The Changing Face of Bowhunting-Archery
Equipment
Let's be realistic. The face of bowhunting is changing. The face of archery is not. Bowhunting is just that-hunting with a bow. Archery, for the most part, is shooting at a target with a bow.
Yes, the face of bowhunting is slightly changing. There are fewer hunters using vertical bows. Is that the fault of crossbows? Take crossbows away, the number of hunters using vertical bows will still decline. The reason is simple. The number of hunters in total is declining. If there is a growth area, it is crossbows. In fact, long-term, crossbows may contribute to somewhat of an incline in vertical bow shooters, just as in-line muzzle loaders created an incline in that area.
Equipment is not a major contributing factor in the decline in bowhunters. If it were, compounds would have killed it years ago. Lighted sights would have, releases would have, range finders would have ad nauseum. No, you cannot blame equipment. The blame lies entirely with a changing societal composition. If you want a perfect example, look at NASCAR.
Technology may certainly play a part in the decline in all hunting. But crossbows do play a part in that segment. And as far as I can tell, the face of archery, competitive archery, has not changed at all. Apples and oranges.
One major mistake bowriter. Compounds were considered hand drawn bows and therefore users were considered bowhunters . This is not true of crossbows.
If you put down your compound as many have, and begin hunting with a crossbow, we have not lost a hunter, just a bowhunter. At least a bowhunter as defined by the P&Y Club..
There is a decline in youth becoming bow hunters but I put that on the lack of two parent families. The acceptance of single parenting and government dependence is shocking in my lifetime. Nothing to do with equipment.
I also believe the CWD will play a negative role. Some think of venison as pure and wholesome, the CWD news is undoing this belief. You will see more and more members in the household not wanting to handle venison and feed it to themselves, or their children. Some hunters are already shying away from hunting or eating venison from endemic areas. CWD is being discovered now in many states and testing and travel restrictions are becoming more broad. This is logical thinking given the unknown nature of this disease, it has to hurt the quest for venison for consumption.
The single largest issue causing any decline in hunter participation is access. Access to quality hunting ground. If you have no place to hunt or no place good to hunt then it makes it pretty tough.
Brotsky is dead on 100%. In second place is loss agricultural/rural upbringing or raising. Kids today, except in rural areas where they can literally hunt in their backyards, play video games after school...or play organized sports. The reason is simply because they have no place to hunt with easy access. And, this applies to their fathers as well. I detail this in my article to a great extent, explaining the added cost related to just this one factor.
In researching the article, crossbows do not even rate a mention because they, in fact, are a positive factor except in a growing minority of minds. Fewer "bowhunters" oppose crossbows in bow season than ever before.
"One major mistake bowriter. Compounds were considered hand drawn bows and therefore users were considered bowhunters . "...Not a mistake-difference of opinion.
I don't seem to remember any trad guys defending the inclusion of compounds by justifying them as "hand drawn bows" back when they first came out.
"Cheating", "mechanical bows", "Will lead to shorter seasons", etc...were the cries I heard. The funny thing is that many of those guys eventually quietly switched to compounds as they grew older.
Bowriter are you saying that compounds and crossbows are both hand drawn? I guess in a way they are, but one is done before the animal even comes into view. Most modern crossbows also use a crank or similar cocking device. I was using the general but not universally accepted P&Y Club definition of a bow and it's user...the bowhunter.
Both the bow and crossbow are archery equipment, one shot by a bowhunter, the other by a crossbow hunter.
I have a difference of opinion regarding classification. A crossbow is archery equipment. Merely a different iteration thereof. Just as a compound differs from a long bow or recurve. Other than that I agree with Bowriter's OP.
The truth is that some on this board are already using crossbows, and many plan to in the future. There is nothing wrong with that, except they do not admit it.
Missouribreaks-No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is, if it propels a projectile known as an arrow or bolt,(simply semanitcs,), and propels it via a string or cable and it is used to hunt with during bow season then it is bowhunting. However and this is a big however. I know traditional shooters I would not call bowhunters and I know crossbow shooters I would.
In short, a bowhunter is NOT defined simply by the type of bow he or she uses any more than jockey is simply someone who rides a horse. If it is included in bowseason, by my definition, that is bowhunting. It does not mean the user is a bowhunter.
I did not come to this conclusion simply. Many years ago I testified before our game commission, lobbying to prevent the use of crossbows even by the handicapped. When it suddenly became clear to me, when we...all of us, start forming against each other simply because of something so trivial, we are in trouble.
To my knowledge, not one state...none, not one, has shortened a season or reduced a bag limit due to crossbows or compounds. Therefore, of what difference is it to me, what you or anyone uses so long as it is legal? Once I accepted that mindset, trivial matters like crossbows and shooting young deer and any myriad of prejudices we Bowhunters seem to have, became ridiculous. I have been shooting a crossbow for 11-years. I hate it but I have no choice. I have missed more deer with it than I have in the same number of years with a compound. I have had to pass up more shots due to space constraints. My longest shot to date has been 33-yards. But...I am still and always will be, a bowhunter.
In one of the first years I hunted with a crossbow, I was on a hunt with my friend, M.R. James. I was a bit worried what he might think. He was not the least concerned because he knew nothing about me had changed. Only what was in my hands.
It has been my experience that I have met just as many slobs shooting compounds and trads as I have shooting crossbows. Actually more because I have not met many crossbow shooters.
Thank you Bowriter and best of luck in all your hunting and writing ventures. I appreciate the dialogue and respect your opinions.
Missouribreaks, let me just add this footnote. I realize you are a traditional hunter. As such, by choice, you decline to use much in the way of technology advancement. That is entirely your choice and I support that. However, I do suggest you take a look at the big picture and decide what is important. What, if any threat is the crossbow to you? Will you be forced to use one? Will it keep you out of any record books? Has it decreased your bag limit or your season length? Have you lost any hunting days?
Compare this to understanding Bible scripture. If I do not understand a passage, I ask myself one question. "Will completely understanding this passage help me get to Heaven or will it keep me out?" The answer is always no. So, I quit worrying about it and continue reading.
I do the same with matters regarding hunting and fishing. Sometimes, not often, there are matters that do have an impact on what I believe to be sound management. When that happens, I voice my concerns. If it makes no difference but maybe is something I don't agree with, I don't have much to say. I wear tennis shoes to hunt. Maybe you wear rubber boots. I don't care, do you?
Bowriter, I really do not worry about crossbows. I do however like to create logical discussions around the potential impacts on bowhunting culture, bowhunting clubs, archery seasons, public perception, and the industry. When some say crossbows have no effect whatsoever it shows their lack of ability to see the larger picture. The real question is what will the effects be, not will there be an impact. Too many here think only about whitetails. Many other species are already on quotas, limited draws, and other restrictions as seen with brown bear. Some states such as Montana do not allow crossbows at all, one could ask why if they have no impact? In the larger picture, does any of it really matter to me? The answer is no, hunting is not a priority in my life, just something I have done. Can take it or leave it.
Have nothing against crossbows, the only thing I don't care for is I see and here to many people road hunting using them. My option all weapons should be cased in an auto.
Okay-we agree on something. Some species have quotas due to low numbers. Can you name one for which that quota was put in place due to crossbows? I would find that interesting. MT allows no crossbows. Do they have quotas on some species and limited draws? And if you want to know why MT does not allow crossbows, ask them. You know, some states do not allow Sunday hunting. I'm sure they have a good reason.
Maybe we should compromise and have no crossbow hunting on Sunday? :)
Sadly, rural kids can't 'just go hunt in their backyards unless their parents own it or lease it. Hunting in North America has become a 'pay to play sport....and an expensive one at that! With society being one of 'haves and have nots' we won't be seeing any growth in numbers of new hunters.
Bowriter I never stated that crossbows were the cause of quotas and limited draws. Other have posted on this board that the influx of compound bowhunters in the 1970's may have had an "impact" on the season structures. That did not come from me, but may have some truth.
Being open minded, I do believe as crossbow use spreads across the US..... should harvest success rates increase, and more hunters move from gun seasons to archery seasons as outlined in the Wisconsin/Michigan article, for certain species they will have an impact on tag allotments and drawing success. Do I care, no, but not to consider, or even deny the possibility is not sound thinking.
Let's say a season is 4 weeks long with the objective by managers to harvest 250 animals. One thousand hunters apply for the 750 available tags, with managers expecting a roughly 33% harvest rate to make objective. If the harvest success rate increases to 45% due to technology, hunters will kill animals in excess of the objective. If more hunters leave gun hunting as in Wisconsin, there may actually be 1500 applicants for the available archery tags, at the same time that technology has caused a decrease in allocated tags. This will be the trend, not saying it matters much.
MB, for the 25 years I have been a bowhunter folks have been predicting that technology would decrease hunting opportunity. I doubt anyone can present a compelling argument that has happened.
Do yourself a favor. Go outside, close your eyes (maybe even don some safety glasses), look up, and wait 10 seconds or so. Spoiler alert: that sensation you won't feel is the sky not falling.
I agree with Brotsky, noting is more detrimental then lack of access. That is the main reason hunting has become so money centric. It will be our demise.
The cost of bowhunting is killing it's self. X bow or verticle, the cost to start out is just terrible today as compared to firearm hunting. You can buy a very respectable big game rifle and scope for under $400.00 and a box of ammo and in an afternoon be ready to hunt.
Two reasons. 1: The lack of access to hunting land. 2: The inner desire or at least interest shown to WANT to hunt by the individual regardless of age. If your that concerned about the lack of hunters.
Which In the areas Wisconsin where I hunt and roam there ain't no shortage of hunters, maybe its a private land thing where it is. Then you need to go back to reason number one. Simple as that.
Today you can buy an "entry-level" bow from a number of companies with sight and stabilizer, ready to shoot, for $500 that's as good or better than the $1,000 bows of 8-9 years ago. I bought a Diamond Infinite Edge for a friend to start out, and that bow drove tacks right out of the box after I adjusted the sight pins for him.
Every kid today is walking around in $150 shoes with a $700 phone in their pocket. I don't believe price is any deterrent to bowhunting. It's the changing social landscape, lack of access, the near-universal need for instant gratification.
Cause of decline in bowhunting/archery - the decay of 2 parent (father-mother) American family.
What happens to the family institution so goes a society and all things related to a society as well as other institutions (government, education & religion).
Access is the main problem. And no amount of recruiting is going to save hunting. There will never be enough hunters. Acceptance by non-hunters is the key. As for crossbows I’m sick of the lobbying. Money has won but they still don’t belong in bow season.
Brotsky nailed it....the 2 A`s.....Access and animals....if you don`t have a family member with land or friend....your shelling out $$$ in the Midwest. Then if the kids don`t see animals it`s over. Take a kid fishing nowadays....and you don`t catch any fish. That last 2 maybe 3 times and that`s it. Access is hard for adult bowhunters as most land is locked up with other hunters.
Access to lands to hunt are a big deal. Lucky where I live there still are areas left, IF you want to spend some time packing in to get away from the crowds. Kids are busy and always distracted by other things. However with two teenagers in the house both find time to shoot bows with Dad. I am lucky this year as my daughter (16) and son (14) are both shooting archery league (video hunt) with me. We were three for three on turkey tags last year (Dad, Mom and son), my daughter has expressed an interest for this spring. She has been with to scout, call, film, but has not hunted, til now. All is not lost so keep fighting the good fight guys.
The seven factors I felt needed to be mentioned and examined were as follows and these are not in order of importance. The numbers are just to keep them separate. #1-Access. #2-Cost, #3-Technology, as in video games and I-pads etc. #4 Increase in urbanization-fewer kids growing up in the country, even just playing outside. 5- Television outdoor programming. 6- State regulations. 7- Organized school and other sports programs now running all year.
I 100% agree with the comments Brotsky, Trial 153, Walks With and Steve D made. Many good comments. I was forced to look at this with an open mind and absorb the information presented in facts and figures. Also, I was not just looking at hunting. My figures included fishing and hiking etc. All outdoor nature based usage and fees. The one thing that struck me is this.
In TN between 2005 and 2008, the number of licenses-hunting and fishing-decreased by almost 160,000 sales. That is from a base of not quite 800,000. Think about that. That is approximately a 20% decrease in three years. Unfortunately, no figures were available on what that translated to in terms of dollars lost to the state. But I can state with certainty, none of the decrease was due to crossbows. TN was/is one of the last states to feel this trend. The reasons being, we have a more than ample animal population, there are over 1-million acres of public land and we still have a somewhat agrarian society. However, now that crunch reaches us.
The major factor in decrease in fishing license sales is cost. Second is the couch potato syndrome in youth and third is organized sports. I was quite surprised to learn, "Dads not taking kids fishing.", was a very minor factor. It was more, kids not wanting to go. Conversely, there were several comments regarding Dad not being able to afford to take a kid fishing and that surprised me until I considered the lack of access to water where the kid actually had a good chance of catching something. I suppose, the same can applied to hunting.
This quote from Ground Hunter is dead on as well. "...as for the kids etc, well their lives are different today, from when I grew up,,,, my dad and I tramped around all over the place, hunting, its what we did,,,,, I was not caught up in a schedule, that hardly would let me breathe,,,,, different world......."
There are and will always be, those caught up in their own agenda and unable to look at almost any subject objectively-much as it is with anti-hunters. They have one agenda to which they are opposed and that is blamed for everything. A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste. We should never have moved the dimmer switch from the floor board. It has ruined driving. (that's a joke.)
Bowriter I will say it one more time so you understand.
Nobody stated the overall decline of hunting was due to crossbows, in fact that is NOT the case. The OP on the original thread and attached Michigan/Wisconsin article merely outlined how many have left vertical, hand drawn bowhunting for the crossbow, trends so to speak. The article provides some information for those on this board who always spew out something like "show me some proof, or statistics". It is just one article highlighting a few trends, the biggest which is the decline of bowhunting as it is defined by the P&Y Club, ie vertical, hand drawn bow use. The article also shows a trend of gun hunters moving into archery seasons, and it indicates crossbows are not a recruitment tool in those two states.
Please do not continue with fake news. We all know you are a crossbow hunter as are some others and their families on this forum. Times are evolving, vertical, hand drawn bow use is in decline, those are real facts.
Cross guns do not = Archery hunting Here is a link to the "archery" wikipedia page. Funny thing is, I don't see a picture of a single cross gun...
I have a different perspective. I believe a lot of the decline in hunting in general is due to the 'whitetail focus' of the last 30 or so years. Take a 12 year old kid and make him sit in a treestand, sit still, and be quiet for hours on end, you need deer to be walking past every 10-15 minutes or he/she is bored. There really aren't many areas this is possible. Take that same kid squirrel/pheasant/rabbit hunting, when they get bored move. You get shooting every outing.
As usual I have a totally different view in the decline. For me it is strictly a societal result of the softer, gentler, and lack of rigor. I have worked with the Army in one capacity or another for forty years and the psyche and physicality of today’s 18-20 year old has changed over time and not for the better. This is not to say that they are not some great young Americans out there. I believe that we are a better Army than that of any period during my forty years but I do believe if we had to do a massive draft that we would get the quality that they did in WWI. It is not just kids because I see adults sleeping in over braving the elements to see nothing all day.
Today we are always seeking comfort and hunting by it’s various nature is a rigorous event. I recently had a fellow Bowsiter join me on a tough public land whitetail hunt in which his buddy backed out at the last minute. He said no one his age really wanted to hunt the way that he did. Sure they would hunt by riding a 4 wheeler to a shoot house for a morning hunt and come back in the afternoon for a couple hours but there was no damn way that they were going to sleep in a tent and sit in the elements that occurr on an all day sit. Look at OTC Will’s thread on their Kodiak hunt and even though they have a comfortable camp you can see that the hunt itself is a labor of love. This may attract some but it is not going to appeal to the masses.
Crossbows do not bring additional people into hunting as a whole. All they do is draw additional people (rifle hunters) into hunting during the separate bow seasons. Hunters start with rifles. No one says who has never hunted before says, “Well, since I can use a crossbow now, I believe I will become a hunter.”
Crossbows are much more akin to short-range rifles than hand-drawn archery equipment.
How many here have witnessed an excited hunter with one of their first bucks, facing some older more experienced hunter who says "that'd been a great buck in another year or two"?
How many here have been the hunter saying that? I have also seen the look of 'crap, I really screwed up' or 'crap I don't want to be like that hunter' or even 'never doing this again' in the eyes of that new hunter. Surely some of you guys here have to.
That buck is a great buck right now, if it makes the hunter happy.
It may not be a huge factor, but an 'elitist' attitude among hunters is a turn off to new hunters.
Don't get me wrong these attitudes are mixed in with about anything you're interested in - if you don't 'do it' like I do then you're really not a 'whatever'. Maybe you (new guy) shouldn't do it at all!
I'm pretty sure that if you hunt with a device that uses a string to propel an arrow, you are a bowhunter. I really don't need some particular source to define this for me.
It would seem that many here would tell an able bodied 30 year old male who hunts 3 days a year with a crossbow and has only killed a few small 1 1/2 year old bucks, that he isn't really a hunter or a bowhunter.
And is that helping or hurting hunting or bowhunting? Or put another way, You can be part of the problem or part of the solution - Pick one.
Lou wrote "The funny thing is that many of those guys eventually quietly switched to compounds as they grew older."
OMG, I cannot believe some of the really hardcore Trad guy's who have made that switch. But have also seen some hardcore Compound guy's switch top Trad and go off the deep end badmouthing Compounds and technology.
Some excellent comments and some no so much. Ground Hunter and KX 500 are right on. That, relates to the trophyism, I spoke of and I connect that in a large part to current television programming.
And Missouri breaks- Go back and read my original post. I started this thread. It is not related to any article from WI which I have not read. It is the result of several posters, blaming crossbows for just about everything. By my count, you were the first. You said, and I quote,
"One major mistake bowriter. Compounds were considered hand drawn bows and therefore users were considered bowhunters . This is not true of crossbows. If you put down your compound as many have, and begin hunting with a crossbow, we have not lost a hunter, just a bowhunter. At least a bowhunter as defined by the P&Y Club."
So, by your definition, anyone who picks up a crossbow is not a bowhunter. I do not agree and as you can see by reading the posts, neither do many on here.
Now, this thread has lost its' value. So, suggest we shut it down. I was heartened to see hwo many grasp the real problem.
I was very clear I was using the P&Y Club CURRENT definition of a bow, please review their website. I am sure users of crossbows such as bowriter and others on here will define it differently. Everybody wants to be a bowhunter, LOL!
Pigsticker, no doubt Americans are becoming soft relative to the outdoors.
After the Civil War the US Govt was concerned that men were becoming soft. So in an effort to encourage them to get back outdoors and into the woods, the massive federal rainbow trout stocking program was started. The reflection pool at the Monument in DC used to be the federal fish hatchery. That's how put-take trout fishing began, and spread across the country.
JTV, lol you say that the crossbow is a crossgun. Well let's compare your compgun to the crossgun. Both have triggers to release the arrow, both have sights to aim, and both have wheels to propel the arrow at faster speeds. One is vertical and one is horizontal, so what. Both weapons make it easy with little or no practice to become proficient with and must you be reminded that a crossgun predates your compgun by thousands of years. So for someone complaining of shooting a bow horizontal vs vertical is a stretch. If your position is that someone is not a bow hunter due to using a crossbow, then I guess I as someone who uses trad gear could say that compound shooters are not bow hunters but that would be ignorant. Maybe someone might want to dismou thier high horse and relax a bit, crossbows are here to stay, like it or not. Not sure why your so angry about it? Are crossbow hunters shooting your deer? Are they coming out of the woods with a tag filled as you watch without a deer In The bed of your truck? Where's the anger coming from? Relax, shoot your compgun and let others shoot what they want. Don't really see much of a difference between the two weapons.
If all we care about is selling more licenses during the archery season then we should let all weapons be legal...including firearms. That will get even more people participating during the "archery" season.
And as I recall, one of the 1st arguments against crossbows, was how far they could shoot accurately. How many posts are there now about 100 yard shots with compound bows? Pretty sure the modern compound bow, capable of 100 yard shots is fairly technologically advanced. What technological advantage does the crossbow have again? Oh, right, some of them look really menacing and 'unarchery' like.
What's the difference? Explain ,please explain how your compgun with 80% let off and sights and release differs. Does your let off allow you to pre draw and hold back for mins on end while the deer walks into you lane? Does your trigger release allow for a smooth release of the arrow? do your sights allow you to shoot beyond what a instinctive shooter can? Tell me the difference, if you can.
As Charlie Rehor and Brotsky stated and others agreed to: lack of two parent families and the wide societal acceptance / encouragement of single parenting leading to deeper government dependence plus less access to quality resources is what hurts not only hunter recruitment but also many other aspects of our lives. The true symbiotic relationship between human species and nature must be preserved without hesitation. We cannot live in a sandbox environment. It is encouraging to see many finally beginning to understand what is derailing human society and hopefully start thinking about applying course corrections before disaster takes us too far into the abyss.
Splitting hairs there JTV. As someone who shoots trad you realize how much practice it takes and the limitations trad has, whereas a compgun takes no where near the time to practice. Can your realease be fine tuned for certain let off? The sights give a huge advantage in aiming, as does a 3x9. Your srabalizer does basically the same as a bipod, it stabilizes the shot. The similarities in compguns and crossguns are so close that it's hard to argue any different. The same argument your making against a crossbow as a compound shooter can be made by trad vs compound. So using your view of crossbow shooters could be applied to compound shooters, that they are not bowhunters because of the tech. Come on now,doesn't fly.
Deer tag sales have increased the last number of years in Manitoba at a time when deer populations are at like a 30 year low. Go figure. Seems like the number of hunters is up. Archery hunting is way up. Used to be a limited group, but now since it has become easier with compound technology there are more hunters.
... and this is a good example of circumstances leading to human species demise ... uffff ... Can we use a logical flow chart to determine which hunting implement qualifies as archery instead of name calling?
Crossbows or Garmin's new range finding bow sight. Which is a bigger advantage.
Usually when the name calling starts JTV it means you have no argument, which you don't. So keep on with you elitist attitude towards crossbows and keep using your compgun, it's okay. Curious, do you have an elite bow? would make perfect sense. Also maybe some anger management sessions might help.
Bowriter set the goal posts insofar as what qualifies as bowhunting equipment in his first post, but some here feel the need to try to move the goal posts in order to sidetrack the conversation to suit an agenda.
Usually when the name calling starts JTV it means you have no argument, which you don't. So keep on with you elitist attitude towards crossbows and keep using your compgun, it's okay. Curious, do you have an elite bow? would make perfect sense. Also maybe some anger management sessions might help.
I have E.G. Heath's fabulous and comprehensive book, "The Grey Goose Wing - A History of Archery". In it crossbows are featured prominently as "archery" tools throughout history, though primarily for warfare.
It seems some would revise history to suit their own personal biases. But then, that's human nature.
I see crossbows as part of the archery family. Like firearms, just because something is a firearm doesn't automatically mean its a good fit for firearm season.
The obvious effect of including crossbows is that it makes participation in bow season easier. If higher participation makes sense for the season and the resource, they can be a plus. Where I live, most of the big issues bowhunters complain about are related to a low supply of opportunity, resource and access compared to the high demand for them.
I agree with Bowriter’s initial thoughts as my own experiences reflect the fact that societal changes seem to be resulting in less hunters. I’m 35 and currently live in Chicago but have lived all over the country in the last 10 years (UT, CA, CT, NY, IL), relocating multiple times for work. In that time I’ve overlapped many social circles and I’ve only run into two other people in my age group who were active hunters. I understand Chicago is a liberal bastion but even among conservatives I am viewed as some sort of crazy mountain man when my hobbies come up in conversation. When I never hear of new hunters entering the sport and more of the country’s youth moving towards urbanization and technology, it is difficult to make the argument that hunting hardware (i.e. crossbows) is having a material impact on hunting’s decline. It’s a combination of the pussification of America and diminishing access to quality hunting areas. That said, as a hunter I need to turn that critical eye on myself as well…I could do more to attempt to recruit young people into the sport. That is the where the battle must truly be fought, new hunter recruitment. If not, we will be faced with an increasing anti-hunting movement that continues to gain ground in state and national politics where wildlife management decisions are based on emotions instead of fact, the most prominent example being the B.C. grizzly ban which just took place. As hunters we need to stop the bickering amongst ourselves and focus on what is good for hunting, which ultimately equates to broader societal education on hunting and new hunter recruitment. If a crossbow helps a youngster get into a treestand and ignites a passion for hunting, I don’t see an issue with that.
I'm just glad my STEP-DAD bought me that bow when I was 13. Don't know if I would've ever picked it up after I got out of the service. Chance circumstance that a guy at a convenience store asked me if I wanted to go bowhunting for deer in 1991. If I didn't have that bow, likely would've said no.
Crossbows, they don't concern me, nor should they, they're legal. Kind of like bitching about the people who choose to bait. None of my business.
Is it possible that funds collected from hunters to be actually used against hunting overall? Given all land acquired using said funds it seems that we are facing an increasing lack of public land access for hunters. How is that possible?
I also agree on young hunter recruitment by hunters who reached an age when they are ready to pass on skill and knowledge, including their now hard to reach honey hole spots. We all age and need help to continue hunting at some point in time. Why not share what was learned and discovered the same way human beings did long time ago? Why not teach the young that instant gratification is an addiction illness, that fair chase is rewarding but difficult to attain, that getting close to nature is not a catastrophic event, that technological advance is good as long as it is a positive force, and that knowing is where a relationship begins and competition ends. Demonstrate that hyped TV hunting shows are scripted and orchestrated to lead hunting to its demise and that paying thousands of dollars for hunting trophies is obscene / disrespectful in that it takes away from the soul filling moment of humbleness when the hunter kneels next to an animal with respect for the life taken.
Remember that success starts with confronting and defeating our own individual inner demon.
JTV, whatever you need to tell yourself. There are more similarities with compguns and crossguns as you call them. Your unwilling to admit it, fine. And as I and several others have mentioned, crossbow predate your compgun by a thousand years, and your going to tell everyone they aren't considered bows lol. You stay in your world and make yourself feel better telling yourself what you need to stay happy lol. By the way, nice trophy in your profile, did you kill it with your compgun?
JTV, whatever you need to tell yourself. There are more similarities with compguns and crossguns as you call them. Your unwilling to admit it, fine. And as I and several others have mentioned, crossbow predate your compgun by a thousand years, and your going to tell everyone they aren't considered bows lol. You stay in your world and make yourself feel better telling yourself what you need to stay happy lol. By the way, nice trophy in your profile, did you kill it with your compgun?
"Cross guns do not = Archery hunting Here is a link to the "archery" wikipedia page. Funny thing is, I don't see a picture of a single cross gun..."
Instead of looking at the pictures you might want to read the post for the definitions. It lists the crossbow as a type of bow.
Oh so many changes in my now 62 years of Archery-yes I started in 1956. I've also met Bowriter long ago but not being a celebrity, I know he would never recall that. Charlie Rehor hit on a great point also on the parent thing of today. I remember the day a state Field shoot would have more shooters than the Nationals of today. We have so many different things we can/could point to. Crossbows, I do believe, will make a difference in our Deer hunting down the road but not so much in the target competition. I just know I am/have passed this awesome sport onto my children, G-Children & many others.. Time will tell how bowhunting fares but I've seen some pretty big "changing" events & we're still enjoying what most of us love.
We have tons of kids shooting archery here in CO, in the schools program, club programs, CBA shoots. Problem is that they rapidly drop out at about age 16-17. A few come back, most do not. National statistics show that too. I'm not sure crossbows have anything to do with that but I can guarantee there's not many 21 years olds out there saying to themselves, "Man I'd get back into bowhunting if only they'd allow crossbows in my state". There are also absolutely zero saying to themselves, "Bowhunting ain't like it used to be, damned crossbows are ruining everything, I think I'll quit".
I used to fret about high tech reducing bow seasons but with coaching, I lose all the bow only season anyways. I use my longbow during rifle season and get 7 days after rifle ends. The advantage I have is being able to shoot either sex. In these woods, groundhunting, and shooting quick, I would put my longbow against any crossbow or compound for that matter. Not having to hunt for horns if I choose, I would even pit my longbow against a rifle for bringing home meat. I have shot the same longbow for 32 years, it is a part of me, and it is all I use to hunt deer, other than taking my flinter for an annual walk in the woods. Bowhunting may change for some, but not for me. Perfectly happy with my Meigs LB and my wood arrows. Use what you wish.
Was there a moment in time when you stopped hunting for personal satisfaction and started hunting for validation by others?
Seems like a lot of these threads may come back to that.................
"Does your let off allow you to pre draw and hold back for mins on end while the deer walks into you lane?"
Minutes on end? Really?
LBhunter, have you spent significant time shooting a compound? Where do you get these ideas? Just because it has 80% letoff doesn't mean you only have to hold 20%. You have to hold 35+ or you risk letting down and if you want to hold for a long time, you have to hold 50%+ or you will draw down. When I draw in a hunting scenarior, I hold at 50%+ for consistency and so I can swivel my body without risk of drawing down.
My compound is set at 52 lbs and I can hold it for about 45 seconds before I start to shake and lose accuracy. My 43 lb recurve I can hold for 15 seconds before I start to shake and lose accuracy. You think the difference of 30 seconds is that profound? It does make a difference, but I cannot think of one animal out of the last 20 that I've killed where that 30 seconds made a difference.
A coupound still has to be drawn in the presence of an animal and that is the hardest thing about bowhunting. Perhaps you don't think this is the case, but you hunt with a longbow so you are assuming. Getting close is easy comparably.
Idyllwildarcher, JTV was jumping on bowriter for his opinion on how bowhunting is changing. JTV took the attitude that crossbow hunters are not bowhunters due to the so called advantage crossgun gives, and that it lays horizontally. I was simply comparing his compgun to a crossbow. One of the many advantages a compound gives the Hunter is they can draw prior to the animal getting in on them and hold for the shot, you wouldn't disagree with that would you? Similar to a crossbow, where the string is drawn back and ready to fire. Similar are they not? I have never shot a release even when I did shot a compound years ago. Releases allow for a smoother release do they not? Your sights on your bow allow you to aim similar to a scope, put the pin on the target and squeeze the trigger on your release, yes? Technology has given a leg up to hunters who choose to take that route and that's fine, don't have a problem with what you shoot. But for some idiot (JTV) to say that crossbows aren't bows and the guys who shoot them aren't bowhunters is absurd. For him to angrily attack bowriter for his opinion/view is just down right crazy, go back and read it. I was just comparing the two high tech bows that are available to today's archers/hunters.
Now, just because your only able to hold your bow back for 45 seconds,, it's still a huge advantage. How long can I hold my 52 lb predator? No where near that long, in fact I don't hold at all, I draw when the animal is in my kill zone 0-30 yards. Doing that while on the ground is certainly more difficult than shooting from a drawn position. I have friends who shoot compounds and are able to hold back for longer periods of times, and I'm sure there are others who can as well. The point was to contrast how compounds give an advantage just like a crossbow.
I’m confused. You post that JTV had no argument since he resorted to name calling. Then you turn around and call him an idiot? Gotta love the internet.
Can you imagine if you could bolt a sight and use a release on a recurve? Or shoot a compound barebow and with fingers? That might bring down the internet.
There always seems to be a transient few on this site whose focus it is to identify the functional differences between equipment types and then extrapolate them magnify them to draw distinctions that don't exist - or at least not nearly to the degree they pretend. Maybe if they spent more time shooting or hunting they wouldn't feel the need.....
I'm not commenting on crossbows vs compounds vs trad bows, but to me, the problem is not the equipment, but rather as Lou and Greg pointed out. The lack of the family unit that most of us probably had, plus the access, not just land to hunt, but room to shoot bows and/or guns without infringing on our neighbors.
IMO though, our biggest problem is that to most of the general population, what we love to do is repugnant. We kill animals and they don't like it ! Some of them haven't stopped to think exactly what would happen if no more animals died, and the rest don't care. Our next problem is the infighting. You can't win a tug-of-war if the pullers start shoving each other !
"One of the many advantages a compound gives the Hunter is they can draw prior to the animal getting in on them and hold for the shot, you wouldn't disagree with that would you?"
No. That is not a huge advantage. Again, out of the last 20 animals I've killed, I cannot think of one where I didn't have an animal in view/range, draw, and let the animal walk into range. You are overestimating the value of letoff. What letoff accomplishes is allowing one to relax the draw muscles some which allows for a) higher poundage bows (for some) and b) the muscles to relax some which increases accuracy and the aiming time. Yes, in some circumstances, people do use letoff to draw when an animal is in cover, but so do people with trad bows on walking animals... you just have a few more seconds with a compound. It's not the advantage you make it out to be. 95% of my kills are under 25 yards and I wait till their eyes are behind a tree or they're looking away or draw from a tree when they're close, same as you.
I'm not getting into the crossbow discussion. I was responding to this:
"Does your let off allow you to pre draw and hold back for mins on end while the deer walks into you lane?"
...which is a ridiculous statement. No one is drawing and holding for "mins on end." Have the average bowhunter draw his compound and hold in a true shooting position for 60 seconds, then shoot, and test his accuracy, especially at distance. I've done this, myself, and viewed others. Everyone's groups suffer and it's more and more pronounced the farther you get from the target.
Totally agree with post above.
The number of people bow-hunting (not including cross-bows) in Montana more than doubled between 1988 and 2008. I don't have statistics on what has happened since then, but I imagine that bow-hunter numbers have continued to climb in Montana - at least I sure see more bow-hunters than before. So the idea that bow-hunter numbers are in decline is not the case in Montana. As far as hunter numbers in general go, they are in decline. I'm guessing that there are a lot more options in terms of activities for youths to do, that compete with hunting, than there used to be. Also, like others have said, I think the reduction in land open to hunting also has an effect. In parts of Montana, lots of land that used to be open to hunting, is not any longer - either sold to people who won't allow hunting (typically extremely wealthy people that are buying huge ranches, or being leased out to outfitters for very limited hunting).
Idyllwildarcher, Ok, I'll take your word that you don't hold back but I know others do. Regardless of time held back the point I was making is that compounds give advantages as does the crossbow. Again, comparing similarities between compound and crossbow. Sorry if you were offended by that statement. I was responding to someone saying crossbow hunters shouldn't be referred to as bow hunters. Sorry if you took offense.
Please dont push your xgun agenda here. Xbows suck. So many are embarrassed and ashamed of themselves, the either lie or omit they truth when they use one.
Brotsky, nails it !
Having hunted many years I can recall near open access to farms, logging co. land etc, easy to get permission to hunt. No longer so.
Juquomo,
Is dead on regarding the comments and lack of acceptance of the compound as a "Real Bow". I recall going to a compound bow in the early 70's with the criticism being far worse than the current anti crossbow. Then again maybe my memory is a little faded.
Bowriter,
Recall the mindset of the simplicity in shooting the long bow or re-curve bow. IMO,The more technology removes the simplicity / relaxation of just shooting a bow does not bode well for a "primitive" sport. It is a sad state of affairs when one holds himself as a better or more ethical hunter, sportsman, based solely on his equipment.
IMHO, Archery will never die. Hunting YTBD ?
I'm not offended. I just don't like inaccuracies to go unchallenged. No one is holding at full draw for several minutes and then killing with any reliability. Guys are drawing 70 lb bows. They're holding 30 lbs+ at least, or else they will spontaneously drawn down. If you hold a 70 lb bow at 20 lbs, you will draw down even though the letoff will allow it, because your muscles fatigue and there is variance to how hard you're holding. How long can you hold a 30 lb longbow at full draw and still retain form and shoot accurately?
Honestly, I don't think I can hold even my 85% letoff bow for a minute and make an accurate shot. And it is only a 60 pound bow. I draw when I know I am going to shoot within seconds and my body is in a position to make the shot. To draw early IMO would be dumb anyways. You don't know which way the animal is going to go, so you might have to then let down and draw again or move on the stand at full draw to follow the animal. More movement to be detected.
You guys sure do like to argue on here a lot anymore. I swear, Bowsite is getting about as bad as Archery talk! That's why I seldom ever post on here anymore.
There are so many "Bowhunting is dead. The sky is falling." threads as of late. There is usually a common denominator poster wise in those threads, threads which seem to get added to every state board. If I listened to what I am reading, I'd sell my bow (compound) and tell my son to give it up and find better things to do. However, I just choose to hunt and spent time with my family and friends in the woods and not worry about what others are using as their weapons. My times in the woods continue to be precious regardless of the bowhunting is dead mentality. My son and I each shoot compounds and like gun hunting equally as well. My son shot a smaller 6pt with his gun this year. No apologies coming. I swear that some people just can't be happy and look at the positive things in life. It must suck to always be so miserable.
I haven't seen a decline in hunters here in NM I can tell you that. Still hard to draw a tag. I'd think if it really were true, tags would be easier to draw?
I think there are some differences between the compound revolution and the crossbow revolution. When compounds came on the scene was a time when overall hunting was growing and in many areas deer herds were on the increase. More land was also available to hunters. This coupled with the facts technology such as computers did not compete with our time, youth sports programs were less intense, rural values were more prevalent and hunting more socially acceptable, meant compounds were able to be a very effective archery and overall hunter recruitment tool. A real positive to hunting, archery and game management.
In the above paragraph, none of this is as true during the crossbow revolution. Crossbows are simply another advancement in making killing easy. Crossbows are not a recruitment tool other than moving more hunters from other seasons and into the general archery seasons. No net hunter recruitment, in fact culturally ended bowhunting in the mind of some supportive voters who believed bowhunters hunted the hard way.
I will add that my son this year was able hunt a 9 foot stand in an open bottomland slough so I instructed him to draw early if he could.He held draw for three minutes as the 160" whitetail weaved in quarter to 15 yards before getting broadside.
This was wide open country and drawing early maybe wasn't paramount but on a trophy animal why take a chance if you can do it.Its an advantage sometimes but not most times imo.
I have to laugh at those that think there are "less hunters" today than there were yesterday. Come hunt with me on public land and you will see things differently, regardless of what statistics pin head bureaucrat's numbers say...
^^^ my take on the hunter number's thing is that there might not be less total hunters, but there has been a shift in demographics. Growing up I knew families who hunted for food because dad's 65hr/wk job didn't pay enough to keep the family fed. It was common to see low income kids hunting all the time. The cost of leasing, tags, steel shot, bows, etc has driven these people out of the hunting population. 15yrs ago our community had a ton of kids who hunted, now it's only a handful. Leasing has effectively pushed low income and young people out of private land and onto public... or out of hunting all together. I believe that the true danger to hunting is when our old and middle aged hunters start to die out. They will not be replaced at a 1 to 1 ratio. The general youth will spend their money on other interests and leave the majority of the hunting land leased up by outfitters and well off individuals who aren't content with the 1000 acre lease they already have and gobble up the next 1000 that comes up, then the next 1000, and so on (until they start shooting 150's every yr.).
I think we can all agree that there are some areas already too crowded with hunters. Not certain more gun hunters becoming archery hunters with crossbows will solve this. Crossbows, although not a new hunter recruitment tool certainly shift the hunter population dynamics from various seasons and regions.
As I said, there are huge advantages.
"I will add that my son this year was able hunt a 9 foot stand in an open bottomland slough so I instructed him to draw early if he could.He held draw for three minutes as the 160" whitetail weaved in quarter to 15 yards before getting broadside. This was wide open country and drawing early maybe wasn't paramount but on a trophy animal why take a chance if you can do it.Its an advantage sometimes but not most times imo "
I think the whole debate over crossbows comes down to 1 simple question "How have crossbows affected hunting for you?"
For me crossbows have been nothing but positive. I'd say I have gained from crossbows, so I love them.
If crossbows have been nothing but negative for you or they have caused you to loose something hunting related, then I can't blame you for hating them - I probably would too.
It would seem many here would say (if they are honest) that crossbows have had no effect on hunting for them, they simply hate them due to an anti-crossbow philosophy or the perception they crossbows will cause then to loose something at some point.
And of course that's OK too as we're all entitled to our experiences & the resulting opinions.
When the poor man can't hunt anymore because he works six days a week and the nearest public land is a long drive and crowded with others like him, his kids grow up to be non- hunters. When residents of a state can't hunt without driving hours to overcrowded areas but nonresidents can afford to with leases, again, their kids become non-hunters. How do you think they will vote someday on referendums concerning hunting? There is the future of all hunting. I am fortunate to live in a state that is a property tax state where landowners get a huge break called "current use" for keeping land open. Leasing is nonexistant and a small deer population makes it ludicrus. None of us on this site will see the end of hunting, but for our grandkids, it could be iffy. My grandfather told me that when he was a kid, hunting was for the rich or the very poor. The rich hunted, the poor and working stiff poached. That could be where we are headed. Who knows.
I don't recall the state, but some time ago I read an article whereas the conservation department conducted a study of the decline in hunting. The #1 reason was the lack of a decent place to hunt. The #2 reason, with older hunters, was nobody to hunt with.
The advancements in technology have allowed this ' everyone's a bowhunter ', come to be and it directly relates to access issues to both private AND public land. Landowners/ranchers invest more into the archery season than the damn cattle!
Most here seem to agree that access is HUGE, because it is, it's not the only issue but it may be the biggest issue we face, right up there with the degradation of the family structure and just all out disconnection of humans and the natural world.
There are some issues which can be controlled by hunters, others are impossible.
Even in Northeast Wisc. you better own land or know someone who does or your not hunting . County land around here you get run off by all the little people squirrel hunting .
