Getting rid of muzzleloader season?
General Topic
Would anyone else like to see this season disappear? Or go back the flintlock/percussion? Please keep the debate healthy. If your state had an extended archery season to replace ML $$$(with an extra tag to buy) would you take advantage of it? Also, if your state had a primitive archery season would you take advantage of it? Say one that banned cams, releases, lighted nocks ect.
Here in Pa. we have a late flintlock/archery season. I'm in the woods a lot during that season and seldom hear a gun . I'd take advantage of any opportunity to archery hunt, whether it meant extra cost or using my recurves/ longbow. Especially..... if it meant using my recurves/ longbow.
The old side locks and open sights were muzzle loaders to me, not the scoped out models now. There were a lot less people that hunted the season then also.
Missouri changed to "alternative methods", muzzleloaders, pistols, bows, etc
I actually like it. It's not an extra tag. You have to use unused rifle tags.
I love it actually. Bad weather. Low participation. Good excuse to buy more toys to play with.
I wouldn't change a thing.
All hunters have equal right to the woods. Not just the "elite" bow hunters
Yes, the season should disappear for inlines. Technology advanced beyond the original intent of a black powder season. Use inlines during the general gun seasons, if you so choose.
As long as we're hallucinating under the influence of psychedelic drugs, sure thing! I'd also like a lifetime free supply of Macallan 18, a prevention for cancer, and a wealthy oversexed super-model/gourmet chef wife who loves to hunt and fish, thinks I'm the most awesome man who ever lived, and owns a 300,000 acre ranch in Montana.
Now ask this same question over on the black powder forums, except switch the subjects.
I would strongly oppose a trad-only season. Good Lord, we're divisive enough among ourselves already. Let's not make it even worse. BTW I don't consider my engineered laminated recurves with carbon cores and Dynamax strings shooting weighted carbon arrows to be "primitive".
That's a tough one to answer. Primitive weapons in my eyes are "well primitive in nature" that can be debated in itself. Long bows, Re-curves and Cross bows are not as primitive as they once were. Muzzle loaders are nothing short of a bolt action high powered rifle. Will "Primitive" be defined as truly Primitive and when and what will be the cut off date to Modern? Will Spear's, Blow guns and Slings or Traps be added to the list of Primitive? Indians even used clubs after driving them into a river to attack them by canoe. Interesting question.
I just want to hunt and have fun doing it. I want to be conservation minded and use my self discipline to manage deer and the habitat for the future generations to enjoy. If that means I have to go by a strict set of rules that govern my weapon of choice to hunt, then I guess I would be forced to change, in order to hunt.
One season, use whatever weapon makes you happy. Equal opportunity for all, what can be more fair than that?
"*cams and wheels"
Jaq beat me to the punch. Since we're playing hypotheticals, here's a question for the OP. If we give up cams and wheels, will you give up your carbon/graphite shafts, laminated recurve, factory produced steel broadheads, etc, etc? After all, if it's primitive you want, don't just go part way.
I would like to see the "muzzleloader" season go back to what it was intended, yes. But, that won't happen. I don't see any reason for a "traditional only" season. Why would you need it, you have 3 1/2 months to hunt with any legal bow. Doesn't make sense.
My state has a 2 buck 105 day archery season. Almost no one muzzy hunts. I don't see any reason to do away with it.
Have nothing against muzzleloaders, have killed a few deer with muzzleloaders myself, but do have a problem with muzzleloader season in January... Our statewide muzzleloader season is Jan 7 - 10, 2017 this year... Blasting at deer during January with firearms is too stressful on them for that time of year... Give them a break to conserve energy and let them settle down after all the other firearm seasons in November and December...
If we had a trad-only season we'd have even more incompetent guys hunting with trad bows who have no business doing it than we have now.
In CO the muzzleloader elk season happens right in the middle of "our" archery season. The past three seasons I've hunted the whole 9 ML days and have only seen one pumpkin in the woods. Met two others at a trailhead who honored where I was hunting and offered to help me pack one out. Seems like there are fewer hunters overall because many bowhunters stay home that week.
Here we go with the elitist thinking again. What the hell guys!! There's room enough for all of us. Archery seasons run for months. Give everyone else a shot at killing a deer too. Deer hunting wasn't created just for you to go plunk your ass in a tree!!! See you on the tundra. Rory
I once squeezed a chipmunk to death with my bare hands!! Now that is primitive !!
If u want primitive don't forget to take the horse or walk to your spot. Don't want that fancy machine taking you there. No tree stands either. Better get to tanning that deer hide for clothes, no fancy store bought clothes. If you wear glasses or contacts, take them off or out.
You get the drift....
Once again, it is very simple. Have one season and use whatever weapon you want to kill your animal. Every hunter then has the same opportunity, no special seasons.
As much as this state sucks for deer population I am happy with the seasons. 6 weeks bow until end of Nov followed by 2 weeks gun then 3 weeks muzzle loader. If anything I would like to see the ML before the gun season.
We have a two week muzzy season here after the general season. No new tags, gotta stick with the ones on your license, if you have some left. That's when I usually take a doe, if I'm lucky. And yes, with an Encore .50 cal. with a scope, 209 primers, Powerbelt bullets, etc. So no, I wouldn't change it, hell the state will do that in a couple years anyway. They introduced it, then dropped it, now it's back on, so I roll with the flow. It's all hunting to me.
Your sarcasm isn't working, Missouribreaks. Give that a break. You're the guy who is traumatized because some 12 year old kid may be hunting with a crossbow in the next county.
In CO we have so many rifle hunters that even they are broken up into six separate seasons (including plains), not counting the special late seasons. Otherwise it would be a mess on public land.
I'm not sure if I'm alone here but after 6 weeks of sitting in a tree with a bow it's nice to pick up the ML and creep around the woods and seeing new spots not having to pick that perfect tree for a close shot. Just a different change of pace and scenery.
Soooo, what is the best solution to the OP's question?
At 69, I'm old enough to remember when the compound screwed up the archery seasons. While these discussions give our fingers some exercise, they are truly meaningless.
Want to really increase the hunting experience, do away with tree stands.
Yes they really are meaningless. Crossbows and inlines are the new normal in many states.
In Colorado we have a 30 day bow season, that's it. You don't fill your tag, you are done. I would like to be able to bow hunt longer, like other states, but with our multiple rifle seasons, not sure how to work it in. Our muzzle loader is during the rut, I would not mind seeing that moved until later. We can use modern 209 primer in-lines, but no pellet powder or sabot bullets. No scopes either. No electronics on ML, except a camera. To answer the original question, no, I would not like ML season go away, just moved out of the rut. No also on the "primitive" archery season.
In answer to the "how primitive do you go" question...sure you could get rid of Carbon arrows, glass bows, ect but you wouldn't want to go soo primitive as to limit participation... And after all participation is a key force in decision making nowadays. Also handmade stuff is great but economy benefits from manufactured products. I understand your comment was tongue and cheek but if you are wanting a logical answer there it is.
And as to the mockery of traditional archery and the bringing up of the recent updates such as fast flight strings and carbon arrows...well you are very funny with all due respect. I shoot a Selfbow as well and with only slightly less accuracy. It cuts my effective range from say 28ish to 22ish yards.
Geez, is hunting season already over? Usually these threads don't start until after the new year...
If you want a traditional only bow hunt area, check out The McAlester Army Ammunition Plant in Oklahoma. From the Q&A Q: What items are not allowed in the hunting area? A: Items not allowed in the hunting area are alcohol, spark-producing devices, cameras, rangefinders, two-way radios, GPS, thermacells, and deer decoys. Additionally, vehicles will not be allowed to pull trailers into the hunting areas. Q: Can I take my cell phone to the hunt area? A: All cell phones are allowed in the hunt areas, to include those with cameras. However, functions such as cameras and GPS cannot be used.
And Mike with all due respect, I say you should shoot your bow more,,that six yards is in your head buddy...shoot more and post bs Facebook kills less and you'd be better off....save the response bud. And take a look in the next mirror.....
Bow hunters enjoy the longest seasons and yet some people still complain. Seems selfish to me.
I have to say I hunt bow season , rifle season and muzzle loader seasons. I use the tool that gives me the best chance of a clean kill in each season. When I don't have a doe permit in the black powder season I often hunt with my bow. I am sick of hearing folks whine when others choose to use a different tool to hunt with. Opportunity to take an animal in my state is scarce enough. If it is legal then There is room for you to hunt.
I'm just curious, have been able to do pretty well in the regular season and during rifle and muzzie season. I've also been overrun in bow only public areas the last few years I'd say 50/50 crossbow compound and haven't seen another tradbow yet but I'm sure I will soon.
Healthy debate.
I like the challenge of one shot with my muzzleloader. And if I miss, they are gone. I hunt late muzz in Illinois and it's a 3 day season. I only wish it where later than the current dates. And if " I " decide to shoot, it will be on a mature animal. These challenges make it tough, real tough... pressured deer and an older animal.
I never want to see a trad bow only season. We need to stick together as one.
If we went primitive archery only I would start knapping heads and shaving down that stave tomorrow.
Probably sounds selfish but damn I would absolutely welcome that with open arms!
Now back to reality. Honestly, if I was a black powder guy I would question the so called archery seasons that allow crossbows and a compound bow may very well be a more efficient tool than a real flintlock.
Lou, Justin, Gary and some others here well recall the days when states made weapon decisions based on a plan to limit participation and subsequent success rates. Hunting with a bow or ml was a low odds proposition and states wanted them for that reason. Cut to 2016 and the new world order.
.
States are generally NOT interested in controlling big game kills via the use of low-odds weapons. If they were we'd see flinters, muskets, cap-'n-ball, selfbows, longbows and recurves in their own season(s). Today states control success rates and kill numbers through the use of seasons and timing. Ohioans get to hunt deer from the end of September to the start of February. If some bright person decided to plug in a 2 or 3 week primitive-only season, the success rates would drop. That would affect the overall harvest objectives and the state would end up having to give more time to guns in order to achieve the targeted deer kill numbers. The end result would be more time for shotguns and centerfires and less time for someone. That someone would be mainstream bowhunters.
It's an interesting topic but akin to a 2-legged frog. It's not going to go far.
Good thoughts guys Another interesting statistic I was going to mention in my original post. Oklahoma has seen a marked reduction in muzzleloader season participation in the last 15 years. I think it's around 25% fewer muzzie hunters? I think this has had a lot to do with bow and crossbow hunting becoming more popular. That is fewer $$ at least in my state and keep in mind we have prime dates for our 9 day muzzie season (last weekend of October opener) The season used to be 16 days I believe.
No I simply wouldn't support it. I do not support taking anything away from anybody.
Here in Utah, our big game board will be passing a new rule that if you draw a 2nd-5th choice tag, it'll take your general season deer points. Used to be the same as Wyoming. Had to draw your first choice to lose points. This wasn't something that was brought to light by the General public. It's hunters bringing it to light. It's hunters fighting hunters. Baiting big game will be looked at here too. Again, most of that is brought to attention by other hunters. If you don't like it, don't do it. It's very simple.
Stop the infighting. Stop trying to take things away from other people. This isn't Europe.
Let people hunt the way they want. If bowhunting lost Participation, would you be advocating a loss of season? I love how people talk about the advances Of muzzloaders. And how those advances should be ban. Look at our own weapons guys. Sliding sights, mechanical heads. Perfect carbon arrows. Mechanical releases. Range finders. Binoculars. Scents, calls, blinds, stands. It's a never ending list. Stop preaching to take away any hunts and start fighting to protect the ones we have!!
No group more self centered than bow hunters, followed closely by rifle hunters with points.
If your not satisfied with your hunt, buy some private land.
I agree with jaquomo (Lou), I wouldn't want to be that person that feels we are more deserving/entitled than another, and would rather have their support. So no I wouldn't want to change something I feel isn't broken.
Here in Colorado we have these same issues come up all the time about muzzle loaders during the archery season, it really isn't a problem. How much time & different seasons do we really need to hunt/pressure/stress animals!? Before it becomes nothing more than greed and over hunting!? In reality how much time does the majority of hunters spend in the field in one year? Like Lou mentioned, Colorado has so many hunters during the rifle seasons they are split up into multiple gun seasons, where ANY legal method of take is allowed, bow/gun/muzzle-loader/crossbow, ect., even though Colorado has a lot of public land, not all of it is hunt-able or inhabited by biggame, creating even more stress/congestion for both animals & hunters. The biggest factor why many animals these days live & stay on private property or in UN-hunt able areas. When is enough, enough?
I'm a fellow Okie, No, I'm not the least bit interested in limiting anyone's opportunity to experienced what I have over the last 45 years of hunting. I turn 60 in February. In my state I harvested my first deer (a buck) after 7 years of trying with a center-fire rifle. About that same time frame ML's were introduced as a viable means of harvesting a deer. That year I was one of some 3000 lucky hunters to tag a deer, and on public ground. The naysayers predicted of doom and gloom for our herd as each new aspect of hunting was added, Compounds, releases, ML's, scoped ML's, Sabots, crossbows, a 16 day rifle season. After extending the over all season to January 15, the harvest totals are now through the roof statewide (90,000 strong give or take), even as high 110,000. Sure I moan and groan about not seeing what I think I should be seeing. Mostly that's me being frustrated. As much as we want to point fingers, the vast majority of animals are still being taken by center-fire rifles, even after the advent of compounds shooting in the excess of 300 fps, crossbows, in-lines that can reach out to near 200 yrds. Here in Oklahoma the department has experimented with early ML seasons, late ML seasons and alternating (late to early) seasons, finely settling on the early (late October) time frame. As far as a 16 season for ML's there never has been one, High power, yes the last 7 or 8 years. Any changes that are implemented will affect not only the public lands that many of us utilize, but also the vast amounts of privately owned land where most hunting is conducted, which holds the majority of our herd as well. I'm not at all interested in limiting my or my fellow hunting brothers or sisters already limited opportunities. Deep pockets have already created a divide in our fraternity, I see no value in dividing us farther.
Brad, that right there is priceless!
Simply ban scopes on ml and xbows. Many states like Wisconsin want a lower dpsm and hunter recruitment/license revenue. Year 2 of xbows in wisconsin and now 44% of all stick kills were xbows. Bottom line is states want more licensed hunters and dead deer. In wisconsin Aprs, Group bagging, 1 buck/hunter/year will never happen. Bowhunters already have a huge season and the peak rut in many states. These are the good old days.
I hunt tad bow, those with wheels or one wheel and percussion Muzzle loader. Known to hunt firearms occasionally too. Usually shotgun slug.
In my home state its one buck limit, regardless of weapon. If that is in a specific zone its one deer period. Some zone have a doe permit draw, some have management (1 doe) others can be intensive (1 buck and up to 4 does). If you are in the right zone you can shoot your 1 buck with any method in is appropriate season then take a few extra does with the other weapons, again in the appropriate season. Crossbows can be used during firearms seasons, no need for them to encroach on archery as they are not archery equipment. Especially the high tech ones that can shoot like a gun. That's where the nickname cross guns came from. Crossbow permits are available for disabled and folks over 60. The air bow has no season. If it ever does get one it should stay in gun season, as its really just like a gun.
As far as any weapon all season just to have the "equal opportunity" that's nuts. It won't work and personally I would never support it due to the conflicts it creates. Multiple seasons with multiple weapons work. I have hunted all of them.
cnelk, good response ! I can't speak for other states, as I've only hunted a handful, mostly Wyo. for antelope. A little off topic here, but I think our state manages, or tries to, for max hunter opportunity, with little thought to decimating the deer population in order to please insurance companies, etc. At least that's my impression. There are many ways folks want to hunt, and Texas tries to toss them all a bone. BTW, we have just as many dissatisfied hunters as the next state. Can't please everyone !
How about a smart phone free season? Now THAT'S primative! There'd be a whole lot less hunters in the woods because they'd actually have to HUNT and not play games, text their friends, do their banking, map their way back to their truck from their treestand, etc.
How about a "Grumpy Old Fart" season? I'd really go for that!
Stickhead, you may want to take a closer look at the CO archery seasons. We can start in mid-August and except for a couple brief breaks to get reacquainted with the family we can hunt until Dec 31. We can bowhunt multiple species every year.
With an additional any-weapon cow elk tag we can even bowhunt through one of the "breaks" in late Oct/early Nov. I hunted 54 days in only CO this year and if I hadn't killed a buck on Thanksgiving I would be hunting now.
Sure, we have to share 9 days of that with MLs (no scopes) but all things considered we have it pretty danged good. Whenever disgruntled bowhunters bring up the idea of splitting-out ML from "our" season, the question from the CPW is always, "Which week do you bowhunters want to give up?"
Michael, good for you if you choose a selfbow (I guess..). That's your choice for your own personal reasons but really doesn't matter to anyone else. You already have a selfbow-only season now. It's wherever you happen to be hunting at the time. If you want it so that nobody else is hunting when you are hunting, as grasshopper advises, buy your own land. Problem solved.
Lou has it right!! There are already too many folks out there hunting with so called "Trad" equipment that should not be. I do not look at Traditional as a huge handicap and have killed a lot of deer with my recurves. I hunt with a compound as well and I also hunt with a muzzle loader on occassion. I killed a decent buck last year here in NY with my ML as I has a leftover regular season tag. This year, I am bowhunting with that tag instead. I feel fine about the ML season in NY, now I just wish they would shorten the regular gun season to 10 days or less. Scooby
What's the cut off age for "grumpy old fart" season?
It's not really an age specifically, it's more of a mindset. Of course, if you have to get up 2 or 3 times a night to pee that might be a qualification. That's one of the ways you get "grumpy".
I an a bowhunter first but I absolutely love my knight mk85 inline muzzleloader. I am good out to 100 yards with it. Ever since I hit my mid 40's I could not see iron sights anymore. Am I suppose to quit since I am getting too tech heavy since I added a 4 power scope. Where I hunt in Virginia there will not be another person within 2 to 3 miles of me in muzzleloading season and the rut is going full bore. There is 5 weekends of early bowhunting followed by 2 weeks of muzzleloader. December you can do either weapon with archery being either sex.I may be one of the few that still enjoys all 3 weapons although I do use my mk85 many times in gun season. just my 2 cents
It is all about having faith and pride in your hunting abilities and respect for the tradition, nothing more my friends. Merry Christmas to all and thank you Trump for lighting the country's Christmas spirit again.
Hunting with a longbow and Hawken for almost 50 years, hope to have a few more.
Folks , this is an interesting discussion but anything that attacks legal hunting is dangerous. I just got off face book. I have a "liberal" friend who wants to ban killing predators. She seriously believes that if we had more bears, wolves and coyotes we wouldn't need to hunt. Even if we didn't need to control populations many of need to hunt. Let's support each other.
I live here in Mn., no scopes on ML season except for use in rifle, no inclusion for x-bow,no baiting, I hunt with my recurves and cap & ball. I lived in Wi. for 20 yrs and seen a good deer season go down hill, baiting, x-bow inclusion, inline scopes (1 shot rifles), group bagging and gang drives, hunting public (especially central forrest area) is venture in insanity anymore, buying land was not an option to forfeit my kids future nor should be with proper wildlife resources management. The x-bow is the biggest threat to bowhunting season that was brought upon by self-interest, no reason for it with the modern compound except if one is missing an arm. Funny, I would have been deleted by Pat several yrs ago for mentioning the x-bow in which I have been.
When it comes to whitetails and the states I hunt. I would rather see tags cut then add another season.
JJS you are right on point!!
Lou, I was referring to the general archery season, the last weekend of Aug thru last weekend of Sept. You can't carry that tag through rifle season and till Dec 31st like other states. True, we can hunt longer adding the species, and with certain tags. I don't want to move smokepoles out of "my" season, I just don't think the modern ones, or rifles, should be used during the rut. I would happily give up the first week of bow season, then add a week to the end :) but that's another already beat to death discussion. Overall I am O.K. with hunting opportunities here.
Has any state experienced a reduction in bowhunting season days or archery tag allocations solely as a result of inclusion of Muzzleloaders or crossbows? I don't know so asking an honest question.
What does seem evident (without digging into the actual state-state data) is that overall bowhunting opportunities have increased since compounds came onto the market.
When this current "Boomer Bubble" of hunters dies off or quits hunting from old age, game departments will be begging you younger guys to hunt with any weapon available. You'll get to experience the new Golden Age of hunting with lots of animals and opportunity, and way less competition. Stop by my nursing home and tell me how it is, will ya?
I guess its that time of year again?
I hunt with my compound bow, .270, and flintlock muzzleloader in their respective seasons here in PA. If there was an inline season for bucks here, I would probably buy one and start hunting it. If there was a stickbow season, I would buy a haybale and a stickbow and start practicing tomorrow. If there was a spear season I'd probably get that tommy john surgery I've needed since high school so I could start chucking spears at deers. Only thing that can keep me out of the woods is work, and occasionally my wife. I am a woodsman and hunter and leave the self aggrandizing up to my fly fishing buddies.
In kentucky we just finished a nine day muzzleloader season. I bow hunted every day. The only two shots i heard all week were my grandson emptying his muzzloader at the end of the day. I dont see muzzleloader season as a problem.
"akin to a 2-legged frog. It's not going to go far." I like that Kevin, am going to have to use it...8^)
Season length is only one measurement of opportunity, most of you are missing that concept. Many of you are thinking only of whitetails, and only about bowhunting in your little area. Since I started hunting and bowhunting, antlerless is many states are now on a drawing, general deer tags in some states and units are on a drawing now( example Montana), bear are on a drawing in Wisconsin now, some states have APR's, minimum points, minimum spreads for moose, minimum curl for sheep, season closed when quotas met, wolves, bobcat, otter, fisher all on drawings or cannot hunt them at all. Elk are restricted in many areas to drawings only. Don't tell me that increased technology, crossbows and inlines will not eventually increase the harvest and lead to less ability to draw a tag. The draw quota is not based on interest, but rather the expected and actual kill estimates, and overall population estimates.. Don't think just about your little area but rather about hunting as a whole. This is not just about whitetails. As technology increases the ease of harvests there will be restrictions on our ability to hunt, and or harvest. Don't just think about what happens in your forty acres for deer, look at all USA hunting in general over the last 50 years and it is very obvious I am correct.
Matt... apparently. Sigh.
Jaq, to answer your question, here in PA we have not lost any archery opportunities to muzzy or xbow. We have to share a week in Oct with inlines doe season, and sr/jr have some rifle doe in Oct too. Sharing that time gets many bitching, but we haven't lost anything.
The after Christmas flintlock/archery season is fun. Some days I take my bow, some days I take the smoke stick. There is certainly more participation in the late season then when I started 25 years ago, but not enough to cause anybody any problems.
I'd like to see CT allow ML or Bow during the ML season....So you can do either on state land
Does anyone really believe we can continue to make harvesting an animal or reaching the quota easier, and something will not change? Do you guys believe that really? What if we are successful at attracting or recruiting even more hunters for the available tags, nothing changes, not even one's percentage ability to draw a tag? Come on, even a first grader can figure that one out.
Here's my thought, and I am likely going to get blasted... I think all the seasons are too long with the current state of the whitetail population. Fact is, its in a decline and has been for the last 10 years. As habitat loss increases, global warming and pressure increases, we are putting a major hurt on all the species we hunt. I think the bow, rifle, and muzzleloader seasons in most states should get trimmed down. I also think states with multiple buck tags should get lowered to just one.
Xman is correct when one looks at the big picture and all species in most areas. Increased predation is also a factor in many areas.
Lou, I'll bring you sugar free cookies so I can here stories of hunting uphill both ways ;)
My answer is no.
It provides money to the state for conservation, it helps with jobs as in stores, restaurants, gas stations, etc.
We have a primitive season here in Ohio and it's 4 days.
Our bow season is from last Saturday in September until the first Sunday in February.
You can bowhunt anytime you want in any of the gun season or primitive season.
As long as the herd is in check I see no reason to abolished smoke poles.
They will not abolish smoke poles, crossbows, or any other weapon. They simply must take this new technology, increased ability to kill, and new hunter recruitment and put that into the harvest expectations and set licensing and seasons accordingly. The sky is not falling guys.
I hunt with both recurve and compound and I hear this argument all the time at trad shoots. A separate season just for REAL bowhunters. Most of these guys bitching can't even make it up a mild slope without taking a break let alone hit the target once they get to the stake. The fact is that these types are statistically irrelevant in both license sales and harvest numbers.
Never happen. Too much $$ at stake.
"Has any state experienced a reduction in bowhunting season days or archery tag allocations solely as a result of inclusion of Muzzleloaders or crossbows? I don't know so asking an honest question. "
...
Yes, here in Virginia. They took two weeks away from Archery only, to establish the Muzzleloader season. So the Muzzies get the first two weeks of November. You can, in most Virginia areas, still use archery equipment during Muzzleloader season.
In the past ten years, Muzzleloader hunters have increased with the onset of modern In-line tech. The Muzzleloader season of old, is no longer a quiet season. It is now very similar to Modern Gun Season.
Having said all that, the biggest impact of noise, more hunting pressure, and more muzzleloader hunters, is on public land. Private hunt clubs can do what they want, as can hunting lease holders and land owners.
I'm usually done bowhunting by late November. In MN, muzzy season starts then and goes for a couple weeks into early December. They can't use scopes. To me it is fine, no changes needed. It's tough even with an inline to get a deer in MN during muzzy season. Seems more like a fawn season here.
As Xman stated, it is no one thing that will reduce hunter opportunity. Inlines and crossbows are merely two factors of many that potentially will lead to restrictions. I hunt with a longbow(selfbow) and Hawkens and have hunted all seasons I can in multiple states for 49 years. I do not need a primitive or traditional season, not necessary, IMO. I do not think any group should have special seasons. Just go do your thing and have confidence in your abilities.
No way should there be just one season any use whatever weapon you want, (if anyone is suggesting that.)
There will not be one season. One season however would not affect my hunting abilities or success one bit. I hunt the hard way, and hunt hard.
What if we take away the ML season, use your ML during rifle season, and trick it out any way you want. Then give that time that was ML season, to people with permanent disabilities who want to bow hunt, and have to use crossbows. Take crossbows out of the general archery season for everyone else. The disabled can still cross bow hunt during the general archery season if they do not fill their tag. Include another crossbow season for felons who can't own/use a rifle, the felon crossbow season. I am not a felon, nor am I serious, trying to be humorous.
"You'll get to experience the new Golden Age of hunting with lots of animals and opportunity, and way less competition. Stop by my nursing home and tell me how it is, will ya? "
Haha Lou. Can you guys start dropping off, so we can get to this "Golden Age" already? ;^)
I'll speak for my state alone. Every one is different. I wouldn't be opposed with changing our muzzleloader season to a more primitive weapon requirement. Currently, we can use modern in-lines that are essentially equivalent to a 200-yard single-shot centerfire.
However, I'm not sure it matters. I hear very few shots, and I typically bow hunt that weekend. I hate having to wear orange, but that's the rules, so that is what goes down. Many hunters use their muzzleloaders during Illinois' traditional shotgun season. I presume they feel they have a little greater range with the rifle. Some may even take multiple firearms: shotgun, pistol, muzzleloader.
In regards to the the traditional archery season. I don't think it is needed. Most "traditional" archers I have come across would not be in support of it best I can tell. Maybe I'm just a dumb compound guy who doesn't know what a few of the purists wants. Heck, if I'd have known you could effectively and ethically kill with a recurve when I started, I probably would have never shot a compound.
I just want to add that Illinois allowed archers to hunt during the traditional shotgun season this year for the first time to my knowledge. I honestly don't believe that is fair because a "gun" tag is required, and they are not unlimited. So archers may effectively be taking away opportunity from a guy/gal who may only get to hunt one or two weekends a year. Is that fair?
Btw, I have only gun hunted a handful of years in my life, and zero in the last 5 or so.
Why take away from another hunter? Why devide ourselves further? Financial crisis pushed me out of archery a couple years ago so I started hunting with a muzzleloader( muzzy was worth 50 bucks bows sold for 2000). I have since picked up archery again but while hunting with the muzzy I learned that how you hunt is far more important than what you hunt with. In the last 2 years Iv been lucky and killed my biggest buck and biggest bull I likely ever will in my life and I did it with a smoke pole but the bull was called to 20 yards and I stalked to 15 yards on the buck. Either shot I could now make with my recurve so in my mind it was honestly no different. I see no logical reason to push out ANY legal and ethical hunter.
What some are missing is the fact that THERE IS NO MEANINGFUL HUNTER RECRUITMENT happening. Hunter numbers are flat and declining slightly across the country, irrespective of weapon. The only thing propping it up and keeping it flat is the "Boomer Bubble" of the 40-60 year olds who grew up hunting and still have income and access to do it.
In my discussions with DNR officials about this, their concern is about what they can do to get new hunters hunting today and keep them hunting. All the "take a kid hunting" programs aren't working in any meaningful way besides exposing a kid to it for a few days. They see a major train wreck coming in about 15 years.
One high-ranking CO DOW official told me once, "If it wasn't for the damn CBA we could put bowhunters into a 10 day season and not have to screw around with them." We are viewed as pain-in-the-ass recreationalists who affect the rifle harvest they want to achieve because we put the animals on alert and push them into where the average 50-something gun hunters can't reach them.
Nope, can't say I would be in favor of getting rid of muzzle loaders. Pretty sure I wouldn't take advantage of primitive archery season either.
Hunter recruitment is one result of a changing culture in this country, and the trend will continue. Remember, Trump lost the popular vote.
I gave up hallucinogenics for lent......
WRT the OP.... "OMG....WHAT TO DO???" ........ nothing.
Not a flippin' thing. Why do you have to change anything? For what purpose? States will tweak their seasons as they see fit..... as is their right. IMO most have balanced a complicated issue as best they can, do a pretty good job. I see a relative handful of people just trying to carve out their own special time to have the mountains to themselves at the expense of others who aren't as "pure".
Some want to take away someone elses piece of the pie so they can have a bigger slice???? Isn't that awesome of you..... sacrificing so much for the cause..... good grief...
Missouribreaks, absolutely. The only place where meaningful recruitment is happening is in the dwindling rural population. But not enough to make up for those older hunters like us who are dropping out. I just posted some interesting tidbits on the "How old are you" thread. WI DNR projects there will be only between 60-65% of the number of hunters in 2030 than we have today.
"WI DNR projects there will be only between 60-65% of the number of hunters in 2030 than we have today." So what does that mean, more tags for those of us hunting? I will only be 68 in 2030, and hope to still be out there? Or "B" does it mean the anti's will win and there will be no more hunting? "B" is not an option, I will be the first one to say it, as long there is breath in my body and I am able to get out there, I will be eating wild game.
"So what does that mean, more tags for those of us hunting? I will only be 68 in 2030, and hope to still be out there? Or "B" does it mean the anti's will win and there will be no more hunting? "B" is not an option, I will be the first one to say it, as long there is breath in my body and I am able to get out there, I will be eating wild game."
That's been a concern of mine for awhile now. Hunter recruitment is dwindling and, IMO, will continue the downward spiral. Video games, social media, etc, etc, take up so much of their time. We as a society have become soft and entitled...not many want to spend time in the woods and leave the comforts and convieniences of the modern world. We also live in an instant gratification world...I want it, and I want it NOW! Since becoming a successful hunter is typically a long process, kids lose interest. Unfortunately, because both mom's and dad's have to compete in a highly competitive world, 8 to 5 jobs with weekends and holidays off are becoming a thing of the past. Since there's little time left for leisure, modern technology becomes a convenient babysitter. Easier to stay at home rather go through the hassle of putting everything together for a trip to the mountains. Obviously not all parents are this way, but I've seen a definite increase in this train of though over the past several years. An educational system that beats into kid's heads that hunting is unnecessary and cruel certainly doesn't help the cause either.
As hunter recruitment declines, support for those organizations that fight for our hunting rights will also decline. Although I won't see it in my hunting lifetime, and maybe not my kids, I fear for my grandkids hunting future. I pray that I'm wrong.
I get to be 100 this time!
Hey Bob, do you know how many of the 16,000 rifle kills were on the first day? I heard something like 80%.
When I was a teen, I went to Concord, NH with friends who testified on starting a ML season in NH. It was a fight to convince rifle hunters that our primitive muzzleloaders would not impact the deer kill that much. We got a 10 day either/or season. When the Knight inlines came, followed by others, we went to bucks only as the kill skyrocketed. Thexsame thing happened with the advent of the compound. We lost a week of our bow season up here in zone A of NH. As technology gets better, the only solution is to reduce seasons as there is no going back. I have adapted with my longbow and flinter by scouting more, and groundhunting only. With a deer density of one deer per square mile up here on the border, you have to go after them unless you bait, and that makes our bucks really go nocturnal. I either track on snow or creep and go find them. Didn't get one this year, as I blew a shot with my longbow on a huge bedded buck. I know where he lives and will be back next fall God willing.
Bedded deer should only be taken at a 57 yard frontal shot, with a compound, from a treestand, and a camera person.
Another hypothetical question that is much to do about nothing. Relatively there's far fewer muzzleloader hunters than bow or rifle, and of those that are out there the success rate is fairly low, so is there really a point in worrying about whether they use in-lines vs. flintlocks...or eliminating their season altogether?? I don't think so. What I do think is often we try to find ways to divide us hunters and pit one group against the other when what we should be doing is standing collectively to promote hunting in general. Sometimes a keyboard does more damage than a lead ball..
Why is it always so politically incorrect to suggest making changes to a hunting season?
Its not one group against another. The same guys hunting with inlines are the same guys hunting during gun season with their rifles and during bow season with their crossbows or compounds.
If changes are made to a specific season it simply means those who wish to hunt during that time will need to follow whatever rules/changes apply to said season. They can still hunt. No one is "excluding" them.
BTW, when I use words like crossbow, compound, inline etc... I'm not being derogatory. I'm simply suggesting that people that want to hunt, no matter what season it is, they will hunt.
Excellent posts by Jaq & Kevin Dill. Would like to comment on those but first will go back to the OP...
"Would anyone else like to see this season disappear? Or go back the flintlock/percussion? Please keep the debate healthy. If your state had an extended archery season to replace ML $$$(with an extra tag to buy) would you take advantage of it? Also, if your state had a primitive archery season would you take advantage of it? Say one that banned cams, releases, lighted nocks ect."
First thing.... Just how is it that bowhunters should presume to decide the fate of a muzzleloader season?
All of us non-centerfire types are guests in the riflemen's world, pretty much... except in areas where weapons restrictions have shifted the burden of herd management onto bowmen, in which case it is in the best interest of the state to allow whatever forms of modernization that the legislation will allow in order to max out the harvest figures....
Weapons limitations - requirements for cap&ball, flint, iron sights, fingers on the string, non-compound bows... Those are not Herd Management tools, but Hunter Management tools, and JMO one mistake that the managers have made is in making the success rates too similar in these "specialty" seasons to those in the modern-weapons seasons... In order to achieve the goal of limited participation, it would probably work out better to provide a gut-check in the form of some statewide statistics that show that you'd better be damned good if you want the same odds of success that you'd have with a rifle.
But These seasons MUST be a rock-solid quid-pro-quo..... You can hunt EITHER archery OR something else; if the state is going to allow people to buy multiple tags each year, then obviously they need more animals taken, so why would they limit the efficiency?
I think CO has it just about right with ML season being limited by draw and with some technological restrictions (or at least they had them last I checked). For example, the ML season was enacted in response to the efforts of "settlement era" ML enthusiasts who wanted a set-aside season to chase after Elk with what is basically a 50-100 yard weapon, depending on the eyesight of the user. Compared to a scoped '06, that's a significant limitation. In-Lines came to the fore NOT because ML enthusiasts wanted them, but because some farmers (who had to be back home harvesting crops during the rifle seasons) went to their local gunsmith to make them a Loophole weapon - basically a centerfire that loaded from the front, because that was all that the law required... Funny thing... when the only muzzleloaders in existence were antiques and replicas, I guess nobody contemplated the possibility of "modernization", and so defining them any further would have been seen as utterly pointless as matter of Law.... but there were those, back in the day, who railed against such contrivances as the Thompson-Center line of "Lite" MLs which only kinda-sorta looked like a Real ML...
Hell, some of those old-timers didn't even like the Lyman GPR because it was too modern....
But backing up a little...
Personally, I think CO made a big mistake when they authorized the bonus Cow tags for archery season... Things got a helluvalot more crowded up on the ridge once bow season became an opportunity for armed scouting in advance of the rifle seasons, and call me crazy, but JMO, you can bet your butt that more than one bull has been arrowed by a guy with a bow, a cow-only tag, and the ability to make a quick run into town for a bull tag.....
Note that I'm not complaining about compound shooters - just Opportunists. Because if the state were to require self-bows, you'd get the same thing going on. People who're interested in breaking the law will generally just be enterprising enough to find a way....
But way back up....
"If your state had an extended archery season to replace ML $$$(with an extra tag to buy) would you take advantage of it? "
Why "replace" ML? Why not Both-And??? Simple enough - just (as CO has always done) allow the use of a Lesser Weapon in every season. CT finally got smart enough about that to allow tricked-out in-lines as a "lesser" weapon in shotgun season here. Not because it makes sense, functionally, but just the opposite - they found a way to introduce a more effective weapon which they could sneak past the Legislature.....
Now if they would just figure out how to cut down the public-land pressure a bit.... I'd actually be OK with a tag that allows you to hunt public land starting a bit earlier IF you are not going to be hunting private land that year... That way the guys with private-land poach-holes would have a reason to leave the public-land hunters at least a few weeks with reduced competition.... And honestly, a Public/Private Either-Or option would make a lot of sense here....
Good points here, lots of different management perspectives and scenarios. My main point was that maybe it is a good idea to re-think "primitive" seasons in general since they have morphed into far less primitive means of take over the years. Also no region or species is the same for instance managing whitetails is very different from elk or other species and terrain and population densities as well as local regional or state by state hunter preference makes a huge difference. Mississippi may always be more gun friendly/pandering than say Ohio which has a big archery/crossbow culture...of course regional hunting culture is hemmed and created by game laws.
Also terrain can give long range instruments a huge advantage. Open country Mule deer seasons and tag availability for instance have been heavily effected by range lengthening updates to the compound and muzzleloader where as Whitetials in the Deep South haven't...heck you can't even see your hand in front of your face in some places down there.
Public and private land are also two very different animals and require different management in many cases
I understood what the OP was asking, I think many others became confused.
Someone asked how we as bowhunters presume to make decisions for muzzleloader hunters?
We are muzzleloader hunters! We are hunters! In Oklahoma there are more archery tags sold then muzzleloader tags, this means that a significant majority of hunters hunt both seasons and are impacted by decisions for either season. It has nothing to do with pitting one side against the other
The title of the thread is "Getting rid of muzzleloader season?".
Exactly how is that not "pitting one side against the other"? How could it possibly be "for the good of the sport"? Seems more a subject being brought up "for the good of a few hunters"?
Exactly what is the goal of any "getting rid of"?
Inlines are regular single shot rifles. They can be used in the general rifle season, there is no longer a need for a special muzzleloading season. That is, unless hunters use the muzzleloaders for which the seasons were intended.
To Jaqumo:why the attitude towards tradbow hunters? Where I live the compound shooters are the incompetent ones,buying a compound one day and "hunting" with it the next. Yes put the in-line muzzle loaders in with the guns and take the crossbows out of archery season and put the X guns in gun season.
The biggest problem I see with late season muzzleloader hunts is a lot of shed heads get shot. Other than that hunt with what makes you happy.
Here in MA, we have what I've heard some folks (in other states) describe as a lesser weapon law. During archery you can hunt with any archery gear. During shot gun, you can hunt with archery, ML, or SG. During ML, you can hunt archery. You just have to follow the rules of that specific season (hunter orange for example). So, during ML, you can use a bow, a caplock, a flint lock, or a modern inline and most recently, a break action ML.
I dont have an issue with the modern weapons. Perhaps because I use one myself during ML season... So I guess I'm biased. But overall, I'd not want to see the season go away. It's a fun way to hunt, and a nice change of pace from archery.
I know some guys still use flint locks... then enjoy the fizzzzzzBOOM of hunting with those weapons. I have a hard enough time getting on deer here, if I get a shot I want high confidence the gun will shoot when I pull the trigger. Even with caplock hunting in the past... We'd all "hot prime" the guns (remove the nipple and drop a little powder down there) and put saran wrap or vaseline around the cap on moist days... and most of us still had experiences where deer enjoyed listening to one or more cap's go off without a gun firing...
That's a long winded way of saying hunting with a ML is still fun, and ending the season would be a bummer.
One shot, along with the occasional misfire or hang fire was the entire point of the original muzzleloading season. It was not supposed to be easy..... and an entitlement to a deer. Boy did that attitude change. Again, that was what the OP was asking about,... where does it all end?
By the way, for those who keep asking for a traditional archery season...we had one once about pre 1970. It morphed into a mostly compound season, and now in many states, a crossbow season. You gave it up already, just as you gave up the traditional muzzleloading season. It is over, gone.
As far as recruitment, Kevin Dill nailed it in another thread.
Next year will be my 40th year of deer hunting. I gave up gun hunting for deer about 25 years ago. I didn't see any excitement or challenge in it. Our DNR in Illinois is an absolute joke. Paul Shelton, DNR Director, is a liar. He proved that to me, when i talked to him once. Reminds me of obama. All they manage is the money they get. I hunt with self bows, and recurves. Have for 20+ years now. I shoot year round. I don't have a problem with a muzzle loader season, IF they use the traditional, smoke pole, muzzle loader. one shot, is all you get. The in-lines shouldn't be allowed. Late season gun hunting is not good for our herd, with the bad weather conditions. As stated in an earlier post, we need to let the deer recoup. I don't want to see a Traditional only season. Illinois has way too many gun seasons now, don't need another season. If anything, the DNR needs to eliminate some seasons and number of permits issued, especially, OTC permits. Its a good thing that the DNR we had years ago, didn't let let money ruin our wildlife, like today's DNR does. We wouldn't have any animals to hunt. Everyone ought to be thankful for the DNR we had years ago, and never forget it. JMO
Missouri breaks nailed it
So basically..... where there are lines drawn..... some want to be in charge of the drawing so as it benefits them most..... exclusively really. At the expense of another hunter. And they have decided that other hunter can just go use his equipment of choice in some other season than what they can RIGHT NOW..... but the ones complaining want their own to themselves?
Got it.
Where are the lines drawn is exactly the question. Should we progress to a point where we have robots actually doing the shooting after we watch a camera and hit " enter "? The lines keep getting moved, hence the OP's question.
You mean I can have a season all to myself and everyone else can go screw themselves? Where do I sign up?!
I wish CO would lock NRs out of wilderness areas like Our friendly neighbors to the north. Where it hunt it would be like having my own season!
I don't want a primitive only season, but I'd love to see a couple of archery only units, don't care what kind of archery. But some rifle Hunter would be assed out from their favorite unit etc and that isn't really fair. Maybe an archery only SWA or something.
razorhead, I'm sure the comment was tongue-in-cheek.
What Franzen said.
However, if you're going to be pissed, at least be pissed for the right reason. No one I know feels federal land should be for state residents only. A NR can enjoy federal land just like a res. What you can't do is hunt big or trophy game in designated wilderness areas without a guide like a resident can. The state can't restrict NR usage of federal lands, but they can place restrictions on the animals that live there. The real head-scratcher is you CAN hunt small game in those same areas...unaccompanied. Go figure.
I agree it's a regulation that has zero reasonable justification. Just clarifying what it is that you should actually be pissed at. ;-)
Coexist!
Here in Pa we all get along pretty well considering how many of us there are. We have a late bow season. You can shoot a buck if you haven't killed one and does with antlerless tags. At the same time we have a flintlock ML season. Not as many gun hunters choose to take advantage of it as you might think but it's there for those that want to. Lots of the early season and rut hunters have hung their bows up too so all in all it's pretty quiet. Deer are still close to houses since the orange army ran them there. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I would like to see us become able to use inline muzzleloaders during the late season with unused buck tags though.
"yep, as a state resident, you own all of that public land, great thinking"
Yes, Jaq was certainly tongue in cheek. However, this is not an accurate statement. State doesn't own/control federal lands within their border. They own the animals and control what happens to them/hunting seasons/tags. Even in Wyoming, NRs can "enjoy" the wilderness areas for all things other than getting a hunting tag. Why: outfitter welfare.
MP,
"I would like to see us become able to use inline muzzleloaders during the late season with unused buck tags though."
I was waiting for someone in PA to bring that up. Why not ask the PGC to have a late rifle season. Because that is where scoped in-lines belong. They are NOT a primitive firearm by any means. I have a scoped inline I bought for the special regs areas. Nothing special. CVA with the bolt type action for primer, Bushnell 3x9. With 90gr of Triple7 pushing Hornady 250gr SST's I can hold 1-1/2" group or better at 100 yards. The only limiting factor is single shot and range.
Let the flinters have their two week season under the toughest conditions during PA's season without having to resort to a single shot scoped rifle.
We only have 2 archery only areas of public land that I know of in my state. I hunt both of them. Success varies, firearms hunters always sneaking in, illegal ATV use the typical stuff. One is about 5,000 acres the other one about 2,800.
One area has some mixed swamp, hardwoods, etc. The other is vast tracks of aspen, small trees pretty useless for anything but paper pulp. State hasn't had a plan for managing that one for years after they got it from the Feds. Probably never will as its a "archery only area."
Seems to me, this debate is about technology as it is a season. So, let's examine that. How about we do away with the muzzleloader season. Then, just to be fair, since those guys gave something up, lets us also reduce bow season by the same number of days and rifle as well. That is fair, isn't it? Each equipment type gives something up, nobody is unfairly penalized, right? But wait. What about the state? After all, a seperate black powder season is mostly about revenue. The state will lose that and some bow and rifle tags as well. And what would be the impact on the wildlife? Their is no question, bow hunters are the most selfish hunters in the woods and I have never understood why. Maybe we need a new organization, "Bow Season Matters-Nothing Else Does". Why should bowhunters have "special areas"? What makes them privileged? Why should any equipment type be given special treatment? For over 20-years, I have lobbied for one season, pick your equipment and the same bag limits as current. You can hunt X-number of days with whatever equipment you choose and you can still only kill X-number bucks and X-number does. I am also 100% in favor of open marriages and polygamy. Women should do all the work, make most of the money and men should be free to hunt and fish. We must do away with all this selfishness.
Bowbender I clicked back on this thread anticipating a reply like yours. Believe me I hear you. But what's the difference if I fill my one and only buck tag with one weapon or another? The best solutions are usually a compromise so given a choice I would but a tag that was late muzzleloader season only with no regular firearms season.
If we are worried about deer numbers the thing we really need to look at is the issuing of way too many doe tags. I'm to the point where I do not shoot any does or even small bucks and I won't even push does for my buddies anymore. The final straw for me was the really high number of button bucks I've seen stacked up. Those antlerless tags are the scourge of Pa deer hunting not guns or crossbows.
Do you really want everyone out there in the same few days flinging arrows and lead? Archery has the lowest success rate, rifle the highest. The number of days you get to hunt is determined by the effectiveness of your weapon. Nothing selfish about that. The only thing selfish about me is this. I want the archery season later, because I don't want a buck in velvet. Yeah, Oct 1 through Nov 13. Then Nov 15 through Nov 30th all the guns can take to the mountains. Then I can go back out with my bow all of December if I didn't fill my tag.
Damn, Bowriter, I was right with you until the polygamy bit. I have spent 50 years trying to figure out one woman. Trouble is that once I do I'll never believe it. Two or more would kill me. The part about men should only hunt or fish bears consideration, but I really enjoy my job. Maybe it could become like a hobby.
MP,
Actually I'm not worried about deer numbers. I am concerned about the fact that you feel the need to use a single shot, high powered rifle, during a truly primitive season. Flintlock season has little impact on the deer harvest, especially the buck harvest. Allow in-lines, that will change. I see quite a few buck during the late season. Most are out of bow and flintlock range. However they would be well within range of my in-line.
Wapiti Bob absolutely nailed it with this post earlier. "No group more self centered than bow hunters, followed closely by rifle hunters with points." Nuff Said!
OK I have no skin in the game because Ohio is doing a really good job.
Herd numbers are down but they have dropped the limits in most of the state so it should course correct in 2 to 3 years.
Bowbender I do have one question? In your last post your first sentence says "MP, Actually I'm not worried about deer numbers."
But in the 3rd next sentence you write ". Flintlock season has little impact on the deer harvest, especially the buck harvest."
Then at the end you write "Allow in-lines, that will change. I see quite a few buck during the late season. Most are out of bow and flintlock range. However they would be well within range of my in-line."
If you are not worried about the numbers then why would you care what weapon is being used?
Not bashing just confused and trying to figure it all out?
In many states, bowhunters have lost prime hunting dates to "Early Muzzleloading" seasons as well as "Youth Deer Seasons." That is the reason some bowhunters have a less than favorable opinion of these seasons.
I bet more deer been killed in the history of America by the venerable iron-sighted "lever actions" like the Winchester 94 or the Marlin 44. In terms of ballistics and accuracy, those guns/calibers don't rival the modern scoped muzzleloader or the modern scoped shotgun sluggers. Yet in many states, you could not hunt with an iron sighted 30-30, but you can with the modern muzzy and slugger. Technology ALWAYS exceeds the regs with every weapon and deer season.
In my opinion, it all depends upon the deer herd, and I am assuming that is what this is all about, deer hunting... I live and sadly,, hunt in Northern NY. We have a 7 week long rifle season, 2 weeks of ML and a week of archery. A hunter can kill up to 5 deer a year if they get a DMP, (Deer Management Permit). We also have no real enforcement and fines for poaching are minimal. Our DEC it seems is bent on DECimating our deer herd. They aren't in the business of making the hunting enjoyable or a positive experience. It seems that they just use hunters as a tool to eliminate the deer population. In other states where I have hunted that have good deer numbers and good quality of the deer herd, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky and to a lesser extent, Eastern NC, the gun seasons are short.. Having a long gun season is detrimental to good deer numbers, especially when that gun season is through the duration of the rut, as is the case here in NY. I am not a fan of the in lines being used during ML season, but some folks don't like compound bows being used during archery season. If the state that wants to have decent quality and quantity of animals could adopt average distance/range seasons, say for example, out to 40 yards average capability, Archery to include X-bow, then a out to 100 yd season of Primitive rifle which would cover flint or percussion cap ignition systems with iron sights, and then a long range season which would allow everything else......... Or the state could just cut down on the length of the season entirely in order to get the deer numbers where they want them.
Sadly, here in NY, they DEC seems to be trying to wipe out the deer herd, and the season that we have here is exactly what they like. A long season of guys with rifles who are unemployed because the state has crushed business with over regulation, out hunting, killing everything with hooves for over 2 months every year..
I drive about 70 miles every day through mainly agriculture and have not seen a live deer in the fields since the end of Sep.... I am so thankful that I have the opportunity to hunt in Ohio each year. I hate this state.... Sigh....
I can hunt with my bow from early SEP to the end on January in Maryland. Why would I wan to take away a few weeks for guys and gals that like to hunt with a Muzzy. I'm willing to share the woods.
"In other states where I have hunted that have good deer numbers and good quality of the deer herd, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky and to a lesser extent, Eastern NC, the gun seasons are short."
I know you said to a lesser extent Eastern NC, but hot goodness the rifle season there runs from Oct 15 - Jan 2, that's bucks and does the entire time. The two weeks preceding is muzzleloader season. I'm not sure how that equates to a short gun season.
With practice, an iron sighted 30-30 is a pretty accurate weapon... past 100 yards. That said, I saw a hunting show once where a guy that was touting his company's custom made MLs, shot a mule deer at over 400 yards. He missed the first time, but it was so far away that he reloaded and shot again and hit it. That's nuts. IMO, no reason to cancel the ML season, but I think a lot of the reason for the season is just so gun hunters get another season or less competition. Call a spade a spade. If you like your ML so much, it's a gun - why not hunt with it during the gun season? I see guys bowhunting during rifle season frequently. I don't see guys hunting gun season with inlines.
And putting guns in the bow season is a safety issue, as noted this past September in Colorado. If you want your season, fine. But have it be sometime after archery. IMO, a great place for ML season in CO would be in place 1st or 2nd rifle.
The "ish" was all I needed to see.
"IMO, no reason to cancel the ML season, but I think a lot of the reason for the season is just so gun hunters get another season or less competition."
The same can be said for bow season for the vast majority of hunters I know.
Lol...its funny. Compound hunters bash the traditional guys....traditional guys bash the compound guys...bowhunters bash the rifle hunters...rifle hunters bash the bowhunters...yadayada
Kids these days
LOL!!
That is exactly why one season is the best solution. That way, everything is equal and you hunt with whatever weapon you prefer.
How long, and when would this one season fits all be?
What about a "string" season, (trad bow, compound bow, x-bow) and a "lead" season, (flintlock, cap, inline, shotgun slug, rifle)? You get one season.
I miss the days of side locks. 2 people hunted muzzleloader season in the late season. Man do I miss that! I pry feel about that like the traditional guys feel about compounds. Lol side locks and recurves are harder to master than in lines and compounds. So no I wouldn't get rid of muzzy season but I would go to all tradition if it meant less people in my area. Yes, I'm selfish. Lol
The quote is, "In many states, bowhunters have lost prime hunting dates to "Early Muzzleloading" seasons as well as "Youth Deer Seasons." That is the reason some bowhunters have a less than favorable opinion of these seasons."
Perhaps these states should do as TN has done. Archery opens the fourth Saturday in Sept. Our two-week mzl. season follows in Nov. and is during the prime pre-rut. However, you are free to use a bow if you want. Then, our centerfire rifle season opens and you are free to use a bow-mzl-rifle. You choose the equipment you want. It has been that way for quite some time and I have not heard any complaints except from bow hunters who more days exclusively. Bowhunters in TN have over 100 days, to hunt. And they want more??? Not one thing is stopping them from using a bow from the fourth Sat. in Sept., until after Jan. 1. What we are discussing is nothing more than 100%, pure selfishness. Get a freakin LIFE!
Novemberforever-"When your given states dnr decides to stop unlimited otc tags and go to a draw. Follow the $$$$, i mean license revenue." this makes absolutely no sense, when the DNR'S limit hunting, they limit their revenue in take. Their limiting of units/or a species has to do with management, not greed! At least in Colorado anyways.
"We can use modern 209 primer in-lines, but no pellet powder or sabot bullets. No scopes either. No electronics on ML, except a camera." Sounds good to me. ML are essentially becoming one shot CF rifles and usually it's the first shot that counts, so what's the real difference 90% of the time? Not much.
In the western states with draw units, I'd also like to see a bonus point for trad. bow hunters; and in the general season a bonus point for slug gun users or ML users per above. In other words, at least a little encouragement for those who voluntarily choose weapon restrictions. With the ability of rifles and range finders to reach out to 500 and even 800 yds. and beyond I think it's about time to encourage voluntarily weapon restrictions. One bonus point would do that.
"We can use modern 209 primer in-lines, but no pellet powder or sabot bullets. No scopes either. No electronics on ML, except a camera." Sounds good to me. ML are essentially becoming one shot CF rifles and usually it's the first shot that counts, so what's the real difference 90% of the time? Not much.
In the western states with draw units, I'd also like to see a bonus point for trad. bow hunters; and in the general season a bonus point for slug gun users or ML users per above. In other words, at least a little encouragement for those who voluntarily choose weapon restrictions. With the ability of rifles and range finders to reach out to 500 and even 800 yds. and beyond I think it's about time to encourage voluntarily weapon restrictions. One bonus point would do that.
Here's an idea...have trad. bow and non scope muzzleloader season ONLY for units which have been over hunted and don't have a lot of older age class bulls and bucks. Let this go for 10 yrs. and then the unit reverts back to "everything allowed". Everyone wins because after 10 yrs., those units should be fully of trophy animals as well as having better sex ratios.
"In the western states with draw units, I'd also like to see a bonus point for trad. bow hunters;...In other words, at least a little encouragement for those who voluntarily choose weapon restrictions"
What in the hell makes some of you guys feel so "special" that you should somehow be entitled to anything? Simply put, you're not. What's so hard to understand about that? As you say, you VOLUNTARILY choose to hunt with whatever it is you hunt with. Nobody is forcing you to do so. Just because you choose to hunt with a weapon that is inherently less effective in many people's hands does NOT entitle you to one damn thing. If you choose to hunt with something that is less effective than another legal weapon, great. However, put your Big Boy pants on and learn to live with those restrictions, otherwise pick another weapon. Pretty simple.
For those of you who feel multiple seasons for multiple weapons are not legit, because lesser weapons are not special and do not deserve their own time. I'm still waiting for an answer to the one season any weapon question. When will it be and for how long? And do you really want everyone out there for the same short period of time? I don't.
"What in the hell makes some of you guys feel so "special" that you should somehow be entitled to anything? Simply put, you're not."
I disagree. What makes us different (not special per se) is that we impact the resource less. That's the only reason. But I guess you don't feel "fly fishing only" streams have any rationale.
There is nothing preventing anybody from picking up archery gear and hunting with it either.
David A, I like the 10 yrs, I will either be dead or in a wheelchair and will get quality instead of quantity.
I understand, but just imagine how excited other hunters will be to hunt a unit that has only been trad. hunted for 10 yrs. vs. units with the same - o crappy sex ratios and small bulls/bucks.
Suddenly the previous naysayers might see the wisdom. Almost like the unit wasn't hunted for 10 yrs but wait, it was...there were plenty of hunter days afield. States like Oregon perhaps would benefit from something like this. Plenty of elk, but in general the quality is suffering in far too many units.
At some point, you have to control hunter numbers, their efficiency or the length of the season. I suggest controlling efficiency is the least unpleasant. A lot of hunters WANT that. The other two choices are arguably less appealing.
"Here's an idea...have trad. bow and non scope muzzleloader season ONLY for units which have been over hunted and don't have a lot of older age class bulls and bucks. Let this go for 10 yrs. and then the unit reverts back to "everything allowed". Everyone wins because after 10 yrs., those units should be fully of trophy animals as well as having better sex ratios."
Good mythical idea there. Unfortunately, the wounding rates would probably be thru the roof, at least after a few years. Then you've effectively accomplished nothing, but make "traditional" hunting look bad.
I'd say wyobllshooter, pretty much nailed it that last post. And, David pretty much confirmed what is wrong with a lot of guys that carry trad bows. God Bless
I think that if only tradbows were allowed as archery gear, you'd quickly see the end of archery seasons. The group would be small in number and would get no support from compound shooters. Not likely the P&Y org would lend their weight either. You'd have to go it on your own.
Every time you go to a smaller definition, you weaken your position.
If you got the trad only season, soon enough you'd split off into self bow or all wood as aposed to laminate/glass And for sure the old English longbow has a disadvantage and should have a little bit more special season. And on it would go.
Maybe just be happy that you have so many people in your season. Strength in numbers you know.
DA,
"I disagree. What makes us different (not special per se) is that we impact the resource less. That's the only reason. But I guess you don't feel "fly fishing only" streams have any rationale."
Now that fly fishing.... Are you using a spilt cane rod, horsehair leader, urine stained fox fur on the flies? Or are you using a fast action Sage 9' 4 weight, with a twelve foot tapered leader, so you can pound out the 75' cast, throwing in a couple of "S" mends and a modified parachute mend to avoid drag from the the three different currents, so you can hit the pocket tucked in against the bank?
Heck no fly fishing deserves not one special recognition, area, designation, etc...... Thanks to the dimwits at TU, we have lost the best streams or, sections of streams, in this state for catch and release trout fishing due to their agenda. And, they routinely work to control access, increase fees for usage on public owned streams!, and limit recreation around these areas. So, heck no they do not deserve it! They use public resource, paid for by public money's, to fund their for their restricted play ground.
That was a horrible analogy to try and defend your point David. Because it gives a real good insight on how negative these trad only seasons would impact bowhunting.
"Unfortunately, the wounding rates would probably be thru the roof, at least after a few years. Then you've effectively accomplished nothing, but make "traditional" hunting look bad."
The test question is simple: would you rather hunt a unit that has only had a limited number of trad. bowhunters and trad. nonscoped muzzle loaders hunt it for 10 years or would you rather hunt the same unit after 10 years when it was open to all bowhunters, unrestricted muzzleloader (technology wise) and rifle hunters as typical. C'mon! I don't think many would choose the latter.
We have crappy and mediocre elk hunting in many if not most units precisely because of too many hunters and/or unlimited technology. The habitat is more than adequate in many units yet the hunting is lousy. Why? I'll tell you, it's because of what we are doing! We end up with whatever we decide to do. Obviously, we are not making the right decisions in a lot of areas.
This is not calling for trad. only units. It's not permanent and I think should primarily be considered for units that are known to have poor quality in terms of mature bulls and cow: bull ratios. Or just close the unit down or restrict it to 5 tags! Why not restrict technology and have more hunter days afield by more hunters who would not be impacting the resource nearly as much?
And this probably work better for mule deer esp. for hard antler hunts. You can have quite a few guys hunting and enjoying their days afield and yet very little impact on the population, allowing all age class bucks to prosper. After a number of years, reopen the unit as it was before. I'm sure the general season hunters will be highly motivated to prefer just such a unit at that time.
I am not so sure fly fishing is less effective than worming or spinners. I only flyfish and on those non-scheduled rivers in Newfy, I do well. It is all about presentation and matching the hatch. I fish barbless as salmon rivers require it. Last summer I was fishing Bakers Brook alongside two old guys using worms on spinner and I caught over 100 seatrout. The only ones I kept I gave to those older gentlmen. Fly fishermen don't need special areas, but I think the issue is barbed hooks. Even with barbless, studies have shown a 10% mortality. Salmon are very vulnerable as they fight to the death and in order to hold them the hook needs to really penetrate. Get them in fast, and release them quick. I am one of those who is always busy. Therefore, groundhunting, stumping, and beating the water to a froth while working a river are my bag.
RE: fly fishing streams: "That was a horrible analogy to try and defend your point David."
Really? I don't think so. But, I'm not an expert. And perhaps New Zealand, etc. have it all wrong and are idiots.
Re: "Are you using a spilt cane rod, horsehair leader, urine stained fox fur on the flies? Or are you using a fast action Sage 9' 4 weight, with a twelve foot tapered leader, so you can ..."
Urine stained fox fur? We're kinda' in the "argument of extremes" and as usual, it's weak.
David, you keep show casing the negative side of this like it would be a great thing. None of that would be good for hunting. Restrictions are currently hurting hunting. Not helping it. Driving costs up, making participation lower, etc.... Your dream is another's nightmare.
Lawdy, about late April early May, a good fly fishermen will smoke a bait fisherman. I've seen and, done it so many times. I'm not a good fly fishermen either. So, fly fishing can be more effective.
David's examples implicate that he deserves special exceptions based on his choices. Nothing more. And, he is using one sided justification to prove to himself that he is right in feeling that way. God Bless men
"Urine stained fox fur? We're kinda' in the "argument of extremes" and as usual, it's weak."
Physician heal thyself. On one hand technology is the issue and on the other hand it's not. Whatever, continue with your verbal masturbation. That bump you feel on your ass? That's a wall you eletists are backing in to.
"We impact the resource less..." Now, let us just examine that.
Why do you think we have hunting seasons? Has it dawned on you, hunting is the most effective form of game management? Hunting is not about impacting the resource less. That is done by setting limits and quotas. Hunting is the only way a state can control game animal populations. Then, of course, there is the revenue factor. If any state were to go, for one year, to archery only, in all probability, the DNR or game agency would go broke and the big game population would explode.
special seasons are designated normally because the weapons are much tougher to use to fill tags
recurves, longbows, flintlocks etc
compounds, crossbows and the new muzzleloaders and all their accessories IMO have come far enough that G&F needs to look into editing the seasons for which weapons etc.
the game has changed that much, primitive and challenging isn't what it used to be
It should also be pointed out that you cannot "stockpile" wildlife. It will seem to be going great until that big snow year. Then you could easily drop to ten percent of your fall population. Game numbers always have to be managed under carrying capacity to avoid weather related die offs and to prevent a "predator pit" situation. The later just takes a few more years to accomplish what a heavy snow/cold will do in one cycle.
But I guess a lucky few would have a private preserve for a while.
Quote SC "special seasons are designated normally because the weapons are much tougher to use to fill tags recurves, longbows, flintlocks etc".
I'm sure that the seasons have evolved alongside the changes in technology. Are there seasons/limits/tags that are the same as they were pre-compound?
Probably most game departments crunch the hunter's success numbers and take into account other mortalities before releasing annual allowable kills per species. Otherwise they could save a pile of time, trouble and money and just tell you to refer back to your 1965 regulation booklet.
Do you actually have game managers in your state that don't know the compound has been invented and is being used?
Like some of the wiser folks here I stopped growing a hunting beard because as I told my father in law when he grew his" it looks like the underside of a deer's tail" We are not faced with too many hunting options we are faced with too few hunters. Why would this be a problem? It is simple. When folks stop valuing deer for meat in the freezer and antlers on the wall they also stop funding the efforts to keep habitat for all wildlife. We hunters are unique as we take game because we love nature. In Vermont, where I live, deer were sacred a generation ago. Not so much today. We have a hunter success rate in the single digits in all seasons. I hunt with a bow , rifle and muzzle loader. I consider myself successful because I take deer two out of three years in one of the seasons. We hunters need to unite and recruit a new a new generation. If they use the easiest legal means so be it. They are still here to support our way of life. The best will do as many here have. They will add challenges to themselves. Please don't try to get your state to control the tool of choice. The anti everything folks much revel in our lack of unity.
"David's examples implicate that he deserves special exceptions based on his choices. Nothing more." Wrong. You could also limit rifle technology by say requiring slug guns instead of 500 yd. capable rifles. And you can limit tag numbers and season length to accomplish the objective. "You can't stockpile game" is a statement that some wildlife officials like to banter around. Examine the statement more closely and it doesn't make sense in many situation, esp. in states and units that don't have much winter kill.
It's not rocket size that over hunting has ruined many units. To rehabilitate those units you have to reduce hunter days afield or hunting efficiency. It is pretty much the same in fishing. Obviously a stream that is fished less and with less killing of fish is going to give you a better fishing experience that if the same stream were open year round to all comers with any type of fishing technology allowed.
Further, some units in my home state of Arizona probably should be closed to deer hunting for a few years because of declining buck quality. Ask any long term taxidermists what they have seen coming out of the northern units in the last 20 or 30 years. The decline is down down down. I'm referring to buck spread, points, and score not to mention age. Of course, there is a danger in reducing hunter participation, so it makes sense to consider alternatives.
Further, I'm not the only one suggesting this. For example New Mexico Game and Fish has put some units off limits for center fire rifle. Why? Because of the decline in buck quality and quantity, obviously. You can be sure they wanted the revenue, but they had to do something.
Look at Oregon. Why doesn't Oregon have superb Rocky Mtn. elk quality like New Mexico or Arizona? Care to explain that? The habitat is there. Winter kill is not a huge issue. The answer in a nutshell is lack of resolve to make changes...
David A. Isn't it a wonderful coincidence that the saviour for the system happens to be your tool of choice.
Why not just come out and say that you want a special season for you?
Where you would stockpile these animals, has historically never suffered a weather related die off?
Drought, lack of forage?
Gradually building but significant increase in predators.
And you just stating "I don't think so" is not a counter point.
Your modus operandi is always just dismissivenes.
Ambush, because trad. archery and trad. muzzloaders would IMO have the least impact on the resource. I don't even own a muzzloader and have no interest in hunting with one, btw. As I said above, I also be very happy to see slug guns vs. 500 yd. rifles.
"Can't stockpile animals" is no justification for highly skewed sex ratios and lack of mature bucks and bulls. Hunting is supposed to help and maintain wildlife, at least that's what we like to say. It's not helping to have barely mature bucks and bulls doing most of the breeding and if you don't know why, you should.
Anyway, you most certainly can stockpile animals, who wouldn't rather hunt a private ranch where there has been no hunting or minimal hunting vs. a heavily hunted public ranch? Whoever came up with that line should go take a lie detector test to prove they are just an idiot instead of being a liar. This is precisely what many expensive ranches offer, an abundance of big bucks and bulls waay over what you find in public ranches/units or even in Nature.
Ok. I will only say this one more time. Management is NOT about giving oppurtunity to a small segment of the populace [ as in, you] but rather to control wildlife numbers while maximizing hunter opportunity and days. And, yes, revenue.
If you are happy with drawing a good tag every several to many years than good for you. Many hunters don't have such luxury. You have to quit superimposing your criteria for a "quality hunt" onto other hunters. It seems you would have everyone else wait while you indulge. For the betterment of wildlife, of course.
And where or what should the less than capable hunt for that ten year period?
And you're not seriously comparing the Drury's food plot "wild' deer farms to a natural environment either, right? No, that would be silly, eh.
"Highly skewed sex ratios". Have you let the local biologists in on this? Perhaps with your credentials, educational experience and field work they will give careful consideration. Certainly a peer to peer exchange would be respected?
Now, I have investigated and read many of your posts, here, Leatherwall and Tradtalk. For the most part, it is all the same stuff with a different lead-in. You could have one hundred people tell you that your shirt is white when you think it's black. Your only response would be to claim that you ran into one hundred stupid people in a row.
And for that reason, this is a useless exchange. I won't call it a debate.
I will quit and let you congratulate yourself on another victory.
I'll put on my board shorts, TEVA river sandals, grab my 5' ultra light spinning rod and reel, a few choice spinners and go up against any fly fisherman. In the meantime, let me into all of these units with too many cows and does, I'll participate in correcting the ratio. You can wait 10 years for your antlers, I wanna eat this year!
Ambush, you've resorted to ad hominem attacks, e.g. "Highly skewed sex ratios" Have you let the local biologists in on this? Perhaps with your credentials, educational experience..." Trust there is a good chance I have equal or better academic credentials in biology than they do.
Then you continue the personal attacks with vague references to other threads, other posts, other websites. What does any of that have to do with the topic of limiting weapon efficiency? I'll tell you, none. You just want to put down someone you disagree with and so you go ad hominem instead of attacking or debating the subject.
Re: "If you are happy with drawing a good tag every several to many years than good for you. Many hunters don't have such luxury." Wouldn't be nearly the problem we typically have now if we limited weapon efficiency. It's not rocket science. Weapon efficiency, days a field/hunter numbers, length of season - those are the relevant factors.
If you are happy with deer and elk and deer hunting as it is in your state, don't change a thing. If you want better quality, all three factors could be manipulated. If you want better quality for all hunters I suggest weapon efficiency is something that should be looked at the most. And no, it doesn't have to be about trad. bowhunting, it could be about going to slug guns instead of 500 yrd. centerfire rifles. Other states have already been doing this for decades!
In summary, how about we manage a few more areas instead of "if it's brown, it's down" mindset? If hunters don't care enough about the health of elk and deer herd's age classes and sex ratios, then the antis will figure out we're vulnerable there for lawsuits. Hunting is supposed to help elk and deer populations, correct? Then where is your concern for their populational health?
I know it didn't take the first time, so I'll try to give a little more explanation this time. If you allow a blossoming "trophy" unit to be hunted by only those using "traditional" weaponry, you will soon have a group of hunters that become part of this "traditional" club, while having no business taking to the field with these weapons in hand. The numbers may not be huge, but we all know some people just can't resist when it comes to antlers.
What will the answer be... perhaps a proficiency test? Maybe set the limit just beyond the proficiency of David? Like others have said... just say the words "I just want a special season for me".
I hate bonus points.
I hate fly fishing only.
I hate "trophy" management.
I live in a state that uses resource allocation in its season setting . Everyone is always scrambling to add crumbs to their piece of the pie. It's easier and more fun to go to Montana or Idaho.
To answer the original question, no and no.
I would however, take more days of waterfowl and chukar hunting.
I'm wondering why a any weapon season wouldn't work. You buy a tag, pick your weapon of choice, and hunt till your tag is filled or the season closes. The hunter can be as efficient or inefficient as they choose.
"Any weapon season" We already have that, it's called rifle season.
David, you managed again to sidestep every direct question.
How do you define a "Quality Hunt"? Simple direct question.
Ambush - G&F IMO used to be about maximizing hunting opportunities coupled with herd management.
I think many states have gone far off that path. Management is now motivated by favors, politics, money etc.
Take Arkansas .... AG&F brought in CWD elk 30 years ago and now we have the highest infected rate of CWD in the US but hey, people love to hear the elk bugle and money comes in to see them. Used to have very few hogs and none in the northern part of the state and now? hogs everywhere, invasive, destructive ... but there are reasons for the G&F to protect them. A decimated turkey population but still have 2 gobbler limits and bearded hens legal.
Its baffling what the G&F does and why so if there was talk on closing muzz season here, I bet it would boil down to (A) does the commissioners muzz hunt and/or (B) does anyone with money muzz hunt.
If they do, then muzz stays. Simple as that IMO
Stealthy, I will certainly agree that politics can play a huge role in management.
Here in BC , hunters have been made acutely and painfully aware of what can happen if the right ear is whispered into.
We have a provincial election coming in a few months and the grizzly bear hunt is shaping up to be a factor. One party has come out and stated clearly that if elected the non resident hunt will end. Period. Of course the resident hunt will be right behind it.
We,as hunters in BC have never had a strong, cohesive voice and we are now suffering for it. And one of the main reasons is that different types of hunters cause division.
Every time you narrow your definition your group becomes smaller and less relevant.
There is strength in number I can't disagree with that however, the big tent theory in hunting I don't subscribe to anymore because hunting has become about P&Y inches and money more and more and less and less about the hunting - that's not my choice, its just the natural progression of things when money gets injected.
More and more as new things enter into hunting - high fences, high dollar leasing, technology etc, the more and more fracturing will occur. It is inevtiable
" If you allow a blossoming "trophy" unit to be hunted by only those using "traditional" weaponry, you will soon have " ...what? The start point was not a trophy unit but an overhunted, out of whack sex ration and few mature deer. The point was to get the unit back to where it should have been with more natural sex ratios and more natural mature classes of deer. THEN after this has been accomplished you let the rifle guys go at it again. In the meantime another messed up unit will be rehabilitated by weapon restrictions.
And you don't have to use the word "traditional"...as in trad. archery. That was one way to do it plus trad. muzzleloader, but there are other ways such as "archery only" or going to slug guns, etc. Restrict weapon efficiency until the herds come back to some degree of populational health. This is what hunting is supposed to do vs. screwing the sex ratios and ages classes all the heck up! Hunting can be used as a management tool for good or bad.
Ambush, a quality hunt obviously is extremely subjective. I think you would do better to ask what a quality unit is. I would say quality genetics and quality/healthy sex ratios and age classes and quality/healthy habitat as a start. However, I'm pretty sure that whatever my answer you are looking for an opening to land a punch. I don't have an interest in fighting with you or anyone else, but I do have an interest in hunters working for healthy deer and elk populations and ditto of course for habitat. We are not achieving this if weapon efficiency and/or too much hunting pressure creates a reversal of those goals.
Weapon efficiency has nothing to do with healthy game populations given appropriate game management. Efficiency can drive management schemes such that it reduces opportunity (although there are very few examples of this), but is not in and of itself a detriment to populations.
David, as well as a successful hunter you are surely a Square Dancer to.
Half step back , Allemande right and a Dosey Doe.
At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that my assesment was correct
""Any weapon season" We already have that, it's called rifle season."
Not exactly, for elk you currently have an archery season, a muzzleloader season (which coincides with archery), and then a rifle season.
So essentially, say archery elk tags being filled.... many states if I recall have roughly a 10% success rate.....and that is either sex for the most part. And the vast number of those using compound bows.
Am I to understand a 10% rate in some eyes is somehow TOO high? It's "too easy"? Hypothetically 2-3% is somehow better? Better for who?
I'd go look at muzzleloader rates and then rifle rates.... or would if I really cared, but have a feeling it's higher, but not a GREAT deal higher. Mostly more numbers.
IMO it's a false premise being pushed here, that somehow people are TOO successful with their hunting and should be brought down to other levels (set by other people) That a pretty big distortion of reality.
Again..... drilled down the entire basis for this whole argument is to benefit a handful of people at the expense of some others, not better manage wildlife.
"If people want to hunt in OUR primitive (be it bow or firearm) season nothing is stopping them from doing so...." Correct. Just as there is nothing stopping ANYONE from using their tools of choice right now, even those traditional or primitive. If not having what you feel is adequate success (or the special exclusive experience that should be reserved for your personal choice)..... the issue is NOT with all the other hunters.
"Bph, you missed his point. Most states have a lesser weapon rule..ie you can use any lesser weapon during rifle season."
No I get that, but I'm going the other way with it. My point was during the "exclusionary" archery season you can't use a rifle. In short, "any weapon season" all season long.
"Again..... drilled down the entire basis for this whole argument is to benefit a handful of people at the expense of some others, not better manage wildlife."
...but the guy says he's just trying to help everybody ELSE out.... cough... cough. Probably ought to stick with helping US out by giving another STAR presentation.
Weapon efficiency has nothing to do with healthy game populations given appropriate game management. Efficiency can drive management schemes such that it reduces opportunity (although there are very few examples of this), but is not in and of itself a detriment to populations." Translation, you'd have to reduce hunter numbers and/or length of season or timing of hunt.
That is correct. And game managers have the unenviable job of balancing all that with hunter retention/recruitment.
What is unsaid in your endeavor to nudge other hunters toward the least efficient weapon type in order to preserve or expand hunting opportunity is that it is a thinly veiled effort to increase YOUR hunting opportunity. That's not lost on us.
Ambush, I tried to answer the question I think you wanted to ask. OK, a quality hunt for me is hunting in a quality unit with my friends A, B, C and I got my big buck/bull in the last 5 minutes of the hunt, and the weather was great, scenery was great, we had a great camp, we even did some fishing, and I made a great shot, we did it all ourselves, we didn't see any other hunters, we got the meat out and it tastes great, blah blah...who cares? And your personal attacks are getting old. I don't even know you and have no grudge against you. Grow up!
And you're also wrong if you think I want just a trad. archery season just for me or for other trad. bowhunters! NO! If you want the quickest way to way to rehabilitate a game unit that has been overhunted, in general I would say the fastest way in order of descending time for results would be something like 1) stop all hunting 2) limited trad. bowhunting 3) archery only season 4) archery only plus restricted muzzleloaders 5) no change in archery but slug guns must be used in general season...or along these lines, I don't have time to write an essay on this. Or else make no change in weapons and have a very small number of tags or a very limited time to hunt. There are only so many variables, but limiting weapon efficiency is not an original idea, it does work! Regardles, it is NOT all about me or about trad. archery seasons to make me happy. NO! The health of the game populations is what is important and more important than my hunts. As I have said, some units should just be given a rest for a few years because there was no beneficial game management! I'm a pilot and have done my own aerial surveys over hundreds of thousands of acres in S. Arizona and I can tell you deer populations are in serious decline from 20 yrs. ago when I first flew the same areas. No a lot of this may be due to drought and predation and I don't deny that. All of these things have to be looked at. And fyi, I am a biologist.
Matt, you posted before my last post. READ IT! You and Ambush are assuming my selfish motives as we all have dictated my suggestion. You and Ambush are both wrong to impute this. I would have made a weapon efficiency suggestion even if I was living overseas permanently and had no skin in the game. The health of the game populations comes before my or your or anyone's particular weapon choice! CAN I BE ANY MORE CLEAR?
"The health of the game populations comes before my or your or anyone's particular weapon choice! CAN I BE ANY MORE CLEAR?"
But that isn't true, and I only need to look up 1 post above to make my case:
" If you want the quickest way to way to rehabilitate a game unit that has been overhunted, in general I would say the fastest way in order of descending time for results would be something like 1) stop all hunting 2) limited trad. bowhunting 3) archery only season 4) archery only plus restricted muzzleloaders 5) no change in archery but slug guns must be used in general season...or along these lines..."
The equitable way to do something like that is to determine what a reasonable take is to help grow the herd and re-establish age structure, and then spread the opportunity between various weapon types - archery, ML, general. It is....interesting....that the obvious and equitable solution doesn't even make your list. Do you think it is coincidental that, with your world view coming through osage-colored glasses, you overlooked that as an option?
Do you want equitable or do you want speed? The quickest way is to stop hunting in the unit. That's equally fair to everyone, correct? Well, I had already suggested that. I'm open to all possibilities, and you keep saying to don't believe my motives despite what I just wrote, so Matt, if you want to have a discussion start with giving the other person some credit for not being a liar. Just because I proposed a trad. hunt doesn't mean it's because I want to be in that hunt. Where are we even talking about? Colorado, I don't want to hunt there. Or some unit in AZ? Odds are I wouldn't want to hunt that unit, I've already got my places. It's a hypothetical and therefore I'm not getting any benefit. I also said slug guns should be considered. Do you think I have a slug gun or want to hunt with a slug gun, also? The answer is no. You and Ambush are wrong there is no selfish motive. I'm booked up to where I hunt, got it? It's not about me.Wildlife comes first, we're second. At least in my book. Maybe it's because I am or rather was a biologist. That said we can have both great hunting and great wildlife populations, but if you don't think hunting efficiency is a problem, then fine end of discussion. If you do think it is a problem then all options should be considered. Fairness in general is preferred but some situations you need quick remedies even if it includes shutting the unit down for a few years.
See you guys in the field. These discussions invariably end up with personal attacks and some here will even search out other threads and even other forums and sites to see if there is anything about a poster to hate. I'd rather build someone up than tear him down and try to make him out to be a liar. It comes down to a choice, and negativity is just not my thing.
"I'm booked up to where I hunt, got it? It's not about me.Wildlife comes first, we're second."
Wildlife comes first, but YOU'RE second. If there is a problem in terms of sex ratios or age class, I am all for shutting down a unit to get things in order. I don't know which of the hunter division threads it was on, but you had a plan of 'wouldn't other hunters be appreciative if only trad archery hunters got to hunt the unit for 10 years to let the herd build back up?'
No, they wouldn't. Nor is that a "fair" alternative. They would prefer to get their equal % of the opportunity - even if that is some percentage of 0%.
I don't know if you even realize it - I almost bet you don't - but you come from a place of "if there is any, me first because [insert your reason why your hunting method is somehow preferable]".
What if rifle hunters posted a thread to get rid of bow season?
Matt, I don't know how I could have been any clearer in repeatly stating this is not about "me first" or even "trad first". I made one hypothetical proposal and you seem to think that is my religion. If I have a religious motto for this topic it is that the health of game populations should come before hunter's interests. Not my interests or yours or any one else's. CAN I POSSIBLY BE ANY CLEARER? (and now some idiot is thinking, "aw he doesn't really mean that, he just wants a longbow season all year long..."
They have. But what is uncommon is for rifle hunters to voluntarily restrict their weapons range and efficiency. Rather the trend is always for farther and farther capability. E.g. the history of muzzloading weapons in the last 20 yrs. It's amazing some states have said, in effect, it's gone too far and we're restricting some of that. It's also amazing some states only allow slug guns for deer hunting (although I suspect it's more for safety reasons than anything else).
For those that think I'm anti gun and can't walk the talk, here is a mule deer buck I took with an airgun (legally). 20 yd. shot. I supported the petition to make big bore airguns legal for deer hunting in AZ and now it is. This may have been the first mule deer taken (legally) by airgun since the Lewis and Clark expedition. I am pro gun and pro weapon efficiency restrictions (preferably self imposed).
In states with too many deer, add a season for lever action 30/30 rifles only. The "Classic" tag. Winchester or my favorite, Marlin.
I hadn't come back to this thread in a while. Now what I find most interesting is that someone is willing to make "weapon efficiency" a part of their argument.
In this day and age of defending ANY hunting against animal rights activists and environmental zealots (all bent on getting rid of ALL hunting...) why on earth would anyone choose to argue that bowhunting (e.g. recurve or self bow) is "inefficient?"
The self-righteous stuff is downright demeaning and I would suggest, counter productive.
Pete
If you're going to call me self-righteous I'll call you defensive. Also, good point the efficiency vs opportunity could have the wrong connotation and should be changed to: Ethical range efficiency vs hunting opportunity
So there you go, another strawman argument but a good point. A strawman argument is one one side of the debate erects an fake argument (strawman) that is completely outside of the original debate and then proceeds to destroy their own strawman argument while avoiding the original argument of the debate.
I'd rather wait 10 years to hunt a unit with only 100 other hunters, than wait 0 years to hunt a unit with 1000 trad bow hunters.
Oh, I forgot. I just got an email from Missouri conservation. Missouri's "alternative methods" season deer kill results came in. . . 10,900 or so deer kills.
That was a 10 day season over Christmas and New Year's holidays, which allows not only scoped in-line muzzleloaders, but centerfire pistols, atlatls, compounds, recurves, longbows, cap and ball pistols and rifles, etc.
That's going to end up being around 4% of the total deer kill for the state of Missouri in 2016-2017.
So, it's almost nothing in the overall scheme of Missouri's deer kill. Why would we need to do away with a season that killed only 4% of the total deer kill?
Doesn't make much sense to me.
And no, I didn't even hunt a single day during that ten day period, either bow or muzzleloader.
Which is my point, that's 900 people a year for 10 years who haven't had an opportunity to hunt. It's 9000 people total:
9000 unsold tags=$$$ in our wildlife department funding and public lands value
...this in a nutshell was the original intent behind primitive seasons...and it appears to be a mindset that has been lost with the passing of time
bake, you bring up a good point but if I were a rifle Hunter and enjoyed a rifle season smack dab in the middle of the rut as in your state I wouldn't be as likely to hunt during the special season either. ...move that season to better dates pre-rifle and you have a lot higher participation as well as higher success.
"I'd rather wait 10 years to hunt a unit with only 100 other hunters, than wait 0 years to hunt a unit with 1000 trad bow hunters."
If the major three groups were trad bows, muzzleloaders of old, and slug guns vs. 500 yd. rifles, I think the hunting will be considerably better, everyone would see a lot more game, and we wouldn't have 10 yr. or lifetime waits in the Western states (which is ridiculous). I remember what it was like 40 yrs. ago in AZ and there weren't these long waits to get drawn.
I'd rather bowhunt a unit with 100 guys shooting 500 yard rifles, than 1000 trad, muzzleloader or slug gun hunters.
I'd rather see less game, of higher quality and better chances to kill, than see LOTS of game, that were all spooky from getting bounced around from 1000 other hunters.
Many hunters, especially whitetail hunters, fail to recognize "a drawing, or quota" as a loss of opportunity. Technology making killing easier, as well as too many hunters (and new recruitments) for available lands are all factors. Any technology hunters embrace which makes shooting and killing easier will lead to loss of opportunity. Where do your choices fit in?
"Any technology hunters embrace which makes shooting and killing easier will lead to loss of opportunity. " Bingo! The only fly in the soup is whether we have enough hunters to generate enough revenue for G& F and also have enough votes. But aside from that, I prefer the number of hunters 40 yrs. ago which seemed like half of what we have today, but I could be wrong.
Access and loss of habitat negatively impact opportunity FAR more than any of these "technological advances" ever will.
I mentioned they were factors, not the only factors. Loss of habitat concentrates hunters and limits wildlife expansion, major factors for sure. Hunters can however easily limit the use of technology, if they so choose. Far more difficult to expand or repopulate an animals former range. Best to control the obvious first. Why make killing easier, when in many instances we are facing less ?
MB
"Any technology hunters embrace which makes shooting and killing easier will lead to loss of opportunity."
Really? 'Cause the history of Archery season in PA shows the complete opposite.
1951 - Special 12- day open season authorized for hunting deer with bows and arrows exclusively, under a special $2 archery license.
1957 - Hunting of deer of both sexes with bow and arrow during the archery season authorized -- the requirement of an antlerless deer license during archery season eliminated.
1959 – Archery season expanded to 24 days of hunting.
1964 - Extended (or late or winter) archery deer season started in certain sections of the state; expanded to statewide season starting in 1967.
1967 - First statewide extended (or late or winter) archery deer season.
1973 – Compound bows were made legal for hunting.
1987 - Bonus deer program adopted for Southeastern Special Regulations Area. counties giving hunters with appropriate licenses the chance to take two deer in one license year. At least one of the two deer must be antlerless.
1988 - Bonus deer program implemented statewide giving hunters with appropriate licenses the chance to take two deer in one license year. One of the two deer must be antlerless.
1990 - Hunters may buy two bonus licenses, which will permit them to harvest of up to three deer. Two of the three deer must be antlerless.
1992 - Archery season expanded an additional week for antlered deer hunting only; four weeks either sex hunting; one antlered deer only.
1993 - Archery deer season expanded an additional two weeks; six weeks either-sex hunting.
In the last two years in our special regs (weapon limited - population center) archery season starts the 3rd week in September and runs to the beginning of rifle season, which is the Monday after Thanksgiving.
So tell me again how technology has limited my opportunity.
Yep, that's the typical line...smh Let me put it to you this way: A boat is slowly filling with water, there are two holes. One represents loss of land access, The other represents weapons range efficiency. Wouldn't you want to plug both holes? I mean one may be bigger than the other but they may both have potential to sink the boat.
Red Herring: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.
"Hunters can however easily limit the use of technology, if they so choose."
Agree 100%. What you seem to have a difficult time understanding is that people choose to limit that technology to different degrees. Doesn't make you a better hunter, doesn't make you a worse hunter. It just makes you a different hunter than others. If you want to limit your shooting opportunities to 20yds or so, great. I'll still have those same 20yd opportunities, sometimes much closer. Only difference is that I will also have 40yd opportunities that I wouldn't have if I limited myself to close yardage only. Just the way I like it.
I never said anyone is better than anyone else, you made that up all by yourself. I merely inferred that hunters need to learn to limit themselves, not wait for a mandate. As usual, many have only a "whitetail deer in my state" mentality. Apparently no ability to see a larger and more encompassing picture.
MB,
"As usual, many have only a "whitetail deer in my state" mentality. Apparently no ability to see a larger and more encompassing picture."
I took the "technology destroys opportunity" bravo sierra and countered it. You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts.
BTW, you guys want to continue the "trad" battle, go shit in your own bed. Two threads is enough. Not sure what the purpose is, guess it was getting boring on the LW.
"Not sure what the purpose is, guess it was getting boring on the LW. "
LOL! My thoughts exactly....
"Which is my point, that's 900 people a year for 10 years who haven't had an opportunity to hunt. It's 9000 people total:
9000 unsold tags=$$$ in our wildlife department funding and public lands value"
Your argument makes no sense, because you are the one that started this thread questioning whether the muzzleloader season should be eliminated. You propose/question that one revenue generating special interest season should be eliminated and replaced with a different special interest season, specifically one that is important to YOU.
One thing that affects deer density is posting. Southern NH has a full season of does with the ability of an extra tag. The problem is finding a place to hunt. My brother is a UNH fruit specialist. We got 14 depredation permits just out of one orchard that is surrounded by posted land. A bowhunter in Somersworth shot a deer on his little patch of woods and it ended up in the back yard of his anti-hunting neighbor, still alive. They called the cops and a vet to save the deer. Turned into a real cluster. I live up in Northern NH where bears outnumber deer. We have no doe days and no posted land to speak of. Some towns feed deer but when you see them feeding in feeding areas, you have to realize that those deer travel over 20 miles to reach winter yards. We tagged one deer that traveled 28 miles and once there, averaged 11 miles a day hitting yards where they were fed. In addition, our deer are big woods deer that deal with huge snowfalls and at least 20 subzero days per winter. The Southern part of our state is a lot milder.
Well isn't that how muzzleloader and archery seasons started in the first place? Special interest groups "selfishly" carved out part of a season for themselves! For some reason I guess that's not "fair" enough for today's mindset?
Questionable if G&F should take in revenue if it hurts populational health of game. If G&F mandated restrictions on muzzleloader technology, you wouldn't lose 9000 hunters/or the revenue. A good percentage would limit their technology. But not if G&F just asks for voluntary restrictions.
"For some reason I guess that's not "fair" enough for today's mindset?"
Have to say it's refreshing to see that real motives come out and admitted. What was left out is the part, you know, in the OP...... about "getting rid" of someone ELSE'S season to support yours.
Thanks TD. Quicker trigger.
Interesting that some infer that anyone is getting rid of someone else's season when they way they got that season was taking it from another user group. In too many states, muzzleloading, youth gun hunting seasons, and crossbows have been placed into existing archery-only seasons. In my home state of Kentucky, it used to be archery-only until the opening of general gun season in early November. They gave muzzleloaders a weekend in late October. Then it was a weekend in early October for a youth gun season. Then it was the first half of October to crossbow hunters. While you can continue to use a bow during all of these season, the archery-only season barely exists anymore. That is what has many bowhunters upset. Now...just exactly who got rid of who's season!
Ollie, understand your frustration with Kentucky's situation and you bring up valid points for that state. However, if you go back and read the OP's posts, the reasons he gives for doing away with muzzy seasons are much more self-serving.
With today's modern inlnes there is no need for a separate muzzeloading season in states where inlines are allowed in special seasons. Same is true of archery where crossbows are allowed. May as well have one season and hunters use a weapon of their choice. The day of special seasons and entitlements should come to an end.
Enough of this one season use any weapon crap. I am still waiting to hear how this would work. When, and how short will the season be? And do you really want everyone out there for the same short period of time? No one has answered this yet, trust me it will be a cluster muck. As for those of you who only wan to see trophy animals, take yourself to a high fence. Many of us actually like spending time in the woods, without everyone else being out there, like seeing game, and actually love to eat the game we kill, not just hang the head on the wall.
^^^Limit the number of tags to take the appropriate amount of animals, include all of the seasons into one big any weapon season and let people hunt until the tags are filled or the season ends.
^I like this, September-January is hunting season, go have fun with whatever you want to use
Sure! September-January huh?! Yeah right more like 3-4 weeks
What Ollie said . Iowa is one of the few states where the game department has not sold the deer . My home state of Tennessee has been doing this for years . Mr. Sloan made a statement about Tennessee regulations and he had heard no one complaining. I would submit that is because many of us stoped banging our heads against the wall years ago and started going out of state to hunt and spend our money there . Now Tennessee has started changing its regulations for the better , but still have a long ways to go to get the heard in a healthy balance . I submit this may have been done in the response to loss of revenue that is going out of state . The ones of us who started hunting in the 60s and 70s know it is the bow hunters that have lost there seasons . No gun season belongs durning the mating season , unless it is a limited draw . Mordern muzzloaders are just single shot rifes and this is not taken into account by game mangers now . My friends inline muzzloader is more accurate than his custom made center fire rifle . The farthest he has killed a deer with it so far has been 510 yards and that is because he has not had a longer shot . He feels 700 yards is very viable with the muzzloader he has . It will shoot a 5 in 5 shot group at that range . The photo I have included is a 10 shot group at 100 yds . I have been in a lot of mid west states and most are on down hill because they are selling there deer like the south has done for years . I love my home state of Tennessee, but it's whitetail heard has to be in top 5 worst managed heards in the nation when you are talking about overall health of heard dynamics.
ACB, thanks for the pic which is worth more than 1000 yds. err, I mean 1000 words. Man's nature is to push the limit and so yes you are absolutely right, "modern muzzloaders are just single shot rifles". It's the first shot that counts most of the time; so why the special season? Logically, it no longer makes sense...Do away with the season or roll the clock back on acceptable technology for muzzleloaders such as Colorado has done.
I agree . When muzzloader season starts here in Tennessee we have 72 straight days of gun season . It is a wonder any deer survive and I watch other states going that way and it is about the money not managing the heard or hunter opportunity as they are fond of saying here in Tennessee.
Our muzzleloader season just ended yesterday, maybe now the deer can calm down and conserve energy....
Eliminate all special seasons and just have rifle or lessor weapon. Period.
Deez, Try it in Alabama, let us know how that works out for you.
I have to whack the hornets nest one more time. We have a bigger problem than when we can hunt and what we can hunt with. The three biggest factors in my mind are 1. Huntable habitat lost. Deer do not thrive on pavement. 2. Lack of hunter recruitment. There are far fewer hunters in my state than there were 30 years ago. 3. Decreased value put on nature and game animals. This is largely due to the first two. Most hunters want more game available. We grapple with the bag limit here but in truth fewer than 2% take all of the deer they have tags for. I hunt all seasons I have time for and enjoy each.
If you ban muzzleloader season for in lines then I believe compounds should be banned and everyone should have to hunt with a recurve/longbow or better yet self bow with stone points.. in my honest opinion this is dumb subject matter and shouldn't even be discussed.. as long as its deemed legal it should be allowed.. people who say it gives a unfair advantage are basically full of it, as everything we do to hunt gives us a unfair advantage, the point is to "KILL" the animal not harvest it like green beans and in doing so should be done with every advantage "legally" allowed.. What I would like to see banned is posts that divide hunters into so called traditional "better" or elite groups..I hunt with compounds,Recurve/longbow and muzzleloaders.. only thing I don't hunt with is a crossbow and that's because they are clumsy, heavy and hard to use in the woods... use what you want and instead of making posts that just cause unnecessary debate go practice with your chosen weapon.. Or better yet complain or post about the hunters who do not practice with their chosen weapon and are out in the woods gut shooting deer with their so called primitive weapons..
Good common sense post Indiana.To bad common sense isn't as common as it implies!
Common sense is so uncommon it's commonly misidentified.
Following the logic on here of some we should do away with all season and game departments and go back to hunting anytime we want with any wepone we want and kill what we want .
Following the logic on here of some we should do away with all season and game departments and go back to hunting anytime we want with any wepone we want and kill what we want .
You can say that again. Sorry ACB. This post is getting silly.
Wow ...it's the thread that never ends lol
Internet forums make it harder to get a tag and take its toll on trophy areas way more than technology in firearms or bows.
My state still allows archery equip to be used during muzzleloader season. If you don't like muzzleloaders you can still use your bow. I think most states are the same. Easy solution for you is to just use your bow and stay away from those awful weapons of degradation. I think we should join as hunters and not be divided when it doesn't have to be that way
In Colorado the smoke pole season is in the middle of archery season. So why would you buy a ML tag, and use a bow, for only one week of a 4 week bow season? But wait, there is more! Even if you wanted to, you could not, illegal to use a bow during ML season in Colorado. I am sure Colorado is not alone in this situation.
In Colorado the smoke pole season is in the middle of archery season. So why would you buy a ML tag, and use a bow, for only one week of a 4 week bow season? But wait, there is more! Even if you wanted to, you could not, illegal to use a bow during ML season in Colorado. I am sure Colorado is not alone in this situation.
" illegal to use a bow during ML season in Colorado" ???
My understanding is they run concurrently? Or else i have alot of friends who are poachers..... well, ok, beside the point, but I do believe you can bowhunt through muzzy season.... late aug through late sept....
Illegal to use a bow, if you have a muzzle loader tag. You must use a ML with a ML tag, you can not use a lesser weapon (bow or crossbow, etc.)
Bump. We need to keep this going. It is accomplishing so much!
It is very entertaining this time of year. I'm thinking it will at hit 300.
