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ElkNut1

I am on the lowest dose possible, BP is down and I feel so much better (physically, not really mentally).

It is damaging to your body, so it does need to be addressed. Good luck!

Staying off the Community Forum would be another recommendation :p

I have my patients all work on lifestyle changes ... the DASH diet or the Mediterranean Diet are the most studied non-drug treatments of hypertension. They work, and they make you feel better.

Weight loss is helpful if you are overweight. Generally, 2 pounds of loss gives you 1 "point" decrease in average BP, though the confidence in those numbers isn't exactly "high".

Alcohol in moderation is likely a push, but more than that on a chronic basis will raise BP. (I.e. sometimes it's not "What can I do to lower BP?" it's "What can I STOP DOING to lower BP?".)

Caffeine likely has little effect -- except when it does. Some people are sensitive to it. They're not real common.

Dietary salt is the one biggest "bang-for-the-buck" change you can make ... lower = better.

I have hypertension, and I've tried it all ... and I'm on meds. If it comes to that, in 2016, you should not have to put up with any side effects or high cost to treat it medically. There are enough options out there that treatment should be cheap and easy.

If I drop 10 pounds from my current weight (i.e. end of September!) I'll be able to go without meds, at least for a while. Even with sustained weight loss, though, my BP will rise. Salt? Alcohol? Stress? All of the above?

When it does rise, it's my signal to do a "system check" on those things.

Also, keep in mind that BP can be a sign of an underlying problem. It's not always "just hypertension". Rule out secondary causes.

Whatever you do -- don't ignore it. It's a sign on your "dashboard" that something isn't right. You wouldn't drive your pickup with a warning light on, so ... change your oil, get air in your tires, and if that doesn't work ... put an additive in the tank.

My thing is I want to go about it naturally! Maybe Fish oil or things comparable that is known to reduce BP. I was curious if others have had success in that area?

I'm not overweight, I eat very healthy & am an exercise nut! (grin) I've not had anything fried at all not even an egg in over 15 years. No fast foods, no fries, no doughnuts, I mean not one thing such as this, mine is hereditary but was wondering about other measures to combat this?

No offense but Doctors want to put me on meds & I really want to stay away from that.

ElkNut1

Honestly, if you are already living a healthy lifestyle, you've likely squeezed all the "good" from that that you are going to.

Really ... people who have healthy lifestyles still get problems all the time. You're right to think "Am I doing something wrong, or not doing something right?" ... but I bet there is very little there to work with.

And what's so "natural" about fish oil? Do you know how they make it? They swim a bunch of fish into a press, smash them, and whatever comes out the press is "fish oil". Where in nature does that happen?

It's still a pill ... and a BIG one at that.

Eat fish (sea fish, for Omega-3 fatty acids) and that's good for heart disease PREVENTION. It isn't a treatment for BP.

Try avoiding impure thoughts for one whole week, and if your blood pressure is still high, find a GOOD physician. That's likely the only lifestyle measure you have left to work on. (just kidding)

Firstly I DID NOT listen to my doctor.

That would mean drugs, the bogus idea of low sodium, some other garbage as well. None of which addressed the cause of hypertension. The family followed all that crap and never got off meds. Why would I follow that?

Hyper tension is a systemic metabolic issue. Your body is a carbon-oxygen engine that runs around 98.6.

The endocrine system and metabolic system are the throttles.

If you are experiencing hypertension, it is a symptom. Just like erectile dysfunction is an early symptom of diabetes. If you don't wake up with at least a partial erection 3-4 mornings a week, regardless of age, you are on the downhill crash.

Hypertension and diabetes are cousins. It's the fuel you put into your body that makes cylinders not fire. Unless you've had some serious exposure to benzene, pesticides or other bio hazards it's what you are eating.

Low salt & low potassium will friggin kill you. Livestock will die in a heart beat. Its absolute crap.

If you eat a bunch of wheat and sugar...stay on your meds, that's your only real solution. Blood pressure medicine causes ED so I know you aren't going to like that part.

Take the pill, feel better and go try a donut.

Last thought, do you snore or have sleep apnea? BP can soar during those episodes.

Somewhere in the middle is a moderate view that's the most healthy. If you need it, you need it.

John's post is great and his first sentence cannot be stressed enough. In the last several decades, modern medicine has increased longevity from cardiovascular disease by 80% and a large part of that has been control of blood pressure. Another stat: over 90% of Americans need a BP med over age 75.

Here's the story and why "natural" means to get your BP down probably won't work for you: There are two main causes of hypertension - First one is being overweight and the metabolic changes to your body that come with that and a sedentary lifestyle. You don't have that problem. Second one is genetics and age and you cannot change that.

Why do you have high blood pressure in the first place? You have to ask yourself that before you can even figure out what "natural" remedy, if any, is going to help you. You're not fat and out of shape. The answer is in your arteries.

Arteries are made up of three layers: A hard outer layer, a layer of smooth muscle, and an inner lining. The hard outer layer gives the artery strength and structure. The muscle lining is meant to help blood along. In fact, the arteries do a significant amount of the pushing of your blood through your body. As blood rushes through your arteries, baroreceptors sense the change in blood pressure with the wave of blood and first relax, which expands the artery, then contract, to push the blood along.

The changes of age and genetics cause the outer layers of the blood vessels to harden and become less pliable. The result is that as the blood surges through the artery, the artery doesn't expand to accept the wave of blood. This results in a rise in blood pressure due to increased resistance.

The increased resistance results in the heart growing as any muscle does with work, causing an enlarged heart with increased cardiac oxygen needs. The increased blood pressure also puts strain on the vessels contributing to aneurysms. The increased pressure also blows the filtration systems in your kidneys that already run high pressure, but explode under strain of chronic increased pressure. This leads to kidney failure and eventual dialysis. If you enjoy your current lifestyle, you can kiss it goodbye if you end up on dialysis.

I'm not saying don't live a healthy lifestyle and do what you can to lower your BP without a pill, but I've had to have this conversation with so many baby-boomer men and it just blows my mind how many horses have been led to water and won't drink. And I've watched several folks ignore my advice and die because of it.

This isn't one of those nuanced things Paul. This is cut and dry. If you're not able to get your BP down on your own within several months, then it's not going to happen and in the meantime, you're doing your body harm. This could literally be the difference of 10-20 years of your lifespan if you procrastinate indefinitely.

Give your methods a shot and GL. I've seen people get their BP down without meds, but they usually were 30+ pounds overweight and sedentary. I hope you're able to get it down, but you're probably already 90+% of the way along the recommendations to someone I'd give who wanted to lower their BP without meds. If you manage it, you'll still get older and you're still going to end up needing that pill eventually, so just consider that and realize that you're going to have to face the music one day.

And also realize that we have a host of well-tolerated BP meds. You shouldn't have to suffer from any side effects, meaning, if you get a side effect, the medicine is changed to something else.

Good luck to you Paul good health to you!

ElkNut1

ElkNut1

Lots of great advice here from people much more knowledgeable than I. It sounds like you are already doing most of the things that would lead to lowering of blood pressure naturally. I have been going through the same thing, but I have had very good luck with some lifestyle changes. I cleaned up my diet, I thought I was eating ok, but on closer analysis, I wasn't really doing that well. I have cut way back on processed foods of every kind, eliminated as much added salt and sugar as possible increased my daily exercise. I haven't really cut back much on how much I eat, just what I eat and I have lost over 15 pounds and reduced my blood pressure significantly. The only suggestion I would make that has not been given is deep breathing. I am a pretty driven person and when I take the time to really breathe deeply and slow down my blood pressure drops noticeably. I have read your posts for quite some time and from the way you apply yourself to elk hunting I think it's safe to say you are pretty driven as well. Try the deep breathing, it could help. The other thing I would look at is getting your own blood pressure monitor. You may be one of the people that always produces a higher number in a clinical situation. I know I am. I was getting some big numbers at the doctor's office. When I got my own monitor it immediately showed some improvement. It was still high, but it gave me a more accurate baseline and I've been able to drop it a lot since then. Remember to take multiple readings as they will fluctuate a lot. I even tend to get a slightly higher reading on the first try when I take it myself. Good luck and give the deep breathing a try, but as others have said, if nothing works, don't hesitate to get some meds. Best, Brun

Unfortunately that's the ugly truth. No medication is devoid of side effects and sometimes acerbates or begins new symptoms. I'm 57 and started down the same road in my late 30's, just like my father and brothers.

Every single ancestor of yours survived. They had children and here you are. They survived. Even in the 1800's the death rate of children was 30-50 percent. They did not survive.

You are a bad ass machine and built to survive. Its not a matter of overcoming genetics. Its a matter of..."What are you doing to your genetics presently that is causing your body to function in a state other than optimum?"

Funny thing is I was at the orthopedic surgeons office end of Jan. for a torn calf muscle, at that time I had my blood pressure checked as normal procedure. I asked her how my pressure was, I was told by the nurse there that all was good with it & I was fine! Hmm?

Monday I had an accident that put me in the hospital emergency room for two hours as I had xrays, blood drawn & a scan of my heart to check for bruising & broken ribs. At that time I was told that my blood pressure was high, they took it a 1/2 dozen times in the 2 hour span while I was in extreme pain, I could barely breathe for the two hours there, no meds taken there. I asked what it was & was told 170's over something, I don't recall the 2nd number but they assured me it was high even for a hyper individual as I am. (grin) Thus these questions I've asked here!

I've never smoked but do have a beer per day or so but not over done at all. I was sort of baffled so I'm very interested in checking it myself under calmer circumstances.

You guys are a wealth of info & I sure do appreciate all the help & my hats off to the Doctors here who were willing to share info freely, thank you all!

ElkNut1

Blood pressure is not cured with medication. It is managed. Expecting a cure is naive and unrealistic. The whole idea of managing it is that it prevents the damage that it does to you over decades. They are not like antibiotics for pneumonia. They're not taken for a short course until you're better.

"No medication is devoid of side effects and sometimes acerbates or begins new symptoms."

While that's true, BP meds are some of the best tolerated and have the lowest incidence of side effects out of all the medications we use. Not to mention that we have over 1/2 dozen different classes of BP meds, that if you have a problem with one, you just change. I've treated thousands of people for hypertension and never left a single person with side effects except for a handful of people that would have a stroke without them.

"Every single ancestor of yours survived. They had children and here you are. They survived."

No offense, but that's pretty silly logic. Our ancestor's reproductive years were from about age 15 to about age 30, maybe a bit higher. If you lived into your 40s or 50s, you'd passed the time of reproduction.

If you're ok not living too far past 30, then that's you. Most people want to live into their 80s at least, if not longer, especially a guy like Paul who is a very healthy 65ish.

cjgregory, you should stick to killing animals and not add humans to the list. If you want to ignore medical advice, that's your right. Casually encouraging others to do the same is pretty arrogant and really going out on a limb. What do you do for a living? I bet I wouldn't be giving advice on how to do whatever it is you do...

A common urban legend is that eating a lot of salt will give you hypertension and that restricting salt will correct hypertension. Your body needs salt and the extra it doesn't need, it excretes in mere hours from when it's consumed. While everything should be consumed in moderation, the only people who need to salt-restrict are those with heart failure and kidney failure. I didn't see anything in JNC-8 that states that people with uncomplicated essential hypertension needed to salt restrict and it hasn't been an official recommendation in at least 20 years.

I had an episode with stress and living with extremely high BP and a small lisinopril pill every night before bed put me back to my High School Swimming competition BP zone

Paul, you're smart to get the machine. Check it a couple times a day for a few weeks after sitting down and resting for 10 minutes. If it's consistently at or higher than 140/90, you need a pill. If it isn't, then you don't need one. It's that simple.

And if you get a BP cuff, take it to the doctor's office and compare the readings. And even testing on different arms can give different readings.

In recent years it has gained popularity as a weight loss aid. However, the vast majority of scientific evidence has been conducted with regard to heart and prostate health.

I have been using it for about a year now for testosterone production. It doesn't put artificial testosterone in your body like shots etc. It simply stimulates the body to naturally produce it.

Anyway, Forskolin is a safe and historically and scientifically beneficial herb for lowering blood pressure.

The herb Coleus Forskohlii has a long history of use in Ayurvedic systems of medicine. Its primary active chemical component forskolin was discovered in 1974 by the Indian Central Drug Research Institute (27). Possible cardiovascular effects of the herb Coleus Forskohlii involve the lowering of blood pressure by increasing cAMP (cyclic adenosine monophosphate) levels throughout the cardiovascular system, which results in relaxation of the arteries (28). Here is an example of how that may work. Forskolin may cause the activation of an enzyme called adenylate cyclase, which increases the amount of cAMP, an important cell regulating chemical, in cells (29). Normally, a stimulatory hormone such as adrenaline (epinephrine) binds to a receptor site on a cell membrane and stimulates the activation of adenylate cyclase. However, it has been postulated that forskolin bypasses this need for direct hormonal activation and as a result cAMP cellular levels rise. Such an increase in cAMP can result in relaxation of the arteries and other smooth muscles. Further studies have demonstrated its blood pressure lowering characteristics (30).

Article: http://drhoffman.com/article/alternative-approaches-to-hypertension-2/

Clinical study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215419/

Info page with a ton of references: http://www.winchesterhospital.org/health-library/article?id=21689

On a related topic, my BP is great but I used to have borderline high cholesterol, especially triglycerides. Doc was ready to put me on statins. I did some research and started taking 3000 mg of fish oil every day. Six months later my overall cholesterol was down to "good" levels and triglycerides were down over half. That was four years ago and my numbers are still the same, even with no other significant lifestyle changes (besides the fish oil) other than cutting out desserts, Gatorade, and limiting my cookie intake to four per day with lunch.

Not saying it was the fish oil, or Nose Jammer or anything else, just relating what happened.

Purdue, great idea!

Jaq, thanks! I sure hope all this is behind me as well come elk season, I have two tags to fill! (grin) I'd have to be nearly tree food before not hunting elk! (grin) I too started taking the Omega fish oil capsules, hope they are a benefit!

The nurse said I might have white coat syndrome! (grin) Kidding aside I need to make sure everything is under control.

Thanks everyone for your input!

ElkNut1

Since Cancer, I have a severe fear of white coats. I feel my BP increasing as I'm driving to the doctor now. So, I started checking it 3 times a day at home where I'm not nervous to ensure it is where it needs to be. It isn't uncommon to be in the upper 150's over 80 in the doctor's office At home I run a steady 110-115 over low 70's. You'll start to be able to tell when it is going to read high after doing this a while. I always leave the doc's office with a headache it stresses me so bad. I know it is ridiculous and irrational but, there is no reasoning with irrational fear. :^)

Get off the steady alcohol diet. Life isn't fair and, for a guy that is predispositioned to it, steady alcohol consumption is surely adding to the problem. And, once you get your average, if it is high, get on the meds. They are cheap. If you aren't sleeping well, check with a sleep doctor. You may have a sleeping disorder causing it.

Good luck God Bless

As a 'friend' and not my doctor, he has helped thru my high cholesterol issue that I inherited.

If I had not followed his friendly advice in the past year there is a good chance I wouldn't be typing this.

Having a State Board Lipidologist as a hunting partner is nice thing to have ;)

I hope you are not a doctor. Even my doctor can admit that people who have gotten off of wheat and sugar have gotten off medication. So yes. Cured. Like I posted earlier, I cut mine off in my late 30's so I wouldn't end up like my dad and brothers.

Would it not be professional, if you cant cure something is to just admit that you don't know how?

It's a danger that both physicians and non-physicians face, and, as a scientist and physician, I'd say there is always more to learn. (BTW, the wheat thing isn't news to me, nor is it Paul's "cure").

cjgregory seems to have had some very bad experiences with the medical community in the past. That's too bad, but hardly a convincing anecdote.

And by the way, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". And reading an article about wheat is not "research". And research alone is not "understanding".

There are treatments, cures, band-aids, and excuses.

I haven't' really had any bad experiences with doctors. I did watch what happened to the bodies of men in my family as they went from medication to medication.

People are not regularly born with high blood pressure. It develops, comes on, or somehow enters one's life. Just saying sugar and wheat IS an oversimplification on my part. The question is, if one isn't born with it, what brings it on? In my family it hits early. 30's.

The lowering of free testosterone does seem to be an indicator and maybe even the impetus as well. But doctors aren't confirming or eliminating. Just prescriptions. The fall back comment is..."Show me the research.", yet are unwilling to do research and wait for the next drug. That's not an opinion. That's from MY Doctor. Unfortunately he is retiring this year. He did my weekly blood tests for me until I got it handled.

You may take all the precautions possible to control your BP and it still may not be enough. Bottom line is control your blood pressure or face the consequences.

BUT ... the posts here have touched a sore spot for me.

As a physician, I routinely advise non-drug therapy for all of my patients ... appropriate nutrition (low carbohydrate when it is appropriate), appropriate exercise, stress reduction, moderation of alcohol, avoidance of toxic substances like nicotine, etc.

The inference that mainstream medicine doesn't appreciate or advise such therapies is hogwash. This is standard-of-care stuff. If YOUR doctor doesn't, then your doctor is out of touch with mainstream medicine.

I read posts about carbs-this and testosterone-that that seem to imply that such issues are totally "alternative" and a mystery to physicians. HOGWASH.

These and others that you have never read about are routinely discussed, debated, studied, researched, and improved-upon daily in medical journals and at medical conferences.

What is hardly ever discussed in lay-"literature" is how to assimilate said changes into what we know about pathophysiology. Because that's hard. But without that, such anecdotes are useless and at times dangerous.

If you think your doctor is a quack -- you're probably right. (Same for your mechanic, plumber, etc.) Find a good one who can help you understand your issues.

Living a healthy lifestyle is not a "cure" for hypertension. At times, it's a treatment. At times, it's a preventative. Both important.

Cure - is the addition to meats of some combination of salt, sugar, nitrite and/or nitrate for the purposes of preservation, flavor and color.

:)

Withdraw the treatment and if the condition comes back, you didn't cure it. You treated it.

"Cure" is a term I'd use to describe goals for treating strep throat or breast cancer.

A problem brought on by having a sloppy diet isn't "cured" in that sense, nor is it a "disease" in the same sense.

"Cure" is a term I'd use to describe goals for treating strep throat or breast cancer."

So lifestyle is a treatment and not a cure to hypertension, but a cure is a treatment to a specific diease.

Wow. Kind of a distinction without a difference.

I understand where you are coming from on this. So if chemo doesn't kill the cancer stem cells and thus eventually comes back and it generally, eventually does, does that make chemo a poor "cure" and merely a treatment? Especially as it comes back more aggressive than ever?

True, I am not a doctor John. Engineers build and/or fix things. A failure has a systemic or underlying cause. The only purpose for me looking at the damage would be to trace it back to the actual failure. If I fixed that "item", be it metallurgy or design flaw, then it would be fairly safe to say that I cured it. If it happens again...I had the wrong "why" as to the failure and I need to find the real cause. Merely welding it together am I not setting it up for repeated failure?

I hope that you find what you need regardless of path Paul. The doctor is correct in that he said stress could cause the elevated blood pressure. You were in the hospital. I don't know about you but when I'm at the hospital sometimes I was there to say goodbye to someone. That's plenty of stress.

If you rid the cancer it was a cure, if you slow its progression it was a treatment. Chemo is not a cure for some and is a cure for others. However by definition a life style change is only a "cure" if it works and you stay on it. If you start "eating sloppy" again and your BP goes back up it was only a temporary cure or a treatment. I say potatoe you say potatoe.

I've been away from this site too long.

Paul, a wrist cuff BP system can work- check it the same way each time, wrist = or above the heart, no activity, ... Many recommend you take it with you to check against the reading taken by your nurse as an accuracy check. I sometimes have bilateral differences so usually check both L and R

G

Genetically speaking, I inherited it. I refused meds for awhile and was in somewhat of denial, UNTIL

My doc gave me a full explanation of what even a slightly elevated pressure can do.

Changed my mind completely.

"Chemo", as you call it, is given either with the intent of cure or the intent of palliation or debulking prior to an operation.

Cures of cancer are much, much more common today than when I started this business, and prevention is much better as well. But many forms of chemotherapy are given with the intent of slowing the progression rather than curing the illness, yes. What's your point? That that is a bad thing?

Lots and lots of people with very healthy lifestyles get ill. Psychologically, I think we all want to blame the victim, since we -- of course -- are beyond such dereliction.

The fat person? Their fault. The diabetic? Their fault. The guy with a heart attack? His fault.

See? I don't have those problems because I am better than those people! (That's called a psychological defense mechanism, and it works right up until someone says "We see a mass ...")

Working with uncertainty is not what engineers are trained to do. Physicians, though, have a very incomplete set of blueprints and unlimited variables to take into consideration. Comfort with uncertainty is part of the job.

"Hypertension" ... the subject of the thread ... is not an illness. It's a symptom, characteristic of many illnesses, dietary indiscretions, lifestyle impurities, stress, medicines, etc. There is no one "cure", no one "treatment". For me, it's a starting point to investigate. It may be significant, or a red herring.

Just because one person eats a lot of almonds (or whatever) and his pressure comes down means nothing to the next person who comes in with elevated pressures.

I've never done this as I believe people are doing the best they know how. Endocrine system issues are very brutal and food cravings for some are too overpowering.

"Hypertension" ... the subject of the thread ... is not an illness. It's a symptom"

We agree again.

I can admit that too and I have no problem with that, because that's not what I claimed for or against. I was simply stating that taking a BP med does not cure hypertension, it manages it. In fact, I've seen people lower their BP with diet and exercise. I've also seen it not happen. In many many multiples of experiences, day in, day out, because this is what I do for a living, unlike yourself, who have the experience of yourself from which you've formed your opinion.

cj, I wish everyone were as motivated and successful as you are, but the fact remains that we treat Americans and many Americans are fat, sedentary, and/or rarely motivated to give up wheat and sugar for the rest of their lives (two to eight weeks is the general limit in my experience). I beg people every day to give up their sugar. You know what % of people do it? A small fraction. Can many people solve their BP problems with diet and exercise? Absolutely. And you are beyond naive if you think that most health-care providers in this country don't try to get people to do this. You are also beyond naive if you think that I've not seen it and had my patients end up not needing meds and/or get off their meds.

What you are lacking, because this is not your area of expertise, is the bigger picture and experience with more than one patient (yourself). It worked for you and you are one person. Having, myself, treated thousands of people with hypertension over my career, I've learned when to know when I have a realistic goal and when not. We know Paul's age. We know his exercise habits. We know his weight (pictures). His lifestyle changes BP potential is very small because he's already very fit. Could diet help him? Potentially. My experience with many many men around Paul's age is that genetics plays a larger role in the high BP if the person is fit. I've also seen the diet changes you define as a cure-all to hypertension FAIL to bring people's BP down, because of the exact pathophysiological process that I explained at the beginning of this thread. I've also seen countless people make changes, get their BP down, then revert to old habits 6 months later and ultimately FAIL to bring their BP down with diet and/or exercise, ultimately having the same damage done to their bodies.

If Paul were my patient, would I recommend Fish oil, as was mentioned? Would I recommend diet changes? Absolutely. And your insinuation that I wouldn't is arrogant and ridiculous. I'd also recommend a BP med if he failed to get his BP down to goal in 3-6 months because he's doing damage to his cardiovascular system.

Did I jump in and recommend a med without talking about diet first? Yes. And you know why? Experience. Experience seeing people turn their backs to meds out of prejudice and die because of it. Experience saving lives that I have and you don't. I've seen the data and I've seen the real world applications. If you have 100 people with hypertension and you want to save the most of them that you can, you put them all on meds. If you want to save 1 or two, you recommend diet alone and don't put them on meds.

Paul is asking a question on Bowsite, an internet message board with tons of fitness fanatics on it. I knew he'd get all kinds diet and exercise recommendations. He came in with a stated disinclincation towards meds, so common of American men his age. If I recommended diet alone and not offer a balanced assessment of what I know he'll need, if not now, but one day, then I'd be doing him a disservice because I've seen the same thing happen over and over and over. And I've watched countless people die of preventable disease over my 20 years of medicine. All I was doing was a reality check. Something you're in great need of since you believe you're so much smarter than all of America's doctors.

Honestly, think about what you do for a living. If I started telling you how to do your job or that you don't know WTF you're talking about, wouldn't you just laugh at my ignorance and arrogance? Perhaps...just perhaps... you're missing something? Perhaps you're going out on a limb? Perhaps you're correct in your assessment of what Paul needs to do, yet are still missing the bigger picture and ultimately don't know what will make Paul live longer and healthier?

I'll caution you, sir. You haven't the experience to know the fallout from giving advice and then seeing the good and the bad come of it. Medicine and health are not so cut-and-dry as you would attempt to make them seem.

Good health to you all!

I did not short him. Naturally he ended up with diabetes in the long run and eventually died two years ago.

Notice I did not give any diet specifics or how I got my endocrine system to work with my diet. That would be Paul's responsibility.

I'm a mechanical engineer. If something I designed "broke down"...I would expect you to get angry with me. I would not even get defensive. You paid good honest money.

I owned three powerstroke diesels. The first two ran like dreams. The third has been a nightmare. Ford feels no responsibility whatsoever. I absolutely loathe them for it. You do not get a pass just because your a doctor. You already know that what you do is only managing the symptoms. Sounds like you are doing everything you know to do by your description above. The person has a mountain to climb. I already know what you are up against. Doctors, like everyone else, most do the best they know how. I am shorting you nothing. In fact, just the opposite.

So it was the medication's fault that (I'm guessing) the men in your family got fat from eating like chit and not exercising? Sounds like they didn't take care of themselves and ended up needing medications, which are, of course, an imperfect substitute to getting fat from eating like chit and not exercising.

"The question is, if one isn't born with it, what brings it on? In my family it hits early. 30's."

CJ, when we turn 30, we start to die. Why do you think 80 year old people look the way they do? It's not from 80 years of eating sugar. It's from 80 years of being alive and our genetics having our general lifespan hard-wired into our DNA. Your family's genetics react the way you do and it sounds like you're setting yourself up to be as healthy as you possibly can, given your genetics, and that's great. I hope you live longer and healthier than the other men in your family and I hope they start listening to you and improve their health.

But it sounds like the men in your family are NOT listening to you and are FAILING at improving their health. To blame the meds for their declining condition is naive and silly logic, just like your 'we made it this far without meds without dying and were able to reproduce at age 20, so we can make it to 90 years old without the meds too' silly line of thinking.

I've watched a ton of folks like the men in your family die because they didn't take their meds. I've also seen a ton of folks just like YOU who were fit and ate right and refused meds and died because of it.

I'm curious, how many white men, around age 65, thin, fit, highly active, outgoing personality, strong in convictions, borderline in BP, have you personally given your "cure" to, then followed up with them every 3 months or so for several years to see that it's continually working, continually adhered to, and followed the results during that time and for many years thereafter? How many men, just like Paul have you treated?

I've treated dozens, probably hundreds of men just like Paul. I've watched and followed them, I've seen what's possible for them and what's not possible for them, I've seen how often they stick to diet changes and stick to meds, and I've watched the death certificates be filed as the final piece of paper in their charts.

"I hope you are not a doctor..."

cj, your arrogance is so thick, it could be cut with a knife. How many years of your life have you dedicated to full time education of Medical matters? How many sleepless nights have you spent taking care of people? When's the last time you saved someone's life? For me, it was last week. I was in a remote village and a guy was brought in found down from an ATV wreck. He had one lung crushed and filling with blood, a head injury, and compromised airway, and his blood pressure was falling. He was minutes from death. I salvaged his airway, stabalized his respiratory system that was filling with blood, and stabalized his falling blood pressure which would have caused him brain damage and death in about 5 more minutes.

"I hope you are not a doctor..."

That guy, when he wakes up, will be appreciative of my education and skill set. But to hear ridiculous insults such as yours is not only laughable, but points out the extent of your arrogance and ignorance. I don't say this just to toot my own horn. I was just doing my job and if I'd failed, and I have, I'd live with another life on my shoulders and another question of "what could I have done better?" and another small piece of the bigger picture that builds up to make me who I am through my experience, and would make me a little more humble when it comes to making decisions that affect other people's lives which is something you seem to not understand due to lack of experience.

You know what they say about a little knowledge and being dangerous? You sir, have a little bit of knowledge and are very dangerous.

Sorry for making it personal - I really try not to do that and I'm sure you're a great guy, but I'm not going to stand by and be insulted like that.

This is just something I'm passionate about because over my entire career, I've seen people ignore medical advice to their detriment and I've seen a lot of people think that they understand better than those taking care of them and I've buried a ton of them and it strikes a nerve.

It reminds me of the scripture at Luke 13:34 where Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling."

No. Managing risk factors. There's a huge difference.

Just because hypertension is one part of a greater metabolic syndrome (in many, but not all cases, and more often than not, that's only part of the story) doesn't mean that a) it (elevated BP) isn't independently doing harm to the body, b) it has one cause and one solution, and c) most importantly, that even if it has one cause and one solution, it does not mean that even the best solution is automatically going to result in the best end result for the patient due to a number of factors, the most common being lifetime compliance with the treatment.

Let's go hunting.

Good idea John.

The out of the blue around Christmas 2009 something started to go wrong with my digestion. I was getting sick a lot. At first it was a couple days every other week. Then it got to where I was sick every day of the week and maybe feeling "okay" one or two days of the week.

Saw a lot of doctors. Had a lot of tests and procedures. Was given a bunch of different medications.

Doctors said I had a condition called "Gastroperisis". Nothing they could do for me, I would have to somehow learn to live with it. They said sometimes it can get so bad people have tubes surgically implanted so they can receive nourishment.

I learned all I could about it. I became a member of a help group through the AGMD (Association of Gastro Motility Disorders), where I go to share and learn from other people who have this condition. Doctors have done very little for me. Other than they have to keep checking my stomach and colon to make sure theres no cancer growing as GP is often a sign of developing cancer. So far so good.

After 4 yrs of special diet and exercises I slowly began to improve. I consider myself almost normal today. As in I only get sick maybe once a month. I'm still very thin. I weigh 150lbs but that's a lot for me. I was all the way down to 130 at one point.

I eat small portions of bland foods. No dairy, no preservatives, nothing fried, and only low fat. No Alcohol or carbonated beverages. I'm really into organic foods. I am able to eat venison every now and then. I do better when its ground although cut in small pieces and stewed is okay too. Meat probably makes up less than 1/4th of my diet though. Big thing is the food has to be cooked and can't have a lot of spices or preservatives, as for some reason these things cause the food to be more difficult to digest. And I keep moving. I don't sit around. If I do then I find I get sick. Something about moving helps the food to pass through my system.

Anyway I know no one would choose to have such a diet, but today my blood pressure is 116 over 65. My heart rate is under 60 beats a minute. Dr sometimes asks me if my heart is even beating. And honestly I really don't mind my diet. My sense of taste has changed so much that plain ole rice, or a baked potato with nothing on it tastes really good to me.

I had no intention of a dispute with a doctor. It serves neither as I intended no attack.

In all seriousness, thank you for the reminder and prodding - I've been getting lax with the soda's again. Got to finish this habit off for good!

--Mitch

I've cut out all crap and alcohol trying to get BP down with little to no impact. My doctor is very conservative and gradually worked with me on meds to get things inline. He tells me to take my meds, drink in moderation, enjoy food (all within reason) and live a good life.

I'm a big fan of dr's and meds!

As my testosterone came up my blood pressure went down. To say that you cant control that, is completely false data. there is a lot to an endocrine system so it may or may not apply.

Correlation is not causation. (Repeat, repeat, repeat.) And repeat again.

Review the definition of "hypothesis". Then review the dangers of extrapolation. As in the morbidity and mortality associated with your hypothesis. As in "dead people."

You know what'd be great? Wouldn't it be great if there was a place that you could study this stuff for 4 years straight for 60 hours per week minimum (no summer breaks) and then 3-5 more years of study, challenge, debate, arguments, research, and mentor-ship. And then twenty years of continued challenge, learning, debate, arguments, research, and teaching.

That'd be great if there was someone out there so dedicated to the subject you've mastered in just the humble art of introspection.

But anyone who would do that would probably just be some close-minded jerk who would never consider reading study after study of the very subject that you understand so fully after looking at your lab tests.

They don't really debate. I did find it interesting that low testosterone is associated with many "ailments". As mine is nicely elevated, however that came about, I don't have high blood pressure like I did in my late 30's.

Why would you say that my ideas came from lab tests? They aren't my ideas. I'm not quite that educated. But I do understand some things. We really are in the same physical universe with the same applicable, physical laws?

I don't believe for a second that things aren't understandable and that the human endocrine system is some fantastic, esoteric knowledge base. There is no holy grail hidden from us by doctors or cellular biologists.

Wow. You've proven yourself to not know of what you speak.

"There are people who do that type of regimen on the endocrine system."

Yep, I'm one of them. I just know what I'm doing. And I know what I DON'T know, too.

Please point me into the direction of your work and let me read it.

Your name doesn't pop up in any of my mechanical engineer contacts either. And I been hiring them for decades.

You must work for someone. :)

Point me in the direction of your work and maybe I'll hire you (or your boss's company)

You know nothing, John Snow.

I'm done with this thread :)

You would know I've worked from the North Slope for BP to the oilsands of Alberta for Syncrude, to the Overthrust in Western Wyoming and beyond.

That's beside the point. I truly want to read what he has to say. People really are that smart and they write their studies down. Look, I've already fixed my BP. I've already been here. I have nothing to prove and I stand by what I wrote. There are plenty of guys that teach me engineering stuff all the time. Things I've never thought of. I'm not even close to the best, but I can get your plant running again for you.

Tapping the machine with a hammer to get it running, the cost is 20 bucks. Knowing where to tap the machine will cost you two grand.

You don't want me in the forums? Kick me out or you could just ask me to leave. Either way. But if I'm here, I'm entitled to an opinion or expression of what I do know or even think I know. You can easily just go to another thread and forget about this one cnelk.

As far as I'm concerned this thread is over. It went far further than I wanted it to. I don't get sensitive about my profession because I don't pretend that lay people are ignorant. If you can read, you can do my job. If you can read...you can be a doctor as well.

IMO - as far as your BP, listen to your doctor [not a mechanical engineer] because $20 will get you running and $2k will get your taps in the right place

Choose wisely

Guys, I'm not opposed to Dr's at all, I was just hoping that there was an optional diet or something that may help out? If not I understand. I really appreciate the ones that suggested the BP apparatus. I did receive a digital one from Amazon yesterday. I took my BP several times now to see where I'm at in a more relaxed state. For those who do not know I'm 61 & very healthy in my opinion. (grin) I haven't had bacon in 15 years along with the fried stuff I mentioned above. (heck I loved bacon-grin)

After checking BP I see my average readings are 139/85 --- Is this much better? I must had been pretty stressed at the time in the hospital when they received readings in the 170's. With that in mind maybe a addition of something natural can help lower & maintain it? If not meds are certainly in the equation, I'd love to keep hunting elk with my son for years to come just as many of you do!

I'll take a few more readings & see if it lowers or raises some. You guys have helped me out, I probably wouldn't have gotten the BP apparatus without you. Thank you guys very much!

ElkNut1

Some doctors allow higher readings with increasing age after 60 That opinion is not universally accepted.

Paul, looks like your BP is ok. Keep watching it and GL this season.

No impure thoughts and you should survive!

I'd say the main recommendation: Keep an eye on it like most of us keep an eye on the scale. If things are going the wrong way, maybe there's a reason.

(Keep in mind, none of us know the details of your family history, your medical history, etc. If in doubt, talk it over with a pro. -- standard disclaimer.)

Funny story in the midst of all of this in the last year hooked myself with a jig I couldn't get out by myself. First time ever. Went to ER. Laid on the cot waiting for help, BP was 120 over 80, perfect for a 55 yr old. May be the acupuncture folks have something here??

Seriously I wouldn't use any herbals, its the dose that makes the poison (cure). The ancient Greeks even knew this. Herbals are really hard to determine proper dose to due the varying amounts of the active ingredients(yes there has to be one for an effect to occur other wise its placebo).

Work with a good doc should get it figured out.

Best of Luck

Ike & John, thanks for your insight, both of you have helped out immensely not only to myself but obviously to others. Thanks!

I'll keep tabs on things here on my end & hope things stay OK! (grin) Thanks to everyone shedding their thoughts & ideas too on this subject!

ElkNut1

First off, I'm no doctor and have NO expertise in this matter. And yes, I do believe that heredity IS a factor in health. However, I think that many times heredity is blamed or credited for things to which it has no influence over.

What is also "inherited" from one generation to the next (along with genes) is lifestyle, food preferences, fears, expectations, etc. These too can have a profound impact on health and the results can easily be thought to be gene based. Whereas, in fact, they were learned behaviors that influenced one's health.

If a parent has a fear of dentists they won't go and most likely won't take their children. The fear and the avoidance of dentists gets passed to each generation. The parent gets gum disease which has been shown to impact the cardiovascular system negatively. The child and eventually the grandchildren also gets cardiovascular problems for the same reason. Obviously they think it is inherited.

I also believe (no proof just my belief) that viruses cause some, perhaps many, of the so called "inherited" or "genetic" health conditions. The virus is what is passed along generationally not a gene.

For example, shingles was once to be its own diease. Around 1900 they discovered the connection to the chicken pox virus. Many viruses and some bacteria never "die" they just go dormant only to pop up when the imune system grows weak. Another example is the recent possible connection of the herpes virus to Alzheimers. Google it.

So things like Alzheimers, MS, heart diseas and many others may, in some cases, have nothing to do with a genetic transfer of the disease or a "bad gene", but rather it's the after effects of some virus. ........ Just a thought.

There may be some truth in it.

"However, I think that many times heredity is blamed or credited for things to which it has no influence over."

I believe this to be true as well. Heredity is sometimes a propensity or more accurately a potentiality. I like to think of it as...

"Its not what your genetics are doing to you but what are you doing to your genetics."

That said, EPIGENETICS is a fascinating field.

If mom is stressed during certain parts of her pregnancy, it can influence the expression of genes in her children, and even GRANDCHILDREN.

It's an amazing phenomenon, and one discussed at a conference in Denver in 2015 when I heard one of the world's experts in lipidology suggest that the one most important thing we could do to prevent heart disease was ... adequate prenatal care!

And he had the numbers to back it up.

But ... many physicians (and others) just blame "heredity" as though "my parents were fat so I am, too" is an answer.

As I've been trying to say this whole thread: It's not that easy. Grasping what we know and what we know that we don't know is a very big task ... one you won't be able to grasp with just reading here or there.

I agree. Its engramic.

There were some old ones that did ... but the main reason for "peckers not working" is that their owners are overweight and ... wait for it ... have high blood pressure.

Viagra, in fact, was initially developed as a drug to lower blood pressure. It does, too, modestly. But it really does in the venous plexi of the penis, allowing blood to flow in.

(Blood flows, after all, from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure.)

So, if you have hypertension and a pecker that doesn't work, it's much more likely from the hypertension, not the meds. Actually, that's very uncommon, and much more commonly the old pecker gets better when BP is treated.

And after a stroke? Well, the old sex life goes WAY downhill.

I took BP 3 times this morn, it was 142/90 -- 136/85 -- 131/86 -- All in all pretty good for 61, it averaged in the 136/87 ballpark, I'll take it! (grin) I'm 5'-7" 151#

ElkNut1

Hell, I wouldn't want to get old either.