I would REALLY like a small diameter arrow shaft, so the broadhead ferrule is larger than the diameter of the arrow shaft...but with the poundages required for such endeavors, even a FMJ shaft isn't heavy enough (assume a 30" shaft). If a double walled arrow is available with a diameter that IS smaller than my arrow ferrule, that would be another great option.
I am asking for input from fellow bowsiters that have already researched this type of hunt....and I will thank you in advance for your input....
Here's what I used on my cape buffalo last week. 900 grain total arrow weight. I sleeved a Easton Jazz 1914 inside a Easton Gamegetter II 2219. I topped that off with a VPA 250 grain single blade COC broadhead.
Best of luck.
I edited my post....feel better? LOL Checking email next....
Mike, thanks....
I use 300gr VPA's Iv used the Single Bevel. Double Bevel and the 3 blade on Buff and all have performed flawlessly. Thats the 300gr Screw in. If you need to bump the Weight you can add another 100grs by going with a HIT Brass insert, which is what I did.
Then play with options like weight tube or a target carbon inside that shaft if you require more weight-spine.
I foot all hunting arrows with Alu shaft. So for the first 2" the Diameter is the same as the BH ferrel, I take that over the risk of the front of the arrow impact failure that is common with heavy bone contact.
When you call your broadhead a single blade, it is a two blade, but a single bevel....right? It doesn't really have just one cutting surface, does it?
Howie,
I would like to avoid glue on heads.
Warthog,
I can't say that I have a preference of aluminum or carbon......I just want good flying arrows. I have used carbon for several years now, and hadn't even thought about going back to aluminum for this hunt.....I might have to consider that.....
But if the 300 grain VPA is a screw in head, and I can use a 100 grain HIT insert with it....now we're starting to make some serious headway towards my preferred arrow weight. I'm also gonna have some wicked FOC....LOL!!
I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "footing" your arrow with an aluminum shaft.....?
I built some 2219/1916 combo arrows a number of years ago. Easy to get the weight you want then if they are 30-31" long with the broadheads you are considering.
I also built up a 2419/2117 combo that was a beast. It would be too big in diameter for what you want, the shaft is larger than the head, but it made a great mini spear with a 220 grain Snuffer!
Rayzor's Link
On to our broadheads...You won't find broadheads on today's market. All VPA broadheads are fully CNC machined in one piece from high carbon tool grade steel and are heat treated trough hard to 48-54 Rockwell, depending on the model. They also have a satisfaction guarantee.
Our double bevels, that have picked up the Penetrator nickname, have a unique ferrule that is faceted to match the sharpening angle. It extends all the way forward to the Tanto style tip for added strength and support. The design makes for quite the little bone splitting wedge. We prefer this bone splitting approach rather than the whole single bevel twisting action argument. They are available in 125-250 grain models. In response to customers who continued to ask for a single bevel, we developed our Offset blade single bevel model we call the OSSB. We really prefer our double bevel approach but thought if we were going to make one we really wanted to strengthen the head. That twisting motion people seem talk about with a single bevel also changes the bending moment which can break the head. In order to strengthen the heads we offset the blades which makes for a larger cross section. This greatly increases the strength and makes for a unique and tough split point drill type tip. They are currently available as limited run VPA Custom Shop models. They are left wing, 300 and 325 grain, only. Both designs have been run through several Asiatic and Cape Buffalo....INbowdude, we'd love to have a pic of your recent buff kill for our website gallery!!!
Several buff are in the photo and writer galleries on the VPA website I have linked.
What is the heaviest two bladed broadhead that you make?
The 325?
The newer version of that head is 300gr. We have quite a few of them.
The latest VPA Custom Shop Releases are the same double bevel design with 1 1/4" cut in 250 and 300gr. We just finished them.
Geez...
The Goldtip Kenetic is a Carbon. At .200 spine its STIFF. I prefer the carbons.
By Footing. I mean I'm "sleeving" the front of the carbon shaft with a section of Aluminium shaft to increase its structural integrity. We have found one of the most common failures if not the head is the the point where the head meats the shaft. Bending, breaking ect.
So I take a Section of Alu arrow that has the same inside diameter as the outside diameter of the Carbon Arrow and then I Chamfer it and Epoxy it on.
Like this
Grizzly Stick makes some really heavy arrows but they are expensive. Cheap when considering the cost of a dangerous game hunt though.
Many options available to build a deadly buff arrow. When you add in the Elephant or Rhino I am guessing you are looking at sleeving shafts.
This will be interesting and I can't wait to see your equipment choices develop.
Have a buddy setting up for Elephant right now -- combined we've shot a bunch of big stuff over the years. He's going with 250 FMJ or Axis with a weight tube to get to 1200gr total and is likely to use a 300+ Ashby head -- personally, I like the 210gr Silver Flame and have never seen anything penetrate better -- but understand the logic of the heavier head on that setup to pull the arrow on penetration. Forget the chatter on bone-busting capability as it is a bone hit on Ele is a losing proposition. Must admit, I like Warthog's setup as well -- but that's the joy of bowhunting, we all have find what works for us.
Ken
GBA
If I were planning an elephant hunt,I'd want to have some conversations with Buff.
Thanks for the great photos!! The "footing" is exactly as I pictured it.
I was hoping for a one arrow option (as opposed to double walled arrows or footing), but even with a 100 grain brass insert and 325 grain broadheads, a 30" FMJ arrow at 17.2 gns/inch comes up quite a bit short of my 1,200 grain preferred weight. I am absolutely dead set on using only a two blade broadhead.....but everything else is negotiable.
Buff,
When you talk about your 75 grain arrow adapter, is that because you are using glue on broadheads? Are you seeing more broadhead failure at the threaded part of the broadhead? ....is that why you went with glue on broadheads?
Warthog,
The principal reason that you are footing your arrows, is to increase the strength of the shaft where the broadhead screws into the insert.....the failure that you are referring to .....was the broadhead breaking off where the threaded part of the broadhead meets the insert....or was the shaft failing, and the insert and broadhead pulled out of, or broke free of the arrow shaft?
If I needed to use a double walled shaft to get the weight that I wanted, would it be advantageous to consider putting the insert and broadhead on the inner arrow?.....so the outer arrow(especially if aluminum) could reinforce the "neck" of the shaft....giving it more integrity....instead of putting the insert in the larger diameter, outer arrow shaft, in which case the inner shaft is simply "riding" behind the insert?
I am leary of the footing, only because I don't have the expertise or degree of comfort to probably get the shafts as perfectly as I would want....it is a wicked good idea....but I am trying to keep the diameter of my arrow as small as possible behind the broadhead ferrule..... just to optimize my penetration. I understand that elephant ribs are about the size of a 2X4...thicker in the middle....perhaps football shaped.
I was thinking that the longer I make the larger diameter shaft, the more drag or friction I might introduce.....your thoughts?
Rayzor,
Do you have any thoughts about the broadheads failing as it pertains to Warthogs need to "foot" the arrows?
Thanks for the great photos!! The "footing" is exactly as I pictured it.
I was hoping for a one arrow option (as opposed to double walled arrows or footing), but even with a 100 grain brass insert and 325 grain broadheads, a 30" FMJ arrow at 17.2 gns/inch comes up quite a bit short of my 1,200 grain preferred weight. I am absolutely dead set on using only a two blade broadhead.....but everything else is negotiable.
Buff,
When you talk about your 75 grain arrow adapter, is that because you are using glue on broadheads? Are you seeing more broadhead failure at the threaded part of the broadhead? ....is that why you went with glue on arrows?
Warthog,
The principal reason that you are footing your arrows, is to increase the strength of the shaft where the broadhead screws into the insert.....the failure that you are referring to .....was the broadhead breaking off where the threaded part of the broadhead meets the insert....or was the shaft failing, and the insert insert and broadhead pulled out of, or broke free of the arrow shaft?
If I needed to use a double walled shaft to get the weight that I wanted, would it be advantageous to consider putting the insert and broadhead on the inner arrow?.....so the outer arrow(especially if aluminum) could reinforce the "neck" of the shaft....giving it more integrity....instead of putting the insert in the larger diameter, outer arrow shaft, in which case the inner shaft is simply "riding" behind the insert?
I am leary of the footing, only because I don't have the expertise or degree of comfort to probably get the shafts as perfectly as I would want....it is a wicked good idea....but I am trying to keep the diameter of my arrow as small as possible behind the broadhead ferrule..... just to optimize my penetration. I understand that elephant ribs are about the size of a 2X4...thicker in the middle....perhaps football shaped.
I was thinking that the longer I make the larger diameter shaft, the more drag or friction I might introduce.....your thoughts?
Rayzor,
Do you have any thoughts about the broadheads failing as it pertains to Warthogs need to "foot" the arrows?
A glue on broadhead can be more versatile in customizing a broadhead weight.I believe Buff used the grade 5 titanium adapter from Tuffhead.It may be the toughest adapter available right now.Some have reported steel adapters bending on hard hits,lately.
Like I tell Clients
"your set-up is only as Strong as the Weakest part within it"
Jake...
The new Titanium Adapter's are a big improvement on the Common steel ones. There used to be some great steel adapters but they are no longer made, Pretty much all the Current steel one's are soft. Having said that the quality of build and steel in the One piece heads I use as well as the Wide weight range means I can eliminate some of the variable's found in a Glue on. Each have there place though.
"A footing is primarily used to strengthen a carbon shaft on frontal impacts-to prevent the insert from being driven back in the shaft and mushrooming the front of the shaft.It doesn't hurt to put a short one on the nock end.The footing won't effect penetration adversely." Jim B. Correct, Also helps on angular impacts (Quartering away ribs) to prevent the Adapters bending or the head and insert breaking out of the side of the arrow shaft. As well as both the problems you listed Jake.
If you decide to go with double walled shaft then yes it would certainly be advantageous to have the BH and Incert into the inner arrow, essentially making the outer-shaft a reinforcement.
If "I" where to hunt Elephant right now I would use the 300gr VPA 3 blade, for the simple reason that its stronger then any 2 blade. The 3 blades are structurally stronger then a 2 blade. Take a T Bar and a Flat Bar off steel and see which one is easier to bend. Another point on that note is the overlooked aspect of some of the longer 2 blades, They have been made that way because testing has shown the longer heads offer a greater mechanical advantage and therefore penetrate better (in a perfect world). However being longer makes them weaker. The leverage changes....in the same way a long arrow is easier to bend then a very short one. A long BH is easier to bend then a short one. Structural integrity is more important then mechanical advantage. If the head bends all penetration is out the window. So having said that if your set on a 2 blade, shorter can be better.
1200grs is VERY heavy why are you set on that weight if you don't mind me asking.
There are a STACK of arrow set-ups that can kill heavy boned dangerous game. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to bowhunting...there is also no harm in searching out the best.
I think that Warthog has it nailed. As far as the Kinetecs....they are a super tough shaft. The weak link of the shaft is the half in/half out insert. It is much better than Victories version but it is still the weak link. If you are interested in the Kinetic you could always have someone locally machine you some footings or possibly have Warthog make some up for you since he seems to have this method nailed down pretty good. Whatever you decide to do just keep us all informed as I think this equipment selection stuff is extremely cool.
I got a text message yesterday from Ricardo Longoria yesterday....he was successful in Zimbabwae a couple days ago....I was hoping to use a couple of his recommendations where I will be hunting, but Ken Moody and the Mopani brush may prevent that from happening.
Ken seems to feel that a 20 yard shot will be a LONG shot.....12 yards is apt to be more the norm......
This Ele was the culmination of a quest that started in 2000. I set out simply to take the "Big Five" with a bow. After the first Buff I shot - which required more than one arrow - I decided I wanted a "Five" of all mature males with one arrow kills and with reasonable recovery distances. Buff I got right on the second try. I did four Leopard hunts and finally got one on the 56th day of hunting them. Lion took two hunts and 24 days. Rhino was darted, so the first time around. Ele took three tries. First one had to be finished off on a charge, second one took two arrows and third one worked out (some "dry hunts" in between, too). Though I actually got the Buff right on the second try, I've taken five total with a bow, three of which have worked out right (other two took more than one arrow). I will continue to hunt Buffs and Eles, but have made my peace with the other species. Hunting Nile Buffalo next Spring and Forest Elephant the following Spring.
Regarding Jake's question on arrows. On this last hunt, I used Easton FMJ Dangerous Game shafts. My only modification was using a custom-made stainless steel insert/outsert combination. Total arrow weight was right at 800 grains with a two-blade broadhead. I used a 90# Hoyt Maxxis Dangerous Game. On my earlier hunts, I was using duplex shafts to reach the desired weight. Since the Easton shafts came out, no need to do that anymore.
Interesting to read and hear about your various success's.
I love hearing about the various planning and preparation going into a dangerous game set up and arrow.
I think we would all love to see and hear more of your exotic hunts, its great to follow these when so many of us will never get the chance.
Great stuff.
Great to hear from you on this thread!!!
Could you post a photo of one of your ele arrows?
Thx,
Jake
I have been favoring an extremely heavy arrow set-up (1,200 grains +), but after reading Ricardo Longoria's arrow set-up, my initial experimentation with possible arrow set-ups will start with a 30" FMJ shaft (17.7 gpi) and a 58 grain stainless steel Firelock insert. My three blazers are 18 grains, and my nock is 6 grains. When I put on my 325 grain VPA broadhead, I am at 901 grains.
Once I shoot these arrows a few times and feel good about my accuracy, it is my intention to shoot an arrow through a downrange chronograph.....just to get a feel for the energy that my arrows will have at the estimated point of impact.
I am not saying that this is the set-up that I will be using....I will just say that this my starting point....
I am still trying to decide if I will take both of my thirteen year old Mathews Custom Safari (a single cam rig that were set at 100# out of the box)bows, or if I will use my Elite GT500 with 90# limbs (currently weighing in around 93#).
Decisions....decisions.....
Just for Pat's sake of course.... ;)
Ray
I have a dozen of your 325 grain single bevel heads, and they are shaving sharp.
Between your 300 grain tips, and your 325 tips, tell me which ones YOU'd hunt with and why....
I have already followed up with Ricardo.....gimme a week, and I will be able to provide more info ....
Besides hitting your target in the intended spot, it is a pretty simple formula for success.
1.- You use the Easton FMJ Dangerous Game shaft as a basis. They have a good weight, are tough and readily available. 2.- You add the Kaufman insert/outsert. This will keep the front end of the arrow together and also help in penetration as the outsert has a larger diameter than the shaft. 3.- After that, it is is matter of choosing the broadhead and vanes/feathers. Any high-quality two-blade broadhead will work. Some are better than others. 4.- Arrow length and broadhead weight will be the biggest variables as you will need to tweak both to get the tuning just right. These arrows need to fly like darts - shoot bullet holes in paper with no tears at multiple distances. Any energy lost due to improper tuning will be a serious impediment to maximum penetration. 5.- The bow is a matter of personal preference. If you can get the shaft above in the 225 f.p.s.+ range, you'll be fine. So shoot the bow you like, as long as it will perform and tune properly.
As stated above, getting the right gear is not too complicated. Being able to make the right shot, when the pressure is on, is what really matters.
Many thanks
DA
I likely will never hunt elephant. I also hesitate to answer the single bevel vs double bevel thing since you are using our single bevels and I'm confident they'll get the job done for you. It will likely open a can of worms... but I guess I will give you my take on it anyway. Personally I prefer a OUR double bevels over all single bevels. However, if I were to use a single bevel, I would chose ours. Here's why: That twisting action that everyone talks about and is said to give single bevels an advantage in breaking bones also applies those stresses to the head itself. It changes the bending moment and can lead to breakage if you don't have the proper metallurgy and/or a design to support it. A double bevel applies stresses evenly to both sides. This is given that impacts are at right angles with a consistent medium. As for potential to edge chipping, with equal metallurgy the wider angle of the double bevel at the edge is stronger and therefore is more resistant to edge chipping. At any distance from the edge the area of the wider double bevel angle will be greater therefore so will be the strength and resistance to chipping. We originally said No many times to the countless inquiries on making a single bevel head. We had seen a plenty of pics and heard quite a few stories of the various heads on the market breaking. Needless to say that's no what we wanted for ourselves. We felt our single double bevel design had addressed the bone breaking thing without the potential warranty issues caused weaknesses of the single bevel single bevel designs we had seen may bring. Then we thought there may actually be a market if we could engineer the strength into the design without having to go to some super exotic alloy that would put our heads at even a higher price point than those currently on the market. Even more if we could sell them for less. The offset design of our offset blades are also angled and add strength to head add strength to the head. They give a larger cross section supporting the head all the way to the split point drill type tip. As for chip resistance, I will say ours will be equal or better than others that I am aware of on the market. We didn't want to drastically steepen the angle. Nor did we want touse an alloy that cost several times as much, that would increase tool wear and reduce cycle times to the point our heads would cost $60-$70 each.
As you can see in the pic the ferrules on our double bevels are faceted to match the main sharpening angle,tapering and supporting the head all the way to the double tanto tip. That will give you that bone splitting action. The entire head is a splitting wedge. That same feature is found in all of our double bevel 2 blades currently available from 125-300gr.
If I were to use the NuFletch on my arrows, I could shorten my arrows by another 2.5 - 3.0 inches. That would improve spine, and allow for higher draw weight. I don't want to overcomplicate my arrow or my set-up, but I want to be thorough.
Would the NuFletch be a valid alternative for my elephant arrows?