45 degree hand angle?
General Topic
Just got a new bow, and when I was shooting it in the lady at the shop (a certified instructor) commented that my bowhand angle wasn't at the 45 degree "point" angle some archery instructors (including her) recommend. This month's Bowhunter mag column by Dwight Schuh also notes that such a luminary as Randy Ulmer is a 45 degree bowhand advocate. The gal I was talking to said that it helps line up the bow over the bones of your arm.
My question is how many of you pay attention to bow hand angle, and if you do, are you 45 degree advocates? A follow-up question is why aren't bow risers set up with the grip at this angle if this is generally preferred? The one drawback I am noticing is it tends to concentrate the pressure of the bow at draw towards saddle of your index finger and thumb, since the majority of your hand isn't in contact with the bow but rather off to the side. Comments please.
That's how my guru has instructed me to shoot. When I do it right, I find it completely eliminates the chance of me torqueing the bow.
I don't have one of these, but this is how I was taught to properly grip the bow. Which is actually NOT gripping. Most of the pressure is just to the right of my life line.
Same here Midwest... That is the proper way and his hand is at about 45 degrees.
Scar.
I pay a lot of attention to it and have my 7 year old do the same. It's hard to make a bow shoot good when it's being torqued by the shooter.
The 45 deg is to force the hand off the riser. On the one bow I remember that had a rotated grip, people still palmed it.
I've shot that way for as long as I can remember. Hand at a 45. Most of the grip/pressure is to the right of my lifeline and 2 fingers just barely touching the front of my grip. Taught my brother the same grip and his shooting improved dramatically.
It is not the angle top to bottom of the grip that this 45 degree angle is referring to but the angle of the plane of your hand (visulize top surface of your hand) intersecting the riser/grip..The purpose is to reduce torque on grip by reducing surface interface , with grip and rotate your forearm counter clockwise( when seen from the rear) so as to increase string clearance, with forearm. watch how your forearm moves downward and out of they way of the string, as you rotate bottom of hand outward to achieve 45 degrees...
I have the True Shot Coach that midwest mentions. Great training aid that I spent about $15 just to try. It forces proper hand placement and forces you to relax your bow hand as well. It feels foreign at first, but like most things, it doesn't take long before it becomes second-nature.
I've pretty much been shooting that way for years. One over, three under....
-Joe
It doesn't matter, just be consistent.
I couldn't agree more with Purdue. As much as people preach "proper" grip, stance, follow through, etc etc etc it is all individual to find what works for you. Look at all the best archers in the world, not one of them do the exact same thing. Matt Stutzman in Purdue's picture above (The Armless Archer) is a perfect example.
using the "finger doneness test" I like to shoot at about rare to medium rare.
I think more important than some hard rule about hand placement is finding the sweet spot, relax your hand and be consistent.
A good demonstration by Larry Wise...
Saying it doesn't matter just be consistent sounds great but you are not going to be consistent if you are choking out your bow. So....Yes...it does matter. If you have hands you need to not let your life line cross the grip. The same principle applies to Matt Stutzman's grip. He is holding his foot on the back of the grip and is not contacting the side of the grip(not really possible with a foot) which induces torque. The 45 degree thing is a rule of thumb and the angle of the knuckles could be greater or less depending on the shooter. Can a guy shoot accurately while gripping the bow like you are chopping wood? Yes. But with a proper grip you are way less likely to negatively influence the bow.
Also...you will be hard pressed to find a professional archer with a crappy grip.
As Bowfreak says, yes, it does matter. Correct hand placement reduces the chance of inducing hand torque. Hand torque WILL effect shot to shot consistency. Correct hand placement also puts the stress of holding the bow at full draw more in line with your bone structure. Incorrect hand placement puts more of that stress on muscles and ligaments. Not good for consistency.
I agree, you don't have to do it the "right" way every time, you just have to do it the same way every time. I find doing it the "right" way allows me to do it the same way.
Pat,
You are talking about 2 different things. Not being able to hold your mud on animals is just that. There are both great target archers and guys who simply bowhunt that can't hold their mud on animals. The reason why you can is because you have shot a ton of stuff with a bow. The thing that makes a person better at killing animals is killing animals. If you couple that ability to seal the deal on live game with the ability of a world class archer, it is almost an unfair advantage. There is never a situation where a bowhunter will be negatively impacted by becoming a better archer.
As far as becoming a stone cold killer....this is where eastern bowhunters have an advantage. Many eastern bowhunters will draw down and put their pin on a live animal target more times is one year than some western bowhunters do in 5.
If you practice with perfect form, you will shoot with perfect form at the moment of truth. Practice doesn't make perfect, Perfect Practice makes perfect.
It matters! When shooting targets with field points, you only have to be consistent. Put a fixed blade on the front of your arrow, and believe me, it matters. Hand torque does not show up with field points like it does with fixed blades out front.
You asked for it Pat, here it comes. I find it terribly irresponsible for you to advocate poor form and/or tuning shortcuts. That kind of thinking is a kin to not bothering with your safety harness, or checking to see if your BH's are sighted in with your field points.
Fix the problem, don't tell yourself you don't have one.
“If you practice with perfect form, you will shoot with perfect form at the moment of truth.”
Absolutely. The reason folks drill that perfect form into their subconscious is so they don’t have to think about it when a hunting shot presents itself. I can guarantee you I’ve never thought about my knuckles being 45 degrees to the grip when I shot an animal. And I can also guarantee you that’s exactly where my knuckles ended up. This is kind of Archery 101 stuff.
With regards to Matt Stutzman…there’s a reason why he doesn’t grip his bow in a conventional manner. If someone with no arms asks me how to grip his/her bow, I’ll be sure to not bother talking about how to position their nonexistent hand into the grip. ?
Jeeze for Once i agree w Pat... but Bowfreak s assessment is dead on!
You can preach about perfect practice all you want but unless you're practicing while out of breath on one knee, downhill with an adrenaline charge it's just preaching.
GaryB,
Do you take those shots without practicing them? To my knowledge nothing keeps one from practicing with their heart racing and shooting from uneven footing or from their knees.
My point is perfect practice at the local range doesn't fully prepare you for some real world shots. On an awkward balance shot you may find yourself with a death grip on your bow. Yes, I practice shooting from different positions but don't uphill/downhill as much as I probably should.
GaryB, nobody's suggesting a shot that's presented while hunting is going to be the same as when shooting on the practice range, wherever that may be. I don't know about you, but I practice taking awkward shots all the time when shooting outdoors. I shoot uphill, downhill, through trees/bushes, on my knees, on uneven ground, you name it. Shooting under hunting conditions while maintaining good form does not have to be mutually exclusive.
It's hard enough making a good shot while in an awkward position. Couple that awkward position with bad form and any problem is going to be magnified.
Nobody's preaching. If what you're doing works for you, great. Keep doing it. However as Bowfreak pointed out, having good form is never going to have a negative impact when closing the deal on an animal, but having bad form certainly can.
It's basic archery..... preparing consciously over and over for hours, days and years. For the unconscious shot that lasts a millisecond.
Muscle memory.... the heart may be racing, the quarry may be fleeing , the legs may be quivering, but , without thinking you make a perfect shot because you practiced perfectly .
It's in the Native American Handbook :-)
If you're hitting what you're aiming at ...... I'd say your form ain't half bad !!!!!
Amen Rev. Pat. I totally agree. When you got a split second shot, you don't have time to pull out the protractor.
Really great feedback, just what I was hoping for. Of course, the type of bow and the grip on it, your hand size and shape, etc. will impact how and where you grip the bow also. I haven't paid much attention to it, but there are probably lots of custom grip options to help get just the fit and feel you want. It would be fun to get a chunk of wood and whittle/sand your own - do Olympic archers all use custom grips? probably want to use a high-grade plywood so it doesn't crack and break your heart. We can all agree that repeatability is a key to consistency, and in that regard practice makes permanent. Whatever I work on and potentially end up with, now is the time to do it, so by end of summer it's an unconscious habit.
Do you guys who say "form doesn't matter" have to think about looking through your peep, putting your pin on target or activating your release during a high pressure situation? I will venture to guess that you don't. You also don't have to think to put your hand into the bow correctly. It is just part of your shot process. The grip is one of the single most important aspects of form. It is the main connection point between you and the bow.
If someone is happy with their shooting then there is absolutely no reason to change anything you do. If you are not then the sky is the limit as to what you can do to improve.
I'm like many of these other fellas. I get a big bull blowing snot at me and I forget routine and muscle memory. Shoot this one time, when I had a buck close, I even tried shooting with the wrong hand, tried nocking the arrow on the riser. ;) If you haven't shot enough that your "shot" isn't carried out without a thought other than which spot, then.... you need to shoot a few more hundred if not thousand shots.
I 100% agree with bowfreaks assessment!! I too am like Pat, I do not concentrate on perfect form, I shoot a lot of critters and quite a few beyond 40 yards. I am consistent on what I do and it is very repeatable but again not the classic form or grip. I just try and stay relaxed and follow through when I shoot at anything. It works for me, so I am not going to change. Scooby
When hand is positioned @ 45° ....
The Shoulder Bone is locked to the:
Elbow Bow"n" and the elbow bow"n" is locked to the :
Wrist Bow"n" and the wrist bow"n" is locked to the:
Hand Bow"n" and the hand bow"n" is locked to the Bow bow"n"
And that , my bow hunting friends , is what it's all about !
There are only two places where you interact with your bow: your grip and your release. To blow off half that equation is a bit foolish, but to each their own.
I'm kind of a 37.3 degree guy, but hey it works for me!
I'm confused by you guys that say "I try to be consistent", etc. Why would you not want to do it consistently the right way or best way or whatever? If you have good form and practice good form all the time you fall right into that same good form without even thinking about it when you have animal in front of you.
Pat,
Last year when you did that feature on tuning. You admitted in your interview that you have never been able to group field points with broadheads. Now, we all know why. You are torquing your bow.
When your tires are cupping due to poor wheel alignment, do you just keep buying new tires, or do you fix your alignment? ;)
"Perfect form" has nothing to do with consistency. Again, look at at picture of Reo Wilde and tell me that is "perfect form". It's not, but he is as consistent as anyone on this planet. You can have "perfect form" and still be launching arrows all over the place, I've seen several people do it. Find what works for you and do it consistently every shot till your muscle memory makes it become second nature. I agree, "perfect form" is helpful, but way way WAYYY too overrated when it comes to an individual sport like archery.
It could be over rated but what good reason is there not to try and better your form. Like improving it could be bad for your consistency.
""Perfect form" has nothing to do with consistency. Again, look at at picture of Reo Wilde and tell me that is "perfect form". It's not, but he is as consistent as anyone on this planet."
Cant' think of his name right now, but there's also a very successful pro that punches the hell out of his release. Do you honestly think punching the hell out of your release is a good idea for 99.9999% of the people on this planet? Hell, some of these guys could shoot standing on their head behind their back and still hit the "x". These guys are the exception. The rest of us are the rule. Just because Phillipe Petit walks between skyscrapers on a tightrope doesn't make it a good idea for the rest of us to try.
I have found that shooting my recurve has helped me be more 'form consistent' when switching back to my compound.
If there is something that let you know if your form is bad, a recurve will do that.
WY, Tim Gillingham.
I also tried to emulate Rod Carew's batting stance as a kid. It didn't yield 7 batting titles for me either.
"It's basic archery..... preparing consciously over and over for hours, days and years. For the unconscious shot that lasts a millisecond.
Muscle memory.... the heart may be racing, the quarry may be fleeing , the legs may be quivering, but , without thinking you make a perfect shot because you practiced perfectly . "
Very well put. The mind will not go where the body has not been. The importance of muscle memory cannot be overstated, IMO.
"If you practice with perfect form, you will shoot with perfect form at the moment of truth. Practice doesn't make perfect, Perfect Practice makes perfect. "
Amen. Some guys pursue constant improvement and some guys settle for good enough because it has always worked for them. To each their own, but let's be honest with ourselves: better is better.
