Two holes vs. One, Mechanicals vs Fixed
Equipment
I shoot NAP Killzones with a 2" cut, and different slick tricks. The last three animals I've harvested, two large Mule Deer and an Elk, have been shot with the Killzone. These animals were not standing perfectly broadside, and due to different issues, none of these shots resulted in two holes. I feel that the lack of two holes resulted in less of a blood trail. If I had been in thick cover, I question whether all of these animals would have been recovered. I feel having two holes to let the blood out is optimal. This year I'm back to fixed, trying the Vipertrick. By the way I shot these critters with a 475gr arrow out of a 70# compound with a 27" DL. I think these arrow fly 260-270fps.
Of you guys who shoot 2" cut mechanicals , with angled shots on large game( ie 250# plus), how often do you get two holes? How many of you guys feel two holes are more important that the width of the cut?
The forum has been a bit slow so I guess we needed another one of these threads.
It is a simple problem to correct. (1) You can wait for a perfect shot and get a pass through, or...(2) You can shoot them a second time. In either case, either broadhead will werk. As for me, I shoot field points at all types of big game.
If only the perfect shot were a matter of patience.
How are those field points working for you John?
I use the grim reaper 1 3/8" broadheads ive had all pass thrus and the arrow had been stuck into the ground.
I always shoot fixed blades. And on elk I rarely ever get a pass thru or 2 holes. I have a short draw length. The one hole doesn't bother me because just about every animal I hit goes down within sight. No tracking needed. 2 holes is a bonus.
I'm not really focused on the endless debate on mechanical vs fixed. I think the issue of penetration, and two holes vs one is underrated. A very experienced bowhunter once told me that "it's not the width of the cut, as much as it's the length of the cut that's important.
All of the shots I indicated were not hard angle shots, and they all just slightly poked out the off side. With a 30" draw length, or an 80# bow, I may have gotten two holes on all those animals. However, most people don't have that much momentum out of their bows.
David, what's your set-up? What animals?
I shoot a wimpy longbow (under 40# KE) and always expect two holes on a broadside shot. A frontal shot can mean a lot of distance to penetrate and quartering away can mean hitting the scapula or humerus on the far leg above the arm pit. No exit is more likely on those. I shoot fixed heads with a good angle of attack.
I've been on more than a few blood trails where a couple drops from the exit hole were important clues. I've also trailed stuff hit with a big mechanical and poor penetration but great blood trails.
More than one way to get things done. The specifics of the shot matter, but I would be looking for a solution as well if you aren't passing through deer with a 70# compound.
I like 2 holes. You have a better chance of an entry and exit hole with a sharp cut on contact broad head and a heavy arrow.
Still trying to mess with the mech guys are we?
Well i'm always up for that-
Yeah, I like 2 holes...but what i really like is an animal that doesn't even know he has been shot- many advantages to that. Having them run off like their tail is on fire can be a problem sometimes.
The number of holes does not matter. What matters is the very accurate scientific study done on recovery rate of fixed blade vs. mechanical. If you want to recover your animal, you have a better chance of doing so with a mechanical. LOL
If you aren't getting pass throughs, you aren't using the proper set up or you are not making a good shot. Has nothing to do with Mechanical vs fixed.
On elk, I love to have them go down in sight. Wish it would happen every time.
In the case that doesn't happen...an exit wound is a nice bonus !
Best of Luck, Jeff
Given the choice, I'll take two holes every time. That said, I'm certainly not going to pass up a quartering away or close-up frontal waiting for that perfect broadside shot. Depending on angle, and what you hit on the offside, you may or may not get two holes. Has absolutely nothing to do with proper set up or not making a good shot.
Disagree with WYelkhunter. I have seen many broadside shot deer het 4" behind the shoulder mid-way up and plenty of mechanicals not go through. I have seen the same shot with fixed heads from the same type of bows and they go through. I agree shoot what ya want and what works for you. I also agree about recovery, an arrow slapping against the animal as it goes to run or is running does not help in recovery. I get pass throughs on most deer I shoot, even some very big bodied bucks. I am a fairly big guy but i have a short draw(27.5"s) and I shoot 60-67#s and arrows that are 7 to 8gpp. Just never been a fan of mechanicals. Scooby
Here is my experience from last year's elk hunt. I shot a 4x5 on a hard angling shot and still got a complete pass through with my 1.25" cut diameter NAP shockwave mechanicals. Oh, and he didn't run off like his tail was on fire. He ran about 10 steps, looked around, walked slowly in a straight line for about 20 yards and fell down, never to get back up again. All out of a bow that I didn't even tune ;) xoxo
I have killed one or two critters over the years and I have never left an arrow in a deer with my set up and a 2" cut, 2 blade Rage, and I have shot multiple through scapula's. Never broke or lost a blade either, but I have mangled them badly. The steel they are using must be a very good bend not break equation.
You have to have confidence in your set up. If you don't then find something you will have. This thread alone proves 2 holes can be accomplished with a mechanical. I believe it's a fair assessment to say your chances are greater with a fixed head.
Bottom line if you don't have the confidence then make a change. It sounds like you have enough arrow so it's a matter of what's on the end of it.
The Elk I made reference to was a poor shot. the tracking job would have been easier with two holes.
On the other hand, the two Mule Deer were a moderate quartering away, and a slight quartering to. Both deer were down in 10 seconds within plain sight. However, the lack of good blood trails was a concern, as not all hunts are in open country.
I think two holes are better than one:-)
I have a large majority of my shots on deer with mech's being pass through's. 2 were strongly quartering (away) and stuck in the ground. Just a few, maybe 2-3 were not pass through shots. I shoot 90~ ft/lb of KE though... way more than enough for deer sized critters.
With fixed blades most of my shots have been pass through's as well. I dont think I have really seen a difference in that regard...
All but one Spitfire elk kill was a passthru, very few fixed heads were. The last fixed head pass thru didn't leave a drop of blood other than what was on the arrow. I don't get too twisted up about it, center of the lungs is about 12" deep.
If a 2" cut MBH won't go all the way through, a 1.75" might. There are those that will tell you that you need a 675 gr. 30%+ FOC arrow tipped with a 2 blade single bevel blah blah blah to do that
I am of the opinion that 3/4 of the guys on this site would argue to the death that grey is not an actual color - demanding that be viewed as either a dark shade of white or a lightish black.
I shoot for a minimum of 5 holes. 1 entrance and 2 in each lung.
That usually does the job
^^^ yep, that one. A complete pass through is a bonus.
Sometimes 7 holes work out too when the heart is involved.
2 holes over 1 no matter what
If you shoot an animal quartered away and hit the far side scapula, chances are you went through stuff that's going to result in a quick recovery. They always have for me and when I do my autopsy, the arrow goes through some big veins and arteries and bleeds them really good. IMO, more important than the size of the cut or the holes is the arrow passing the region of the heart, specifically the top of it or right over it. Their blood pressures crash and they go down quick if you hit that area.
OK. Elkman, what's yr DL? What's yr setup?
Has anyone that's commented on these mech v fixed threads actually had their opinion changed by something another poster has said on here?
As I stated early on in one of the other useless m v f threads. I shoot heavy arrows out of a 70 lbs old school Martin bow. 2 inch 2 blade rage. Sometimes I get a passthrue, sometimes I don't. But I always get that big ass gash upon entry. I'm very happy with the results I've had and wether it's been one hole or two, there has always been copious amounts of blood. Enough that any knucklehead could follow. I'm confident in my setup, confident in my rage heads, and confident that when I let an arrow fly, that animal is not going far.
Will take two holes every time.
These are the kind of entry holes that don't require an exit hole.
Dooner - Hmmm, have to think for a minute. Some were older Rockets, 1.5" 3bld over the tops, one with an all steel wasp head I forget the name of, some original rage 2bld's (2"), and some (the most recent 8 or 9) with a rage extreme 2bld (2.3"). Whoa, not totally true, just remembered that one of the more recent deer was with a Rage Hypo 2". Deer died in sight, but that one was one of the non pass through's. Steep angle, entered high on the right side broad side, and the head got stuck in the heavy rib/cartiladge/sternum junction area. So, it went most of the way through the deer horizontally, but didnt make it through the sternum area. That's happened to me with ST's and a NAP nitron to... So it didnt phase me. I did however go back to the extremes because I like the larger cutting surface. Just my thing.
I've been itchy to try using Grim Reaper Whitetail Special 3 blades and may try those this year. Nothing to do with being unhappy with the Rage 2.3"ers... I'm very happy with them. Just curious and like the looks of the GRWS.
"I am of the opinion that 3/4 of the guys on this site would argue to the death that grey is not an actual color - demanding that be viewed as either a dark shade of white or a lightish black."
Haha! Matt, that's funny as heck and equally true!
I'll always take two holes over one. If I'm feeling really frisky I might even go for the third!
I like the grey glass on my Browning Wasp.
Dooner: I shoot a true 28 inch draw length with between 68 and 71 pounds depending on which bow I choose for that hunt. I have a Nitrum 34, a Defiant 34, Alphamax 35, a Matrix and a few other Hoyt's sprinkled in. My arrow is a Easton ACC 349 (390 spine) with a 50 grain brass HP insert up front, cut to 27-12", with Flex Fletch SK 300s, topped of with different variation of a Rage 2 blade. Anywhere from 2-1/2" cut diameter down to 1-1/2" cut for Elk and larger. (Total arrow weight 439 grains with around 18% FOC)
Dave, I've seen you poke holes in a few animals, just go back to the Broad heads that give you pass throughs. Don't over think it. Of course you could screw a rage on your arrow and never have to draw your bow again. Just go out and pick up the animal after he tips over from fear.
I like the Vipertrick.
I like the Vipertrick.
Thanks Brian. I'm not worried about it. Just thought the two holes vs one was an interesting point that is not talked about much in the mechanicals debate:-)
Interestingly, I have another 2 Mule Deer and 1 Elk that were all shot with Slick Tricks. All were pass-throughs, with adequate blood trails. I liked the concept of a 2+ inch hole with buckets of blood on the ground. But, I'm 3 for 3 on not getting two holes with my NAP killzones. I think I'm going back to fixed on game over 250 lbs.
Dave, Somehow I think that will leave enough blood on the ground
Amount of blood on the ground doesn't always come from a big hole in the animal. My two best blood trails came from fixed. I have had marginal blood trails with fixed as well as mechanical.
The picture is from a buck in 2014. At the 10 yard mark he was blowing blood out his mouth and nose. 25 yards later he was down.
scooby-doo " I have seen many broadside shot deer het 4" behind the shoulder mid-way up and plenty of mechanicals not go through" The proper set up was not used if the arrow did not pass through on a "perfect hit".....
2 holes will always be better than one for blood trails. But if the animal is down in sight then it doesn't really mater.
Dooner you're not going to get passthrough's on a lot of shots with mechanicals - that's not what they're designed for.
They allow better flight characteristics - they cut bigger holes. They're not exceptionally durable (most of 'em) and because of that large cut, they simply don't penetrate as well.
I'll defer back to a Rage youtube promo video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxP6JrRv6Ks&t=60s
High energy compounds, piss poor penetrations. Over and over, real world shots and hits.
I shoot to kill animals. In my ideal world, I'm shooting 550-600 gr total weight from a 65# compound and a 3 blade Slick Trick. I'm maximizing my chances for complete passthrough, my head will not fail to open and it very very very likely will not bend or break. I want a passthrough - I want a blood trail I can easily follow.
You're right in your observations on mechanicals - pro-mech zealots will not admit to it. They also won't admit to all the deer lot to poor penetration, mech head failures and such IMO.
Wy, IF is a big friggin word.
"2 holes will always be better than one for blood trails."
I've seen exceptions.
Zero blood other than on my arrow and what was under this Bull when I moved him.
2 holes is always the best choice because it means (A) maximum penetration and (B) entry/exit holes
I can see absolutely no way a single hole would be preferable over two and I don't see how anyone would want less penetration.
Stealthy cat, where are you finding 3 blade Slick Tricks?
It really doesn't matter what you PREFER. If you TRY for only an entry hole with no exit, you risk insufficient penetration because you never know what you will hit, and therefore can't judge and plan for just enough penetration. You can never have too much for EVERY situation.
"I've seen exceptions"
Yes I should have said almost always. NOTHING is absolute.
So now the usual suspects are suggesting people who prefer MBH's actually try not to get full penetration. We've achieved new depths of intellectual dishonesty to try to be right on the internet.
Maybe we should talk about those awesome Satellite broadheads. Being fixed they couldn't fail.
Wholly smokes WapitiBob :) ahhh those are good ones. I tie a lot of flies. On flies with spun deer hair, I often use double sided razors to shape the heads... Double sided razors are more durable than those old Satellites. :)
I've had mostly two hole shots with Mechs. I want two of the biggest holes I can get, so I shoot a ton of energy and it works for me.
"So now the usual suspects are suggesting people who prefer MBH's actually try not to get full penetration."
Did you watch the video and when you do - what can you conclude?
I shoot a 4 blade Slick Trick ... ideally I'd shoot 3 blade. I shoot lighter than 600 grains right now, I'd like to move up in weight. I shoot 62# and would like to move to 65# before season starts
Luckily I actually have actual experience - lots of it - shooting animals with MBH's. I don't have to watch a Rage video on the internet to know you are full of $#!+.
I prefer two holes, that's why I use Steelheads.
"I don't have to watch a Rage video on the internet to know you are full of $#!+."
you can't explain the piss poor penetration over and over in the video why? how can your experience be so vastly different than theirs? sure, maybe they're using 30 pound bows ... I doubt it, or maybe they're using 230 gr total weight, I doubt that too. Maybe they're just over and over terribly unlucky?
Two holes are preferable, No doubt why Dave started this thread. He's well aware of the advantages of two holes. Regarding any other comments...1st hand experience...the more the better, carries much more weight than no first hand or limited experience or watching videos.
A good friend just killed a big grizzly on a DIY hunt. Spitfire broadhead and the bear went twenty yards.
Came you imagine how much quicker he would have died if all the floppy weak blades would have opened!! They seldom do, according to a few.
Yes Brian, that is why I started this thread.
Those Alberta Mule Deer and the Elk that I shot with the Killzones were big bodied animals. All bigger than most Black Tail or White Tale deer. In all three cases the tip of the broadhead was just barely sticking out on the off side, but not enough to help with the blood trail.
As far as my setup goes, I think it is tuned better than most. All my bows are put on a draw board for timing, twin yoke paper-tuned, and walk-back tuned. I have no trouble getting my slicktricks, killzones, and fieldpoints to fly together. I also think that a 475gr arrow out of a 70# compound has more momentum than many setups. If I had a 30" DL, or shot 80#, I would have had two holes, but most don't shoot that kind of horsepower.
As far as whether they were "good shots" goes, both Mule Deer were down in ~10 seconds, with their plural cavity filled with blood. On the other hand, the Elk stepped just as I shot and it landed to far back. On even moderately angled shots, your arrow may hit an off side leg or a rumen filled with food. Shit happens to all of us.
My whole point was to be mindful of the value of two holes, and that with larger game, it may make sense to use a head with better penetration than a 2" expandable.
Dooner, IMO 475 grains with a 27 inch draw is still too light for a 2 inch two blade on elk sized critters. I also use Killzone 125 gn COC with the crossbow 0.039 thick blades, high FOC on 300 FM'sJ. I am at 587 total weight with a 28 inch draw. I get two holes on Elk.
Yep, pretty much along the lines of what I was saying, but I am a little surprised that a 28" DL would be much different with the shots I made. It might, but it still would be a little questionable. Glad you see the value of two holes:-)
"I get two holes on Elk." On angled shots?? On a perfect broadside shot, I bet I would have got two holes also.
"A good friend just killed a big grizzly on a DIY hunt. Spitfire broadhead and the bear went twenty yards."
That settles it! One good outcome is definitive!
Zeus, that is just one of many many animals of a wide variety over a long time. Same results.
And Ohio, by the way you are taking offence, you are including yourself in the "few". I didn't name you.
But there are a few that definitely have and do say just that.
No offense taken, but I hate watching people feed themselves There's plenty comments to ride that's for sure. I've seen threads go completely sideways for no reason over comments not made. Not that these redundant threads need anymore coaxing.
You all should really stop feeding these trolls.
"Came you imagine how much quicker he would have died if all the floppy weak blades would have opened!! They seldom do, according to a few."
nobody has said that you are grandly slipping in a lie to try and support your view - its petty and everyone sees it
if you need a recap or exactly what people know mechanicals to be, you can reread the hundreds of pages
nobody has yet to watch the video I posted and respond with why those hits sucked at penetration .... why ? why is that so difficult?
stealthycat, I would like to know that also. Hunters in a tree stand, 10 yard shot, and shot goes into the kill zone. Why with a modern compound bow, why does that arrow, even an ultra light arrow, not blow through the deer? Why does the deer run away with 2/3 of the arrow sticking out? Maybe if they were shooting a sharp COC FB they would not have to back out till morning, (after smoking that joker). My bet is it has to do with that mechancal BH that the camera man zooms in on multiple times during the show.
I didn't watch the video, I figure I don't need see a video to realize it's harder get an axe to penetrate a deer than a normal broadhead.
I wonder if some of those deer in this video are Alabama deer? :)
"I always shoot fixed blades. And on elk I rarely ever get a pass thru or 2 holes. I have a short draw length. The one hole doesn't bother me because just about every animal I hit goes down within sight. No tracking needed. 2 holes is a bonus. "
Same here. With my 27" draw length and pulling 65 lbs I can count on the arrow sinking in up to the fletching but not passing through, regardless of broadhead type.
What distance are you guys shooting these elk?
Booner, sorry I didn't get back to your question sooner. I got a pass through with my cow last year quartering away more than I thought. Entered tight behind the front leg and exited through guts behind the ribs. It was a 40 yard shot on the ground. Found the arrow about 10 yards behind the shot. BH was toast, hit a rock.
Qoute Stealthycat: "nobody has said that you are grandly slipping in a lie to try and support your view - its petty and everyone sees it".
(sigh) Stealthy, you have many times proclaimed that mechanicals have "...weak, flimsy blades that often bend or break IF!!! they open...". If I cared as much as you do about what others shoot, I could go back and find your quotes. But I don't care....at all.
Your predictable and repetitious anti- mech mantras are like a dripping tap. An annoying background noise. Like the buzzing of a leaky exhaust on an anemic four cylinder car on a long, long uphill grade. Just vexing, but harmless.
So out of respect for the OP and others who may be serious about the thread, I'm out. I won't reply or rebut, the mic is yours.
You keep on ranting about mechs and I'll just keep on killing stuff with them. Then we're both happy and still friends, right?
Oh, and by "everybody" I assume you mean all three or four of you. lol.
"you can't explain the piss poor penetration over and over in the video why? how can your experience be so vastly different than theirs? sure, maybe they're using 30 pound bows ... I doubt it, or maybe they're using 230 gr total weight, I doubt that too. Maybe they're just over and over terribly unlucky? "
If they are Rage sponsored guys who are filming their hunts like the Drurys, it is likely because of low poundage. One of those guys shoots something like 40# - that is documented. Apparently the one thing you don't know.
It would take a moron to blame poor penetration of out a 40# bow on the BH.
But I have a feeling you still will...
And not all MBH's are created equal in terms of penetration potential based on deployment, cutting diameter, number of blades, and blade angle. I know you know that, even if you conveniently forget that when debating the subject on the internet.
^^^ See! No bent blades and full deployment and two holes! Although the entry and exit don't make much sense. LOL.
Peco,
Is that your arm? I love that Bible verse!
I don't really care one way or another what others shoot, whatever makes you happy! I went from fixed to Rage and back to fixed. The reason why is that in my experience, I was not getting the penetration that I would get with a fixed head while using a Rage. I have broken both front shoulders on deer and still had complete penetration, all the way through and stuck in the ground using fixed heads, not so with Rage heads. I do however shoot a 29.5 inch arrow with a weight around 520 grains out of a 65-70lb bow. I have a ton of momentum and KE. also having the head razor sharp is a must!
Shoot what works for you! who cares what anyone else thinks.
Scar. ohh, I have also shoot nearly all the way through a deer length wise with only the fletching hanging up on the rear end. This is a legitimate question... Has anyone done this with a Rage or other mechanical? Just curious.
Thanks.
"Why with a modern compound bow, why does that arrow, even an ultra light arrow, not blow through the deer?"
it has to do with the big cut, it has to do with the energy used to deploy the blades ... those two factors above all else .... and nobody can argue that 8" of penetration on a deer is successful in today's world of high energy compound bows.
"Stealthy, you have many times proclaimed that mechanicals have "...weak, flimsy blades that often bend or break IF!!! they open..."."
I have said that, and it is true. I've also said multiple time and you can look this up, that on perfect shots a mech works, and field points will work too. Its that not perfect shots that make a huge difference. That's different than saying what you said we all said.
View the video and comment Ambush - I'd love to hear your thoughts on those suck penetration hits.
"You keep on ranting about mechs and I'll just keep on killing stuff with them. Then we're both happy and still friends, right?"
I used a Hypodermic + this past December on a doe - can I join your club?
Not all mech's are created equal absolutely and if there is one ever created that is full proof, doesn't use more energy in deployment, stronger than a Slick Trick ... I'm game to try it sure. I like technology, I use it because its legal .... but there is no adavantageous qualities to a mech that offsets the negatives.
I don't know that it takes much [work] to deploy blades.
Not my arm. I like the King James version of that verse.
HDE - there is something that causes mech, especially Rage type heads, to suck at penetration. Big wide cut, energy used deploying the blades ... maybe as they deploy it causes the entire arrow to lose its momentum on impact? I dunno .... but the proof is in the video's
and not all shots leave 20" or arrow sticking out, there are shots with mech's that pass through .... but way, way WAY too many that suck suck suck at penetration
Without retainment, the blades of most mechanicals flop around like a rag doll. I have a hard time buying that it takes that much to break a small elastic band.
Wide cut diameters and low draw weight/draw length combos probably have more to do with it.
" low draw weight/draw length combos probably have more to do with it."
except recurves/longbows are lower weight/power and you don't see the penetration issues quite the same. very light arrows contribute ... but then with fixed heads like Primos uses they don't have video after video of animals running off with 22" of shaft hanging out
I will say, mech's "bounce back" .... when they reach full penetration, the blades will reverse fold and the arrow will back out .... that's not the reason for the poor penetration but it does enhance the way it's shown on tv no doubt
"Not all mechanicals are created equal"- Amen to that. I think Steelheads are known to be one of the better penetrating mechanicals. I shot a couple of Caribou with them and they zipped right through. However I thought their small entrance holes were less than optimal.
On the other hand the killzones do burn some energy on deployment. The reason I went to them years ago is because they don't come open in the quiver.
There's always trade-offs. No one tool is best for all jobs.
"There's always trade-offs. No one tool is best for all jobs."
Sure there is...................... ;)
but you don't use a hammer to remove a screw ... there are far worse tools to do a job and far better ones too :)
Bad penetration IMO, is from a wide flat cutting angle and trying to push a 2" head through hair/hide/ribs/bone, etc on both sides of the animal. Combine that with a light arrow and low draw weight and you have no pass through. I think it is this far more than energy lost to open.
"What arrow weight are you guys shooting? RidgeGhost and who ever you quoted. And what kind of BH? If I can get a pass thru at 50yds with near identical parameters, you should easily pass thru at shorter ranges... in the ribs of course."
Ohio Hunter, my arrow is 420 gr, and the broadhead is a VPA. Tuned bow shooting bullet holes through paper and speed has been between 265-273fps. Not a huge sample size, but four elk and no pass-throughs on shots from 20 to 40 yards
Recurves and Longbows trend toward heavier arrows to compensate.
Broad side shots? Goofy angles and hitting bone? I'm shooting close to your exact set up and 2 elk shot with exodus went through like butter. One 50yds, arrow found stuck in tree and another at 30yds that was through him so fast I didn't know where or if I hit him. Third was a ramcat at 30yds with a lighter arrow 395ish.. I literally heard both the entrance and exit hit but still clean through. Maybe I'm lucky and avoided ribs while you're the exact opposite... how sharp are you getting those VPAs?
All were broadside shots. I have the VPA's pretty sharp. You now have me wondering if I hit a rib on each shot.
JTV,
That's Great... Really. I didn't say they don't work for you, I said they (mb's) DON'T WORK FOR ME. So what's your point? other than your arrow bow combo work for you! Like I said, I don't care if you shoot MB's, I choose not to.
Scar.
"Recurves and Longbows trend toward heavier arrows to compensate."
yes they do - but to be real, most recurves/longbows are probably what, 48-55# range? most compounds are 65-70# range
big huge difference on energy .... I have a new Xpedition Xplorer and at 63# it fires a 405 gr total weight arrow 295 fps
there is no explanation for a modern compound even with light arrows to not get at least 20+ inches of penetration on those hits in that video
the game changer is those mechancials ... those Rage heads might not have opened right, blades might have broken ... something happen kill after kill on that video that results in suck penetration
I agree about recurve/longbow draw weight vs. the mechanical advantage of a modern compound. So what happens when a modern compound set at 50# and 26" draw length shoots a 350 gr arrow tipped with a wide diameter cutting surface?
Wonder if that has anything to do with the taboo of almost all the arrow sticking out...?
My wife shoots her compound set at 39#'s and has a 26" draw length. She shoots Easton Flatline arrows (not a heavy arrow) with with 100gr sharp Montec and will blow through a mule deer at 20 yards like she was paper tuning. I bet with a MBH the results would be different, even with a low K.E. Rage.. Here's another question. The pro's shoot 70# compounds, have lonnng arms, and I have seen them with Easton FMJ, heavy arrow, and a Rage, shoot from a treestand at a buck 10 yards away. Good hit, but lots of arrow sticking out as deer runs away. So they back out till morning, then find the arrow, completely covered in blood, how does that happen?
One would think a company like Rage would make sure their promoters shoot adequate energy to showcase their product. The half arrow next day recovery is bad publicity for the discerning archer IMO. This stuff called physics that gets brought up from time to time here is not a secret we've managed to keep to ourselves.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ohiohunter - I'm led to believe those were the best shots Rage could come up with :(
"So what happens when a modern compound set at 50# and 26" draw length shoots a 350 gr arrow tipped with a wide diameter cutting surface?"
i'd guess penetration issues on a lot of shots - but not all shots are equal and so some will have good penetration too. Bad hits and that setup leads to lost animals a lot I'd guess.
stealthycat, I don't think a fixed head on that setup is going to help much with a bone hit. Just saying.
When you hit them with the proverbial ax, you're bound to hit some ribs at minimum.
JTV,
10-4 good luck this year! I am more curious about the frontal shot and penetration with a MB. as I haven't done it, I was wondering if anyone had.
Scar.
I never understood, the arrow,most of it, hanging out, yet the blood is coming out and the deer drops..... Just saw this on the crush on tv, watching lee shoot a buck. Now he is no small guy, so I can not imagine, he is shooting, a light set up........ can someone explain that? must have hit the heart direct, but man, he penetration is almost nil.....
yet I bait bear for guys, who consistently blow big holes, all pass thrus, with their mbhs's so I really have no answer..........
There isn't exactly a wall of bone on the opposite side, especially shooting from a tree. The biggest bone that poses a threat on the opposing side is the humerous and that ain't all that big on a deer.
Have you ever sliced a finger with a broadhead? Not penetrating through but slicing the surface? Bleeds a lot huh?
a 2" or 2 1/2' gash in the side of an animal is going to pour blood - 1" in or 5" in
"stealthycat, I don't think a fixed head on that setup is going to help much with a bone hit. Just saying."
better chance than with a mechanical though
I'm telling you, these shows using mech's lose a lot of animals, they have to with such poor penetration on GOOD shots. Imagine the not so good hit that happens?
Have you ever sliced a finger with a broadhead? Not penetrating through but slicing the surface? Bleeds a lot huh?
a 2" or 2 1/2' gash in the side of an animal is going to pour blood - 1" in or 5" in
"stealthycat, I don't think a fixed head on that setup is going to help much with a bone hit. Just saying."
better chance than with a mechanical though
I'm telling you, these shows using mech's lose a lot of animals, they have to with such poor penetration on GOOD shots. Imagine the not so good hit that happens?
Have you ever sliced a finger with a broadhead? Not penetrating through but slicing the surface? Bleeds a lot huh?
a 2" or 2 1/2' gash in the side of an animal is going to pour blood - 1" in or 5" in
"stealthycat, I don't think a fixed head on that setup is going to help much with a bone hit. Just saying."
better chance than with a mechanical though
I'm telling you, these shows using mech's lose a lot of animals, they have to with such poor penetration on GOOD shots. Imagine the not so good hit that happens?
Besides your bounce off theory doesn't exactly compliment the equipment you're desperately defending.
JTV Rages are the #1 broadhead - people swear by them but the same people will not watch that video and explain the poor penetration
crazy huh ?
JTv, you've mistaken me for someone who gives two F's about what you shoot. BTW aren't steelheads DISCONTINUED... justsayin.
I still don't get the appeal of shooting a mbh with 1 1/8" cut. That defeats the very purpose of shooting a mech.
I see one use for that bh, but I can't shoot that far.
Steelheads are still made. Its the steelhead XL's that are no longer made I believe
I bought some Steelheads precisely for the smaller cut diameter. That gives the best penetration, a small cut diameter.
Of course, all I have is anecdotal evidence...
ohio, having a big head is not the only advantage of a mech. I can't believe 600 posts on the subject and we're still going on this. For the discerning, tuned archer that shoots mech heads, form forgiveness is prob the biggest advantage. Just like a mech head is GUARANTEED to have moving parts, a fixed head is GUARANTEED to move more air thus be subject to planing etc which is exacerbated with bad form. It's part of the trade-off that lands people on one side or other of the proverbial fence.
"I still don't get the appeal of shooting a mbh with 1 1/8" cut. That defeats the very purpose of shooting a mech."
see posts above
Thanks wy, I would've completely missed those had you not helped. Reminds me of the kid at the zoo pointing out the elephant as if he's the only one who can see it.
I didn't realize people constantly and consistently miss and wounded game with fbh vs Mbh. I can honestly say I've never gone afield with a bh that did not group with my fp. How has anyone humanely harvested anything before we were blessed with such technology?
The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages imo.
You've made that abundantly clear on about 30 of these threads, with hundreds of duplicate posts... (Do you have a job?)
"I still don't get the appeal of shooting a mbh with 1 1/8" cut. That defeats the very purpose of shooting a mech."
For many a mech is more forgiving of less than perfect shots. Also more accurate
Mech will preform better in the wind. Be less affected by wind.
A mech will also be quieter n flight. A reason I would use them on coues deer.
That Rage promo video is funny showing a bunch of animals running off with the arrow sticking out bouncing around.
It has to be poor tuning, low poundage bow and /or very light arrow.
One would think that a TV Pro would know enough to bump up his arrow weight and shoot a little more bow # to have much better results. A decent setup should get a pass thru with a slip cam BH on deer size critters.
You want a big blood trail? One of those big mech heads with a low exit will give it to you.
I havent even come close to reading all the posts above I'm just chiming in with my opinion which is not based on fixed or mechanical its my experience with 2 blade vs 3 & 4 blades..
Me personally Im estimating 2/3rds of my harvests have been with stickbows and 1/3rd is wheels.. what I seem to notice is when I make a hit with a 2 blade head the animal seems to be relaxed more and usually goes down close by,, not much blood on ground but usually I see where it bedded down which is how a 2 blade deer seems to go down it kind of beds down.
deer I have taken with multi blade seem to explode right out of there on impact and maybe 80% of the time they keep running until they stop and fall or just fall and crash,,, there is more blood but because of the reaction i get impact spatter then hardly any blood until about 30yds.
as far as mechanical vs fixed,, my compounds are old and not super fast, I shoot feathers with fixed heads usually thunder heads, stingers, slick tricks, and not concerned with speed I'm more concerned with accuracy and bow noise. my stickbows range in weight from 48# to 56# I like very heavy arrows and big fletching and I use a variety of heads maybe 40 different styles depending on my mood.
thing is with me if I'm in a tree I really don't want to be above 12' if I get too high it messes with my head,, with compound I love hunting from the ground with that let off I can draw back and hold for 5 minutes if I need to,,, stickbow from the ground its another story but make sure your clothes are soundless when you move,, loud clothing blows more shots in the stickbow world than anything else.
Hey : I may have missed it but, I have shot fixed, Mechanical and the biggest thing that I took out of all was, if you shoot Mechanical I will only shoot rear deploying blades. I shot Mechanical Rockets and found the change direction on impact if you hit the animal at an angle. With RAGE I have had great luck on recovery, penetration, great blood trail with very large wound cavities. Ratcoon!
"It has to be poor tuning, low poundage bow and /or very light arrow."
So its more believable that all those bows were low poundage etc?
The only consistency was they were using Rage head - it wasn't funny at all, it was pathetic
Someone is in desperate need of a math class.
I guess I'm a progressive, I shoot both types of BH's. I have shot lots of Whitetails with a Thunderhead 125. Recently I have taken 1-Elk, 3 deer, and 5 hogs with (if there are small children in the room tell them to leave) Swhacker 125 gr. with all pass throughs. I have also killed deer with G5 and Muzzy. My Elk setup this year again will have Swhackers on them. If I draw a tag and go to a state that requires fixed I will try Slick trick or Iron Will's, whatever shoots the best for me. And really I don't care what anybody else shoots because a person needs to believe in what *they* use.
Bow 2015 Elite Synergy @ 70 28.5 DL 9.5 GPI 125gr. BH 272 FPS
Here's a shwacker I found in a pile of bones. Should've taken the arrow to weigh it. If yo don't get an exit you could be in for a long night.
That had to suck for somebody! I have a friend who is a processor, he has a very cool collection of bones with all sorts of BH's in them.
No entry hole with the Shwacker style heads is an ABSOLUTE no go for me. No way for me to guarantee the second hole, so I'm sure as hell taking no chances with the size of the first. JMHO
One of the coolest things I've seen come from a deer was a broken tine stuck in its brisket.
The horns associated with that pile of bones would haunt every elk hunter.
1" entry with Swhacker...
"No way for me to guarantee the second hole"
no way to guarantee the mech head will open or that your arrow hits in the right spot etc etc ....... but trying to achieve those makes for a better chance at killing doesn't it?
Ermine - forgot about that advantage as well. I hate the hissing noise associated with vented heads. I also hate the non-forgiveness of non-vented heads lol. I have had big deer that ducked arrows purely because of arrow noise, and that stings.
"If that..."
So, explain to me, then, why there was a 1" gash (at least) on entry and a 2" on exit when I've used them?
I promise you, there will always be a 1" on entry with the single bevel wing blades...
Actually it's all about the angle the animal is to you whether it's 1" or not. But it will be 1". My elk was slightly quartering so it was about an 1 3/4" cut. And it's was double lung so he was blowing massive amounts of blood out of both sides. Quickest bow kill on an elk that I (me) have had. The deer and hogs (and elk) were the same way because I shot them from a stand. I know this... the hard shoulder plate on an Russian boar is no match for a Swhacker, too many dead ones that prove otherwise. But I have killed them just as dead with a Muzzy. Where is the thread about whats best 10mm or 45acp?
Quackers suck. We all know it. Just admit it and move on... ;-)
Sweet child...bless your heart.
Looks like a nice bear:-) They are not hard to penetrate in my experience. Did you get one or two holes?
It was a pass thru. I will post up the vids in the bear forum when I get back home. There is a field pic of him in the "Bear Harvest" thread in the bear forum. He leaked a good blood trail as he ran maybe 45-50 yards.
