lol...you need to find a better proshop. he outright lied to you.
let me not get into to many specifics here, but do you think that professional level target archers use.006? and if they don't ...why do think they don't.
they don't..001. how far off as a variable.
A guy who shoots a 56x 299 average in league, might drop to a 45x 298 average by dropping from .001 arrows to .006 arrows.
What's far more important is spine consistancy.IMO. I shoot as well or better with .006 Carbon Tech whitetails as I do with .001 Gold Tip Pros.
Personally ... I "ALWAYS" want my equipment to be better than I can ever be. This accomplishes a few things #1. I "know" my practice is making me a better archer because I never have to consider "equipment" when I solve a problem ... it's always about form. #2. When I get into the woods, I never doubt my rig. NOTHING about equipment creeps into my mind. #3. Just in case I accidentally "put it all together" on one shot ... the equipment won't mess up my "perfect shot." LOL
You are basically correct in that the arrow gets better as the price increases. BUT, the shooter DOES NOT get better as the price increases.
p.s. a target shooter wouldn't shoot gold tips to begin with :)
Your pro shop did not lie to you. He is being the pro that you want him to be by not trying to sell you something you don't need. Thread after thread, SERB knows all and puts down everyone else and thier opinions.
"Your pro shop did not lie to you. He is being the pro that you want him to be by not trying to sell you something you don't need. Thread after thread, SERB knows all and puts down everyone else and thier opinions."
Wow...He's being teh pro that you want him to be? I expect the truth, and thats far from it. I used to shoot the .006 GT's...flew like crap with broadheads even though my bow was tuned properly. Switched to .003, and my groups got better and better. Interesting as it may be, i could always pick out an arrow or two out of the .006 batch that flew a lot worse than the rest... Coincidence, hardly!
Now, if you want to shoot a mechanical head, then the .006 and .003 work just fine either way...lets face it, we're removing the variables given by using fixed blades.
In either case, i see your point...he may not need .001, but lets call a spade a spade...
So what is the current group size Moose is shooting? Let's say it's 3" at 20 yards. So, as a professional, you are going to recommend to one of your customer that he spend $100 on a dozen new arrows, and he can expect to see a 2" group instead? You won't have customers for very long. Again, as stated above, the average shooter will not see this difference. There are a ton of other variables that effect his group size that I would be looking at before suggesting that he buy new arrows. But, you must know Moose, his abilities, how his equipment is tuned, and every little of piece of information that his pro probably knows about him... I trust the local pro over some guys on a forum telling me to throw money at the issue... I also never said that .001 arrows are not better quality than .006 arrows, I said his pro shop is not trying to sell him something he doesn't need.
"Interesting as it may be, i could always pick out an arrow or two out of the .006 batch that flew a lot worse than the rest... Coincidence, hardly!"
You can do this with any make of arrow, even the best. I will refer to the above comments that spine is more of an issue than straightness. You haven't played with enough arrows if you haven't seen this. With this said, many guys think GT have terrible spine. I happen to shoot GT Pro's and Hunters and even if the spine isn't the best, it's better than I can shoot. They both shoot in the same group for me, but I'm probably not as good of a shot as you. 5" groups at 40 yards with broadheads is good enough for me.
"Now, if you want to shoot a mechanical head, then the .006 and .003 work just fine either way...lets face it, we're removing the variables given by using fixed blades."
Oh, I see. So field tips, mechanicals, and fixed blades fly differently with the same arrow? And your bow is tuned. Uh-huh. This statement proves that to not be true. Or are you saying I need straighter arrows to shoot equal fixed blade groups? If you can't group field points and broadheads, you need to start at step one in Easton's tuning guide before telling someone else to buy better arrows to improve thier shooting.
second. go to national tournment and see what their shooting....it's not .006 gold-tips. in fact you'll never even see .001 gt pro hunters.
what you will find is a whole slew of x10 series, and x7 series easton arrows....and by the way the straightness factors on any of the series i spoke of is between .001-.0015.
thats not a know it all comment. those are facts.
now, as was mentioned earlier...spine difference between arrow is an issue big time. gt's have terrible variances in their spines 70-100 when i used to shoot them. that does effect great shooting to be sure. more than .006-.001 some will attest to. there are certainly better spine matched arrows on the market than gt's. carbon tech for one. there's others.
you guys also, have veered into the waters of how much it could really vary. to a great shooter. alot. to a guy who puts up a paper plate on a wall a@ 20 yards hits it 6 times straight and is ready to hunt...not at all. so how do you know how great a shooter the man who asked the question is? i assume he wants facts based on the assumption he a great shot...not a 9" paper plate shot, a (x) shooter.
so back to the original question....who did i bad mouth...the guy who lied that there is NO difference...or did i insult some people here who don't have the shooting ability TOO see a difference.
i gave the man the benifit of the dought he can shoot lights out. most of you gave him the IT'S GOOD ENOUGH, BECAUSE THOSE ARROWS ARE BETTER THAN YOU CAN SHOOT ANYWAY BENIFIT.
am i wrong?
by the way huting habit $100 arrows being used by top level shooters? where? $200-$250 sounds more like it.
for those of you who agreed with what i said, and say. thank you...your not siding with me, but in fact, being objective. for those who feel strenght bashing the shark after reading this thread...shame on you.
His posted 5" groups at 40 tells me he wouldn't last long on the tournament line....maybe the first end, maybe not. I'm guessing somebody peed in his cheerios this morning! Nothing like slamming a guy for stating the truth. The pro shop owner lied.....or the story was relayed to us incorrectly!!
Bottom line; A plain and simple fact: There WILL BE A DIFFERENCE IN GROUP SIZE! Whether Huntinhabit shoots GT pro or hunter or Easton XX75: They just ain't the same as x10 or any other arrow built to exacting tolerances, and that .006 DOES make a difference, no matter the brand. Just because a shooter may not see it, doesn't mean it isn't there!
dennisomfs: "Do you really think that in the heat of the moment in a hunting situation that the animal you shoot is going to notice a 1/2" difference in impact point??
YES!!!!! 1/2" could make a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE!!
I accept your coments...my bow is perfectly tunned, so when field tip and mechanicals are you shooting 1-2 inch groups at 40...i have a good base to go from when comparing that to my broadhead. Now, when shooting a .003, my broadhead group are around 3 to 4 inches at 40...6+ with my left over .006s. Only variable that changed was the straightness of the arrow...hence, straigter arrows fly better, which equals better groups.
But, like i said before, i hear what your saying...my only concern lies with a person who bought a dozen .006s and cant get his bh to fly bc of the arrow straightness...the old saying hold true, you get what you pay for...hehe, at least so we hope.
Moose,
The difference in group size will depend on your shooting abilities and consistencies in your shooting. Your experience may differ from mine, or others who've commented here. Myself, I pretty much stick with .003 sticks, but have shot some .006 arrows. Myself, I did notice a difference between the two, but it seemed to only manifest itself when I was shooting broadheads. BH's definitely held tighter groups at 20-60 yards when I shot .003 arrows. I think the BH groups when using .006 shafts most likely suffered more from bad form on my part than from the difference in the shaft straightness. What I mean by this is that ANY arrow tipped with a BH is more susceptible to flight problems from form issues than a FP tipped arrow. The slightest form problem is magnified by the BH, therefore, the slight difference in straightness will be magnified when shooting BH's.
sorry for the long post, but I will just say that I will not hunt with any arrow not .003 or better. That is my confidence level.
Serb, I'm sorry, you didn't deserve the comment. I rarely fight with anyone here because I've learned it's a no win situation. Right or wrong. You've just posted some things lately that come off as being a real know it all with money to burn, and I pounded back. I'm sure you're a good guy, and don't mean your posts the way I read them. I apologize.
Telling a guy his shop 'LIED' to him is a bit harsh though. Usually a lie by a shop pro would imply they are trying to get him to buy something, where in this case they are telling him to save his money. More than likely the shop is trying to help him...
"His posted 5" groups at 40 tells me he wouldn't last long on the tournament line"
LOL. I have no desire to shoot tourneys anymore. I got out a LONG time ago. Yeah, I had three of the same newest bow, scopes with 4 power lenses, 4' stabilizers, spent 3 hours a night 6 days a week at the range, busting ACC's every weekend, etc... I used to be a good shot, but I got over that addiction and now enjoy my life. I'm also not ashamed of my shooting and will never exagerate my abilities. I shoot to hunt, and couldn't care less about a 'score' anymore. Oh, and I work for living, someone pees in my Cheerios every morning. 8*)
Bottom line - Yes, there is a difference for top shooters. Depending on your abilities and other factors, it may or may not make a difference. I get the feeling that Moose is the average guy like me, and money isn't growing on his lawn. When you're ready for new arrows, consider upgrading, but don't feel inferior because you don't.
Also, other variables such as weight and/or spine tolerances may be accounting for the group size more than the straightness.
In other words, an arrow that is straighter may also have less spine variation, or maybe the straighter arrows had more spine variation. Unless you are actually measuring (controlling) ALL the variables, you’re really just guessing as what to attribute to which variable.
My guess: 1
At the shot and at the impact they bend, after that that almost perfect tolerance probably isn't so perfect anymore.
a gentlemen made the clearest and most accurate statement possible. shoot through a hooter shooter and the results would be clear as day. put a broadhead the the machine and the difference is huge between .006, and .001 arrows.
dpoes anyone even check their spines on their arrows? i have a feeling most here do not.
do you even know how? this question is for the forum.
I've never heard anybody squawking about having "TOO" good of a bow, or squawking about his Swarovski binoculars are better than he can use, or his arrow are TOO good for him. Ever hear a Zeiss owner saying he wished he had a pair of Tascos? A SilverFlames owner complaining? Yet ... you read plenty of threads where somebody is complaining about a lesser quality product or lesser quality piece of equipment which has fail him. "NOW" ... he's researching for what he; in my opinion; should have bought right from the start ... higher quality and the accompanying better performance.
Buying quality has many rewards; from the obvious, to the unexpected and ... right down to, and including the seldom mentioned "pride of ownership." I know it's not "politically correct" to say it out loud; but you actually have a "right" to be proud of your Vectrex, Guardian, Drenalin, etc, etc. Personally, for example; when somebody mentions bows; my mind goes to my Allegiance; or mentions arrows, I think of my Carbon Techs and then I feel a sort of self satisfaction and self confidence in/or with them. Somebody mentions “sights” and my mind goes to my Trophy Ridge Matrix ... and something I “don’t” feel so good about. LOL
Buy the best quality you can afford ... even if you don’t know all the reasons why.
Scott
gt prohunters which i have used in the past had real bad differences in spine. 70-100 on the scale. thats all, not the target series. i still don't know why they don't do a select series in the prohunters. cull them to more exact tolerances. they have a great arrow other then that.
for hunting i shoot 3-71 a/c/c, for target i like the easton x10 series.
Carbons are either straight or broke. If you are a great violin player you would use a Strativarious but could still make a Sears sound decent. Tourniments (out to 80 , hunting out to 40) Milt
Now then, you want to improve your group size? Look into Bemans or Eastons. You'll get what you pay for, and if you're doing your end right, those groups will shrink.
http://www.archers-friend.com/archers-friend-spine-testers.html
Do you really shoot X-10's for target shooting? What kind of recurve do you have? Surely you don't use them for indoor spot shooting with a compound bow?
Lets see a picture of your arrows, (not an ad photo)
Arrows straight to within 0.001. I lump those right into the same bucket as Scentloc, fancy detailed camo patterns and anything else that can be categorized as "marketing Hype" or "Yet another way to seperate a fool and his money".
Some folks haven't yet figured out that manufacturers HIRE folks who sit in their offices all day and do nothing except think of ways to get you to part with your money.
Arrows straight to within 0.001. BWWWAAAAHHHHH!!!!
Not all brands are created equal, I'll put a factory packed dozen CT whitetails at .006 up against a dozen factory packed GT pro hunters at .001 out of a Hooter Shooter; and I'll come home with padded pockets. ;)
jeff, as for what i meant, was nobody shoots gt prohunters that are also .001. not the brand. the model.
gt prohunters which i have used in the past had real bad differences in spine. 70-100 on the scale. thats all, not the target series. i still don't know why they don't do a select series in the prohunters. cull them to more exact tolerances. they have a great arrow other then that.
for hunting i shoot 3-71 a/c/c, for target i like the easton x10 series.
what the heck did i write now that your trying to read it right.
x10's, or x10 series, which one is it rainman?
you say you tested all these bows at your shop. which shop. the name and city please. you say you sell elite , bowtech, hoyt, and mathews. what shop?
"Arrows straight to within 0.001. I lump those right into the same bucket as Scentloc, fancy detailed camo patterns and anything else that can be categorized as "marketing Hype" or "Yet another way to seperate a fool and his money".
"Some folks haven't yet figured out that manufacturers HIRE folks who sit in their offices all day and do nothing except think of ways to get you to part with your money. "
to this i say, do you have some trophy photos, link them to your name please. i'm sure we would all love to know that you and your non-tech hunting skills, have actually killed something other than your keyboard keys.
sounds like you just don't like to spend money, and blame those that can.
post away howard hill. you probably use a self made bow too, lets see it in the photo's.
SS, go back and re-read your posts. "I shoot acc's for hunting and x10's for targets."
maybe if someone were to read things more clearly, and then research the easton arrows that are on the market, they could save themselves looking like a wanna-be.
http://www.archers-friend.com/to-build-an-arrow-spine-tester.html
Page Lake Archery
25991 co rd 1
Hancock, MN 56244
Mon. - Fri. 4pm-8pm, weekends by appointmesnt (320) 392 5611
I just hope to hell the guy at least got his question answered.
as for the mathews bashes you post so often. you don't even sell them. it's what i figured if you were indeed a proshop.
but i already knew your not a dealer.
Besides, I thought this thread was about arrows, not Mathews.???
DOH!!! don't ya just hate it when you forget what thread you're on.
jeez this is getting comical.
dot the i's, and cross the t's.
(just want to hear it for a THIRD time so i dont forget)
High end arrow? They don't meet your standard for quality or price, how can they be 'high end'?
ok here you go.
high end
a/c/c, obsession, full metal jckets, gt prohunter, maxima hunter, and more of them.
low end
terminator, sst, gt expedition do i need to keep going.
high end means dollar amount. not quality. i don't shoot the low ends, because of straightness, and then i cull from the barrel to get the spines the same. but thats my way.
"if your just yacking to hear yourself"
Have you read your own posts all over this forum? LOL!!!!!! That is definitely my favorite SERB quote to date.
So when I say "$100 arrows" that is translated into "$100 arrows being used by top level shooters? where? $200-$250 sounds more like it."
But when you say "high end arrows" and "high end means dollar amount" it means GoldTip Pro Hunters.
Gotcha. I'm with ya Serb, LOL! And yes, I understand you're going to tell me next that $250 arrows are "pro level", which I somehow implied. This is just too funny.
Serb... "to this i say, do you have some trophy photos, link them to your name please. i'm sure we would all love to know that you and your non-tech hunting skills, have actually killed something other than your keyboard keys.
sounds like you just don't like to spend money, and blame those that can.
You asked where my trophy photos are? Well, to be honest, it doesn't matter enough to me to post any here. My self image as a bowhunter does not hinge upon any need to post my hunt photo's here. Nor is the validity of my opinion on arrow shaft straightness related to the number of photo's not posted. What a bizzare little connection you tried to make there.
You did get one thing right. I try to hunt as non-tech as possible. The last deer I shot with a compound was about 12 yrs ago. It was an emotionless kill. I needed more of a challenge to my hunting. So now I enjoy the challenge of taking deer with a recurve, without sights, without scentloc. I'll admit to using camo so I probably should back off that. I'm not knocking compounds either. Hunt with what you want to use brother.
As far as spending money...well let's not go there. There's no need for each of us to post our W-2's now is there? In the digital world, anyone can claim to have money can't they.
Here's my take. Folks tend to want to argue the "Buy the straightest" arrow argument by saying "Hell, that's what the PRO's use". Pull up a chair son...Here's a lesson in real world economics.
How much money do you think an average, no, no, make that a TOP PRO shooter makes in a year OFF HIS TOURNAMENT WINNINGS? The answer? He couldn't pay his airfare off his tournament winnings. If a Pro won every friggin tournament he entered, could he make $100K a year? $100K a year ain't dick if you're traveling every weekend, living in a hotel every weekend, feeding yourself in restaurants etc... Pro shooters make their money off what? All together now: Endorsement Money. And who decides to pay Pro Shooters endorsement money? That's right, the Tournament Sponsers. And why do companies even sponsor tournaments? If you answered "Cause that's one of the ways that they convince people to buy their products", then go to the head of the class. Pro shooters don't even GET to decide what they are going to shoot. The arrow shaft company writing the ENDORSEMENT check decides what arrow a Pro is going to shoot. And is the arrow shaft company going to ask Mr. Pro shooter if he wants to shoot the $49/doz, straight to within 0.006" shafts? If you guessed no...move to the head of the class. The arrow shaft company is going to tell Mr. Pro Shooter to shoot the $250/doz, straight to within 0.001" super duper "you can't miss with these" shafts. And since Mr. Pro Shooter NEEDS the endorsement check (NEEDS cause he aint makin enough off the winnings)he'll shoot what ever Mr. Arrow Shaft company check writer tells him to. Is Mr. Pro Shooter going to admit this? If you answered "No, cause he'd look like a sellout", then move to the head of the class. Mr. Pro Shooter will publicly proclaim "I shoot the "you can't miss with these shafts" because, well, uh, well, cause you can't miss with these shafts, that's why.
Now why does Mr. arrow shaft maker want Mr. Pro shooter to shoot the $250/doz. shaft? If you guessed "Cause Joe Bowhunter will see Mr. Pro shooter shooting "You can't miss with these shafts" and buy a boatload of them", then move to the head of the class. And why else does Mr. Arrow Shaft Maker want Joe Bowhunter to buy $250/doz "You can't miss with these shafts". If you answered "Cause there's a trainload of profit in selling $250/doz "You can't miss with these shafts", then go to the head of the class. Is there a trainload of profit selling $49/doz shafts? No, there's some, but not a trainload.
Guys....as much as you want to believe that businesses are altruistic and here only to sell you what's in your best interest to buy...well, it ain't happening. Not in your wildest dreams. Businesses (yes, archery companies are businesses) are in business to make money. As much as they can. Why? Cause they are under pressure from the Board of Directors and the stockholders to do so. The job of the marketing group is to figure out ways to get you to part with your hard earned money. Make money and everyone is happy. And if they can convince you to put more profit in the till, then guess what. They will.
Now if you got the coin to spend on $250/doz. arrows, go for it. Spend your money however it makes you happy.
But apply a little critical thinking. Just be aware of why $250/doz arrows cost $250/doz. It ain't cause their 0.005" straighter.
I have one of those guys too. And my guy has "bought" his way onto several hunting TV shows. Too funny, to hear him brag about his high dollar toys and how good they make him.
i'll tell you what i do, i own company's. i develope land, and build custom homes. i employ 50 or so people, and have a roofing division thats one of the top 20 in the state. oh yea, and i hunt for a hobby. thats it.
danz custom homes llc., visionary developers llc, and a few other things. i'm 41 years old, played professional hockey for 3 years in europe. and been married to the same great gal for 17 years. i own a little more than 3000 hunting acres of extremely managed whitetail country, and some houses around the country.
so don't go there. others here have seen what i'm about. yea, there's bs'ers here....but your not talking to one of them.
i don't need to hide behind a computer screen. danz custom homes.com has a website and your welcomed to see.
but it makes me feel good that he now has one of the largest shops in central wisconsin, one of the biggest leagues in central wisconsin, and i was able to help him by being a loyal customer.
you could laugh behind the backs of all the customers you want to. whatever. but mine are true friends and constant companions. we hunt the west at times together.
enough said.
"otto, how old are you. what do you do for a living?
Really Serb, I don't understand your fascination with me or what I do or how much money I make or how good a shot I am. Really, it's not pertinate to a discussion on arrow straightness.
I'm glad you've done well for yourself. You should feel fortunate that God has chosen to bless you as he has.
i'm not some young man with dreams being lived on the net.
Hey Serb, NOBODY LIKES YOU!!!
I hardly EVER post on this site even though i read it every day. But I just can't stand it anymore. Sorry Pat, Take a star from me if you must, but this clown needs to be put in his place!!
I guess it's true, you can buy a diploma, but you can't buy knoweldge.
did i say this or you?
like i said. wrong guy.
i say we stay civil let by gone's , be by-gone's and move on.
i'm done here.
"I'm done here" PLEASE GOD, LET THAT BE TRUE!!
28" span
All shaft blanks come out of the machine, then are sorted by a series of measuring devices. They are sorted by straightness, weight, and spine. (not neccessarily in that order)
I have a DVD that shows the Carbon Express factory at work. And once you look around the fact that it's a CX marketing DVD, the rest of the info is pretty neat.
You sound like a golden pass ,Like me. If we have enough senority , lets you and me sign off.
Milt
some do, and some don't as the post will show.
let's just agree , to disagree on that statement. huh
mdjunior, great work.
in central wisconsin, i do only specs. stopped working for customers a few years ago. now it's mostly buy land, sell land. and build a home on a few here and there.
the market here that i have to bring homes out to the market at around $120. per sq. foot of living space plus the land. it's alot different than when i had a divison in kenilworth il. here's a pic. of the average 240k home.
Glad to hear that the Maxima does NOT need to be trimed from both ends because I doubt if the shop makeing them did that.
I would reccomend Carbon Express Terminators int he 4560 spine. These have been my favortie hunting arrows in the past. I have bought selects and the regulars and I can't out shoot the difference.
As far as you guys who say there is a "significant" differnce between .006 arrows and .001, you probably haven't shot very much.
I can't say I'm a pro, but I can confidently say I'm better than average. Right now on Blue and white my average this winter is 300-53 x's. Thats alternating between my xx78 SS 2315 and Carbon Express Terminators 4560's. I also got 2nd place at the 2006 IBO world trophy championships (HC) with a 398 and 16x's, using Dick's sporting good specials, Blackhawk "monsterbuck hunters," (.006 straightness), and It was the only 3-D shoot I shot last year.
Many3-D pro's shoot easton Fatboy and Lightspeed both have a .005 straightness.
Seems as though it has more to do with the shooter then anything
Just my .002... JK
