Irony of it all...
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
This is a Serious Question. It is hypothetical but I want serious answers that are grounded in fact. Here is the situation: 1-You live in a state that allows over 100 days of hunting with various equipment. 2- Your buck limit is two and applies to any buck with antlers above the hairline. 3- You have online check in and the deer must be checked in the day it is killed. You have a quite liberal doe limit.
Here are the questions: 1- How many hunters do you know who would quit hunting once their bucks tags are filled? 2-How many hunters do you think would either lie about or just not check in a third buck, say a small spike killed by mistake or the biggest buck they have ever seen? 3-How accurate do you think think the data collected by this system would be?
I am looking for honest, serious answers.
Will answer when a chance, but the whole key to good buck management is a one buck limit regardless of method of kill...
Zbone- please understand, this is not about buck management. The hypothetical question has nothing to do with managing for any sex or age class. It is about collecting data. The crux is, How accurate do you think the data would be when you add in all the above parameters?
In most states the deer tend to concentrate in areas of food, cover and low predation. Additionally, weather and disease can play a major role in certain areas and control the herd numbers in some years. There is no one size fits all for most entire states, hence all the divisiveness as to what is right and wrong. Wisconsin and Michigan are two glaring examples of prime private farm country in some areas, high wolves in others, and winter kill in still yet other areas. Public lands with plenty of hunters in easily accessible areas. Also, game animals like deer and elk tend to congregate on private lands where farming practices oftentimes create excellent food sources and hunter numbers are controlled, and occasionally animals managed and cared for. In most areas, public lands are unmanaged and hunting pressure is strong with little regard for the resource numbers, just "fill my tag" attitude. Tough to have a management plan that fits the entire state and keeps individual hunter objectives satisfied.
Sorry Bowriter, I did not fully understand your question.
One buck limit here, I can't imagine the disaster public land hunting would be if there were more tags than that. Question 3 - Various types of reporting systems factor in a margin of error obtained from hunter studies so that data should be out there. States all use these in their statistical analysis/harvest estimates. Questions 1 and 2 are parsing out individual hunter motivations and culture which is difficult if not impossible to gauge. I know some pure meat hunters both lawful and lawless; I know some pure trophy hunters; I know some guys who just want to kill their limit and various mixtures of all of the above. So many different factors to even take a stab at it but I know myself as well as the dozen or so close friends and family I hunt with all operate within the law.
1) I think that many hunters will not report so they can keep on hunting for a bigger buck! 2) Like #1, a percentage of the hunters will lie or continue to do what they please. 3) I think there is an error factor. I'm sure the F&G dept. does some math to figure out the real kill by some means.
I don't think the data will be perfect. I suspect that 20% of hunters are hard core and serious and follow the rules; meaning that they will pass a smaller buck to hopefully get a lager. Another percentage is not hard core at all, maybe 30-40% kill one or two and they're satisfied and done deer hunting for the year. The remaining 40-50% are a mix and are will not report so they can kill another one, maybe bigger, or maybe just more meat. Obviously, the %'s are just SWAG's IMHO.
Here in NYS you are required to report a kill within 7 days I think. The DEC checks butcher shops and records the tag information; then checks to see if the kill was reported. They develop a percentage of how many report. They then use this data to calculate the "kill" for the year. Its likely not as simple as this, but the take is not an actual count or reports.
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It would be nothing but speculation to answer any of the questions so I'll just say the hunters I hang with would follow the law.
Yes, elk yinzer, most hunters do abide by the law. Keep in mind, this is hypothetical. It is imaginary. You cannot apply what your state does. I am asking, what do you think the value of the data would be in terms of accuracy, given the above parameters and using your knowledge of hunters in your area. Again, this has nothing to do with herd management.
1. Not many would quit after getting 2 bucks but then again I don't hunt with many trophy hunters. Most guys are like me who have families who like to eat venison.
2. I'm sure there is some misreporting but like others said I am sure the F&G calculates that into their overall allocation. BTW Not just tags - it's just human nature. Look at Halloween when people leave buckets of candy out. Some take the right amount and some dump the bowl in their bag.
3. I bet the system is about 90% accurate. Here in NC we have online/phone registration. I think it's a lot more accurate than check stations. You get a much larger sample and most people are honest.
NY state has a three deer limit with two being bucks;if you purchase all the tags.Extra doe tags not included.This is archery,muzzle-loader and rifle.I will use myself as example.No deer shot during archery or early MZ(buck only) season;buck taken Nov.13 with rifle so I am done until late MZ season but can fill any unused tags.We report all of our deer taken but doubt if 50% of the hunters in NY do.No check stations ,reporting is required but no check station(Northern NY).
1.0 2.small percentage but wouldn't admit it. 3. Not very
Many have wives check in deer etc. I assume the number that legally fill tags then illegally continue to hunt is less than the amount of straight out deer that are poached.
I know all of those deer are poached but here in WV we have people that have never checked a deer in their life.
I still think I answered your question, but knowing that you are in TN and what I personally know about Appalachia, there are very likely some geographic areas within that state with a more of an ingrained cultural proclivity toward breaking the law when it comes to wildlife. So I would say in those areas in would be tougher to obtain statistically significant reporting and compliance with those regulations.
LOL at elk yinser. Sad but true, that's why there is moonshine.
I have no idea. In Texas, we have no reporting, so I've often wondered where TPWD gets their harvest numbers. We do have tags on our license and a log to fill out on the back, but as I've not been checked by a warden in years, that seems to be worthless. Most of the deer I kill, I could simply quarter, take home, butcher it myself and never tag it. I don't do that, but I'm certain many people do. So I guess what I think is, that the harvest numbers are just guesses.
There will always be some that will take advantage of the system.
NM recently did something similar with a print your tag off and go hunting. No carcass tags issued anymore so someone can shoot a deer on opening day, fill out the required info on the license, then go home print off another and go out the next day. No check stations and no reporting required until after the hunt is over. This only works if a game warden doesn't check you when doing a random road check point.
Here in NJ you can hunt over 150 days with a 6 buck limit and unlimited does. On line check in of kills. Guys who butcher deer must be given a check in number from the state to make the kill legal. I would bet that more deer are legally reported with the current on line system than with the checking stations of the past. I am sure that there are hunters who don't bother checking them in, how many, who knows,
#1... the ones I know would quit hunting bucks, but if there were still does to tag, they'd continue hunting.
#2... the people I hang around and hunt with would have no reason to lie about it. If they did accidentally shoot a spike... I don't know.
#3... Accuracy of this system? It would be a guess, but I'd think they would only get 60-70% accuracy do to shady/unethical hunters... still a guess.
For the record, our check in and buck/doe bag limit is similar to the one you describe.
"I want serious answers that are grounded in fact."
How is anyone going to know the answer to this in fact? You'd have to know what everyone else is doing. No one person could give you an answer with a decent sample size.
You've pretty much described IL. I don't know any guys who are poaching extra bucks.
If tags are available and does are plentiful in our hunting area, we might hunt does after having tagged out on bucks, but we don't fill doe tags just because they're available.
I don't know what percentage poachers make up, but I tend to think that poachers will poach regardless of the system. Might there be some who would think telecheck would be easier to get away with poaching? Maybe. I think the ease of not calling is pretty close to the same as not going to a check station.
Information about your deer, wildlife sightings and hunting time is gathered. I would hope that hunters respond with accuracy.
I have no doubt that some people are dirtbags, but I like telecheck. Especially for early season hunts when it can be very warm. I like being able to register my deer and care for the meat immediately instead of driving around with it on a hot day.
This is a difficult thing to pinpoint. Going back to NM, to give you an idea, a point restriction was initiated one year for mule deer, three point (three legal tines on at least one antler) or better . There were dozens of fork horns dead and left to the crows laying around...
Here in eastern VA we are allowed three bucks and three does during over 3 months and checking is done online or by phone. I know that many organized clubs "group/party tag" their deer, which is illegal here. There is probably an equal number of people who don't feel the need to even check their kills. Big game animals and fair chase hunting simply isn't highly regarded by many hunters. Game wardens rarely enforce the laws. Some of the older hunters honestly believe they are doing the farmers a favor by shooting EVERY deer that they can, and expect the farmers to thank them.
To answer your question I would guess that 20-30% of deer killed go unchecked in eastern VA. Our reported harvests have dropped in last couple of years and this makes it impossible to know if its due to a lack of reporting or from EHD.
Must be talking about Oklahoma That is exactlly how it is here.
I would say not too accurate. In NY we have a reporting system and I know very few folks who actually report their kills. I believe most use the proper tags and do not take more deer then allowed but as far as reporting kills, very few. Shawn
When doing an internship years ago, we correlated a 30% check in compliance rate from previously checked deer. So per 100 deer checked by us we had apx 30% of the hunter comply and complete the registration after our actual check. We also suspected that its was a slightly higher percentage then would take place if hunter didn't check the deer( this estimate was was appx a 5% margin of error). However that was Pre phone/ internet use for registration. I would suspect that it would be slightly higher then a 30% compliance at this time.
So using that info as back round i would answer the questions as follows:
1- How many hunters do you know who would quit hunting once their bucks tags are filled? I believe a majority 90% would quit IF they had two bucks checked in. However I foresee hunters not checking second bucks in and still hunting. 2-How many hunters do you think would either lie about or just not check in a third buck, say a small spike killed by mistake or the biggest buck they have ever seen? i think its more likely that would check a buck in vs lie about one that the did check.
3-How accurate do you think think the data collected by this system would be? not very accurate at all. Unless there was a control that determined the margin of error vs a known sample.
DNR has % not checked figured out and adjusts totals accordingly.
1. I feel as though all the bow hunters I "know" would quit. Do you want gun hunters answered also? 2. There are a few who wouldn't report an accidental spike kill I'm sure. It depends on the severity of punishment for that example. Probably a few of those same people that would simply not report an enormous buck. I feel like there would be additional people though that wouldn't report the giant buck. Hard to use those two examples side by side. All this is based on hearsay and gut feelings. 3. I'd guess around 75% accurate, but honestly who knows.
It was always a treat to be at the bow/gun shop when some deer came in, likewise it was cool to be checking one it when there was an audience. Yes it was an inconvenience in some instances but it was a necessary evil. Now its a phone call and a hand written paper tag, no good old metal take to follow that rack to the grave.
It seems game violations are more of a hassle for the courts esp when the penalties in no way rival the crime. Taking hunting privileges away from poachers doesn't cripple nor hinder future poaching. Bottom line is I don't think the Law really cares as much as we think they do.
1. Not very many. My hunting friends love to hunt. Buck or doe does not make any difference. We have similar season and buck limit here in Oklahoma.
2. Not sure but the ones who do lie would also cheat or lie on any other reporting method you could come up with. The system doesn't make you a liar or a cheat.
3. Data collected is probably better than nothing and has a margin of error built in. I think most deer hunters want to report and get accurate harvest data.
I'd say by "seat of the pants estimate" , that 25% will "work the system" and not check the spike or forky, to preserve a buck tag. Meat hunters will keep hunting, while horn guys will quit when tags run out. I see about 50/50 meat vs rack hunters in my area (actually 25/50/25 with the middle half being a bit of both) I have NO scientific basis, just impressions from talking/observing
That's Wisconsin's EXACT system, other than the deer has to be registered by 5 pm the following day. It's in it's second year of call in registry. First year of not having to tag the animal if not left unattended. I don't like it.
You said this is hypothetical and imaginary but you want facts. That is a tough one. I've heard people say lots of small bucks are shot by mistake and left in the woods and I hear from DNRs that it is not an issue. Neither position comes from facts. It is all speculation.
Hunters will push the law. Party hunting is legal in MN but the hunter who is sharing his or her tag is supposed to be present and actually hunting, but that law is abused terribly. I remember when I lived in MI, the U.P. had a 1 buck limit. When they finally went to two bucks, the number or woman hunters declined significantly (party hunting was illegal). Hmmmmmm!!
They say, and it is true, the true measure of a man's integrity is what he does when no one else is looking.
To answer your question, the people that I hunt with will keep hunting after their buck tags are filled, but they won't kill more bucks. They would hunt for does. But honestly, the guys I hang with would quit shooting when they had enough venison in the freezer.
I think it depends on the state. For example I was amazed when I made the Pronghorn hunt with BB - the taxidermist and meat processor in Utah would not accept my buck without me personally bringing it to them and they recorded my license number. I hunt in MS and LA and had never heard of such a thing.
Plus in MS so few people care that baiting deer is illegal that I have had a touchy time explaining myself in leases, i.e., "no I don't want to hunt near a feeder." I generally feel I am the only one. I am told that the game warden does not care about corn feeders, and I suspect they are right about that.
However, based on reported "Success rates" it appears that the average hunter takes less than one deer per year (please correct me if this is wrong), so the percentage that take several and under-report may be small.
So although many seem to ignore game laws for their own convenience, I don't personally see a large number of deer not being reported. Likewise, in answer to your question 3, in leases I have been in, still over 80 % accurate because there just have not been that many instances where bucks over the limit went un-reported.
To the letter of the law would be my answer.
Here in MT, a 4" or less spike is a doe, I typically fill my doe tag with a small spike, Never bigger than a spike, but 4" tests my integrity.
oz
Oklahoma is just a you describe except a buck must have at least 3" above the hairline. We started online check 6-7 years ago and it's easy but I like the old check stations. Just about everyone I know would check all bucks and quit hunting when they filled there tags. I don't think people are probably killing more bucks now. Before the got tags for everyone in the house but I think harvest results are probably skewed by people that just don't check them.
1) The majority
2.) The minority
3.)Unless there is an incentive ( or perhaps a penalty for non-compliance),not very effective......if an email follow-up was sent to every licensed hunter at the end of the season (asking specific questions re: tags filled, etc), it might improve the accuracy to some extent.....some states withhold issuing certain types of future hunting tags to people that do not complete an end-of-season survey....that might work the best.....if you don''t take the time to fill out the questionnaire, you don't get the next year's tag to do it again.....pretty powerful motivation to comply for most people.
Here are the questions: 1- How many hunters do you know who would quit hunting once their bucks tags are filled? 2-How many hunters do you think would either lie about or just not check in a third buck, say a small spike killed by mistake or the biggest buck they have ever seen? 3-How accurate do you think think the data collected by this system would be? 1. very few 2. almost all of them lie 3. not even close, maybe 1/3rd these are just my guesses with no evidence to support my claim.
#1 70-80? of the hunters I know would still continue to hunt does if they tagged out on bucks. The rest would call it we quits for the season or duck hunt. #2 I'm afraid from the number of trespassers, treestand and game cam thieves, poachers, (all "hunters"), tag swappers, and guys who couldn't or wouldn't pass up a nice third buck it would be around 50?. I base this mainly from the different threads I've read here than first hand knowledge. #3 I could only guess the final tally around 75? accurate.
I would guess less than 60% comply. Probably less than that. This is simply based on many conversations with hunters over the years. Many of those tempted to shoot more than the legal limit either don't converse with those that follow the law, or only associate with those that think like they do.
Think of your state bowhunting organizations. Typically, members of said organizations will follow the law. But how many hunters join? 1 in 10?
It is unfortunate how many people will circumvent the law when they can.
In MT you are only required to check whitetail if you drive by a check station, the number of hunting areas accessible without passing a check station is most of them. I think "hope" that most are honest and fill their tags and are done wether checked or not checked. I know most times my deer never travel I shoot, butcher, and freeze them at the cabin. They never leave the property unless it is in a cooler to go to my son's freezer at college. I cut my tags and put them in the freezer with the meet or on the antlers so all kills are legitimate. I still believe most people are basically good. 90% comply oz
Any data collection that relies on voluntary or self reporting is general or approximate at best.
I believe most hunters follow the law, or at least the spirit of it. Whether or not that carries over into DEC reporting is anyone's guess
Any data collection that relies on voluntary or self reporting is general or approximate at best.
I believe most hunters follow the law, or at least the spirit of it. Whether or not that carries over into DEC reporting is anyone's guess
As mentioned, your criteria is exactly what we have in Oklahoma. I will respond for myself. I only bowhunt. This season I took two bucks on November 9th and 13th,both were lawfully checked into the system within hours of the kills. I wouldn't think of shooting another buck. I still have four does tags in my pocket but I don't need the meat after processing the two bucks, so I will likely partake in nature watching as I return to the woods. Following the lawful requirements is just part of the deal for me.
Here in RI our bow season runs from Mid Sept to the end of January. We are allowed 2 bucks and 4 does. We mail in our kill cards within 24 hours. This mail in program has been in effect for 2 years. What is interesting is that in those 2 years, the 3-4 towns that have historically had the highest reported kill numbers, has dropped by hundreds! This is based on actual data available from our DEM reports. Now, some may say that this is due to a drop in deer numbers or hunter numbers. Personally, I suspect that it is due to the fact that hunters are either forgetting to mail their cards in or just not doing it. I would suspect that this would happen with an electronic version of reporting. It's hard to determine how many are doing it deliberately. One would like to think that most hunters obey the rules, but we all know that is not always the case. I have heard some folks say...there are too many deer so I take what I can or I pay for tags, who cares how many I use or even, I filled a tag that another guy did not so no harm done.
Just wondering bowriter, is your state considering a change in current check in policy? Is that the reason for your inquiry?
I like the fact that I can mail in my kill card. I also realize that some folks will not. I have no clue as to how state officials can gauge the accuracy of their statistics.
I've never hunted a state (all western states) that required a physical check in, so I'm not sure what the point would be anyway. A few I've hunted do a survey after the season, a few that you're supposed to check in online, the Lanai hunt here you turn in your permit with your hunt info on it when you're done with your hunt. CA bear hunt you are supposed to physically check in your bear, they want to take a tooth and age it, etc..... I never have yet having eaten two tags.
Honestly, I don't think it makes a bit of difference, physical check in or online. You do still use tags and have to have a valid one in the field? If the person is going to cheat.... it is easy enough to cheat with either system. Not tagging things would have the same result with any survey system, and likely the most prevalent. In fact some who tag their animal but don't check it in might not even feel it's cheating, just too busy (or lazy) to follow what they may see as some bureaucrats idea of control or micro-management.