Getting a head to 80-90% of the original sharpness isn't that hard, but that last 10-20% is where most guys fall down.
Secondly, guys that claim to sharpen well sometimes have simply attained a slightly ragged 'razor' edge that feels wicked but lacks the structure to hold that edge thru an animal.
The question of creating an edge involves more than perceived sharpness.
Hopefully others with experience and technique will chime in but I concur with your dilemma.
Bill
slicing paper? Blade not sliding on a fingernail? Shaving hair from your arm?
I'd be curious to know what you guys consider "sharp enough" to hunt with.
Once hair popping sharp, I seal each blade’s edge in hot wax.
The good news is,there is available today,a ton of information on the subject and with the internet,there are people that will help walk you through it.
A 3 blade will never feel as sharp as 2 and 4 blade heads because the angle is not as sharp,60 degrees on the 3 blade,50 degrees on many 2 and 4 blades and 25 degrees on heads like the Tuffhead and Grizzly.
I use wet or dry sandpaper in various grits from 320-2000,laid on a hard,flat surface to sharpen.Two blades are mounted in a KME broadhead sharpener and the VPA 3 blades are just pushed across the sandpaper,2 edges at a time.I did one the other day and it just took a few minutes to bring to a mirror,honed edge,due to the very uniform grind of the VPA.
I think you could learn to hone those VPA's fairly quickly and that skill will be a great asset to you.
I never shoot a broadhead without a brand new blade on it though.
The other tests I have tried, including rubber bands and paper slicing, seem to me to be just as dependent on finding the same exact quality of rubber band or paper and holding it in exactly the same way to try to establish any reliable testing comparison, so had no real improvement in accuracy over shaving.
IMO, an "average guy" sharpener can achieve the best sharpness using a system such as the Lansky or a similar one, that uses a slotted guide to control the movement of the "tail" attached to the mounted stones. This takes care of the most difficult part of the skill needed in sharpening, which is the ability to consistently maintain the same angle while removing the material from the blade edge.
The two slot choices provided also allow the user to rough the blade in with the coarse stone, then use the finer stone at a slightly steeper angle to put on the finer finish at the edge. And the stones provided do a good job of providing the variety needed to quickly get the rough edge in shape, then put on a smoother edge that will approach very closely the best factory edges.
I did find a felt tip marker to be very handy in actually seeing the condition of the edge, and the details of the recent removal of material. That helped especially while getting acquainted with the sharpening system. A magnifying glass would also be useful for most guys, probably. I am very near-sighted without glasses, so I can just get the glasses out of the way and get close to see those details.
The best edge finish that I can get, one the smoothly and easily shaves the hair on my arm with one stroke, is only achieved by further finishing the edge by stropping it against a surface that contains polishing compound. I have found that simple cardboard makes a very satisfactory material for that purpose. A leather strop such as the barber always had hanging nearby is handier if you plan to sharpen a LOT of stuff, but an ordinary cereal box makes several disposable substitutes that work just as well, at no cost. A stick of jeweler's rouge rubbed against the inner (un-printed) side of the cardboard will imbed plenty of polishing substance to achieve the sharpness desired. The angle is less critical when stropping, and I usually remove the blade from the clamp before this step, unless it is needed to hold the item securely, as when sharpening replaceable BH blades.
That's the good news.
The bad news is that the sharpener system described does somewhat limit your sharpening ability to items that can be held in the available clamps at the angles required. I have sharpened two-blade BH's and their replaceable auxiliary blades, separately, using these systems, but they can sometimes be difficult, and fixed three-blade BH's are impossible.
My favorite BH's are the old style NAP Thunderheads, which have easily replaceable blades of good quality that fit the sharpening systems described very well. I have resharpened some of my blades for these many times.
The system works very well on all the more conventional sharpening jobs I've used it for, from the kitchen knives to my Buck folding hunter that I've carried for a couple of generations, and my filet knives.
I think the bigger issue is whether the head can hold sharpness through the animal. flat blade angles that put pressure on the edge- either due to short fixed or scissor mech design can dull heads on contact with hair/hide.
I have a bunch more of these-[ mostly elk shots] do you notice a pattern?
All flatter blade angles/less tapered heads....except the montec- which is just poor steel.
Maybe they did know what they were doing in the old days with the tapered heads, eh? It puts less pressure on the edge....
I've always thought that sharpness isn't necessarily the end-all that folks make it out to be, as blades begin to dull the moment they hit hair/hide. Key is how sharp they remain as they penetrate.
I've often been amazed that a SUPER DULL broadhead used for practice can still slice off the vane of an adjacent arrow in the target like a hot knife through butter despite the adjacent vane being relatively flexible and unsupported.
Clearly there are other things going on to make a broadhead able to cut.
Obviously one wouldn't hunt with a super dull broadhead like one used for multiple practice sessions, but I don't necessarily think a "shaving sharp" broadhead performs any better than a "very sharp" factory blade?
Carl
I primarily use the Snuffer SS and Hellrazor-interchange-ably though they are not perfect, they have been very good. I've broken them on rocks and such from pass throughs- but I can't think of one instance that design didn't hold sharpness all the way through an animal.
I have found a 3 sided chock stick [like in Spyderco sharpsmaker] to be the best for sharpeneing them hair popping sharp.
In my experience using them, most that are recovered after kill shots are quite reusable with a bit of sharpening, but having to replacing ruined blades is what I expect to do.
Now if the blade destruction prevents you from recovering your animal that's another story. That's why I would never think of using such a head on something like a Cape Buffulo where a rib is like hitting an ironwood 2x4.
For most big game so far (for me), that head has really performed solidly with great bleed-out channels.
I have 3 other pics of broken ferrules on ST mag heads- but much older versions- so not germain to the topic. ST stds are decent replaceable blade heads. But the topic is blade sharpness of which blade steel is an essential component as is design.
No head is perfect...but some heads can be the difference in recovering or not recovering your animal- sharpness and blade steel is probably more important than some would give credit.
No need to explain my sharpening method as it's nothing unique and has been covered many times, but getting them razor sharp is not an issue and takes no more than a minute or two max. Easily shave with no effort, pop rummer bands, cut paper, whatever test you want to use. The steel is that good.
First shot on an unwounded dangerous game animal is a properly spun, out of box, extremely sharp blade. A follow-up shot if necessary may be one that I have touched up - probably not though. By the way once my bow is tuned I do not shoot points - I only shoot the broadheads and arrows that I plan to use on my next hunt.
The thing that surprises me is how many guys over estimate there ability to sharpen a blade. I have seen it many times in hunting camps, they think it is sharp but after looking at it I certainly wouldn't use it. Some people have the skill and some do not or do not want to take the time to develop it. I certainly think there is a market out there for out of box extremely sharp blades - if not someone better call GK and tell them.
This is why I favor the GKs -- once set up they are ready to hunt. There is no substitute for 100% confidence in my equipment when drawing my bow for the "money shot." Was confident in the VPA's flight/structure, but have to admit to some nagging doubt about penetration due to the lack of a razor-sharp edge -- affected the hunt as far as max distance I was willing to shoot (due to penetration concerns).
Hunts, and especially DG hunts, are very expensive. So I don’t mind paying a little extra to be 100% confident that my equipment is perfect for the job. Making certain the bow, arrow, gear, form, mind and body are all tuned is the best way I know how to spend my limited free time in preparing for the hunt -- sacrificing time to sharpen heads vs buying them is not likely to improve my hunting or shooting ability.
I compared what I consider to be two premium broadheads suitable for dangerous game - price never came into it. The way I took the original post is that Spiral Horn wished there was an option for a "razor-sharp" VPA. I am sure that he would expect and be willing to pay more for it. Several have said that it only takes one or two minutes to get the VPAs razor sharp, I know I couldn't do it that fast, but if true, the factory could do it even faster. When compared to a dangerous game hunt an additional $10 dollars per head isn't a big investment.
If your premise is the VPA head can never be as sharp as a GK without changing the steel used to manufacture them - then I get your apples to oranges comparison. I had taken it at face value that they could be sharpened to the equivalent or at least close to the GK with proper sharpening technique. If they cannot then all of this is moot because I want the sharpest blade possible when I am hunting thick skinned dangerous game.
Its not difficult.
I see no value in a "RAZOR" sharp out of the packet head. Its structural integrity is vital and where most fall short. With good quality steel and tempering it must be able to take and retain a great edge.
Ken "There is no substitute for 100% confidence in my equipment when drawing my bow for the "money shot." Exactly but there is no way you can be 100% without shooting every single arrow and head combination to confirm that, No matter how good it spins etc once in a while your going find a flyer, be it the nock, arrow or head. (and the whole point of being 100% confident in it is to not have that happen on a once in a lifetime hunt...or IMO "any" hunt)
And as a result you have to re sharpen the heads, making a razor sharp out of the packet head pointless and extra expensive to those who do test them all.
For 2 blades the KME broadhead sharpener is a fail safe for getting heads crazy sharp. Its a great piece of equipment!
The VPA 3 blades are great in the very accurate machining allowing you to lay the head flat on a diamond stone and have it very sharp in minuets.
Single bevels are trickier to get right, there is a nack to that, but they can be made very very sharp as a result of the bevel angle. As a result you can get them super sharp but as a trade off the edge retention through heavy bone is not a good, as the thin edge rolls and scuffs.
Over the years guiding bowhunters on big game, and lots and lots of testing BH's dont take long to show up their flaws. Structural Integrity is always a problem before their potential to take a sharp edge.
Sharpest Broadhead in the world is worth NOTHING when it bends or snaps on the way in.
Like most long 2 blade heads, they can bend. Which is why I like shorter 2 blades.
One thing is apparent - there is a significant amount of fixed blade hunters that are similar to those shooting mechanicals in one regard, that is to say they want to designate out of package sharp heads as "hunting heads" to be shot once each, and only at live game, and they designate others as practice heads...
That to me - is just putting too much faith in your hunting arrow having NEVER shot that arrow and BH combo before....
Not cause for another bowsite "rift" or reason to divide one bowhunter versus another, but it is certainly food for thought...
Its obvious that you are passionate about VPAs -- personally, think its great that you found a product that you have such faith in. Wouldn't presume to ask you to even consider changing anything. You're also speaking from actual experience in pursuing big stuff so you're experience deserves some consideration.
The point I was trying to make in this thread is just that I wish VPA offered an optional sharpened version as there is clearly a market for it -- from the responses here it appears that is accurate. Predict that if they don't someone else will eventually come along that will make a solid steel pre-razor-sharpened head. Also, only shoot non-vented 210gr German Kinetics (have never seen that blade broken on a game shot), their steel is very hard and that's what makes it sharp and hold an edge. In fact my practice GKs remained sharper after numerous shots than I could sharpen the VPAs. Still more confident in my pristine never-shot fully inspected arrow than one shot several times -- always a chance of undetected damage.
Where we differ is the presumption that anyone who isn't an ace at sharpening broadheads is somehow a novice bowhunter, or lacking a fundamental bowhunting skill. To expand on this logic, have no desire to make my own bowstrings, dive into traditional archery or develop toxophillic skills. The best mechanic is not necessarily the best driver. And, most guides/PHs that I know would rather have a an experienced hunter, who is in-shape, confident, and can shoot -- and, most of us have been in many camps with "that guy" who's the equipment/technical expert.
I don't think its a big deal the head isn't perfect out of the package for the reasons mentioned- I shoot every arrow/BH combo first to check flight anyway- then touch up and total confidence that arrow will fly true on possibly my one and only shot opportunity.
I really don't think a guy that screws on a replaceable blade head that is "Supposed to fly" like Field points can complain if he makes a bad shot- it was never verified.
The bowhunting world is going away from products that require skills- replaceable blade knives and BH's vs knives and heads that req sharpening- personally, I'm trying to go the other way.
In all fairness your posts should have disclosed that you are a VPA Pro-Staffer. Also, you're rather famous for torture-testing broadheads by stunt-shooting them into bricks, steel, etc. (on YouTube). I wouldn't want to pay extra for pre-sharpened heads to shoot them into bricks either. Personally, need BHs for their intended purpose -- to be field ready out of the package for use on game. That's how I judge all of my hunting gear and could care less if it can survive stunts. Again, not bashing VPA heads -- would like the option to pay just a bit more to get them hunting sharp out of the package.
I really love to bowhunt, have a pretty successful track record at it and am meticulous about my gear. But, I'm a compound shooter who uses the tools that can help me put an arrow where I need to when the shot is there. Laser rangefinders, drop-away rests, pre-stretched strings, pre-sharpened blades, fiber-optic sights -- are all my friends. Having nothing against trad guys or toxophillics -- just comfortable in my niche in the sport and don't aspire to that level of challenge/purity. That includes mastery of broadhead sharpening. Medicineman, Van, and I are all very experience bowhunters who expressed the desire for a sharper VPA head -- certain there are many others.
There is indeed a market for supper sharp out of the packet heads. But very few do the prep you do to ensure things don't go wrong, when they pull a head out of the packet, screw it on the arrow and go hunt.
There are so many good heads out there that you pay top dollar for that can be used again and again, but you have to be able to re-sharpen them, I still feel that's a basic skill.
Quite the opposite in regards to the "stunt" testing I think there is one old video of me shooting a head through a buffalo shoulder blade in some back yard, from a bull I killed with the bow, people who know me know its a pet hate of mine that stunt testing of heads on ply board, bricks and steel, so thats Not true. My testing comes from in the field. And if we do do "stunt" testing its done on animals killed. Iv spent countless hours in the field, cutting open big game, taking ribs, shoulders, I used to have a pile of them to show people.
I love to bowhunt as well, I hunt with compound and trad, and all in between, movable sights, releases, pin nocks you name it, from one extreme to the other, because I love it and to strive to find what works best for me, and all within the parameters of what I know works in the field.
Im affiliated with a lot of companies within the industry and proud to be, Iv never and will never be on any bandwagon because I got some free stuff. I find it awkward and weird to go on a forum and push that whole "pro staff" thing, so I don't.
Its clear from the pics that there's no "stunt" testing going on there at all, So lets nip that in the bud. Its all from the field, months on end behind the string seeing arrows hit animals. Its not testing either, just observation in the hopes that whatever information gained will make it a quicker cleaner kill for the next bowhunter.
Back to the topic.... Ken, I know Ron Swarts from KME sharpeners used to sharpen heads for bowhunters, and does an incredible job, Im not sure if he still offers that service but if he does, its where id be sending BH's for sharpening. I have his contact details if you need them.
Over the years, there are 2 main reasons for wounded or lost big game iv seen. First is accuracy, simply not hitting the right spot. Second is broadhead failure, bending, breaking, curling, snapping.
When you state you've seen 4 GK heads break are you referring to the head type in the picture above?
A solid and a vented of each as I recall. One was on a Waterbuck bull in South Africa and the others on Water Buffalo. Not bashing at all just stating what iv seen. The genuine GK's are some of the best out there and I have a few buddys that exclusively shoot them with no problems, Just making the point that for ME Structural Integrity comes before sharpness, when it comes down to it.
The fella in the video is Rick Barbee. God Bless
If I'm not very mistaken, one other time you posted the picture of the bent TuffHead you also said it was bent when retrieving from a buffalo scapula when test shooting. Not bent when hitting the bone but bent when getting it out of the bone.
Is that correct?
Obviously, many head designs aren't made for shooting into the sand pit dozens of times and reusing, so thats not an option for some.
I've been bowhunting big game for about 30 years now and I can't think of an animal that I shot with a factory edge. I did shoot replaceable blades heads on and off so there may have been a couple, but normally I practiced with, and sharpened those as well (only practiced into foam with those).
Sharpening stuff is big part of bowhunting so I would encourage everyone to try and get proficient at it, but obviously there are many thousands of animals killed with factory edges with what was likely that broadheads first ever flight.
I have shot a decent number of critters with a filed-only edge and had really good success. Its a crude edge that dulls quickly and needs maintenance, but on deer sized game, it always penetrated well and left great trails.
Thanks, I was curious. I've been shooting the original Silver Flames off and on for about 8 years. I know they're still sharp enough to shave hair after several shits into a broadhead target. The only one I've ever damaged was one that hit a big rock directly out of a recurve on the end of a 560 grain arrow traveling 190 FPS. The blade literally shattered and the only thing left was the bent ferrule with the remaining blade in the middle. I was surprised but since I try not to shoot rocks I can't say how other heads have performed. BTW - The rock was really hard!
That video is good, it's a variation of how I do it which was based on a video from VPA site... I use a jewelstick to get it shaving sharp and then the strop with herb's Yellowstone compound to get that extreme ridiculous state of sharpness Nirvana...
This post places a premium on sharpness - which is good. Like TBM offered - I would gladly sharpen for free anyone's fixed 3 blade heads like the VPA...
As far as sharp, cutting arm hair doesn't lie. As some pointed out, a jagged edge can fool many.
There are fabulous steels out there and based on the ongoing interest in this topic (I started a similar thread some time ago with plenty of comments) it wouldn't surprise me if some savvy manufacturer is going to raise the ante on what steel it uses.
This is also an area where a competent test done by a magazine could really provide some empirical evidence on what's the sharpest/cuts best, both out of the box and after additional sharpening. Done at close range into/through an appropriate media, it could lend some real information. Otherwise we are basically stuck with "I use this and here's why I think they're the best." My 2 cents - I use ST's because my bow likes them and I can resharpen/replace them. As far as steel though, I see nothing that indicates that they are any better (or worse) than the competition.
Here's something slightly related...regarding the quality control at TuffHead Broadheads. First of all, like I mentioned they are extremely sharp out of the package literally ready to hunt.
I have seen a "defective" Tuffhead. It is not "defective". It may have a scratch in the ceramic coating but it is still a well made cutting instrument.
It will also never be packaged or sold, according to Joe Furlong, the owner. I tried to buy a few of them at a discounted price but Joe would NOT sell them at all.
Even though they are ridiculously sharp and still basically perfect, he does not want anyone to see them and mistakenly think that is the quality that TuffHead portrays. I think that is pretty good business.
pulled them out to test sharpness - superb edge.
I am very good at sharpening knifes and get create a great edge - but I cannot duplicate the Edge of the German Kinetics.
If someone wants a custom hone and even coatings like you would typically find on cutting tools to extend the life of their edges..... it can been done...for a price. It will be by quote and prices will vary by model, quantity, the surface finish and coating desired. Since the expense of the hunts were brought up... With all the planning and expense involved with such a hunt why would custom honing to your specifications be such a big deal. Shoot I fool with about everything to "make it my own". Our heads were originally built because we weren't happy with what was out there. It just evolved into a business.
