For the Trad guys- 2 blade vs 3 blade
Elk
Been kickin this around for a while. I'm working on some new arrows, and cant decide on broadheads. I usually use 2 blades for deer, although last yr i decided to try the woodsmans. A little tough to get as sharp as I wanted, and seems they didnt hold an edge long in the quiver before needing touched up. The other concern is the needle point tip when sharpened, Im concerned about it bending over if it hits bone.
2blade heads definitely have no penetration issues, but withthe thicker hide and fat layer on elk, I'm concerned with bloodtrails.
Im setting up these arrows to be around 200 gr on the front end,with a total weight of around 625-650. With that, even the 3 blades should have no problems, and cut a bigger hole, thus better wound channel and bloodtrail(hoepfully)
Any thoughts or suggestions? I cant decide.
I like the low profile woodsmens, just file the tip down a bit to get rid of the needle point. No problem getting through an elk if you hit them right.
I buried a 630 grain arrow in my first elk (bull) last season using a relatively low poundage bow (48#) using a 125 grain magnus stinger (2 blade). The arrow totally disappeared from view, but almost broke the hide on the far side (left ham). The arrow angled through from tight behind the right shoulder.
I'll be watching this thread as I too am considering filing a chisel point on my woodsman elites.
Shoot the VPA Terminators. 200 gr has chisel tip as does all of 160-300 grain Terminators, for that very reason. Toughest broadhead on the market. Rick Barbee here on Bowsite killed 19 hogs with the same broadhead. Check out the many other threads. One piece solid precision CNC machined from high carbon tool grade steel, heat treated and through hardened to 50 Rockwell. 100% spin tested and flies true. Bowsiters get free shipping on them from the linked webstore.
forgot to post the webstore coupon code for free shipping....enter: bowsite
Would agree with the Terminators. I used them to take a moose and quite a few bears not to mention my share of deer. Always complete pass throughs out of my longbow as well as big holes. Great BH's and easy to get sticky sharp.
Every penetration test I have done and I have proved it to my friends the Woodsman Elite penetrate as good and in some cases better than a two blade stinger. Not taking anything away from magnus they are a awesome head also easy to sharpen and are my choice for a 2-blade. Woodsmans do take more work for me to get them shaving sharp but it gives me something to do when I'm watching tv. I have always been a 3-blade fan I am using the woodsman elite and don't plan on stopping anytime soon. Widow
I managed 38 animals with my recurves consisting of Elk, Whitetail, Goat, Hog & Black Bear. Always a MA3 blade. I did take a couple deer with Bear heads & the bleeder blade too. Anyway, no problem with penetration & mostly wood arrows. Bear was 55#s & Elk was 55#s with others being 60#s..
A/A & you should be concerned with blood trails! You are on the right track! Much of the country elk hang out in is thick & brushy, in many cases ones do not have the luxury to see much of the ground to follow tracks alone or drops of blood on the ground & rocks. There are many cases where we rely on blood on the brush, leaves, needles, tree trunks, etc. When this is the case 3-blades trump 2 blades easily!
Wound channel is huge for blood on the ground loss! We rely on 3 & 4 bladed heads when using trad gear as they have proved their worth & penetration has not been an issue for us with arrows weighing in at 490 grn to 550 grns. out of longbows & recurves in the 55# to 60# range.
Here are some photos of 3 & 4 blade results!
This one was with 60# recurve & 4-blade Scirroco!
ElkNut1
This one is with a 3-bladed Woodsman head! 55# 500grn arrow!
ElkNut1
This one with a 125 3-bladed Woodsman head. 58# recurve 515 grn arrow!
ElkNut1
This one with a 3-bladed SnufferSS 125grn 55# 500grn arrow!
ElkNut1
This one with a 125grn 3-bladed SnufferSS 55# bow 495grn arrow. Notice in nearly all photos that tracking elk tracks would be very difficult! Trackable Blood loss is important!
ElkNut1
See if I can get a better photo here of the small photo!
For the record the closest bull was taken at 14 yds & the furthest one was 32 yds.
ElkNut1
Why did Fred Bear invent the Bear Razorhead? Answer this question right and you will know why 3/4 blades are better than two...........most of the time two blades result in very poor blood trails.
I shoot both 2 and 3 blade. 125gr. Magnus II, and 125gr. Snuffers. On deer, I've found no difference. Great blood trails with both. When I went bear hunting I used the Snuffers. Dead in 40 yrds.
For me I will only shoot a magnus 1 with an 1.5" cut best blood trails I have ever seen.
Never killed an Elk but have killed lots of other stuff. Simmons heads leave better blood trails than anything I have ever used.LH
I like the Muzzy phantoms and they have worked well for me on hogs. I use sometimes with the bleeders in and without and have had great bloodtrails either way. I think it is because the phantom is a big two blade head. They really hold an edge long due to the hardened steel they are made from.
Not to add another level of complexity to your dilemma, but you might also consider some of the single bevel two blades like Grizzly and others. Gives the two blade penetration, but the hole cut has an "S" shape caused by the rotation of the head because of the bevel which makes for larger entrance and exit holes than a standard two-blade (also come out of the package with a "chiselled" tip like the Stinger that won't bend or break on bone impacts). I don't have first hand experience, but have seen what single bevels do, and they seem like they would fix the problem of bloodtrails (if indeed there really is a problem).
Additionally, you get great bone splitting capability with a single bevel. I've tested this on wood with my 54# longbow, and it is amazing how effortlessly they split thru even relatively large pieces, while my 70# compound seems to struggle more with the same wood and a standard two-blade.
In the end, whatever you decide on will do the job with a well placed shot.
I am going to use Wensel Woodsman Elite 175 grain this year for elk.My buddy proved to me that they will penetrate as good or better then 2 blade broadheads.In my experence 3 blade leave a better blood trail.
Don't overthink it, I've used 2,3,4 blade heads and they all worked fine, one thing I have NEVER noticed is a difference in the blood trail in relation to the number of blades, the biggest bloode trail I ever saw was with a 160 Grizzly, which is one of the narrowest 2 blades around and it was on an animal with hide about 5 or 6 times thicker than elk. The one VERY important thing is to get an exit wound, two bloods trails are twice as good as one and being the one on the far side is often the lower one, its even more important. Penetration is the one most important thing, multi blade heads are harder to sharpen and in the large amount of penetration tests I did, the difference is dramatic. Some time ago I figured out that a rifleman, chooses his bullet depending on the size and toughness of the animal he is hunting, bowhunters should do the same and use the biggfest head that they are reasonable sure will go ALL the way through the biggest animal that they are likely to get a shot at. There is a whole lot more to it than number of blades, but I have been very happy with the results of using big two blade heads on animals in the elk size range, largely the Magnus 160, but also Zwickey Deltas and Grizzly's.
I'm a big fan of the Woodsman. Sharpens easy. Flys great. The rest is up to the hunter putting the arrow where it needs to be.
In a nutshell, they are all great heads. Shoot the head that you can sharpen the best. Me I love the Razor Caps, I have been a fan of those, since Phil Mueller first came out with them.. Bought out by NAP, made it even better.
I heard that NAP is going to not make them anymore, buisness decision I am sure, why make which does not sell.
Magnus is a great head. The problem with Magnus heads, is that on TV, Nugent gets the worst penetration I have ever seen, why I do not know, because it is a great head.
I am going to try VPA this fall. Love Bear Razor heads, love magnus, not too crazy on Woodsmans and snuffers...........
The guy who shoots MA-3's. Now there is a head, sharpens fast and flys great, that guy is old school.
I also love my Zwickeys...............
shoot what you can sharpen and put in the boiler room and go hunt, life is short..............
best in field
I won't offer an opinion as I don't shoot trad, but will relate a comment that Dave Holt, the author of 'Balanced Bowhunting', once made to me. Dave and I were talking about 2 vs 3 blade heads, and he said something that made a great deal of sense to me. He said "3 blade heads cut 50% more area than a 2 blade head". In other words, if penetration were equal, a 3 blade head will slice more by a substantial margin, leaving a lot of wound to bleed.
I don't know if that makes sense to all of you, but it really did to me.
Dave's comment is easy to understand if you draw a 1" circle, then draw a line thru it and use another color to draw the 120" pattern a 3 blade makes. You can see what he's talking about.
elknuts2, Id have to call Dave Holt out on that one, its sorta true, but there are a whole bunch of clarifiers that need to be attached. A 3 blade does cut 50% more than a 2 blade IF the blades are all the same size and at the same angle. I have Woodsmans 3 blades that are 3/4"(each blade is 1/2" wide) wide and Magnus 160 2 blades that are 1 1/2" wide. The cutting edges are the same length, so a case could be made that the WW's 3 edges do cut 50% more than the 2 on the 160, but those three edges are very close to each other. I also have 2 blade Grizzly's with cutting edges 3 1/4" long, compared to the WW's 2 3/8", blades for a total of 6 1/2" for the Grizzly and 7 1/8" for WW, more for sure, but not close to 50% more and I can guarantee that the Grizzly will penetrate farther, to more and make up for difference. You aren't getting something for nothing with a 3 blade, if it cuts 50% MORE, then it isn't going to penetrate as far.
Another key is your statement about "if it penetrates as far". 3 and 4 blade heads then not to penetrate as well as a 2 blade. Yes they make different holes, but generally not as deep.
LBB
Magnus is a great head. The problem with Magnus heads, is that on TV, Nugent gets the worst penetration I have ever seen, why I do not know, because it is a great head.
Its not a problem with the head! There are a lot of things that effect penetration, weight of the arrow, how fast its going, tuning, diameter of the shaft, sharpness of the head, placement, species etc..
IF PENETRATION IS EQUAL. When have you ever lost game because wound diameter was not enough?. When have you failed because of lack of penetration?. Acouple extra inches of penetration=the third edge all day long and might just get you to the other lung. In and out holes should be the min acceptable.
I understand and agree with what you guys are saying. I was only repeating a comment made by a bowhunter who has put a ton of study into such issues, and written what I still consider to be one of the best books written about bowhunting.
I think that shooting a strong and extremely sharp broadhead is a given, no matter whether 2, 3 or 4 blades, and trad or modern bows. Some things always have to be constant, strong and sharp are two of them.
For my own bowhunting, I've always shot 100 grain Thunderheads, and have gotten clean pass-throughs on elk and shiras moose, but I'm not going to advocate that as the ideal head for a traditional bowhunter. Any way you slice it (pun intended), a pass through from a 3 blade leaves a great bloodtrail, and a short one too if you put the arrow in the right place.
Lots of great comments. i've spent more and a few hours reading the Ashby studies on penetration, as well as taking input from many bowhunters over the years. Ashby's work is 2nd to none, and he clearly prefers 2 blade COC heads. But that said, to say 3 blade heads are somehow inferior, in my opinion is misleading at best. Plenty of critters large and small are taken cleanly with 3 blade heads too.
We all know that a shaving sharp head placed in the right spot will do the job. We also know that our broadheads dont always end up where we wanted them, or where we thought we put them.
Its when they dont , that we have problems. Elk have a far thicker hide and fat layer than deer, and that can cause tissues and fat to close back over a arrow hole, stemming bloodflow. Instead of external bleeding, blood will pool in the chest/abdominal cavity, where it doesnt do us a bit of good as far as tracking goes. The animal still bleeds out, but trailing is greatly hampered.
Elknuts pics are very telling, the elk shot with the 3 blade heads all had excellent bloodflow eternally. I think with the 3 blade cut, it helps cause the tissues to retract a bit more, promoting better external bleeding. Not an absolute, but they sure do a nice job.
Penetration through both lungs is also important. As is penetration after hitting bone.
My setup is similar to elknuts, although my arrows are a bit heavier. 56# longbow, 625 gr arrows. Fully capable of driving an arrow deep.
Im gonna stick with the Woodsmans I have, file a chisel point on them, and use a mill smooth cut file for sharpening. Im picky when it comes to sharp arrows. You can always tell when Im gearing up for a hunt, as all the hair on my right forearm gets shaved off checking broadheads as I sharpen them. ( wife thinks its weird LOL)
The VPA's look like a great head, but a little pricey for me. Thanks to all for the input. Keep 'em sharp.
I have a large mill file that is wider than the Woodsman so that I can place two of the blades flat against it and pull it towards me hitting two blades at once. I then strop it on a piece of thick leather again pulling it towards me. I have a light flat diamond file for field honing.Good hunting.
Things don't always work the way we think they should, in addition to the two blade heads that I use, I have woodsmans, snuffers and Delta four blade (2+2), I bought the Deltas to use on bear which, with fat and hair often don't leave much of a blood trail, what I found out was, that often the blood trail was WORSE, the bleeder blades did their job, BUT the X shaped holes in the hide allowed big wads of fat to extrude and plug the hole like a wad of gum. So I went to using the two blade Deltas on bear and never had that happen again.
Three blade heads leave better blood trails. Two blade heads penetrate better. But then if you catch both lungs either will kill the animal. With the three blade it is easier to track. Thats my experience. But I don't know anything.
Been using the 125gr 3-blade Wensel Woodsman since they came out, won't switch anytime soon. Fly perfect, easy to sharpen, and the bloodtrails have been far better then all the 2-blade heads I used for years.
Shot plenty of deer and elk with 2-blade heads over the years, and they kill the animal just as dead as a 3-blade, but hated the skimpy at best bloodtrails some of them left.
i am with heckman magnus 1 two blade huge hole
60# recurve 540gr cedar arrow
W/ enough horsepower,3 blades for me.I'm partial to the big Snuffer but I shoot 60lbs+ bows. I've killed 2 bulls w/ 2 blades and been on at least half dz trails of elk shot w/ 2 blade heads.Tracking 4 of these elk was a very slow and in some cases a multi day recovery(meat didn't fair well in the days heat).3 elk I've killed w/ Snuffers,the tracking was very breif and short distance.I did shoot a big herdbull w/ a big Snuffer at 35yrds and recovered him 2 days later because of a 1 lung hit.I sure wish I had a 2 blade on that bull.Hit center of ribs w/ a slight quarting away animal.I was shooting a 420+gr arro as well(not smart on my part).
VPA is going to have you covered with the toughest bradheads either way this fall. We are adding a 2 blade. Here's a pic of the first prototypes. The ones in the pic have not been coated or finished sharpened. These are 250, 200 and 175gr. May add a 150 and 125?? Details on Leatherwall.
3 blade. I shoot woodsmans out of 47-51 lb recurves and get routine passthroughs. Shot 2 blade magnus heads for years and killed a lot of deer with them, but I get much better blood trails with the 3 blades and I am somewhat color blind so I need all of the help I can get! The 2 blade cuts more of a slit, and the 3 more of a hole
4 blade Muzzys from 57# longbows and recurves, total arrow weight package between 510-520 gr. I sharpen the trocar tip on a stone to make it as close to "cutting sharp" as possible.
Between my partner and I, we've only killed 60 elk with this and similar setups - partner is using Slick Tricks these days - so we're still trying to figure out if 4 blade heads can really kill elk with such low KE. Will report back after we kill a few dozen more.....
Jaquomo, curiously, which Muzzy 4 blade, the 100 or 125?......That is impressive indeed. And, for the benefit of those that claim the Slick Trick isn't appropriate for stick bow launched arrows, can you give some more details there?
or you could build your own. While google'ing I ran across this How-to Single Bevel Build-a-Long.
Click Click Here to open link in new window.
Roger, I like the 125 for more FOC, and because that's the one I started with when I switched to Muzzys back in the mid-80's. Haven't had a reason to change. I've also killed elk, muleys, and caribou with the 3 blade and it does a great job, too. I just like having that extra cutting edge passing through the animal for marginal shots.
Slick Tricks - my partner shoots a 54# recurve, and they fly like rockets. No real secret. He shoots stuff and it dies.
As far as penetration, I once shot a 4-blade Muzzy through the scapula of a bull on a steep downhill shot(from an old clunky Bighorn recurve), which penetrated both lungs. He died within about 150 yards, and the head made a great 4-blade hole through the bone. I'm not sure a 1,2,or 3 blade broadhead would have killed him any quicker.
This is little more than a religious discussion. One could make the claim that a 2-blade head isn't appropriate because of the drastic reduction in lateral cutting potential, but really it's all a matter of subjective belief. I encourage people to shoot the sharpest fixed-blade head they can tune to fly well, and believe in it. All of the heads mentioned in this thread are good heads for elk as long as they are sharp and fly well.
One disclaimer, my last 3 elk were shot during the now-discontinued three-year "compound experiment", and a couple were killed back in the late '70s with an old used Carrol 4-wheel barebow bought right before the season when my Black Widow broke. (I was in college and didn't have much money...)
So not every single elk we've killed during this great run was killed with a stickbow, but the vast majority were taken with stickbows and 4-blade heads.
Didn't intend to mislead.
3 blades don't fit in my plains quiver. 2 blade Ribtek 190s for me.
