Let's talk Liver hit Deer
Whitetail Deer
Sure it's possible but what percentage of liver hit deer live?
Unfortunately i released two arrows at mature bucks this year and both led to un-punched tags. Deer #2 was hit right at or behind the last rib and nearly dead center as far as up and down go. The deer was almost perfectly broadside, 26 yard shot from a 20 foot high stand.
Complete pass through, the arrow was stuck in a log behind where the deer was standing. Some good red blood but it was darker than typical lung blood. No evidence of stomach or intestinal matter and no foul smell.
After the shot the deer ran appx 40 yards then slowly walked away, tail down occasionally twitching the tail. I lost him about 100 yards out due to fog/heavy moisture on my binos.
I waited 2 hours between the shot and checking the arrow, i then checked the arrow and backed out. The shot was at 7:30 am, i returned at 2:30pm with a friend and his tracking dog. Based on the shot location and the arrow i was 99% sure it was a liver hit and the deer would be found dead shortly after where i lost him.
We lost blood after 150 yards and did not recover the deer. Due to unforeseen circumstances, i have not been able to go back to the area and do a thurough grid search of the area. Blood was lost in the middle of a patch of timber appx 80 acres in size. This was on 11/16/16 and the deer has not shown up on camera since then (he was a camera favorite prior to the shot).
1. Should i have handled this track job differently? (keep in mind, coyotes are thick on our property). 2. Feel free to contribute your own experiences with liver hit deer; this was my first but i feel like i didn't push him (we never found a bedding area. 3. Do you think he is dead somewhere in that timber?
I have shot a few deer in the liver.
The first deer I ever killed with a bow, I shot at 15 yards and center punched the liver. The little buck ran about 15 yards and died. I must have hit an artery.
The rest of the liver hit deer that I have shot, always ran a short ways, 50 yards or less, then within 50 yards of that, bedded down and eventually died.
My experience is they will die, its just a matter of if you can keep from pushing them.
I have heard from others, that when you get a bedded liver shot deer out of its bed, the bleeding will be very minimal after they have bed down do to clotting.
If you did indeed hit liver, I think your buck is dead in that 80 acre patch.
Yes, body hit deer from a passthrough hit will die. I agree that from your description it was likely a liver hit. You did the right thing giving up the trail. A Deer Search dog guy told me that about 50% of liver hit deer are found dead in their first bed after 4 hours if not pushed. The other 50% need 8 hours or overnight. This discussion took place after I lost a liver hit buck about 5 years ago. No dog team was available. My buck bedded 2 times and after that (4 hour + wait time) and we could not locate the blood trail nor the carcass. A grid search was done by me the next day, but yielded no results.
I suggest: 1) if liver hit is suspected, wait 4 hours minimum; 8/overnight is better still; 2) stay completely away and do not risk pushing the animal; 3) coyotes can be a factor, but if you go early hoping to get the meat, you risk pushing the deer and losing everything anyhow; 4) my next suggestion all may not agree with, but - I think a larger cutting diameter broadhead will end things faster, all things being equal (small diameter vs large diameter).
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"Unfortunately i released two arrows at mature bucks this year and both led to un-punched tags. Deer #2 was hit right at or behind the last rib and nearly dead center as far as up and down go. The deer was almost perfectly broadside, 26 yard shot from a 20 foot high stand. "
Is #2 the one we voted was a backstrap hit from a previous thread?
A high % of liver hits are recovered......most within 200 yards if not pushed
#1 was the buck from the high hit that the general consensus was the backstrap. This is buck #2 which was shot 6 days later. I've been bowhunting 17 years and never released an arrow at a buck that i did not recover; this year it happened twice. Fortunately the other one appears live and well and hopefully i will at least locate the carcass of this buck (buck #2).
I don't know that you would hit the liver behind the last rib,Everything stated about liver hits has been said above,behind last rib is guts
Gut or liver the deer are definitely dead.
TSI: Give me a couple inches to work with but the arrow sign and lack of food particles/gut smell definitely suggests liver. Maybe i was a couple inches in front of the last rib.
I've made lots of liver hits. All very dead deer. Never lost one. Some go less than 100 yards and die quick, some go around 200 yards and take a while. They almost always die in a bed. The key is giving them time. Sometimes the bloodtrails are very sparse, so you have to check likely bedding spots when all else fails. They usually go straight for a while then take a 90 degree turn and bed down watching their back trail. If you get on them too quick and the get bumped, it becomes quite the challenge. Sorry to hear about your losses this year. It eventually happens. Sucks that it was twice in a year.
If the chest is breached its likely dead too.Sucking chest will take longer but will collapse the lungs eventually.Deers rack is laying there somewhere likely in a hollow low area or near water.
I have hit and recovered 4 liver shot deer. All were at least 12 hrs later, one was still alive, one hadn't been dead long. Always best to give them plenty of time.
Anytime I'm tracking big game the loss of blood means two things,either he's running out of blood or it's a flesh wound.All wounded animals will bed at some point.we tracked a bear this year that died 2260ft from hit by gps but ran well over 4000ft was found in 15th plus bed.Liver hit.Was not pushed.the absence of blood trail means nothing.id go look for the rack 80acres isn't much ground.
Its been 20 yrs , have not hit one there . All where easily recovered with massive blood trails . It happen when your high and back , like trying to hit a walking deer. They bleed so fast that you would think they where center heart shot . You may have hit him in a diff area. Every thing happens so fast . Had one spin and dip the shot at less then 40" this yr , loud bow , not one hair touched , boy they have great reflexes.
Shot 4 in liver and so far 100% recovered. 2 with bow, 2 with rifle. First rifle shot one bedded numerous times and was found about 300 yards from shot next day. Second Rifle shot one ran about 80 yards and piled up. The other two were one lung and liver. First one was using a two blade COC. Buck jumped and rand about 15 yards. Stood in brush for 15 minutes then collapsed dead. Arrow hit back of nbear lung and outer third of liver. Second deer shot using 4 blade head. Center hit left lung and exited low through liver. Took up trail thirty minutes later and found deer alive but unable to move about 50 yards away. Backed out and came back in less than an hour and deer was dead. I'm sure the added lung hit contributed to both deer dying faster.
Shot one quartering away a few years back. Blood soaked arrow. Deer stopped at 50 yards from shot. It looked too far back. He then trotted off. I waited 5 or 6 hours to track and the deer never bedded. Stopped bleeding after 100 yards......never found.
My buddy killed a buck in gun season a couple years ago that was perfectly healthy. Upon gutting that deer, it had a hardened lobe of its liver. It was gray and bumpy. It had a perfect 4 blade cut through that lobe that had scarred over. Looked to be from the year before. So t h ey can recover.
It has been my experience that if it is pure liver, t h ey don't bed. If guts are a big component, then yes, they bed soon. But, a liver shot alone they will walk forever.
On the one I shot, I regret not doing a better grid search. I was in big hardwoods and it was an any direction thing and I couldn't figure out which way to go. I later thought the deer must have doubled back and that was an area I did not even think to look based on the deers last known travel direction. So, I would look in the direction he was coming from before you shot.
Your question was what % of liver shot deer survive? I believe it's 0! After 35 years of blood trailing deer I still (and believe always will) get surprised from time to time. Their will to go on is much stronger than most other animals I've hunted.
I will not say a deer shot anywhere will always be dead or alive. I have made hits that looked perfect that resulted in a very long recovery. I witnessed a deer shot through both lungs with a rifle traveling more than 400 yards. I helped the young hunter track his first deer about an hour after the shot. When we opened him up I couldn't believe he traveled 40 yards. The hit looked good. I have a deer head in camp that used the cape from a buck that was taken with a ford F250. We found a broadhead near the spine, A .22 bullet inside the chest cavity and a .50 caliber in his neck . All projectiles were encased in gristle. I have taken some deer that folded at the shot that I could not explain why the shots were fatal.
All the liver hit deer I have harvested have only traveled a short distance before bedding down. Except one, and he is hanging on the wall about 15 feet behind me. Was a long tracking job but found him about noon the day after I shot him. Looked to be dead center, too far back after the shot but ended up was a liver hit. No guts. Blood trail tapered off about 200 yards into it but by then he had leaned against a few trees, left a lot of blood there. Deer shot in the liver will die, most of the blood runs through it as it is the body's filter.
Key to deer survival in my opinion is vitals impacted it's dead!artery it's dead!in northern climates where there is a 100day snow pack or longer all wounded deer are dead even a graze,Any blood or weakening the predators and cold kills all.I have seen a liver with the healed scar as well but not in a deer or moose,So I agree survival percentage is zero with a miracle from time to time
Liver shots are funny. I believe the vast majority die, it's the time frame with the great variance. I've helped others on liver shots that took hours, but the only liver shot I have made on a deer he went about 40 yards and crashed.
Not every part of the liver is especially vascular. Some parts will bleed more than others, which accounts for the difference in time to die. Also, a hit on the right side of the animal, where the liver lies, will leave a much better blood trail than on the opposite side, especially if there isn't a pass-through. I've killed and been in on a number of big game animals over the years with liver shots and every one is different. Best to leave them if it's safe to do so, unless you watch them die.
I shot a muley buck walking/quartering away at 7 yards a couple weeks ago. This was a level shot from the ground. He jumped about 8 feet into the air, ran hard for 70 yards, stopped, laid down quickly, and died within 10 minutes. Every time I started to sneak toward him for a finishing shot he would raise his head, so I decided to let time work rather than coyotes if I bumped him. The arrow entered at the very front of the ham, passed through the stomach and into the liver.
His big jump at impact caused the broadhead to make a nasty gash in the liver, much worse than the three-blade hole. His abdominal cavity was full of blood, but there was NO blood trail because the entrance wound went through the muscle in front of the ham and there was no exit wound. If not for that I'd have gotten one lung as well.
Point being, unlike a double-lung where the diaphragm collapses, or a heart shot with massive hemorrhage and near-instant heart failure, every liver shot is different. A neighbor was shot in the liver by a 9mm hollow point at point blank range and he survived, even though it took over an hour to airlift him to a hospital. He was beating on one of our fishing patrol guys with a tire iron at the time and had threatened me and others at various times, so we were sort of sorry he survived.
Look up living donor liver transplant. The liver is one organ that has the ability to regenerate.
If no major vessels were hit or if the wound had clotted and no infection I could see in some cases the animal surviving. Not likely I would guess, but possible.
I've hit a few, but so far all have involved gut as well, they laid down in short order, most died in their beds, a couple more i finally got in and put another in them. Going away and coming back in a few hours isn't usually an option.
Sorry you lost your deer. Been there. Best you can do is learn from it and there are a lot of good responses above. I don't have much to add other then I think your buck is dead. Any chance you can go back and look again to confirm and collect the antlers? Would be good to have the closure. Keep us posted.
As some of have said, a lot of variances in liver hits. Back to back days we had one hit at daybreak, and have to be finished just before dark and more than a mile away. (Newbie bowhunter pushed it too soon. Luckily he came back with a great tracker.) The next morning a guy made a liver hit that ran 60 yards, bedded but it's head was on the ground within a minute or two. If you did get a liver hit, I'm afraid the buck is dead. I also know that where we think we hit a deer, and were we often hit them can be very different. Thanks for bringing up the discussion.
Sad... No excuse for loosing a liver hit deer, the liver is a vital organ and all hits are fatal... Give a little time and LEARN HOW TO TRACK...
Killed a few with liver hits, but one buck I hit years ago got away and I do believe he might of survived. I do believe that a liver hit deer can survive, small chance though.
way to go zbone. you get the golden donkey award for the most productive comment.
leo17, he is always that way. you can't fix people that are Dbags. Just how they are.
When we talk liver hits, there are a thousand things that can have happened and unless you find the animal, everything is a guess.
Probably the biggest mistake made on liver and intestinal cavity hits is impatience. We don't wait long enough, bump the animal, and lose it.
I have read many people's claims about the hit and all seem to be certain about where the hit was located. Unless you have video, you really don't know.
I once shot a whitetail with a longbow (170fps) at about 25 yards. I called the buck in with my mouth simulating grunts. At the shot, I saw the white fletched arrow disappear just in front of the hips. The buck disappeared in the thorn apple, reappears a few seconds later, doing about 30mph on my opposite side, slammed into a pine and fell motionless. My hip hit was actually just behind the front shoulder.
My point is that we don't really know what happens when we hit a deer.
This was a liver hit deer, must of clipped other stuff also the deer only went about 75 yards and died pretty quick.
Entrance was on the right side, I wish I would've taken a pic of the liver.
Behind the ribs you didn't hit the liver.
This was a liver hit deer, must of clipped other stuff also the deer only went about 75 yards and died pretty quick.
Entrance was on the right side, I wish I would've taken a pic of the liver.
Behind the ribs you didn't hit the liver.
I must have hit a major vein in the liver, I saw the deer go down then get up and go down again. I waited an hour before I tracked it there was a lot of blood but no lung blood.
I must have hit a major vein in the liver, I saw the deer go down then get up and go down again. I waited an hour before I tracked it there was a lot of blood but no lung blood.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... A guy comes on here and brags about unrecovering MULTIPLE liver or gut shot deer and you guys wanta flame me... Geez, guess typical of today's politically correct society...
There is no excuse for loosing liver or gut shot deer, and you folks that believe those are not fatal hits are only fooling yourself... If it didn't hit the liver, it hit the guts which is just as bad... They are walking dead, it just takes them agonizing time to die...
I gave good simple advice - give it time and learn how to track... Patients and time for bad hits, and do not push... If for sure known liver hit give it a few hours, more than a couple... If gut shot in the evening wait until morning to take up the track, if morning, then wait until the following morning...
Knew I shouldn't have commented in the first place... Flame away, PEACE, I'm out...
Biggest bodied deer I ever killed was a liver hit. That Iowa buck, field dressed, bottomed out a 250lb scale. Shot him maybe 30 minutes before dark. Suspected it was a liver hit, so I backed out until morning. Did not find him dead in his first bed as hoped and didn't have any blood to follow. Began grid searching and eventually jumped the buck which had bedded in a creek bed root-wad not 50 yards from the 1st bed.
I could tell he was hurt, but did not pursue. Returned mid-afternoon and found him dead in the same creek bed, maybe 100 yards from my stand. Figure that buck lived roughly 18 hours after the shot, and didn't venture more than 80 yards in a semi-circle from where he was shot....until I jumped him. Fortunately, he did not have much left at that point. I can only assume his sheer body size allowed him to survive that long on a liver hit?
So, yes....I believe a liver hit is 100% fatal.
I liver hit a doe this year...she ran 40 yds then slowly walked away...arrow was soaked in blood and I had 50 yds of blood trail then nothing. I backed out and found her 8 hours later about 100 yds away. You gotta give them time and it pays to know where they'll likely go. I basically walked to that doe by understanding how she used the area.
On the dead deer I posted above, I would say the exit hole is where the blue dot is on this pic.
When there are two holes in a deers mid-body the infection will be the long term death sentence (potentially a couple months) if not via the short term organ cut.
Liver hits are not all the same, as others have mentioned. Certain liver hits are peripheral, meaning the major arteries are not hit. Other liver hits kill quickly as a much m,ore vascular area of the liver is hit. Unless you can still see the animal, its better to err on the side of caution and wait the minimum of 4 hours to 8 hours or overnight.
People (including me) are always quick to judge.
In this case, the guy gave it 7 hours and came back with a tracking dog. Assuming that the dog was good, there isn't much else the guy could do.
Everyone loses deer or they haven't hunted very long.
First to answer your question...I don't think a liver hit deer has a high percentage of living.
Second...like said above,we don't always see EXACTLY where the arrow hits AND exits.(I've seen some weird arrow travel paths through a deer due to their twisting/turning movement at the shot.
Third...if someone says "It was quartered a little this way or that way". It was quartered a lot more than they think. Myself included sometimes. (I know you said it was broadside)
An arrow through a paunch shot deer will smell kind of sweet, not rank or really foul. (At least to me). A lung/heart shot arrow has no smell at all (to me).
The liver of a deer is mostly on its right side sandwiched between the diaphram and the main stomach. The diaphram also moves slightly forward and back depending on the breathing of the deer. I've seen shots go in forward of the diaphram,through the diaphram and through stomach and liver and back out forward of the diaphram. This was on level shot to a straight broadside deer.
It is my experience that its almost impossible to hit ONLY liver on a pass through shot. An arrow that exits the right side of a deer will look like the one above because the last internal thing it went through was the liver. A shot that exits the left side of the deer will go through something else (depending on the angle) before it exits. If broadside or quartered away this means paunch and the arrow will show more signs of a stomach hit.
I shot a buck on the move a few years back(it was the rut and he wouldn't stop) at 15 yards. At the hit he jumped and grunted and went about 40 yards and stopped looking kinda sick and hunched up little. I knew the shot was back " a little bit". He then laid down about 20 yards from the edge of a steep hill and bedding thicket. I was in a climber and couldn't slip out quietly so I sat there and watched him all day. (He was behind to much stuff to get a clear shot). He would sit there and then his head would droop down but when a squirrel would move or a branch would fall he would snap to full attention. He got up about 5 or 6 times and would stand there hunched with his nose almost on the ground then tiptoe a few steps and lay back down. Finally, as daylight was fading, he seemed sluggish enough that I quietly climbed down and snuck in for a finishing shot as he got up for the last time.
I believe when he laid down right away that he "plugged" the hole in his liver so it wouldn't bleed out but when he stood up again he would start losing blood again and lay back down. A deer that walks off instead of running seems to go further sometimes because they don't get their blood pumping and bleed out as fast in my experience .
Unless there is a really good blood trail on a "back a little too far" hit I treat them like a paunch shot deer and give them at least 8 hours if I can.
Deer are tough critters and will surprise you as to what they can survive,but from the looks of that arrow he's probably in that patch of woods or close to it somewhere. Too bad you lost the meat but you will probably find what nature hasn't reclaimed yet if you get in there to look.
Having shot several WT's in the liver IMHO you should take a lot of time (unless you see it expire) before taking up the track.
Of course all tracks differ, however liver shots require a lot of patience of the hunter not to get on the track/trail to soon.
Try to wait all day or overnight. If you jump it from bed then by all means back out and give it more time to expire. Pushing it usually ends with bad results.
Being concerned about coyotes or other issues usually will put a person on the track to soon.
Time is your friend. The longer you wait the better your chances of recovery.
Good luck finding the rack.
What's great about this thread is that when I first visited Bowsite 18 years ago the site was littered with a HUGE misunderstanding of what adequate and appropriate time to give an animal post shot.
Not doubt we have a paradigmatic shift in theory and soaring recovery rates compared to the "old days".
Hardly anybody then were giving "back" hits enough time and the arguments and issues of coyotes and losing meat were the norm
The liver is a pretty small organ, I think lots of guys (myself included) think they hit liver when they actually haven't. The liver is also really close to the lungs and sits high on the animals frame. I've recovered 4 out of 5 paunch shots, the 5th has rain involved within an hour of the shot and ended up not recovering until the meat was not salvageable. I've only had one deer liver hit, one of my biggest bucks so far. I only clipped the liver but got the spleen fully. He went about 300-400 yards but it was because I accidentally jumped him on my way out as he bedded close to the road I entered from and about 120 yards away from the shot. Medically there is almost no chance of survival from a shot in the intestinal organs.
I hope you can find your second buck! Also, I normally punch my tag when I think there is a lethal hit...you are under no obligation to do so but I would encourage you do so on the second buck based on the knowledge that he is dead beyond a medical miracle. Best of luck with the rest of you year and keep your head up it happens.
On the subject of coyotes: I have found a pretty good practice that seemed to work. I camp outside or in the truck with the windows rolled down on overnight waits when possible and within earshot of my shot to listen for coyote sounds. So far it has worked when I have been able to do it
If you cripple 2 bucks in the same season, please stop bowhunting.
Oh, if you were grid searching search every imaginable water in the area. In cases where the deer did not die in their beds they have always been by water in my experience with any shot in the body cavity
Wow...just wow. I've always been so impressed with the maturity and helpfulness of people on bowsite; you can imagine my feelings after reading the last 20 posts or so. Let me address a few areas of concern that have been raised.
1. I did not liver/gut shoot multiple deer this year. I released two arrows at bucks this year and neither deer was recovered. The first deer (as addressed in another thread) was hit above the spine (general consensus of bowsite). It was not a great shot (obviously). That buck has showed up on trail camera multiple times in the last 4 weeks (since the shot) and shows no evidence of declining health.
2. I personally feel that i did everything correctly after the shot was taken (backing out, waiting 7+ hours, returning with a friend and his tracking dog).
3. This is not bragging, don't take it as such. I've taken 30+ deer with a bow in the last 9 years with a bow. I've released 33 arrows that impacted deer in that time. Those 3 arrows that did not result in a punched tag consisted of 2 bucks this year and a doe several years ago that was hit back. Telling me to stop bowhunting is simply an ignorant and asinine comment.
4. "learn how to track". How do you supposed i learn how to track when nearly all of my kills died within sight or after short blood trails? Every day that i bow hunt i am fortunate to learn many new things, tracking including.
Bashing a hunter on this or any other website accomplishes little. If you've hunted your whole life and never wounded a deer, congratulations. The majority of us have lost a deer and as unfortunate as that is, it DOES happen.
I'm not making excuses, i'm human. I made two less than ideal shots on two nice bucks this year. It's hard enough coming to terms with wounding an animal; being bashed on the internet, especially in a forum of your peers, doesn't help.
Also, I understand we dont always think we hit a deer where we thought we did; in this case i hit this deer nearly dead center mass. He stopped with his front leg slightly back so i errored a touch back to avoid the shoulder. I see no evidence on the arrow (visual or by smell) that stomach/guts were touched. The blood on the arrow and on the trail was all very dark. I firmly believe i either hit liver or lung and liver. I also don't think i would do anything different in retrospect.
In regards to the tag punching comment; it was done that week. I feel the same way.
I thought this one was liver hit. He was exactly broadside. The side showing is the entrance, exit was just a tad lower on the other side. Shot him in the morning and I waited 4 hours to get down and look even though I thought I saw him stagger as he went out of sight. I actually caught the upper furthest back most part of both lungs. I was lucky, but I was still freaking out for 4 hours in my stand. Even swore off snuff if I was able to find him. LOL.
Chris, Please don't take those who criticize to seriously.
If someone hasn't lost an animal at some point then they have limited experience.
Over 40 years ago when I lost a deer and was really feeling down about it a beloved uncle said, "Don, the little critters have to eat too, it won't go to waste".
Since then I have lost another and been on numerous tracks helping others who pushed to quickly only to lose the track. Some were found later and a few were not.
Tracking is the most difficult part of our sport. Anyone who says otherwise is BS'N
This said you only need to satisfy yourself with your best effort of tracking or recovery.
I personally see nothing wrong with your efforts.
12 YARDS, You back dipping??? Done some of my best bargaining with the Good Lord on bloodtrails....lol
I'm just surprised you're surprised at the reaction :) :) I could have almost bet how this one would have gone :)
I've released 20 arrows this year, at multiple animals of 7 different species. I won't tell you how many didn't go where I wanted them to go. But I'm still bowhunting :) And I'll defend that position :)
Bumpin, if you learned anything from this exercise it is to refrain from posting honest experiences for critique by the Supreme Court of Bowsite.
Rather, post a generic question about a scenario and see if you can bait out some others who have had similar experiences to the one you are questioning.
For example, if a super-model who hunts is in love with you and wants to marry and you seek advice here, you'll get some calling you a liar, an idiot, a fool, a braggart, delusional, etc.. --the predictable bell curve of responses, some of which are guaranteed to be out on the negative tail of the curve.
As with most of Lou's post you can read the first and last words of them and get the gist...
super-model....tail....curve
Next thread....
Liver hits can be anything from drop dead in 5 seconds to alive the next day. You just have to evaluate each case carefully and if in doubt, wait.
Thanks guys, some of you are standup gentlemen. I should clarify that this happened to "a guy i know" ;)
Or just say...."you know, asking for a friend"
You did everything you could man. Learn from it and move on. Let the people that think they know better keep thinking that.
As HerdManager said "Liver hits can be anything from drop dead in 5 seconds to alive the next day" - a big reason his statement is true has to do with the dual blood supply of the liver. If you are lucky enough to cut the Hepatic Artery or the Portal Vein before they do much branching - you will get significant hemorrhage. If you miss those bigger vessels then you only transect small vessels, capillaries (sinusoids) and the bleeding will be insignificant.
Zbone is correct, there is enough info on when and how to track a deer. Everyone is in a rush.
I have hit the liver twice. The first deer was broadside and the arrow defected off the last rib and hit liver, guts and exited the opposite ham, shot about 7am. That deer left a very poor trail, nonexistent after he stopped after about 50 yards and walked off. We found him the next day after grid searching about 125 yards from where he was shot, carcass was still warm and it was below freezing temps outside.
The second deer was walking when I shot him and I center punched the liver only and I watched him go down within 40 yards.
I think you did the right thing, unfortunately it doesn't always work out the way we would like it to. Mature whitetail bucks during the rut are a tough animal, as many here can attest to, sometimes they can take an arrow in a vital area and keep going for a long time.
"Zbone is correct, there is enough info on when and how to track a deer. Everyone is in a rush."
Really? Everyone? That's a broad brushstroke. But then again Everyone comes across as a genius when they have the benefit of hindsight. The guy waited 7 hours, came back with a tracking dog. Sometimes it happens that way regardless.
Bumpin, I equate this site with a classroom environment. You can certainly learn a lot from a number of really good guys. But you still have have a few individuals that know-it-all, have done at all, or just want to be disruptive. Just like in grade school. I've learned a great deal and became a more proficient shooter from many of the threads and to the responses here. Best of luck the remainder of the season. Gene
^^^^X2, nobody is finding every live hit dear, if they say they are they are very inexperienced, I hate the liver hit unless is a nice quarter to or away, they they are toast forsure
Genesis, I've quit to the point that I only chew when I'm hunting. No kidding, I start mid-October and quit mid-November every year. I honestly don't touch it in the off-season. I do need to quit altogether though.
To the OP, if you follow Midwest Whitetail at all, one of the pro-staff shoots a buck in the liver. If I'm not mistaken, he tracked it for more than a day, and shot it again to finally kill it. I'll try to find the episode and post a link.
I have had 3 liver hits in my careers...one lost and two recovered....the two I recovered I shot in the PM.... I gave the deer the night and came back in the AM and they were 150 yards...one ran like a gut shot..tail twitch and I watched him bed....I snuck out ....the other ran like he was hit hard but I knew the hit too far back...I might of been able to find him that night but I took no chances
Just do yourself a favor and forget that you ever saw that anatomy pic that doubleforky posted, because it gives an impression which is 152,000% DEAD WRONG.
That drawing shows empty space all around the lungs, and it just ain't there! Pic from Paul is a VASTLY better guide, and the image from Dale - while it is rotated 90 degrees - shows perfectly why the liver can be feast or famine for blood loss...
This is one of those threads which will teach you not to go generalizing.... but if I were going to, I would say that a liver hit will tend to be more immediately lethal the higher it is. And if you come in just barely under the spine, that is as good or better than getting both femorals at once.
Wait a minute… I'm going to take that back. Getting the descending aorta is vastly more effective than cutting through both femoral arteries because the blood pressure is exponentially higher (BP is a function of the diameter of the vessel).
And FWIW, waiting all day and returning with a tracking dog...? I just don't think you could play it any better than that. You can always hope for a better outcome, but IMHO there's no way that your process could have been any better.
I have never hit anything but lungs (especially not Liver or Guts) on everything I've ever shot. I've shot everything with a fixed blade, cut on contact broadhead and I used a 600 grain arrow. Although I do use a compound bow, I wish I was man enough to use a TRADITIONAL bow like the real Bowhunters here on Bowsite use.
Bob - I expect you're yanking the collective chain here, but if you think using a recurve or longbow will make you any more Manly... Please don't.
Worst thing that ever happened to bowhunting is the elitist BS that killing a deer with a single string bow somehow proves that you're a better hunter than a guy who uses more modern equipment. If you're doing it just to prove that you CAN, it's no different than that 57-yarder in the video clip. It's a freakin' fashion statement. Bragging rights. Great. Just what we need to keep ourselves focused on taking only high-percentage shots and making good, clean kills. And that's all that matters. A dead deer is a dead deer... doesn't matter what you killed it with.
Hunters were taking big game with pointy sticks for thousands of years before cams & cables, and they'll keep on doing it as long as there is game to hunt. It's not like it suddenly got any harder.
Hunt with whatever makes you happy and use it well.
I switched from trad bows to a compound a few years ago because I wanted to see what it was like to shoot one of those contraptions. Discovered I liked it. Then I came to accept that in my 60s I'm not as good with a trad bow as I once was, and I'm more consistently accurate with a compound.
There are many for whom the trad thing is a fashion statement, a vanity badge, an ego display. I know plenty of them. For me it was just what I always shot and hunted with and I got pretty good with it, killed a lot of animals. For guys like Bob it wouldn't matter what he hunted with. He could hunt with an atl-atl and still be arguably the best bowhunter alive. Many others have no business hunting with a trad bow, ego and vanity be damned. Then there are those who have no business hunting with a bow at all, because they have a rifle mentality.
sorry to hijack the thread
Just thought i'd update the thread; we/I found him today. I'm not sure how we didn't find him when 4 of us went through that patch of timber over new years weekend but he was right where I thought he SHOULD be. He was appx 400 yards away from my treestand and I strongly believe that we found him in one of his initial beds after the shot. Unfortunately we weren't able to salvage anything but the antlers but it provides closure and I was able to get a picture with my first buck with my first child, Lily. We found him in the exact direction he was heading; i'm assuming he continued to head in that direction until he bedded down and bled out.
BTW, i'm a veterinarian and I got kicked in the face while working cattle yesterday (so you don't have to ask, lol).
I am glad you have closure. It says a lot about the importance of animals to you. I also thank you for sharing with us.
Just had to say, since I don't think any one else did, that the most ludicrous part of that post was the LEARN HOW TO TRACK part.
Does anybody on Bowsite believe they are a better tracker than an average tracking dog? I would like to learn from you if you are.
Glad you found it and got closure. Out of curiosity, how do you think the dog missed it?
Glad for you that you found him and at least got a bit of closure. Also, congrats on your beautiful little girl as well!
I remembered reading this thread earlier but stopped following it after the first dozen or so posts. Geez! There's a bunch of guys on here that I know I'd really enjoy sharing a camp with, and a few, not so much. Amazing how many "know it all" experts there are in this world!
Didn't read all the posts here but one of my bigger bow kill bucks, and my first time using a doe decoy, was shot through the liver. Kind of a week blood trail at dark so we let him go over night. We found him next morning about 150 yards away. He had headed towards water. He was not in the water but about five yards away. I have heard that gut shot deer will head for water to cool down rising body temps so he may have done that. I seem to remember the meat of this deer having a slightly off odor to it when it was cooked.
It's been a while since I posted here on the bowsite, one thing remains the same. Ones ability to track, smell, wait along with knowledge of anatomy always improves with the use of a key board and goggle.
About 15 years ago I shot a mulie quartering-to on the right (liver) side. (Yes, an excited-rookie mistake.) The arrow skewered the liver and exited farther back on the left side. He ran 100-150 yards and bedded. I watched him for several hours. Multiple times his head would slump, and I'd think he was a goner. Then he'd slowly raise his head again. After three hours I snuck in and finished the job, so there's no way of knowing how much longer he'd have lived. Keep in mind that this was in the wide-open prairie, so I was fortunate to see where he'd gone, and I didn't need to blood trail him. If this had happened in the thick woods, the story could've been much different. My two take-aways from the experience: (1) Don't take a bad shot like I did! and (2) Give a liver-shot deer plenty of time.
For the "Liver shots are always fatal" crowd, I suppose the term "liver shot" needs a little explanation. I'm not vet, but a good, solid liver hit probably is fatal. However - as others have posted - some parts of the liver (especially around the edges) can be non-fatal. Heck, 30 years ago some of my own liver was removed, and I'm still alive. :)
I made the mistake of tracking a liver it deer in only two hours,,yea I know...I simply thought at his hard quartering away angle,I got the ack of the lungs,,I did not...We found blood clots he size of a dinner plate 200 yards out..At 500 yards ..We found a gutpile ..and a cut liver..My deer was taken by an AHOLE that could see the dead deer from a townhouse Window..I actually tracked I'm dragging my buck to the truck,then followed the blood drops 300 yards townhouse garage door,,,blood on the entrance door knob..To no avail ..I lost at that time the biggest buck I'd ever shot due to my poor shot placement..I heard the buck hangs in the guys townhouse...
Good thread bumpinblaze - there is a lof of good stuff in here. I'd have to agree with others that you did all you could. Congrats on the little girl as well.
As for liver hit deer, I can only remember one. He didn't bleed at all. I left him a couple hours, and simply followed the trail by leaf disturbances. Got lucky and found him about 150 yards away. Tons of blood under the body when I moved him, but I got lucky he died real quick. I prob should have given him more time, but like I say, luck was on my side that day.
If the weather and your life allows, give them 12 hours minimum. I have walked up on a couple greater than 12 hours after the liver hit that were still alive but just barely still breathing.
There is some great info out there on tracking wounded deer. Read John Jenneheys bohok on blood trailing dogs. I have had the pleasure to work a bit with John and one of his best dogs. He told me if you think it is a liver hit, 12 hrs minimum. It may be dead in 15 minutes but it can take 12 hrs. In the hundreds of deer he has recovered he said the longest he had seem a liver hit deer live was 12 hrs. He did say they can live longer as well. Gut shot deer may live a few days depending what part of the guys, large intestine they turn septic and die. Some in 10-12 hrs, some in a few days and others even longer. I once killed a deer with a collapsed lung, it was all grey and there was signs of an old healed wound on the hide but no hole and a 3 blade broadhead was found all rusty in that mass in the lung. I also killed an 8pt who had a broadhead lodge in its nasal cavity sticking out just below and between his eyes it entered behind his left ear and broke off. The only thong wrong with him was his right eye was bleach white so he was blind it in it. My point is deer can be very tough and I would never say never as I have seen some strange things in my 40 plus years of hunting and tracking them. Scooby
Thanks for all of the input guys; you rarely fail to provide positive comments.
I chose not to address the "learn how to track" comment because to me it seems silly. in my opinion the best way to learn how to trail (and do many things) is by physically doing the task. How does one learn how to track liver shot deer when it's the first time it has ever happened to them?
Thanks again for the compliments, in hindsight i would not have done anything differently over the last two and a half months. I backed out after the shot (after remaining seated for two hours) and gave him nearly 8 hours to expire. My goal was to still be able to follow the trail in daylight and the coyotes in our area are THICK! I can not speak for the tracking dog; i've remained in touch with the tracker and he remains apologetic for not finding the deer. He stated that he has never seen his dog act the way it did that day and even from my perspective, there was hardly any blood to follow. What kills me is that 5 of us went through that timber and scoured it fairly hard (obviously not enough) during new years weekend. The outcome would not have changed but i'm very happy to have closure and to be able to share my first buck of Lily's "career". Thank you for the kind words and support.
Odd the dog didn't find it. Was the dog in the area (where you found the deer) the day you shot it?
Yes, based on my recollection of the tracking job it seems we were probably within 100 yards of the deer or at least where it was recovered. At this point i have no reason to think that the deer didn't die within a few hours of the shot and probably in one of his first beds, if not the first. It's also likely that we walked within 50 yards of the carcass on our january search.
Bumpin quote "I chose not to address the "learn how to track" comment because to me it seems silly. in my opinion the best way to learn how to trail (and do many things) is by physically doing the task. How does one learn how to track liver shot deer when it's the first time it has ever happened to them?" end of Bumpin quote. Here's an even better question IMHO Is there anyone on this Site who has learned how to track deer? OR are they like me (with over 100 bow kills of my own and countless other assisting friends track) and are still learning and will never say they've "learned" it! thanks to all of the above who posted, I learned a lot from your thoughts and shared experiences. regards to all from Canada
As an added bonus...You don't have to give up bow hunting now! :) Congrats on the find. Always great to get closure on a hit animal. Thanks for the update.
Kota-man: So true, i already had my bow on the chopping block ;)
Before I forget, nice buck by the way...
Chalk it up as a learning experience... Will leave out the tracking comment this time, but you may learn some by backtracking from the kill site to where you shot or last blood, 400 yards is nothing for a liver or gut shot deer to travel, especially if pushed...
As said in the beginning, "the liver is a vital organ and all hits are fatal", "If it didn't hit the liver, it hit the guts which is just as bad... They are walking dead, it just takes them agonizing time to die", "Patients and time for bad hits, and do not push... If for sure known liver hit give it a few hours, more than a couple... If gut shot in the evening wait until morning to take up the track, if morning, then wait until the following morning..."
"If the weather and your life allows, give them 12 hours minimum. I have walked up on a couple greater than 12 hours after the liver hit that were still alive but just barely still breathing."
Agree 100%. Congrats on your buck And MORE importantly...your little girl! Whether it be medicine or bowhunting..the ones I listen to and respect are those who have made mistakes, learned from them, and are better for it.
I've hit the liver on numerous shots but they've always been 1/4 shots so I've also caught a least one lung as well, some of the shortest blood trails I've had. I think like some of the other posts have said there's liver hits where you might just nick the edge of the organ that might be not as cut and dry .
I'll agree with Zbone this time ;)
But FWIW, I have made it my practice to track every animal I've ever shot - with a few exceptions for those occasions when it simply hasn't been practical… Sometimes you do just run out of time!
The thing is… Most of us are in a hurry to collect the animals, and so there's a tendency to move quickly from one drop of blood to the next.... instead, we should be scouring every inch of the animal's trail to see what else is there.... so that we will learn to follow the track even when there is no blood there to give it away.
Even on the one animal that I ever hit and which I was unable to recover, though, there was plenty to learn… It was a small muley out in Colorado and she made her escape along a well-used trail across a bench covered with lodgepoles and not much else. But by getting down on the ground and sticking my finger tips into the hoof prints I found there in the pine Duff, I was able to find that some of them were warm and dry in the bottom and others were cool and moist. So I literally felt my way along that trail for a couple hundred yards without encountering a single drop of blood.
That really didn't surprise me in the slightest, however, seeing as I was sure that I had shot clean over, and only realized that I had clipped her back line when I found a small shred of meat on one blade of my broadhead. Classic case of not wanting to shoot over, so I glanced at the back-line to be sure I was under it, but once it had my attention, of course that was where the arrow ended up. Kind of a shame, because that would have been my first deer with a bow and it would have made for a great story to have taken my first archery deer by swinging through on a trotting animal and center-punching the 10-ring.... And I did get the lead on her PERFECTLY, if I do say so....
Anyway, the great thing about learning to track is that you don't need any blood at all, or even a wounded animal for that matter… Just find yourself a track and get on it!
You really do learn from all of them. My daughter shot a buck 3 years ago. She said the hit was high and center of the body. I thought the deer was down because I was around the hill in the direction the deer ran, and I never saw it. No arrow. She was in a pine stand, so finding blood was tough. We found a few small drops, but we were basically following his hoof prints in the soft soil. About 40 yards in and the blood stopped. My heart sank, because I thought maybe it was over the spine. She kept saying it was really high. My daughter asked me if the blood stopped because the deer had bled out internally. I didn't have the heart to tell her what I really thought, so we kept following hoof prints. 20 yards later, where the pines transition to brush, there lay her deer! She smoked him. High but under the spine and hit the large lobes of both lungs. And she was right about him having bled out internally. I've never been so happy to be wrong about a blood trail prediction. He was dead in seconds, just didn't leave much of a blood trail.
RE comments on threads - in my experience some folks come with the bark on, but it almost always is intended to be helpful. Personally, I'd love to do a really good tracking class. As we know, some folks are AMAZING at tracking animals, particularly those that have been wounded. I'll never be a Kalahari bushman, but I'm getting the feeling that top notch tracking skills will help in recovering more than one animal if you're into this sport long enough.
willliamtell - Yeah, I agree, tracking and woodsmanship are pretty much skills learned, and although some may be born with enhanced senses or better natural abilities, babies don't come out of the womb as natural born trackers, its learned and honed through experiences and sometimes assisted through mentor or tutoring....
