" elk skull and it rots?
People are going to great effort and some expense to find, recover and sell shed antlers. It's a legit business grossing millions in sales. Understandable that a knowledgeable guy sees antlers or skulls and thinks 'big money'. I'm not in that crowd myself, but that doesn't make me right or wrong. I just don't prefer to turn my sporting life and adventures toward a money-making mentality. As a result I likely will never find myself making compromises or valuing tangibles more than respect and friendship. Maybe some of it comes with age and experience...other situations encountered in life.
As others have said, this is a great thread topic and very thought-provoking.
jaq,
enjoy your private hunting, sounds like permission (for others) from your friend is going to be hard to get from now on.
After twenty years of working I finally became a land owner. I'm trying to get along with neighbors and those that have been hunting the property unchecked for years. I ventured out on opening day of turkey season this year to find someone I don't know, a neighbor, and his boy hunting. I asked them to stop by the house and introduce thwmselves instead of running them off. Then I find this atv under one of my Hunting With permission only - no atv signs. I am so far un impressed.
There are some different viewpoints in this thread, I guess because we are all different folks who like some of the same things. Permission to hunt or fish, or simply to be on someone else's property carries a lot of responsibility in my mind. Sometimes I feel like you have to be a landowner to fully realize what it means to cherish a piece of dirt. First, it's not easy to come by the perfect piece of land for your intended use. Then, you might have to devote twenty or more years of your life to paying for it, and then maintain it as long as you own it. These are responsibilities that a non-landowner will never fully understand.
So, anything that I didn't carry in with me, is not mine to carry out, unless it is the specific animal that I was given permission to hunt. Everyone will not agree, but that's the way I feel.
Those antlers are most likely the property of the state they were found in. If an antler is shed naturally, OK to pick up, if attached to the skull it's a no no to disturb and you need permission from a game warden to recover it.
I would have never picked them up. I’d have snapped a picture, tagged the spot on my gps and passed the pic and coordinates along to the landowner. In terms of who has a right to the racks (animals are public domain vs. landowner rights…) I don’t particularly care what the letter of the law states, you can’t legislate morality. The neighbor’s friend is clearly lacking social skills (and common sense) and he’s paid a high price for his ignorance in not being allowed back.
I have family in Ohio that owns some solid whitetail property and being I live and work in the city, I cherish every moment I get to spend down there. I go out of my way to ensure I am following any protocol or customs they see fit when I visit and hunt, and if there is ever any question as to if I can do something on their land I make sure I run it by them first. Frankly, the bar would be set even higher were I guest on a friend’s land. Maybe those of us posting here in favor of the landowner are the exception rather than the rule, but no amount of antler would change my desire to stay in your friend’s good graces and I would be cognizant of the fact that I'm a guest.
In terms of your friendship with him and the experiences it’s provided… that’s a pretty awesome thing to be a part of. That would be worth much more to me than a couple of 190” sheds.
Zimmer
So true, Zim. Yours may be the best post on the thread.
I have had a similar situation in the past. I found a huge buck dead in a dried up creek bed, may of been washed there after heavy rains. I removed the head and carried the skull and horns out to the driveway of the farm I hunt. I asked the farmer if he wanted them, he asked me if I did. I said they would look good hanging over his barn door. They are there to this day, I would say it is around a 180" NT. I could care less, if I did not kill it, I don't care if I keep them or not. Unless it was a new world record, then I may have to think about it. Shawn
"Me. I give them to the rancher...a good hunting spot and new friend is worth wayyy more than those antlers"
I'm with Beendare...^
My stepdad own a good deal of property and he allows me and a buddy to hunt it. It borders national forest that is land locked. The very first deer I harvested there was a nice buck. I had the meat processed and wrapped for him (He Loves Venison) and I offered him the rack as well. His property not mine, even though he is like a father to me. Right is right. I am also permitted to take a doe from the property as well as a buck and he will always get meat as long as I hunt there. I would never dream of taking something off his land without permission.
Scar.
The difference between closing a multi-million dollar deal and losing it sometimes is not smiling enough.
I've heard more than once about how an agency lost a new opportunity because the client said, "They were smart enough but I wouldn't want to have dinner with them."
Whenever you are on a FREE property, especially a PRIME piece of property, you treat that landowner like a king. You want that landowner to think you are one of his sons.
I agree with Jaq why would you brag about the value in front of the guy paying the bills?
After reading the original post, my first thought was to photo them and mark the spot on gps/map. Show that to the landowner then help him do whatever he wanted them. To me, that'd be the right thing to do.
Then I read Zim's post, so +1 to what Zim said.
Those antlers are most likely the property of the state they were found in. If an antler is shed naturally, OK to pick up, if attached to the skull it's a no no to disturb and you need permission from a game warden to recover it.
Those antlers are most likely the property of the state they were found in. If an antler is shed naturally, OK to pick up, if attached to the skull it's a no no to disturb and you need permission from a game warden to recover it.
I had a similar experience a few years back. Cant speak for others but this is what I did. One of my sons and I went out looking for horns on a property we have permission to hunt near our house. This is a HELLUVA deer for our area. We don't grow em like this very often so it was a very cool find. I offered them to him and he said "no way, you found em, their yours". I took the skull to my taxidermist, had them cleaned up, and stained the horns then gave it to the landowner to hang in his house. The way I see it is I never would have found them had he not allowed me to be there and I was just appreciative to be there and have the opportunity to hunt there. Every now and then when I'm up there I need to go take a peek and see that rack!! He has it hanging above the fireplace. Pretty cool.
Few pics after being stained
Last one:) Sorry, this buck is a real dandy for this area. Had fun pulling this up.
SBH, a different rancher who let me hunt back in the day had muleys, elk, moose, and bears on his place. Whenever we found something like that we'd fix it up and give it to him for his cabin at Christmas. When he died he had a giant moose rack (from a matched pair of sheds), a found 7x elk, a nontypical muley mount from a lion kill, and a big bear rug from one my partner killed.
He wasn't a hunter but appreciated them immensely. He showed them off to visitors and told them how "his" bowhunters gave them to him. But like your guy, he would have been fine if we'd kept them after asking.
Jaq- Yeah this guy is the same way. He's not from here, it's a second home. When I showed it to him he was like, "oh good for you guys, is that a big one?" I'm like, "Yeah dude, its a big one" Ha! He does love his piece of MT and having stuff like that in the house is important to him since it came from his property. Needless to say, it goes a long ways. It's just about showing respect and appreciation for what they are doing letting you on THEIR land. Sounds like you guys found some pretty cool things on that guys place. Good on you for giving back.
Note to others: Jaq/SBH are examples of what you do.
Just because it's free doesn't meant it's free. Spend money on things they will appreciate and your chances of keep that place go up.
BTW SBH How do you think that deer died?
Sage- I have no idea how he died. The taxi thought it had been dead for 2 years when I found it. His whole skull and most of the lower part of the rack where submerged in water. We just saw tines sticking out of the edge of a pond. There hasn't been any confirmed EHD in this neck of the woods yet. Couple buddies thought a mountain lion based on the skull being broken, I thought he may have been gut shot by someone and went to the water and died. Do you have any ideas?
Lou, another angle on this is that many times I am told by the landowner and his wife not to forget my sheds or deadheads when I go home and that they have enough of them around. But then last fall his wife told me if I did not have a place to hang the Buck I shot that I was welcome to hang the mount in their basement family room. It will probably end up there after the mount is done, may even mount the other good one I shot there and have them done on a double pedestal for their family room.
