What mechanical for your elk?
Elk
I am interested in the following information about mechanicals you have used on elk.
1) broadhead used
2) poundage
3) draw length
4) arrow weight
5) arrow speed
6) penetration
7) was the elk recovered?
8) will you use again on elk?
Rage hypodermic +P will get it done for you.
"Bored are we! "
One of us seems to be bored, the other is asking legitimate questions.
Bou,
Have you used them on elk?
1) broadhead used - Pucketts Bloodtrailer
2) poundage - 70#
3) draw length - 30"
4) arrow weight - 500gr
5) arrow speed - 260fps
6) penetration - .5"
7) was the elk recovered? Yes, the elk made a full recovery.
8) will you use again on elk? No, ran out and they aren't available.
No one mention Swhacker, for thou shalt be crucified.
I've shot 2 with mechs Mark. 1. G5 T3: 70#, 30", 500g, 256fps, stopped on opp. side rib, yes, no 2. Wasp Jaknife, 73#, 490g, 287fps, passthru, yes, might use them again
Keep an open mind gents! There are some great heads being developed!
Mark: I have been combining recommendations and experiences of guys I know and respect along with searching YouTube videos. I am too old to be closed minded:)
I have used two different ones on 3 elk. All were pass throughs - all died within 50-80 yards. 70 lb bow - goldtip xt hunter. Both were cut on contact tips with 1.25" and 1.5" cutting diameter. I liked the 1.25 better, but rocket stopped making them. I have also used them on whitetail, muledeer, and sheep.
Head into heart pix
Head into heart pix
Arrow out pix
Arrow out pix
1) broadhead used well I've used 2 different heads. 1 was a rocket sidewinder that took one elk. 5 others was and have been my head of choice. The rocket steelhead 100 gr.
2) poundage. Different bows, but last 2 elk was with 70 lbs. And thats what I finish this post with.
3) draw length,, 29
4) arrow weight 400
5) arrow speed 298
6) penetration,, Last 2.. one was hit in left top of the scapula all the way to the right tender loin. Other frontal broke rib and right thru heart. Arrow came out and was not found. Guess 20 inches.
7) was the elk recovered? Yes both, first hit right lung ,liver, 80 yds. Other right thru heart 250 yds. Go figure.
8) will you use again on elk? Killed last 5 with the steelhead and will not change at this time. 4 heads found were in tack.
I have killed four of my elk with mechanicals . 3 with rocket steelheads and one with a rage! 405 grain arrow 65 pounds and 295! All elk recovered . Rockets all came out the other side!! I shoot fixed blades ! But always have a mechanical in the quiver! Hunt
Thanks for the serious answers guys. I have shot 1 buck and 2 does this year with the NAP Killzone and I am so impressed with them that I wont be shooting anything else on deer or smaller size game. I have no elk experience so I don't want to do something stupid. Right now if someone made me choose a head to take elk hunting next year it would be the Killzone low ke. The regular Killzone has delivered gruesome blood trails.
1) broadhead used - 100gr. Grim Reaper Razortips
2) poundage - 60lbs
3) draw length - 29"
4) arrow weight - All have been between 400gr-450gr
5) arrow speed - Not sure, never have checked.
6) penetration - Great majority have been pass thru's, but I have had some stop on the offside shoulder.
7) was the elk recovered? Yes, all of them.
8) will you use again on elk? Yes
I'll go with the most recent. I've killed elk with three different mechanicals. This last one was a much further shot than I would ever have seen myself taking but I felt confident and let it go.
1) broadhead used- Rage Hypodermic
2) poundage - 71
3) draw length- 29.5
4) arrow weight- 465
5) arrow speed- 260
6) penetration- 15 inches
7) was the elk recovered? Yes, heart shot.
8) will you use again on elk? Absolutely
1) Rocket Steelhead 125 2) 72lb Bowtech Prodigy - performance setting 3) 28.5 DL 4) 494gr arrow 5) 282fps 6) complete pass through - double lung 7) elk down in ~150yds. Blood trail was very easy to follow 8) definitely
Used a Rage Hypo this year. If placed right they're very effective. They get the job done well on everywhere but heavy bone. Probably won't personally use them again on elk as I think fixed is a better option as I tend to hug the shoulder. Lots of good options out there.
I use spitfire 125's as I don't go larger than 1 1/2" dia.
60# and roughly 420 gr arrow. All but one were pass thru.
Bob,
What is your DL and what bow do you use? I shoot 60 lbs too so your setup gives me a nice comparison.
Bowtech Experience 1) broadhead used, 125 grain NAP Killzone 2) poundage, 62 lbs 3) draw length, 28" draw 4) arrow weight, 578 gn 5) arrow speed, Dont know 6) penetration, passthrough 1 elk, 4 deer 7) was the elk recovered? Yes, within sight 8) will you use again on elk? Absolutely and with confidence.
I have shot two elk with Wasp Jak-Hammer select-a-cut 11/2 inch cut. Both with PSE Xforce bows at 73 pounds, 30 inch draw length, Axis 300 Shafts 476 grain total arrow weight right around 295 fps. First elk arrow was tight to the v and hit the off shoulder he went 30 yards, bull this year was a double lung complete pass through he went 70 yards. I will use Wasp Jak-Hammers as long as they make them - I have used them for almost 20 years.
Exodus, leave the mechs at home, better for deer and bear
carcus, with all do respect, I dont think the OP asked about your tiny weak fixed heads. he asked about mechnicals
I have killed 2 bulls with mechanicals.
1. Grim Reaper Razortip 125 gr.
2. 63#
3. 28.5 draw length
4. Approx. 420gr. arrow weight
5. Never checked arrow speed
6. One pass through, one quartering shot against opposite shoulder
7. Both went less than 100yds. both recovered
8. I am more of a fixed blade guy, but would have no issue using Grim Reaper again
Brun,
Is that GR the 1 3/8" head?
Bow, I'm using an older Hoyt Alpha Max 35, draw length is 29 3/4.
Mark-I killed mine with an ulmer edge. Had to finish him but it would have done the job in time. Through front shoulder and one lung. #70 26.5" Hoyt at 250 fps. TAW 500 grains.
I would use again and hae had good luck of late with the rage +P on whitetails.
I have shot my last two bulls with Ulmer Edges... love the broadhead. wish they still made them. I stocked up on them last time I found some for sale. Still have 20 heads left. 1) broadhead used Ulmer Edge
2) poundage 65 lbs
3) draw length 28"
4) arrow weight 2015 - 386 grains 2016 - 440 grains
5) arrow speed 285 fps
6) penetration 2015 - pass through 2016 - 14"
7) was the elk recovered? Yes - both elk went about a 100 yds. 2015 elk died in sight.
8) will you use again on elk? Definitely
Rage Hypodermic, entrance hole
Rage Hypodermic, entrance hole
I shot my last bull with a Rage Hypodermic. It was hit well, even though the shot was a fair distance (much longer than I normally choose to shoot). It had good penetration, although it did not exit the offside. He went about 90 yards, leaving a huge blood spray out the entry side about every 10 yards (I assume upon each heartbeat). It made a very large entrance hole! I've taken many large animals with the original Rage in Africa, but this was my first (and so far only) big animal with the Hypodermic. Since no broadhead company is beating down my door to have me shoot their broadheads, I plan to use the Hypodermic on my upcoming Desert Sheep hunt. Carbon Matrix, 63 LBS, 29" Draw, 285 fps, 450 gr FMJ.
This is impossible! Every internet expert knows mechanicals won't kill elk. Heck, they fall apart in flight before ever reaching the animal. And the internet experts would mostly agree that you guys are using way to light weight arrows, too, never mind questionable KE to boot!
You should just stay home with your flimsy mechs and soda straws and leave elk hunting to guys who know best.
;)
Bowfreak, The Grim Reapers I have used are the 1 3/8" head.
Bowfreak, The Grim Reapers I have used are the 1 3/8" head.
Good luck on the desert stickflicker, funny Jaq. I like the 125 Rocket Steelhead, it will do the job if you can. I use Slick Tricks now but if I shot a mech again it would be that Rocket.
Killed 1 with wasp jackhammer 60 yd shot arrow was hanging half out other side. Ran 80 yr straight down. No damage to head One with killzone 1.75. 60 yd Complete pass through in lungs took 5 steps and shot again through trees hit spine. He did not know he was hit. The blades went in straight up and down between the ribs. Broke off the COC tip would use again but trophy tip. Broke a COC on deer same year This years elk with Hypodermic 63 yd shot 350 yd track. Slight bend on one blade.
This yr all the blades rattled out of my buddies Ulmer heads. We were riding the SxS 40 -80 miles a day
I am with JoeHunter...I shot my Elk twice with a 100gr 1 3/4 Wasp Jak Hammer. 29" 400 gr arrow at 280 fps. First time thru chest and into far leg, He ran 25 yds, stopped quartering away, I shot again hitting mid body in chest...Arrow poked through far side(broke ribs). My son shot his bull Elk at 8 yds this year from his tree stand. 53lb bow. 26" arrow at 380 grs 265 fps. 100gr 1 1/4" Wasp Jak Hammer. Arrow penetrated to fletch and ended in far rib. Great broadheads. Shot tons of other critters with them... they perform flawlessly, time and time again. I currently have added more weight to my arrow and shoot a super Slim Victory TKO arrow now...have not shot any big animals with it yet...curious how much more penetration I get.
I have shot 15 elk with mechanicals, all rocket steelhead except two with rocket sidewinder. All recovered within 150 yards. Bow set at 65 lbs. I feel the rage hypodermic +p should work well but have only killed deer with them, not elk.
The steelhead is a really solid head and if you hit a bone, it will not fail.
Taken several with rocket steelhead 100 LOVE THEM. 70# bow, ACC arrows, 20-40 yards. Never lost an elk. I LOVE those broadheads. I wish they had the quality they had years ago but still great.
Check to make sure the state you plan on hunting allows them,Idaho doesn't
I am interested in the following information about mechanicals you have used on elk. 1) broad head used Mechanical None, never 2) poundage 69# 3) draw length 26" 4) arrow weight 570 5) arrow speed ?? 6) penetration pass thru on a shoulder blade, all be it the to of the blade. Not hard bone but more cartilage "MAGNUS stinger or buzz-cut" 7) was the elk recovered? Always 8) will you use again on elk? COC Magnus , buzz-cut, stinger?? YES!!! BS mechs, never!! If you need i can tune your broad heads for you.
Ankle biters withstanding, I appreciate all of the information.
Absolutely the new Rage +P- 2Blade. I have shot my last 20 Bulls or so with expandables and I can honestly tell you to just pick a rear deploying two blade that is SHARP and you will never look back. The old technology over the top cam style mechs. gave all mechs. a LOT of bad press and to many people have just not taken the time to do the testing and research to realize that shooting a fixed head at this point is pretty much like choosing to shoot aluminum arrows. Is there anything wrong with that? No, but you rarely if ever see someone going from carbon/ACC back to aluminums. The truth is it's not "what" you hit them with, it's "Where" you hit them, and a good mechanical is ALWAYS going to be far more accurate and forgiving no matter what some yokel tells you about how he tunes up hill ten miles in the snow both ways... BLA BLA BLA. I will run my tune/ability against anybody on this site, and the "truth" is a "good tune" can't over come the laws of physics. The minute you start steering from both ends things can NEVER be the same/equal... Shot selection and accuracy are all that matters on Elk.
For this year...^^^ -- ---The new Rage +P - 2 blade--- 431 Gr. ACC arrow -- 50 Gr. HP brass inserts make 15.7% wf -- 28" draw--
69-1/2 pounds -- Total pass through- arrow was found 30 yards beyond buried in the dirt. -- Yeah I will probably use it again... LOL! ;-)
Very surprised that Scoot got poor penetration with the rocket steelhead. With his setup shooting 450 @ close to 290. I've seen folks shooting 50lbs get broadside pass thrus on whitetails. Only thing I could think of that would give poor penetration on that head and with his kinetic energy,, is if the arrow was not flying straight.
If your going to use a expandable, the rage +P or the SS is probably the best head out there, Im still using snypers for deer and bear, same head but used rubber band in the front for blade retention. I bought some grim reaper razercut SS with a 1 3/8" cut this year, super tough looking head but I feel there is a chance the head my not open on impact
Back in the middle 90's a group of us began elk hunting in Colorado. I forget the exact number but I believe we shot nine elk with 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 inch Rocket Steelheads. We never lost an elk and pass throughs were almost always achieved unless we hit the off shoulder. In fact, a bull I shot had the Steelhead cut a rib going in with two blades and dead-centered a far rib up high near the spine. That arrow passed through and penetrated some earth. Most of us were shooting bows in the 270 - 280 fps range with 400 - 450 grain arrows. The only thing that had me move on from the Steelhead after a number of years was that the entrance hole was sometimes small because the blades would open as they passed through the hide.
Absolutely Razorhead. Would be very deadly. FMJs are very good weight and the new +P is the perfect diameter for your set up. There is also the 2 blade Rage SS to consider. Same diameter cut 2 blade just different design/material.
I have shot the majority of my bucks with OTT expandales and have had two instances in which there was only a pencil sized hole. The pass through was huge but if not for the second hole would be tough. I'll never shoot but a slip cam mechanical going forward because of it. Love the rage +P and anything in that realm will work. Tradeoffs obviously but I haven't seen any more than a fixed blades, which I still shoot depending on what I'm hunting.
^^^Good productive commentary from Ohiowhiner as per usual...^^^
Ummm...the old technology he [Elkman] was/is referring to is the cam style deploying older design compared to the newer rear deploying mechanicals. Never once did he say anything about fixed vs mechanicals.
He was comparing Granny Smith apples to Gala apples.
I've shot 4 bulls with mech heads- 3 spitfires and one sledgehammer I think it was called. all died within 150 yds with decent blood trails.
a buddy of mine that shot Steelheads for years; I've seen him lose 5 bulls.....one was just a terrible shot to the leg that would have been lost no matter the head. 2 i didn't see exact shot location but from what he described...should have been dead. 2 were shots that I know would have been recovered if using a COC fixed head...but were lost with his mech head.
"You sure?"
Again, old design of mechanical vs. new design of mechanical. The more recent design mechanical performs better today than they did yesterday.
"...shooting a fixed head at this point is pretty much like choosing to shoot aluminum arrows."
Yeah, I guess he did elude to fixed vs. mechanical. However, still comparing today vs. yesterday. What I get out of it is mechanicals today perform better than what they did yesterday. So why revert back to something used yesterday because it's "better" when improved design today works extremely well. He also mentioned it's like not too many people go back to Al shafts after shooting modern carbon, but some do.
Fine line between being honest/to the point and arrogant...
Rocket Steelhead for me. 60# This year I hit my bull on a QTR to me behind the shoulder and arrow exited in front of the far ham. He turned as I shot. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. About a 300 yard recovery. I love this head and have killed deer, bear, turkey, elk, caribou and an Aoudad with them.
Rocket Steelhead for me. 60# This year I hit my bull on a QTR to me behind the shoulder and arrow exited in front of the far ham. He turned as I shot. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. About a 300 yard recovery. I love this head and have killed deer, bear, turkey, elk, caribou and an Aoudad with them.
HDE: "Ummm...the old technology he [Elkman] was/is referring to is the cam style deploying older design compared to the newer rear deploying mechanicals. Never once did he say anything about fixed vs mechanicals.
He was comparing Granny Smith apples to Gala apples."
As you point out above^^^ Ohiowhiner struggles with reading and comprehension , but he REALLY excels at whining.... LMAO! ;-)
Actually ohiohunter....I think you were the one that derailed what was a good thread when you fixated on Elkman's post.
I have derailed my share of threads, maybe we can get this one rolling again with more good information. :)
"Actually ohiohunter....I think you were the one that derailed what was a good thread when you fixated on Elkman's post."
Unfortunately, this is exactly what happens on any thread concerning mechanicals. Whether you use them or not, ELKMAN provides valuable information based on first-hand, real world experience. Along comes ohiohunter with his usual anti-mechanical diatribe. People tire of his petty, never-ending rants so they stop posting. THAT'S how a thread gets derailed.
I've always been against mechanicals but my mind is starting to change.
Elkman, and others, what's your thought on different shot angles. Are your shot angles restricted more than with a fixed head? What about a 20 yard frontal, fixed vs mechanical? I know this is a controversial shot as it is, but it's one I'd take with a fixed head. How would a mechanical perform?
Ohio quote,"Beendare, hopefully he picks better shots or switched bh's. I don't think I could stomach 5 lost elk" Well he is a former ASA tour shooter so we know he can shoot. I've been there when these happened and what you assumed is wrong...they were good shot choices.
My attitude on equipment and shot selection has changed over the many decades after seeing hundreds of animals die to an arrow.
I don't like taking long shots anymore...though i've killed animals at 80yds....i now know that even though my accuracy is there...too much can happen at those longer ranges.
I shoot a heavy arrow. No, I don't NEED to...but i do and I am convinced it makes my setup more lethal.
I use a fixed COC head. Sure I killed animals with mech heads...and sure they work...no argument there. I have found many advantages to the COC heads beyond penetration, though that additional penetration can be a make or break...and even influence whether i take a shot or not. I can take shots with a heavy arrow and strong COC head i wouldn't take with a mech head....but to each his own...they all work.
"Actually ohiohunter....I think you were the one that derailed what was a good thread when you fixated on Elkman's post." Unfortunately, this is exactly what happens on any thread concerning mechanicals. Whether you use them or not, ELKMAN provides valuable information based on first-hand, real world experience. Along comes ohiohunter with his usual anti-mechanical diatribe. People tire of his petty, never-ending rants so they stop posting. THAT'S how a thread gets derailed"
SPOT ON!!!!!!!!
From: wyobullshooter
29-Nov-16
"Actually ohiohunter....I think you were the one that derailed what was a good thread when you fixated on Elkman's post." Unfortunately, this is exactly what happens on any thread concerning mechanicals. Whether you use them or not, ELKMAN provides valuable information based on first-hand, real world experience. Along comes ohiohunter with his usual anti-mechanical diatribe. People tire of his petty, never-ending rants so they stop posting. THAT'S how a thread gets derailed.
AMEN!
Rant and rail all you want. You still missed the point and you rolled your eyes too quickly.
That's it, and that's all.
The good, the bad and the UGLY all in one thread. Love the broadhead threads.
It never ceases to amaze me how much vitriol is spewed over broadhead debates when people still shoot Matthews bows since Bowtech came into the world. Talk about not getting the memo that something better than bronze has been discovered...
One thing I will say about threads like this. When they turn to stuff like this one.. I do stop posting and at times clicking on them. I do see a pattern with some guys on certain things. Funny how I've never met many of you but know how many of your posts are going to go.
Back to the origin of the thread. Mossyhorn, if your still around id like to answer your questions concerning quartering shots. The rearward designed mechanical are great for quartering shots. You dont get any kick out like over the top or jack knifing style Mechanical heads can sometimes cause. This is again where mechanicals have come a long way. The rearward designs allows the head tip and ferrule to enter well over and inch prior to blade contact with the hide which in turns keeps the arrow on path and reduces chances for deflection. The blades are fully open prior to entry so both entrance and exits holes are big. Some over the top heads have a tendency to open after they pass the hide and others are design not to open until after it passes the hide leaving a small hole on entrance. I have not taken a head on shot yet but I certainly would with a Killzone head if the shot was presented to me under 20 yards and i believe the outcome would be devastating. I will caution from experience, I shoot a heavy arrow as Mechanical heads are wide which in turn need more momentum for passthroughs shots. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Mossyhorn- I do believe that your shot angles may be some what more limited shooting a mechanical vs. fixed, but a lot of that depends on what you deem to be an acceptable shot angle/shot to begin with, and what your set up is. I have never taken a frontal shot. I have had dozens of chances on bulls, and in some of the cases in hind sight maybe I should have. Several of them I could have easily reached out and smacked in the nose with my arrow. After much research and thought I do believe I will take the next frontal shot that presents itself at less than ten yards, but I won't mess with it beyond that. I choose not take super steep quartered away back rib type shots either, and some of that has to do with my choice of a little larger cut diameter expandable, and my 28" draw length. I also don't shoot any distance (in hunting), I have never needed to shoot past 40 yards to take any of my animals. I believe that your being given a special season, lots of times before anyone else, and or while the animal's general awareness is compromised by breeding, it just shouldn't be all that difficult to get within "archery" range. Most of this is just my un willingness to take chances with how an animals dies, and my ability to recover said animal for proper and full use, but some small amount may be choosing a mechanical. You can tell a lot about a man by how he deems acceptable to take a life. All that being said there is just something about that confidence in accuracy that comes from knowing that regardless of the situation your arrow will hit where ever you put the correct pin.
Good post Elkman.
A guy has to know the plusses and minuses of his equipment no matter what it is. Most of those mech heads make a nasty big hole on soft tissue shots- and they excel at that.
When i'm shooting my recurve there are a lot of shots I won't take- even with a good penetrating head. My compound on the other hand...with a 500gr arrow and strong fixed coc head has opened up new shot opportunities for me as its a penetrating MONSTER. Now I realize many are going to give me flack for my thinking "Thats poor shot locations" but IT REALLY ISN'T if you can pound an arrow into both lungs every time.
THATS what heads like the 2 blade VPA 150 or equal do for you....they get into those vital locations from shot angles I wouldn't consider with my stickbow or a compound with mech head. Of course one still has to know anatomy and the animals body language but I have more options. Its a penetrating monster.
Edit; and I know i'm not the only one here that thinks like that....call me a secret admirer, but Big Dan has shown that collar shot on elk to be effective [between the neck and the front shoulder] I know,too- grin. I've buried a couple arrows there with elk not making it 20 yds. Thats a shot I take with my heavy compound setup at very close range...but not my recurve. I have a couple more examples that the shot police would lambast me for- but only because they have never seen the effectiveness of this type of setup.
I'm just here for the arguments. I shoot fixed.
Elkman has been consistent each time: know what your equipment does and put the arrow where it needs to go.
I took a quartering to shot this year at 32 yds only because, like Elkman, have a high amount of weight upfront, good bow "muzzle velocity", and a broadhead I knew was designed to perform on the collarbone and leg area of that shot. Had I not had these, I would not have taken the shot.
1) broadhead used - Rocky Mtn Snyper
2) poundage - Have shot and killed elk from 60 to 70 lbs
3) draw length - 28.5"
4) arrow weight - one at 385gr the rest at about 410gr
5) arrow speed - varried depending on draw weight nothing over 285 fps
6) penetration - some pass through some not, one through shoulder blade, One bad shot hit spine. All elk recovered.
7) was the elk recovered? All longest track was 400yds
8) will you use again on elk? Yes
The Rocky Mountain Snypers were a great design, and a great head. Really the first reliable expandable that didn't just destroy penetration gobbling up energy on entry/deployment. While at the same time providing acceptable durability and a wicked ability to kill quick and provide great blood trails due to full diameter entry holes. They were the true pioneers and the beginning of Rage.
ELKMAN Actually IMO the Rocky Mountain Snyper was a better designed head prior to the new blade retention that Rage finally put on their heads now to keep the blades close in flight. Im still not a fan of the slip cam system but the Rage are much better than they were.
I don't totally disagree, but they are VERY similar over all, and the Rages were a product/result of the Snyper. (Actually bought them)
I shot a bull with my Bowtech 30" 73lb 450gr 280 fps Grim Reaper 100 Gr I got pass thrus 2 of the 3 arrows I put in him. Died within 50 yards no blood trail needed but lots on the ground. I'd shoot them again but with the 125grains.
Well-strung- What Bowtech is that? That seems awfully slow for your specs.
That is slow, I get almost that out of my 60#, 28" experience
I think the whole "energy-robbing" theory of OTT expandables is a myth. Rocket Steelheads outpenetrate almost any other head I've shot and I had good results with Grim Reapers as well, but I'm a Steelhead guy. Buddy of mine loves Grim Reapers and has lots of happy endings. No penetration issues at all.
Just go try to push one of each type through a wet hide and then tell us what you think! LOL! (Of equal diameter of course)
Once heard a guy with a medical background say that knives (aka blades) cut via a slicing motion and not a pressing motion. That being the case, he said that a quick slicing motion produces the best cut. So, does this mean that a faster flying arrow will make a better cut? Just wondering.
APauls, I agree. I'm a 125 grain Steelhead guy and the blades open so easily, I can't imagine them not being deadly on elk. To me the Spitfires do take some effort to flip the blades, but the Steelheads, hardly any. On whitetails, I've never had better penetration since I started shooting Steelheads and I shot fixed heads for many, many years.
I also agree with Apauls, that the steelhead is one of the best penetrating heads out there. I also can't think of a time that one of my steetheads lost a blade. I've been stooting them for I guess 20+ years now.
Elkman, not sure if you were talking about the steelhead when you made this comment,, "Just go try to push one of each type through a wet hide and then tell us what you think! LOL! (Of equal diameter of course)"
Thanks to those that answered my earlier question. Here's another... in looking at some of these heads, I'm seeing a cut diameter of 1 1/8 inch, or something close to that. While others I'm seeing a bit larger like 1 1/2 inch. So with these smaller cut diameters, which are no larger than a fixed head, is there any other advantage other than accuracy???
Some may say that a 2 blade 2 inch head may cut something that a 3 blade 1 1/8 head may miss. I think that a 1 1/8 inch head with 3 blades as opposed to 2 blades will cut more that a 2 blade 2 inch head. I believe that a 3 blade 1 1/8 head with shorter blades are stronger. I also believe that a 3 blade 1 1/8 head with it swept-back blades will out penetrate 2 inch 2 blade with less swept-back blades. Its not just about which head will poke a hole through the skin better, but which head has less resistance when cutting through tissue and organs. Thats why heads such as the steelhead penetrate so well with its 1 1/8 inch cut and swept-back blades. And no there no advantage to a 1 1/8 mech to a 1 1/8 fixed other than accuracy
Penetration depends on a number of factors:
The width of cut and number of cuts (wider cuts < narrow cuts, 3 cuts < 2 cuts),
The surface area of the blades,
Energy lost to deploying blades,
Energy lost to bending or breaking blades on bone contact (The bull I shot 2 years ago had .75" thick ribs that would damage most blades),
Resistance to cutting (sharpness, cutting tip vs punching through with a chisel point),
A fixed compact broadhead like the Iron Will Broadhead will maximize penetration.
Embryoklahoma X2. Fixed for me as well. I don't mind living in yesterday as my freezer is packed to the rim with yummy fixed head vpa elk goodness again from Sept.
As is mine, just like it has been the last 26 years. All that good 2 blade Rage sustenance just waiting there to be devoured. I'm going to go pull some meat RIGHT NOW! ;-)
"Thanks to those that answered my earlier question. Here's another... in looking at some of these heads, I'm seeing a cut diameter of 1 1/8 inch, or something close to that. While others I'm seeing a bit larger like 1 1/2 inch. So with these smaller cut diameters, which are no larger than a fixed head, is there any other advantage other than accuracy???"
I have hell broadhead tuning. Every year I fight with it for about a month. I can get broadheads to hit with-in a couple of inches of field tips but not right on. After that my expandable head and field tips are right on out to 70 yds. I try all the tricks and just can't get fixed heads to hit the same as field tips I don't want to have to change my sight every time I want to switch between field tips and fixed heads. I think there are a lot more people like me that are just not willing to admit it. It isn't a big deal. In all my shooting there is no difference on penetration, reliability or durability between fixed and Mechanical. Most people who say there are have never really used a Mechanical head on an animal.
DO NOT use your broad head to put a band aid on your lack of tune. It will never result in your set ups full potential. What bow model are you shooting, and what is your set up?
It hasn't mattered what bow. I have shot a lot of different set ups with the same result. Right now an Athens Judgement, 70lb , 28.5" DL, goldtip Velocity 300 weighing 427gr. To be honest. getting Fixed head with in an inch or two of field tips is pretty well tuned. just not perfect.
Not elk related..but I will say this.
I am not closed minded to using expandables..but every time I have tried them. I had bad results. Maybe it was just a fluke. I tried and ulmer edge on a javalena and made what looked like a perfect shot on a big boat. Good blood trail, but the boar was still alive and I had to finish it off in a cave.
I used a rage on a mule deer. 37 yard shot perfect mid body behind the shoulder. Deer stayed alive way to long. Finally recovered it days later. Inspected the wound and shot placement couldn't have been better. It was like the head didn't deploy.
So I am Leary of them. I know they work for a lot of guys but I have just had some bad luck I guess.
I've been shooting ramcats lately. They fly just like a field point. But are open and ready to cut.
Ermine- The Ulmer is POS in my opinion because it's not sharp, but with all due respect I can GUARANTEE you didn't make a "perfect" shot on that Mule deer with the Rage. And you know why? Just go take a look at my profile and you will see why. Now I'm not telling you to use an expandable, in fact I couldn't care less, but if your going to make those kind of statements I've got to call you out on them. Your going need internal photographic proof for me to believe that one. I have seen to many poorly hit animals only recovered because they WERE shot with a Rage, and I have watched hundreds of them crash in sight when hit perfectly, and I have NEVER seen one lost on a "perfect hit"...
Hey, mech heads work no doubt....but to claim an over the top mech head has as good of penetration as a tapered fixed design is just ludicrous.
Anybody ever tried to drag their skinning knife across the outside of an animal? The keratin in hair dulls knives easily. Why would you want a thin over the top mech BH's blades chopping through that hair/hide on impact?
Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence will suggest otherwise...
I have had overall better penetration with an over the top Spitfire than with fixed. Most of my past heads have been larger, 1 3/16+ and vented. A bunch of those vented heads had hair/tissue in them when I picked them out of the cavity.
question for mech shooters why when I watch hunting shows, does 1/2 the hit with mechanicals only penetrate 6-8" on whitetails?
it happens at least 50% of the time
stealthy, how come I can blow a Spitfire mechanical right through a moose? Or dozens of bears, or goats or deer? My hunting partner does the same. So, yeah, I'd like to know why those guys don't get good penetration to.
Maybe it's not the broadhead???
How come on 1/2 the hunting shows I watch they talk right into the camera and tell me that they are going to take the shot, and then turn and shoot without spooking the deer that is under their tree stand? Half the time there is a thread on here it delves into how these hunting shows aren't real life, how the host/hunter/whoever isn't very good, doesn't know how to shoot, or tune, etc, etc. Now all of a sudden we are trying to glean real world info from said tv show?
Whaaaat? I've seen a man fly and turtles talk on tv and now you're telling me it's not real! What's next? No Easter bunny?
This thread started with 8 basic questions and no matter how I read it, not one of them was , is a mechanical better than a fixed. My how we digress.
Agreed Bruce. To suggest otherwise would be a fools errand.
Stealthycat- I wonder the same thing! All the time! The only thing I can figure is those rolly polly, 100 yard walkin, big breakfast eatin, tree sittin, over dramatic flat landers are also only able to draw 50 pounds! Feel free to flame away. (No seriously, go ahead I deserve it) LOL! ;-)
jstehhens61: every thread that mentions mechanicals will eventualy go down the same path. And usually steered and propelled by the same folks.
I only have experience with two mechanicals, the old Rage and NAP Spitfires. The Spitfires, I've been using for many years and the Rages I bought on hype.. I didn't like they way the blades came loose and just used them up on bears. And one leftover I used on an impala because my PH was a rabid Rage fan.
The over the top Spitfires have been absolutely one hundred percent reliable. Myself and a couple of hunting buddies have used them on a great variety of animals, including several moose, with superb results.
One advantage to their design is the blades are never exposed nor contact any surface that might dull the blade. Beendare pointed out that hair dulls a blade very quickly. All fixed and rear deploy heads must cut/chop/contact hair on the way in. With an OTT head, the blade tips are through the hair and open on the hide. So if you really want the sharpest blade possible slicing meat and organ, why use a design that will be dulled just before entry? It seems the only thing we can all agree on is "..razor sharp!!.."
None of the above is meant to convert anyone to my choice of head even though I can claim plenty of actual real life evidence to make the claim. You see, I don't care what you use.
But for Pete's sake, quit trying to superimpose your perceived notions onto my experience, as though yours is somehow more credible than mine. Much of the negative emotion against certain heads is often gained from listening to hater's camp fire banter and BS. The next time the story gets retold, it gets exaggerated again, until we have the ".. well my neighbor's, uncle's neighbor's paper's boy's dad had a Rage bounce back on a cottontail and he pulls a perfectly tuned, eighty pound bow shooting six hundred grain arrows...".
The blame the broadhead cry is often nothing more than an ointment that hunters rub on to ease the pain of making a bad shot. Much easier to rant to your buddies about the giant buck you'd have hanging if it weren't for that stupid broadhead, than to admit you screwed up.
Pick your gear, pick your shots and then own the results. Good or bad.
While the Spitfire "feet" may push some hair away, my experience is the blades do cut some hair on entrance just as any other head. That aspect has never been a concern as I see no way any broadhead can enter an animal without cutting hair.
stealthycat, the reason for no pass through is low poundage, huge cutting diameter, bad cutting angle, and light arrows. Either that or they are just such amazing shots that they hit the off-shoulder every time. The good news is they typically find their deer easily anyways (unless its a little far back and they gotta back out till morning, which seems to be common).
Does any sharp broad head really dull that much when shot once through hair and hide of an elk or deer to not be able to do the job the rest of the way? That just sounds insane to me.
If I make a 57 yard frontal shot on a bedded whitetail with a recurve and mech head, will I go straight to hell?
^^^Depends on where you post it. If it's kept in the woods where it happens, then no.
You are already hellbound if you are shooting a mechanical out of a recurve. Shooting a 57 yard frontal on a bedded whitetail gets you double hell.
Midwest, if you posted it your hell would be being praised by one group saying you were a great shot and lynched by the other for taking such a shot. If you wounded it, no one would ever know because no one ever loses an animal that they shoot at long yardages or take with a frontal shot. Never saw a post or thread by anyone that did. Frontal shots threads, everyone seems to be successful because that is all who post about it. Ever wonder why you don't hear about a thread...took a 57 yard shot and lost it....or Frontal disappointment at 57 yards, no one would dare admit to that and suffer the consequences.
Bowfreak asked a really good question that, had folks just focused on answering it, might have provided some really good info in considering whether/not to use a mechanical on elk. I KNEW it was going to devolve into hyperbole. Only posting this non-response to the question well after the fur was flying.
Question: has anybody tested mechanicals through actual bone? Not stuff "like" bone, like 1/2" plywood etc, but just pounding them through bone and seeing what part if anything of the BH survived. Seems like someone could centerpunch a bunch of cattle ribs and get some equivalency to the big ribs on an elk.
Why the need to test on cattle bones when they've been tested hundreds of times on real live elk that are now real dead elk?
Here is a photo of the results of a vertical rib hit from my 2013 bull. The broad head hit ribs vertically on both entry and exit. (not the greatest of luck) The arrow did not blow clean through, but it just hung up by the fletching on the exit and fell out as he was leaving. The bull went all of about 60 yards and crashed. As you can see the head is in beautiful condition and none the worse for wear. I would say that's fairly comprehensive answer to said question... ;-)
"stealthycat, the reason for no pass through is low poundage, huge cutting diameter, bad cutting angle, and light arrows"
Thank you for saying what others refuse to.
So when the shots hit heavier bones, the light arrows shed energy very quickly coupled with a large cut that uses energy ... and you get poor penetration.
I believe that's exactly the reason and people love their fast and light and mech and they go out west elk hunting with the same setups and the results aren't good too often.
my argument all along has been that bowhunters use setups that work great when shots go great ... but when shots don't go good, the setups underperform. Other than not shooting as flat, heavy arrows and COI non-mech heads have no disadvantages while at the same time offering better penetration, more durability without the chances of the head not working properly.
I honestly think hitting a rib dead center is easier on a broadhead than say hitting a rib or any other bone with a blade that only hits bone say half way out on the blade. A blade that hits bone dead center is going to start to penetrate right next to the heads ferrule, which is the strongest part of the blade.
Anyone that wants to send me your favorite broadhead I will shoot them through cow ribs and take the pics to show what happened.
"Other than not shooting as flat, heavy arrows and COI non-mech heads have no disadvantages while at the same time offering better penetration, more durability without the chances of the head not working properly."
Classic. One needs to remove the heavy arrow from the mech vs fixed. There are so many different variations of fixed and mech heads, I can't believe that people can make absolute statements on fixed vs mech. You simply can't! For example, take 100 arrows tipped with thunderheads, and 100 arrows tipped with Rocket Steelheads of the same weight and I would have no issue throwing money down and saying a Rocket Steelhead will out-penetrate, be more accurate, and more durable than a Thunderhead. And both are great heads. I only tout the head from first hand experience. But to me, the days of saying fixed this mech this are over. You simply can't lump them all of one kind into a group.
I've often wondered if the reason the steelhead penetrates so devilishly well is because there is no vent in the blade to hang up on items. No idea, but I shot a Rage for once this fall and killed a gutted 213# whitetail in like 40 yards dead as well. Too many good heads out there to make absolutes.
Nothing against the Rocket but isn't it a small cutting diameter? Just curious why even use it if fixed are same or bigger?
Looks like it would be a good broadhead.
I've seen a few head designs both short fixed and mech that chop hair like this on the way in....
IMO, this isn't optimal. The fixed heads with more taper don't chop their way in like this photo....
I totally understand what your getting at ^^^ __ But the Rages chop hair like that and kill faster than ANY other broad head I've ever used, or seen in use. Just not sure how much weight I would put on "how much hair your cutting" on entry. I'm A LOT more concerned with how fast a broad head puts an animal on the deck, and the blood trail they create... JMHO
spike78, it is small diameter. 1 1/8 on the 100 grain and the 125s were 1 1/4". But they are three blade heads so probably as much cutting surface as a 2" two blade. But that aside, I believe they offer the best of both worlds. They fly like a field point, are incredibly durable, and penetrate like a fixed head. If you can get your fixed heads to fly as good as a Steelhead, congrats! But you'd have to be very good at broadhead tuning to get a fixed to fly as good as a Steelhead.
I will say .... I just got into a Xpedition Xplorer bow .... same 402 gr arrow and same 62# draw weight ( I was shooting a Drenalin )
This bow shoots 294 fps and drive the arrow at least 12" deeper into my foam target. Crazy difference in this bow compared to the Drenalin, and that much more power along with a Hypodermic +P I'm very interested to shoot on deer.
Would I shoot it for elk? My gut still says 500 grains and a COI head would be way, way better, but I'm impressed so far
stealthy, what is your draw length?
Stealthy! Wow, welcome to the dark side! LOL JK. Shoot a deer with that set up then add another 50 to 75 grains to the front end of your arrow provided it's stiff enough and kill an elk with that head.
I'm sold on the bow - its way better than the Mathews Dreanlin. I'm not sold on 400 grains and hate the thought of a Rage Hypodermic +P actually working well
But .... that was part of the deal when I got this setup, to try these new light, fast and exceptionally high powered (compared to 5-7 years ago) bows
Spike - to me the advantage to shooting a mech is plainly the forgiveness. At the moment of truth form can suffer. I use em for deer when it gets cold up here in Manitoba, because your form will suffer. It's practically guaranteed. Also less wind planing but I wouldn't be all up in arms about that one.
I hit and lost my bull this year when I thought I placed a perfect shot with a fixed head. Maybe next time I'll use a steelhead - who knows. My buddy killed a cranker bull on a fontal with a Rage +P hypodermic. Many means to the same end.
As far as "mojo" there's just something about the Steelhead for me. Everything I point it at dies in 40 yards and bleeds like a sonofagun. Just been my luck with em. Had a buddy try them, lose a mule deer, and gave me the rest he didn't use. To each their own.
Dang stealthy, this is certainly a sure sign of the Apocalypse!
I second the recommendation of GotBowAz. I use a 50gr insert for a total arrow weight of 460gr. With a 26 1/2" DL, it's potent elk medicine and with your 28", it'd be even more so. With ELKMAN's track record, it's hard to argue with using the Rage, but you can't go wrong with the heavier weight pushing that Rage.
Stealthy, don't sell that Drenalin. Mine is ten years old and went from being my new, main bow, to being back up for a few others over the years. Couple years ago I put sixty pound limbs on it. This spring I took it out and blew Spitfires, on the end of 425 grain Axis shafts, through two big black bears and was looking to do the same to a grizzly. It is the only bow I've ever owned that I will never sell. Maybe because I've gotten kinda slow and relaxed just like it is.
If sixty pounds can do that with Spitfires, you will have no problem with the two blade Rage.
actually Amush I have the Xpedition and am giving away my Drenalin to someone who needs to upgrade or get into bowhunting ... passing it along
this bow, same weight, same arrows, shoot so much harder and faster its like comparing the Drenalin to a 1987 PSE Thunderflight bow - its that different.
these Hypodermic +P's .... they are the best looking Rage heads I've seen. Tip, steel ferrule, not a radical sweep/angle on blades, rear deploy, thicker blades and not a super wide cut .... they're interesting is all I'm saying !!
I'm amazed you're getting that kind of speed with a 28" draw at 62# and 402 gr. arrow!
why would you be amazed . that is right about what that bow should shoot for its IBO rating.
I've killed 2 elk w/ Tekken II's (plus an antelope and a couple of whitetails). Penetration was great. On one the arrow stopped in the shoulder on the opposite side of the chest cavity. The other was a complete pass-through, didn't even seemed the arrow slowed down on it's way through. I liked those Tekkens, but they stopped making them, go figure.
I shoot a 68lb bow. 28 inch draw length. I can't remember the rest of the specs right off hand, but the arrows I use are the basic Cabela's Carbon Hunters. I've had really good luck with them.
In the absence of Tekken II's I switched to Rocket Steelheads this past season, but had a lot of hard luck and never got a shot at an elk. Maybe next year.
maybe he's like me and shooting an older bow .... I didn't chrono but my Drenalin seems 40-50 fps slower - crazy difference
I read a review of 12 bows, the Xpedition bow was tied for fastest at like 298 fps .... and some of those 2017 models were in the 270's so 20-25 fps difference is a lot too
I can see myself shooting closer to 500 grains next year out of this bow .... gads it would hit like a sledgehammer, bigger 3 blade head ... makes me giggle to think about it.
I'm shooting in the 270's with my BT D350 but I'm shooting 465 gr arrow. Didn't think the 60 gr. difference would make THAT much of a speed difference but it sure does. The calculator shows I'd be in the 290's with a 400 gr arrow.
Enjoy your Xpedition.
That extra weight up front really does make a difference for any of you that may be on the fence on tweaking your FOC...
The 50 gr. brass HP Easton inserts fit the 349 ACCs perfectly. Great arrow combo.
