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The DNA testing has also demonstrated that Stone sheep are a hybrid between Dall sheep and the Rocky Mountain Bighorn!

There are true stone sheep in the south central part of the Yukon and of course with the exception of the extreme NW corner of BC, their sheeep are all Stones. I suspect that as the word gets out the price of a true stone sheep hunt will go even higher as many hunters who once thought they had a "Grand Slam" realize that they are a ram short....

Informative post,Steve

The outfitter that I was hunting with said that they only begin to see color (Dark) on their Dall sheep about 10 years ago. Now almost half of the Dall rams have color. The ram I took had a considerable amount of color on his legs, rump, and stomach.

I think it was Dennis Campbell that said a true white sheep will be a thing of the past within the next 20 years. I think he is probably correct.

Please direct us to the source of your information. I would sincerely appreciate it.

As for: "The DNA testing has also demonstrated that Stone sheep are a hybrid between Dall sheep and the Rocky Mountain Bighorn!"

I'm not buying any of that line.

HH, I already have a copy for you and Janet if you pm me an address.

One is in "Molecular Ecology" and one was puplished in "Journal of Evolutionary Biology".

Roger, I suspect that what you read was either one of those I have or confused "stone" with "Fannins"????

RamDreamer: The hybridization is omething that happened in an area that was isolated, as in an island of land surrounded by glaciers or "Glacial Refugia". The hybridization was an event that occurred thousands of years ago.

Remember, although these studies were done with mtDNA; DNA is admissible in court as proof positive!

Since color (non-white) in dalls is dominant, once some becomes "genetically available" and if there is nothing to select against it, then color is what we will and are getting!

I'm keeping MY Fannin as a Stone ;~). I can't afford to go after a true one!

I sent you a PM and will mail you a copy to scan so we can let "the boys" see the publications first-hand.

PB,

Sure there is interpretation involved and a specific level determination isn't the only thing to be garnished here although my initial thoughts are that a new species designation of "Ovis stonei" (italics intended) might not be all that unlikely!

Like I mentioned earlier, most of these individuals can be identified by mtDNA to one unique mountain range. They even were able to detect an "illegal" harvest that was in the mix.

Sandbrew

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/david_coltman/uploads/pdf/JEB2005b.pdf

http://www.nwtwildlife.com/Publications/JournalPublications/pdfdocuments/Worley_2004_GeneticStuctSheep

That is it Sandbrew, thanks. Now we don't need to do it the old fashioned way by snailmail and scanners!

The second link above is incomplete. Here is a link to the abstract with a link to download a .pdf:

http://www.nwtwildlife.com/Publications/JournalPublications/gates1.htm

The Preble's Meadow Jumping Mouse ain't got nuthin' on the Greenish Warbler (link provided).

So just what is a species anyway?

Appletree

Is it possible natural selection is causing darker dall sheep to me prevalent since the white coats stand out at a distance to all hunters wolves included?

It's going to be a tough sell.....but I'm going to try to convince the wife I need to hunt Dall sheep before all the white ones are gone. ;-)

Sandbrew

As an "ex" paleontologist, I know that what I believe to be differentiation at the species level is perhaps a bit different than the definitions I always saw in print. Of course I only ever had hard-tissue morphology to go by.

I don't believe that it is entirely infeasible/unrealistic to have two closely related species that can interbreed and produce a viable offsprinf for one. Most definitions preclude that option.

Oh yeah, since you brought it up HH.....likely that CA bighorns and deserts may be a bit more cosely related than earlier suspected versus closest link to O. canadensis.

Yes, all beautiful critters and they even become more facinating to many of us when we learn and understand more about their life-history!

I am now convinced that we will continue to see more and more fannin coloration in ranges that have a link to where fannin coloration is being seen today and it is already proving out. That would include the Tannana Uplands of Alaska.

I don't think there is a link between the Brooks Range and other sheep range other than a couple hundred miles of black spruce bogs and these genetic studies alreay indicate that much smaller distances pose a barrier.

HH, will mail a copy to you today.

I suspect you got it backwards (again?).

I suspect the larger, more aggressive bighorn did the "tapping".....and pay attention, she was a dall, well at least at first!

And I think most everyone knows about the "fannin" sheep in the upper Charley River country and up the Kandik and the Nation.

Some of those eastern AK sheep have enough gray in them that they would certainly "pass" for real Fannins, were they located somewhere else.

Pete

OMG, I am a prophet! I finally saw my first Alaska fannin last week a HUNDRED miles from the Canadian border in the TU! Then the day my pilot picked me up he saw his first 50-60 miles west of the border in the TU!

I have an unloaded pic, not a very good one, but will add soon.

They used to be thought of as a "poor man's Stone's sheep" but are now being marketed more as a unique subspecies that (along with the California bighorn) are needed complete the true "North American Slam".

Whatever they are taxonomically,I think they are the most beautiful North American sheep.

I am now convinced that we will continue to see more and more fannin coloration in ranges that have a link to where fannin coloration is being seen today and it is already proving out. That would include the Tannana Uplands of Alaska.

I don't think there is a link between the Brooks Range and other sheep range other than a couple hundred miles of black spruce bogs and these genetic studies alreay indicate that much smaller distances pose a barrier."

White Mountains, North Brooks seem way too remote to be influenced by Canadian stone herds. I guess we'll see.

I'd bet that the white sheep aren't going anywhere. The only thing really new here is the mitochondrial test result linking the fannin to the dall exclusively. The TU fannin sighting seems perfectly logical (in spite of the distance involved) given the areas proximity to the Yukon.

It is much akin to spotting the occasional mule deer in the Wrangells in Alaska. If a breeding Stone ram gets into an area dominated by dalls the rest is history.

But I read a book a few years ago called "Mapping the Human Genome" and it discusses tracking humans and their geneology through the use of mitochondrial DNA. It is interesting, as they use it to track civilizations of humans on different islands and continents through mtDNA, which is apparently the most ancient type of DNA in a cell and different fthe DNA found in the nucleus of cells that carry the genetics that make you you and among other things are used for IDing a person in a crime etc...

From what I gathered, the time frames that can be looked at by comparing mitochondreal are in the tens of thousands of years type timeframes - which I would guess could show at least some evolutionary link between lots of different species of sheep which assumedly all evolved at some point from a single species if you go back far enough?

But again, I am no expert - just read a book at a Holiday Inn Express one night!

:-)

Nothing has really changed for P&Y or B&C nor Grand Slam acceptance---correct?

Good luck, Robb

Robb, I don't think the recording groups wanna tell some one (a bunch of hunters) that ummm, no you don't have a slam like you thought, you have two Dalls, one is just a gray color phase. Now go get your Stone..... Guarantee they will resist!

Thanks, good logic.

Good luck, Robb