Buck never gets bigger
Contributors to this thread:Whitetail Deer
From: ryanrc
10-Dec-17
Show the pics.
From: elk yinzer
10-Dec-17
Shoot him! At least you have a history with him. I mostly follow the age over inches mantra, which is a tenet of QDMA, at least they say that anyway. Hunting vast areas, there is no way practicable, nor do I want to know all the bucks. The ones that top out with just decent racks sure do make it tough to guess how old they are when they colide with your life for 30 seconds or so in November.
From: GF
10-Dec-17
If it’ll make you feel better, I’ll shoot him for you, ‘ cuz I’m more into pounds than inches!
From: Charlie Rehor
10-Dec-17
A few years back I measured a 160” ten point and also his sheds from the previous year and there was less than 2 inches difference. Also have seen quantum leaps in year to year. Genetics trumps age and nutrition.
From: kentuckbowhnter
10-Dec-17
if that buck has been eating your food plots and not getting any bigger then he deserves killin.
From: WV Mountaineer
10-Dec-17
Kill 'im.
From: stick n string
10-Dec-17
No pics??
From: spike78
10-Dec-17
Pat I don’t want you to waste a tag so I’m more then willing to get the bad genes out of the herd. No charge
From: M.Pauls
10-Dec-17
I had a 2.5 year old 6 years ago that was SUPER wide. Spindly and short tines but he was young so I had high hopes. I don’t think that darn deer changed an inch for the next four years. As a 6 year old I passed him on the ground at 15 yards. Have that year’s matched sheds. He was funny, and I often thought of him as my ‘buddy’ once I realized he just didn’t have the genetics. Up here in big territory I don’t really believe in QDMA besides letting does walk, but your situation would be different
From: Glunker
10-Dec-17
I do not think steroids would help that rack.
From: Jaquomo
10-Dec-17
I know it's mule deer and not a whitetail, but my 218 muley chugged along as a respectable 160-something for several years until one year he just blew up. I have previous sheds from consecutive years.
When I graduated from high school I was 5-11 and real skinny. Then I grew to 6-4 and added about 50 lbs. So you never know.
From: copperman
10-Dec-17
Pat your just blocky and larger......... lol just like your buck and most of us!
From: LKH
10-Dec-17
There seems to be this belief that if you let them get old enough, they all become giants. It's simply not true, Just like in people, some get big, some don't.
Years back I shot a 4.5 year old moose with 38" antlers in an any bull permit hunt. Huge body but small antlers. The letter FnW sent me after I turned the lower teeth in showed the age and antler spreads for moose they had collected teeth from over the years. 15% never get over 50" spreads, our legal minimum.
The deer in the photo is tooth aged at 6.5. Skinny and still field dressed 205. Some have it, some don't. Antlers are about 95"
From: drycreek
10-Dec-17
As already said, some add antler, some don't. My son killed a big bodied old buck a couple weeks ago that probably doesn't break 125", and there are much bigger bucks on the place we hunt. I've personally passed three or four 3.5 year olds in the last two years that were bigger, and with better symmetry. They all eat the same things, so I have no idea except genetics.
From: Griz34
10-Dec-17
Yup, here is a 5.5 year old aged by deerage.com scored a whopping 107"
From: Bowriter
11-Dec-17
LOL- Pat for about three decades, I have been saying that some buck's antlers never get bigger and the TDM guys call me a liar...not the QDM guys, two different mindsets. So, welcome to the club. This mystery we call genetics, when it comes to deer, totally excludes the doe's contribution. Never could understand that. In un-fenced environments, we may be able to improve nutrition. We may improve age class. But there is not one thing we can do about genetics. Now let's plug an antler restriction into that. Let's say a buck must have at least eight-points. Think about that and carry it out over, let's say 20 years. You will have now killed the very best bucks on your property...when they were young. You are left with bucks you have passed up because they did not develop as quickly as the genetically "superior" bucks. Common sense and just a touch of genetics 101. It is entirely possible to have an 18-month old buck with eight points. I have one in the yard on a regular basis. He was a three-point his first year and eight his second set of hard antlers but he was only a 1.5-years old. I anticipate he will be a 120-125-inch buck next year, maybe more. But under an eight-point, AR, he would be fair game. Maybe weigh field dressed, 110-pounds.
From: olebuck
11-Dec-17
I have a similar situation. Here is 3 years of pictures of the same buck.
From: Rut Nut
11-Dec-17
Pat- be grateful! I was 6’2 1/2” in H. S. and 34 yrs later I am 6’2”! ;-)
From: Franzen
11-Dec-17
Quite common. Once a spike, always a spike, duh.
From: wildwilderness
11-Dec-17
"Grandpa"
"Grandpa"
This buck got smaller every year! was never bigger than a 2x2. Finally killed him after 3 years on camera, thought he was the oldest buck on the lease. Now we are dealing with his offspring
From: Glunt@work
11-Dec-17
You must be mistaken Pat. If he's an 8 pointer he is 4 years old. Some guys at Applebees told me that.
From: njbuck
11-Dec-17
Genetics, Genetics, Genetics. Some deer have good ones and some don't. I have seen it go both ways, some deer put on tremendous growth and others don't grow at all. For example, on one property I hunt I have two bucks. One is atleast 5 and a half years old if not older. For the last three years he has had the exact same 6 pt rack, which will score around 110". If I showed you pics from the last 3 years you would not be able to tell which pic was from which year. On the same property I have a 3 year old 6x5 which would score 120". Last year he was a 90" 5x3 at 2 years old. Last year on the same property I was chasing a 160" 13 pt that had the same exact frame as this years 11 pt. The 11 gets the pass this year as there is no doubt if he lives he will be a giant for NJ next year. If the 6 pt comes in he will get an arrow as he will no doubt not get any bigger but he is also the dominant buck and is a real bully. Every November he pushes the other bucks off the property where the neighbors mentality is "brown its down". This is exactly what happened last year to the 13 pt.
From: APauls
11-Dec-17
lmao Glunt! Applebees will be the new Holiday Inn.
From: Bowriter
11-Dec-17
LOL- I have been in deer management for over 30-years. I have seen bucks go from spike to 10-points in one year and I have seen 10-points go to spikes in one year. Trust me, regardless of what you read in some magazine, you can tell absolutely nothing about what antlers a buck will have until he is past 2.5 and 3.5 is even better. There is no such thing as a cull buck if all you take into account are antlers.
From: XMan
11-Dec-17
Interesting how some deer have the genes and others don't while being in the same woodlot. Yeah, you can see how beefy and mature that deer is Pat, he should be far bigger, time for an arrow. Good luck
From: Bake
11-Dec-17
In 2014 I killed a 4 year old and a 5 year old from the stand treestand. Both killed at midday, 10 days apart. They were both multi year regulars on the farm. They were both aged by deerage.com.
The 5 year old grossed 118. The 4 year old grossed 148 (official).
Some deer have it and some don’t.
From: Wayniac
11-Dec-17
Not a bad FFd county buck.... drop him
From: Timbrhuntr
11-Dec-17
These bucks are twins !
From: LKH
11-Dec-17
Maybe the same mom, but they could be "Bluebird" twins.
From: Bowriter
11-Dec-17
Timber hunter- They may be twins by different fathers. Quit common in deer.
From: Timbrhuntr
11-Dec-17
Those bucks are a set of triplets but one disappeared as a fawn the other 2 are always together I saw them as buttons then spikes now one stayed a spike the other is this year looking like a 8 point I was surprised when I got the pics and the dramatic change from one to the other. Hope to get some pics this coming year to see if they change. This is the first time in about 15 years of watching these same deer that I have had twin bucks that were together this long.
From: TrapperKayak
11-Dec-17
QDM....You cannot improve on God's creations, sorry... :)
From: olebuck
11-Dec-17
I have a similar situation. Here is 3 years of pictures of the same buck.
From: tobywon
11-Dec-17
Along the same line, wasn't Milo Hansen's WR typical aged at 3.5? (Edit...Ohio, we must have posted at the same time)
From: Kodiak
11-Dec-17
This is the Rath buck out of MN. It netted 230" and field dressed 265. It was aged by state biologists at just 3.5 years old.
You just never know.
From: Zbone
11-Dec-17
I worked up in the Adirondacks a few months in the 80's and met a family up there that had sheds year after years of the same bucks and has hard to believe these scranty (to me) bucks racks seemed to stay about the same size year after year... I think or assumed it had to do with their nutrition, which was mainly browse...
From: Genesis
11-Dec-17
A biologist can easily be off 1-2 years off and that came from one of the nations best WT biologist
From: Will
11-Dec-17
See that. The Rath buck, and Ohio's prove that every time someone posts a trail cam pic asking if the buck is old enough, we should say give it another year. I realize they could have stayed close, but can you imagine if either Ohio's deer or the Rath buck put on say 15-20" more as a 4.5 YO... Good lord!
From: Shug
11-Dec-17
Crazy...
Here’s another end of the spectrum story... This New Jersey Buck was 3 1/3 yrs old I think it was 166” He was a 1 1/2 three point A 115” eight point and blew up to the 10 point
From: Pigsticker
12-Dec-17
Kill him and make room for something that may develop sooner. He is not what you are trying to produce and is spreading inferior genes. Too much success out there with QDM to not pay credence to the process. I live three miles from Bill Jordan of Realtree game and believe the deer on his farm and Jeff foxworthy’s which is a stones throw away are not the same as the deer on unmanaged land. As they say in drug rehab “the best gram is the program” so follow proven principles instead of conjecture on what may or may not occur with this buck.
From: carcus
12-Dec-17
Very mature buck that never got any bigger than this, we had several years of pictures, huge body, I would've shot him if given the opportunity
From: 12yards
12-Dec-17
Depends on soils and genetics. I hunt an area where the mature deer will rarely exceed 120 inches and 8 points and I think it is soils. But I'd still rather shoot a 110" deer than a yearling buck.
From: Bowriter
12-Dec-17
12-yards- I agree, it is nutrition, (soil composition), genetics and age. And I am not in any way belittling you. But why would you rather shoot a 110" deer than a yearling buck? I live in an area much the same. A 130" buck here is considered big and 110 is much more the norm.
From: wildwilderness
12-Dec-17
That Piebald is awesome. Great to have positive ID on it too. amazing what a year can do.
From: 12yards
12-Dec-17
This area is a fairly large archery only refuge that doesn't get a ton of hunting pressure so deer can get older. I've been hunting it pretty hard since the mid-1990s. It seems like the mature deer max out at 110-130. A friend owns land on the refuge and plants food plots. His cameras verify what I've seen. So a 110 is a mature deer most of the time there, it may not get bigger and a 130 would be a giant. And the area is a one deer area so I can't just shoot does and still hunt for a buck. The truth is I usually hunt close to home and shoot a deer or two, and then go up there to hunt the week before or during MN gun season. So I am very picky when I hunt up there. In fact I've only shot a handful of deer up there in over 20 years of hunting. But it is one of the only places in the state that I regularly see older bucks on public land.
From: Bowriter
12-Dec-17
"Interesting, I've always wondered what would happen if someone dropped a genetic freak into an area like you've described. Would the gene pool take off or would nutrition limit it to the point of never observing the introduced genes?"
Been done many times in many places with no noticeable impact because the genetics are so widely diluted and the nutrition-soil mineral content does not produce enough of what is required. I know of several cases where large-antlered bucks from the Midwest were released in the South with no affect. Now, that said, yes, under a high-fence situation with a relative small population, you may see some influence but again, it would be limited. We have areas of Tn that annually produce larger racked bucks. Those areas are primarily in western river bottoms where the soil is better. But still, they do not, on average, compare with mid-western bucks.
From: Ollie
12-Dec-17
QDM works fine. QDM is about producing an older age class which more often than not results in bigger antlers. I have seen plenty of old bucks on my property in Iowa that maxed out at 120-125".
From: IdyllwildArcher
12-Dec-17
Interesting thread.
From: 12yards
12-Dec-17
Yes Ollie, get on Midwest Whitetail and see Bill Winke just shot a 4.5 or 5.5 year old buck that won't score much over 130 if it will even make 130. And he's in the heart of IA trophy potential.
From: TSI
12-Dec-17
The doe passes on the traits for body sise and antler development more so than the buck.
From: Ned
13-Dec-17
Let him live.
From: Arrowhead
13-Dec-17
A three 1/2 and an 8 1/2
From: Bowriter
13-Dec-17
Hmm, does pass on antler traits and body size more so than bucks??? And just how do we know that?
From: Pigsticker
13-Dec-17
QDM, is try to control age, genetics, and nutrition. I am guessing that that your buck to doe ratio could be better and maybe you may be lacking in 3.5 and older bucks.
P. S. I know very little about QDM but believe an area with good breeding competition will promote bigger racks.
From: 12yards
13-Dec-17
Nutrition, genetics, age and health determine rack size. Not breeding competition.
From: Pigsticker
13-Dec-17
12 yards that’s the science have ever created your own thoughts versus repeating what others have written.
From: Kodiak
13-Dec-17
There's an interesting pbs show running lately that is called Extreme Weapons or some such. Anywho, the premise of the show is how oversized weapons relate to breeding in the animal kingdom. Everything from elk to beetles to fiddler crabs...
They said that in elk, 80% of the cows are bred by the bulls with the largest antlers. Interesting show, check it out.
From: skipmaster1
13-Dec-17
I love big antlers but I hunt for age class around here. I have killed a lot of bucks 4.5-6.5 years old and most of them score right around 120". I think the problem is that mature closed canopy forests lack nutrition needed to grow larger antlers. 3 of the deer have weighed over 240#s and a handful over 200#s, so they must just put all their energy into calories.
From: Bowriter
13-Dec-17
In all cervidae, the largest % of females are bred by the dominant male-regardless of antler size so long as he can get to them in time. Now. In most cases, the dominant males do have the largest or at least, heaviest antlers but not in all cases. In addition, the tighter the male/female ratio, the greater the competition. The greater the competition, the higher the incidence of injury or death. Therefore, it is entirely possible, competition is detrimental to better genetics. This is really simply a little common sense. It isn't rocket surgery. Consider this: There is oft used term, gene "pool". The word "pool" is especially important. It differentiates from genes. Without a gene pool, you would have line breeding and as a result, in breeding. That is why you need multiple male and female animals instead of just one male doing all the breeding....same with humans. And that desirable practice is what dilutes specific genes, retarding the selection in wild, free-ranging deer, for a single trait like antlers. Since genes are not age developmental, a spike can just as easily sire the next world record as the next world record can sire a spike. Age and genetics are two totally different spheres. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
From: 12yards
13-Dec-17
Not really. That's how Old Wive's Tales are created. I thought about what you posted and couldn't think of a way that competition could lead to bigger antlers. In fact it isn't always the biggest racks that win breeding competition. Body size and attitude (bullies) are a big player also.
From: Bake
13-Dec-17
My personal belief, not backed up by any science, is that larger deer herds, more competition for breeding and resources, leads to smaller racks.
Look at many many of the largest deer ever killed or found dead. . . . a healthy number of them were killed or found dead before deer populations boomed. . . .
Mel Johnson's buck, Missouri Monarch, Hole in the Horn buck, Jordan buck, and the list goes on and on and on.
My area is in a downswing right now with our deer populations. The droughts in 2011 through 2013, plus a kill-all-the-does approach, plus EHD outbreaks slammed our deer herds. Yet in 2016, I saw more BIG bucks killed in our area, than at any other time in my remembrance. I personally know of, held, or saw pictures of 6 bucks over 200 inches in 2016 within 40 miles of me, and that is simply unheard of. This year has not been as good, but a kid I know did kill a 204 typical. Nets 198, within 20 miles of me. That was simply unheard of 10 years ago when we had deer running through hair
I know I know this I small sample size. But that is my personal belief. Lower deer populations, lower competition for breeder, lower competition for available food resources, less social and herd stress (I hate being surrounded by people all the time too, I think deer feel stress from constant deer/deer interaction), all leads to bigger antler sizes in my opinion. . . .
Bake
From: Bowriter
13-Dec-17
Bake- There is some validity to your way of thinking. However, the real key is a somewhat balanced age class in both male and female. and the proper sex ratio. That requires killing the proper number of does and to determine the proper number of does, you have to know the male/female ratio to start with. That, in most instances, is almost impossible. But...when you accomplish that, providing you have sufficient feed, the total number of animals is not that critical.
From: 12yards
13-Dec-17
"Sufficient feed". That is huge. Bowriter and Bake, I agree with you. The question is what is that number where you hunt? If you are in a transition area with ag/woods, you can have a heck of a lot of deer and not see a decline in antler size. In habitats where I hunt up north in MN, 15-20 per sq. mile might be too many where the habitat is mostly woods.
From: steve
13-Dec-17
PAT Its time to take him out !! we have some like that I have been chasing a 6 for 3 or 4 years he has gotten more mass but never a point .and we need a blood trail !! Steve
From: SILVERADO
13-Dec-17
We have one 8 on our property since 2014 same thing. Clone rack every year. Although he’s a ghost. Pics of him all summer then a week b4 opener he’s never seen again. Him in 2014
From: Pigsticker
13-Dec-17
Bake , I agree on booming populations not producing the biggest rack.
bowriter I agree on herd structure.
12yards, I have a friend who hunted comfortably in a wetsuit this with light outer layer in the teens.
Out of the box how we got to the compound, grunt tubes, and carbon arrows.
From: SILVERADO
13-Dec-17
2015
From: SILVERADO
13-Dec-17
2016
From: SILVERADO
13-Dec-17
2017
From: TSI
13-Dec-17
You can not correct a genetic flaw,you can eliminate it from the breeding group.The most dominant buck is not necessarily the most desirable buck.Simply breeding a dominant trait to random females will not produce optimal results.The Doe should be of superior bloodline to ensure the offspring will show the desired traits your looking to achieve.The buck is a dud and I’d consider him of no value genetically.
From: South Farm
13-Dec-17
I had NO IDEA they aged, or had a need to age, bucks back when the Rath buck was killed. Ya learn something new everyday..
From: Pigsticker
13-Dec-17
Pigsticker's Link
This is a quote from attached link. Albeit, the study is on Rowe deer but it shows that antler growth may be more than the standard triad of age, nutrition, and genetics. “Males also grow antlers anew each year, which are involved in fights during intra-sexual competition and their size is positively associated with lifetime reproductive success ”.
From: Kodiak
13-Dec-17
South farm, yeah the Rath buck was definitely aged. Personally I think it might be the most impressive whitetail ever taken. He 'only' scored 231 nontypical, but his rack is shockingly huge in person. Another view.
From: wackmaster2
13-Dec-17
Some deer have it and some don’t. just like people. Some will never be good lookin.
From: Mike-TN
14-Dec-17
Silverado.... I have that issue as well with some of my bucks. There all summer then gone in early October. IMO these bucks are just going to the food and my farm is not their “home range” during the rut. I have made the mistake of thinking .... it’s early in the season and I’ve got plenty of time to get this buck killed. Not anymore. If I have a good buck coming into food early in the season then I get after him then. he is WAY easier to kill then vs. the rut. By “get after him then” I mean I start watching the 10 day weather forecast intently. I have had great success on mature bucks by not hunting at all until the temp drops significantly. In the early season this may be 85 down to upper 60s or low 70s but that tends to get them on their feet and in the food before dark.
Mike
From: Duke
14-Dec-17
I would agree as many have pointed out already---some deer have "it" and others don't. Some deer will live to be 7.5 and never have a set of antlers that exceed 120". -Personally, I don't care about inches and go after mature deer so I see it and get it. -Some of my favorite deer that I hunted for a couple years have rather mediocre racks. More times than not, the older deer will possess some of the bigger racks where I am at, but certainly not always.
As far as genetics and "weeding out" certain bucks as culls or whatever you call them... I think it is generally pretty darn difficult and impractical in the wild as the genetics of the deer are so interwoven and co-mingled within each area, not to mention does are carrying 1/2 of the given genetics!
