Sorry to hear that. I had a neck fusion (c5/6) about 4 years ago. While not pain free, it's better than it was. I have had other procedures done since (various injections and most recently, radiofrequency ablation of the nerves). I don't know if lumbar fusions are as successful as cervical. And in any case, fusing one level, puts more stress on adjacent levels, which is what I seem to be going through now. I guess you need to just deal with what you currently have, and hope for the best down the road. As you know, there aren't any guarantees with any surgery.
Where do I start? I have had 4 lower back surgeries including a fusion of L3/L4/L5 and it does put pressure on the disks above the fusion. In fact, I have had several injections at the problem level including another round of them three weeks ago. I was at the doctors office again this morning and he set up another MRI for next Wed. morning. It feels like I have a cockle burr in my back when ever I lean left, right, front or backwards. I have had massage, rolfing, chiropractic, lots of needles stuck in me and PT. Nothing helps. Radio Frequency Ablasion did help on my neck but they don't want to do it to my back for some reason. Make sure you have a good surgeon!!!
I am having problems with my neck when I lean my head back it makes my right arm go numb and tingles like a foot when it is asleep. A MRI disclosed that I have 7 bulging disks in my neck and they want to fuse the who thing. Screw that. I will let them fuse the bottom 3 if they go in from the front but no more than that. Feels like I have a hot poker in my neck.
You must have lifted something very heavy at one time or another. Carrying heavy packs of elk out will do that to you sooner or later. I have gone through the same symptoms that you are describing. If it is only L4/L5 it shouldn't affect your mobility too much but it will take 5 or 6 months to be feeling pretty good. Just remember, you will not be 100% for a whole year.
Good luck!
PM me if you want to talk. I know how frightening this is.
My wife went in a virtual quad, with no felling from her shoulders down, except for her torso, and was deteriorating, but still had some movement in all limbs, to walking 4 days later with all feeling in arms returned and a numbness in her legs that lasted another 3 months. After 6 months she lost the last part of numbness that was in her soles of her feet.
To this day it is still a battle for her with pain around the operation area as nerves mend, but otherwise she is free to do as she would like, minus things that upset the nerves. She exercises a lot and stays healthy, but it still hurts each day and night. They have told us it will be 24 months for full recovery though some pain may be there forever. I know if it was a choice between the pain or a chair, she would go the pain any day as it can be managed and does get better as she goes.
Ask your surgeon about using cadavor bone instead of shaving bone off of your hip. I had my fusion in 2001 and I still have pain where they shaved the bone from my hip. They didn't know that I had a bad case of osteoporosis (soft bones) and it took well over a year for my bones to fuse.
As described in the link above, this condition is more about a slipping vertebra. Mine involve L5-S1 and for me the fusion was a Godsend. I had it done in 2000 when I was 46 yrs old. It was done early spring and, after following the doctor's and physical therapist's directions, I was out rock climbing again that autumn. The key for me, as stated by others here, was to go into the surgery with your core muscles in the best shape you could make them and then after surgery do EVERYTHING they tell you to do. After that it becomes a lifestyle. I've never stopped doing the exercises they gave me to do. When I had my last visit to the surgeon I thanked him for bringing back a normal life to me. He looked me in the eye and said, "Thank yourself, you did the work..." It made me think of the first time I walked into his office and the waiting room was full and honestly, 8 of the 10 people there were obese... those folk just didn't get it. I wish you well on your endeavor. Oh yeah, do your homework on who the surgeon will be.
The pain at that time was so bad I bed ridden the last few weeks. I could not eat or sleep the pain was so bad.
I had that procedure and once I awoke from the operation, all the pain was gone. There was pain from the operation, but that was nothing compared to herniation pain. Within a month I back walking 6 miles a day and even hunted bear that spring. My operation was done in March and I hunting mid May.
I did the same thing again, but this time it was not as bad and in 2006 I had the same procedure, through the same scare, but that time my pain just went down one leg. I had that done in Jan or 2006 and bear hunting again in May.
I have been pretty darn good ever since the last one.
I now have problems in my neck and they wanted to do a fusion on it, but I so far have avoided it and will as long as I can.
Have a great bow hunt. BB
I had an EMG and it was not very bad a all. I was talking to the doctor while he was performing the EMG and he told me that he worked with the VA hospital for awhile learing the EMG process. He said that he asked the doctor doing the EMG on vets how he knows when to stop increasing the voltage. The doctor told him "when they start to cry".
He was very upset with VA doctors and does not do that to his patients.
Have you tried spinal decompression therapy? Reported success rate percentage for decompression is 80% versus 50% for back surgery.
Once you have back surgery, there's not a whole lot anyone else can do for you, so you really should try for that to be your last resort.
Now for the good news I have not touched a pain pill or had any back pain since 6 weeks after my last surgery.Before it I couldn't stand for five minutes.
I don't know where Oakie gets his 50% success rate with back fusions, and I know they have had problems with the artficial discs. Anything thatr a surgeon has been diong for a year or two I don't want. You can experimate on the other guy.
If you are in a smaller community go to a hospital that has a large neuro group.It's not hard to be the best surgeon around or group around when you are ina smaller area.Don't be afraid to ask your doctor how many of these he does a month, and what his infection rates are. Alot of the people that have this surgery fail don't do the work after it. Won't loose weight or really work at the rehab.
I get the 50% success number from top area spinal surgeons, hardware supply reps, and orthopedists who are all business associates that refer patients to my wife, a DC, who handles these cases to the tune of 50 per day.
The same homework that is being advocated for surgeons should also be done with chiropractors. The same religious attention being demanded towards your therapy after surgery to allow it to be a success, would gain you better results from a chiropractor who knows their salt, without your ever having to have surgery. The problem is that most people fail on these two points and say, "It didn't work, time for surgery." And then we get to read all the horror stories about the surgery.
I wouldn't have believed half the things I now know if I weren't privy to it on a daily basis.
Additionally, an excellent measure of a surgeon's capability, if you do decide that route, is to examine his daily case load, and then check out outstanding lawsuits against that surgeon. Understand that high cases numbers can mean a successful surgeon, but can also indicate burnout. The lawsuits are ALWAYS telling. A couple are understandable, 10 or more and you should run!
Depends on how bad the rupture is. In some cases a chiropractor can still help. But if you wait for your disc to rupture that's like waiting for gangrene to set in before you call someone. If you do, you're probably going under the knife.
I find it interesting how many people have a surgeon ruin their lives and say, "oh that was one bad surgeon, let's go see another." but if they go to one bad chiropractor, they will never go again. The truth is in the posts on this thread... Look at how many of the back surgeries just in this thread have been failures or have created additional problems that had to be corrected. If those are the odds you want to stick with, then I can't help you.
Trkytrk,
Same situation with you. You sound like the perfect candidate for back surgery because of your refusal to accept solutions, which makes you impossible to deal with as a patient, landing you under the knife. I see it worked out really well for you. I could probably provide you with more testimonies than you can read in this year of people helped with bulging discs by chiropractors, but that would be a waste of time because your mind is set. You've done yourself a great disservice by choosing to do something that you now admit was a complete failure, and that you will live with pain the rest of your life. Don't condemn other people to that same painful mistake through your ignorance.
For those that are interested in reality: Every day we get people coming to us for help after a fusion, saying that it was a complete failure and they are in worse pain than they have ever been in. It often brings my wife to tears to tell them that she can't help them now because their spine has been fused together. All she can do is help with pain in vertebrae around the fusion. And every day she gets new reports from patients who say she has given them their life back because they chose to allow her to help them with their bulging disc and other problems BEFORE going under the knife. I live this every day.
I was bone on bone before my fusion not much a DC can do with that or a Pt. L4-l5 just collapsed and fragmented once again not much anyone could do but a surgeon.
I do agree to try what you need to before getting cut, but sometimes it's what has to be done.
With respect, I can't comment on your case specifically, but you should consider that I am telling you that there are many things that general public believes can't be helped, that I see people are getting help for every day. Just consider it. I am really trying to help perceptions.
Also, my wife has just been approached by the hospitals in her town to perform manipulations under anesthesia. This is yet another referral from the ortho surgeons and hospital board to a DC, which they hope to use as a preferred solution instead of having to perform surgeries.the surgeons themselves are lobbying for this. But DL would have you believe these collaborations don't exist.
One of the top ortho surgeons in the state of Oklahoma refers back and forth with my wife in a very professional and successful collaboration. This also occurs with spinal surgeons in Tulsa and Muskogee.
Make no mistake in my comments, there are situations that demand immediate surgery.
DL,
The only two things in your last 3 posts that are true is that any health practitioner should x-ray you before doing anything, and surgery should be your last option.
Everything else is clearly and unfortunately indicative of your Internet education, not the education and experience of the surgeons and doctors and chiropractors that we all work with day in and day out.
Look, I really wish I could help you guys but it sounds like for some, the stigma is too strong for you to overcome. I wish you would be careful when making statements that you have absolutely no credibility in making, because people are easily and incorrectly influenced, and some of you who are most anti-chiro on this thread are now living a life in which you will never be pain free due to surgery. Please just consider that there are alternatives still available for people.
Interesting note: at last count, the reported fusion cases on this thread had 70% failure or complication results. That's far worse than the 50% I conservatively reported in my first post.
To become a board-certified neurologist several requirements must be met.
Education
* Four years of premedical education in a college or university * Four years of medical school resulting in an MD or DO degree (doctor of medicine or doctor of osteopathy degree) * One year internship in either internal medicine or medicine/surgery * At least 3 years of specialty training in an accredited neurology residency program
Residency
Residency programs accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) provide supervised experience in hospital and ambulatory care settings as well as educational conferences and research trainings.
After completing residency training, neurologists may enroll in a fellowship program to develop expertise in a subspecialty such as stroke, dementia, or movement disorders.
Board Certification
After completing the educational requirements, medical doctors may seek certification from the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (ABPN), a member of the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS).
The ABPN offers additional certification in the following fields:
* Addiction Psychiatry * Child and Adolescent Psychiatry * Clinical Neurophysiology * Forensic Psychiatry * Geriatric Psychiatry * Neurodevelopmental Disabilities * Pain Medicine * Psychosomatic Medicine * Sleep Medicine * Vascular Neurology
To be eligible, applicants must:
* Have an unrestricted state license to practice medicine * Complete the required years of residency * Successfully pass both a written (Part I) and oral (Part II) exam administered by the ABPN
Certification by the American Board of Osteopathic Neurologists and Psychiatrists requires a high degree of competency in the practice of neurology at the time of certification.
To be eligible for board certification, applicants must:
* Graduate from an approved college of osteopathic medicine * Have an unrestricted state license * Meet ethical standards established by the American Osteopathic Association * Be an active member of the American or Canadian Osteopathic Association for 2 years prior to certification How many years does it take to become a chiropractor? 3-4? Over 10-11. One thing you forget to mention is that surgeons end up with the worst cases where people suffer for years and permanent damage has been done. I personally spent thousands going to different chiropractors that all had rave reviews. So good luck if the chiropractor helps stick with it. But for some injuries there is nothing that can be done short of surgery. When the disc is totally gone vertebras pinch off nerves. Look at a skeleton at a drs office and unless your vertebrate are different than the average human your nerves get pinched causing severe pain. Left like that the nerve sheath will get worn through and you will have permanent nerve damage. My mother in laws disc was ruptured because of a chiropractor and had to have surgery. 911 had to be called to get her out of his office. I know many people that have had successful surgeries and also know a lot of people that have been scammed by chiropractors selling snake oil supplements as part of there business.
Your snake oil comment shows the limitless bounds of your prejudice. But I was hoping you would comment about education because I already knew you would make this grossly inaccurate assumption. And this is another opportunity to show more truth over your misconception.
DCs spend between 7-9 years in school and residency, same as any MD. They are required to pass 4 board certifications in some states, even more in others. The curriculum of the DC matches that of the MD in every facet except one: toxicology. MDs learn about diseases and then take classes in which drug companies tell them which drug to prescribe for symptoms. DCs take the same classes about diseases and then take classes learning how to heal people through adjustments instead of drugs. In fact, board certified DCs can take an additional around 1.5 year + or - depending on student, program of toxicology courses and receive an MD after their DC as well. If they chose to, they could continue in neurological programs. My wife currently has a best friend in Ohio that is a DC currently in a neurology program. She has about a year left.
Plastic surgeons have different requirements that are above and beyond even plain old MDs. Various types of surgeons go through different programs. But the chiropractor faces extensive education, boards, and certification requirements, same as any other person that earns the title of Doctor in front of their name. Again, your Internet education is failing you, probably because you're only looking for what you want to believe.
W/ regard to your mother in law, I believe you mentioned he didn't take an x-ray? He should be sued and held liable. That is an unforgiveable mistake. It is the precise reason my wife will not adjust any close friends or acquaintances outside of the office without first having a consultation and x-ray.
Your Internet searches should reveal to you that percentage of life threatening situations caused by adjustments is almost negligible compared to those statistics of wrongful deaths in hospitals due to misdiagnosis, incorrect administrations of drugs, etc.
Again it just kills me to read about all your problems that you are currently enduring and yet you still maintain this deep seated disdain that has no basis in reality. I hate it for you.
Oakie's Link
I know you won't believe this, but just using your Internet search you suggested as your measuring stick, here is a report on medical malpractice attributed to chiropractors. For simply reporting just the claims, no matter which was true or falsified, The worst report of claims was over 7000 between the years of 1990-2004.
According to Medical News Today, 195,000 patients die EACH YEAR due to medical errors. Those are not claims like the chiropractic stats above, those are deaths. Furthermore, According to National Academy of Sciences, 1.5 MILLION People were injured in 2006, one year, due to Medication injuries.
So your experience with your mother in law, although terribly regrettable, is an anomaly, and to suggest that as a reason for people to avoid chiropractors is like suggesting we should take away guns for killing people, but we should continue driving cars, which are completely safe.
I have also specifically stressed in all aspects that working together is the best way, NOT an exclusion of any one type of doctor.
As far as spinal alignment preventing any and all diseases, that is part of it. Exercise and diet are key components. I am sickness free for 9 years now. I've known my wife for 9 years, ironically. She will be the first to tell you there is a time and place for hospitals, MDs, and surgery.
Good luck with your recovery.
So one bit of advice that you should take up is to get more than one Dr's opinion on this. You should be at a minimum talking to both a Orthopedic surgeon and a Neurosurgeon that specialize in spinal disorders. They will have very different approaches to dealing with spine/back issues. No matter what you do, surgery should be your last option. There are always risks and complications that increase any time you go under the knife.
I've been dealing with some severe back issues for the last twelve years. First Dr I met 12 years ago wanted to do surgery that week and fuse vertebrae. Since then I found better Dr's and treatment methods and have avoided surgery so far. Some day surgery may come, but it will be the LAST option on the table.
Although not a doctor, I have personally been in the OR for more than 1,000 spinal fusions. There is not a whole lot, in the area of back and neck pathologies, I haven't seen. First of all, cervical spine fusion rates are in the high 90% area, with very high positive patient outcomes in most cases. And that relates to just about every study published in the past decade. When it comes to lumbar fusions, the success rate is quite a bit lower. Depending upon the study, the approach (posterior or anterior), the pathologies, the levels treated, etc., the rate of fusion in the lower back is between 60 and 70%. That being said, not all patients who have a successful fusion are pain free, and not all patients with non-unions are in pain. Back surgery, especially with fusions in the lower spine, is not an exact science. All cases differ and they must be taken on a case-by-case basis. Outcomes depend on a myriad of circumstances: patient age, activity level, smoker vs. non-smoker, hardware used, biological material implanted, post-op management, and so on... Long story short, if you cannot function, or live the life you want to live, you should consider all options. Research you surgeon to the best of your ability, follow post-operative directions and have proper expectations.
Good luck and I wish you well
BUT, no physician should disagree that the least invasive options should be considered FIRST (unless deteriorating signs). As to a chiropractor causing a herniation... people can herniate a disk just sneezing!!! Its not common and very unlikely! Why does a chiropractor's malpractice cost only a $1,000 per year? Because its low risk when done correctly, not just because they like us! As a chiropractor who graduated from one of the best chiropractic colleges, I can tell you that it is two years of basic sciences and 4 years of chiropractic school, come on DL, be honest. And don't get me started on the 50 a day comment...!
There are "good ones" and "bad ones" in EVERY profession.
I know from personal experience that had I not had my back fused, most likely I would have missed out on years of enjoying the mountains and elk hunting. I was down and out with severe back and leg pain.
After my second fusion at L4-L5, I shot a black bear spot and stalk 7 weeks later, still in quite a bit of pain. Keep walking and stay active. I wish you best of luck. Ron
My wife received a BS in Biology in four years and finished chiropractic at Logan in 3. Answer 7 years. That fits within the 7-9 years I listed. Her sister has taken over 4 to receive her DC from another school because She hasn't performed as well and has had to take some classes over. For her it will be over 9 years of school. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you think I'm not being honest.
And I'd love to hear your complaints about helping lots of patients. Go ahead and start.
Perhaps we should take it offline though, since most here probably aren't interested in chiropractic practice.
I have continuing pain, muscle spasms and loss of nerve function in some areas and am not sure if I would do the back surgery again. I'd definately do the knee- that sucker hurt for 30 years.
G
The first time I had it I was up and running the next morning This time 2 weeks later and I'm still not able to walk without a cane or walker.
I'm worried if I'm gonna be able to make my annual trip to Quebec bear hunting. I'm sure I'll be able to get around later in the season...but I need to get my baits out within the next month.
I have 3000# pounds of donuts to get out...time will tell....
My surgery was a success, now I can do anything from ride a bike 20mi to sit in a tree from dark to dark. I am not 100% pain free but I'm 100% better than I was before my surgery. It is a slow and painful healing process but in my case well worth it. DO NOT allow them to extract bone from your hip, this has been known to cause hip problems later and its unnecessary.
FIND a Dr. that specializes in Neuro/spinal surgery not a knee, shoulder, hip type guy. Mine did nothing but spinal work and he had a wait list a mile long but he was worth the wait. If they say they can get you in next week chances are there is a reason. The BEST surgerons are always booked well in advance.
Good Luck!
That is what I too said above, don't let them shave bone from your hip. Mine was done in 2001 and it still hurts where they shaved the bone.
I am going to have still another set of injections on April 4th one level above my fusion.
