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Botswana Elephants
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Contributors to this thread:
DL 03-Jul-14
Bou'bound 03-Jul-14
JusPassin 03-Jul-14
Bou'bound 03-Jul-14
bohunner 03-Jul-14
JusPassin 03-Jul-14
Bigpizzaman 03-Jul-14
Medicinemann 03-Jul-14
safari 03-Jul-14
Shiloh 03-Jul-14
DL 04-Jul-14
bearhunter 04-Jul-14
Bigpizzaman 04-Jul-14
rock50 04-Jul-14
W.P. Archer 07-Jul-14
Fuzzy 08-Jul-14
Medicinemann 08-Jul-14
R. Hale 08-Jul-14
Medicinemann 08-Jul-14
R. Hale 08-Jul-14
LINK 08-Jul-14
DL 08-Jul-14
Fuzzy 10-Jul-14
Shiloh 11-Jul-14
From: DL
03-Jul-14
Have any if you read any of the reports on environmental damage from over population of elephants or seen pictures of what was once trees an now looks like a lunar landscape? Even some enviros are saying culling may need to be done because they are too dense populations of them for the environment to feed. Once the trees are gone every other food source gets scorched and dies. The animals that rely on them are going to starve. Of course man is being blamed. As human population grows it disrupts historical habitat for elephants causing them to stay in areas too long and they destroy all the plant life. Culling they say is also very expensive. Here's a novel thought. Allow hunting to cull the herds. The tens of thousands of USD it would bring in could also help in the fight against poaching. " We told ya so" just doesn't seem like a strong enough message.

From: Bou'bound
03-Jul-14
"we told you so"

is NEVER a strong or effective message with respect to anything involving humans.

From: JusPassin
03-Jul-14
You're likely correct. but there is just something inherently wrong headed about having kill something to save it.

From: Bou'bound
03-Jul-14
You can't kill something to save it ..........you kill some to save more

From: bohunner
03-Jul-14
JusPassin

YOu need to talk to GOD. GOD set up the system of People utilizing animals for the nourishment of their bodies and lives. GOd intended for people manage the animals as they see fit and killing some to sustain the rest is how it works. GOd made animals for people. It is inhertly perfect. God didn't screw up here. People that can't get the fact that death sustains life are who are screwing things up.

From: JusPassin
03-Jul-14
Well I'll have a talk with him tonight bohunner and I'll thank him for having you provide me with such an enlightened opinion.

From: Bigpizzaman
03-Jul-14
They just don't get the concept of "Renewable Resources" when it comes to African Animals! Allowing hunters to shoot Bison leaving Yellowstone, no problem. Elephants, no way??

From: Medicinemann
03-Jul-14
Man, this thread hurts......

From: safari
03-Jul-14
NBC reported two nights ago that hunting of elephants was banned in Botswana because they will be extinct in ten years

From: Shiloh
03-Jul-14
Why did y'all's trip get cancelled Medicineman, or did I miss that thread?

From: DL
04-Jul-14
American news agencies are moronic. Check this out, its AlJezera America.

Too many elephants in African parks? William G Moseley Last updated: 21 April 2013 High elephant numbers drive down total biodiversity, including other types of wildlife which tourists come to see.

africaenvironment

International environmental organisations have been working in southern Africa for decades to support parks and conservation efforts in the communities adjacent to them. While these efforts have been beneficial in some areas, an obsession with the protection of certain high profile species, such as the African elephant, has actually been counter-productive in some cases. While the numbers of African elephants are declining globally - and these animals certainly deserve protection in many regions - in other areas their numbers are so high that they are causing overall declines in biodiversity.

Botswana's Chobe National Park covers approximately 11,000 square kilometres and has an estimated elephant herd of 70,000. International visitors to the park are often treated to an amazing scene of hundreds of elephants bathing in the Chobe River or frolicking on nearby plains. But biologists estimate that the park actually has seven times the number of elephants it can reasonably support over time. The result is a landscape within the park that is heavily degraded as elephants - while a delight to those on photo safari - are incredibly destructive as they uproot trees and trample vegetation. High elephant numbers also drive down total biodiversity, including other types of wildlife which tourists come to see.

International conservation agencies have been working with communities around the Chobe National Park to encourage the conservation of elephants. In exchange for cooperation in elephant conservation, local communities receive a share of ecotourism revenues as a reward and to compensate them for crop losses due to raiding elephants. While support and collaboration with local communities is good and only fair, especially considering the costs people endure by living close to wildlife, the goal of protecting elephants at all costs seems misguided in this situation.

Making matters even worse is a recent Government of Botswana ban on hunting elephants. This ban not only further stresses the environment, but eliminates a significant revenue stream to local communities from international hunting permit sales.

So why do international conservation organisations and some governments, like that of Botswana, persist in the excessive protection of some sub populations of elephants even when it is bad for biodiversity and local livelihoods? The answer varies from an irrational obsession with - and narrow focus on - certain high profile species, to a more legitimate concern that the culling, or controlled killing, of elephants in some areas may foster hunting in other areas where elephant numbers are low.

Animal rights activists also decry the killing of any wildlife, much less elephants which are known to have strong familial bonds and mourn the loss of deceased members. Still others believe that culling will depress ecotourism revenues, either directly through a diminished safari experience or, indirectly, when international protests over controlled elephant culling dissuade tourists from visiting certain countries.

The reality is that many of these problems could be overcome. While a narrow focus on certain charismatic species may provoke an emotional response and related donations from western publics, an ecosystem approach considering the total health of environments would lead such publics to think about and appreciate total biodiversity. Furthermore, while controlled culling could fuel hunting in other areas if it were linked to trade in ivory, the destruction of tusks after organised culls would limit such a market and associated hunting.

Even animal rights might be partially assuaged if culls could be organised differently. While the traditional approach is the random thinning of animals, removing entire family units (while it sounds cruel) would minimise the sense of loss that related elephants often experience. There are also, of course, other means to control elephant numbers than culling, such as contraception and relocation, but the latter is especially limited because of cost.

Finally, the wildlife tourism experience in a place like Chobe National Park would not be reduced by even a halving of the resident elephant population. The reality is that tourists come to see a wide variety of wildlife and they are often disappointed, for example, if they do not see as many members of the Big Five (elephant, lion, buffalo, leopard and rhino) as possible. While elephants are a big initial attraction, tourists soon grow bored and want to see other animals, species whose counts are often reduced by overly high elephant numbers.

Global conservation organisations, some governments and ecotourists must move away from a paradigm of preservation at all costs of certain high profile species and adopt more of an ecosystem perspective. We must also realise that some species may be endangered or threatened at the international or regional scale, but actually exist in too high a number in some parks and conservation areas. This blindness to "too much of a good thing" is often detrimental to the livelihoods of rural people who live near parks, diminishes the ecotourism experience, and destroys biodiversity, the very objective of conservation.

William G Moseley is a human-environment geographer and professor at Macalester College in Saint Paul, Minnesota. He formerly served as a visiting scholar in the Department of Environmental Science at the University of Botswana, Gaborone.

From: bearhunter
04-Jul-14
I spent two weeks in botswana 3 yrs ago on safari after my hunt finished. It was like a wasteland in many areas. The trees were destroyed and even the safari operators that I thought may be antis were all in agreement that they needed to be hunted. Most saw the economic and environmental benefit to reducing through hunting. Unfortunately their elected officials see it different.

From: Bigpizzaman
04-Jul-14
African officials will follow money period. We (hunters) pay way more than "Greenies" but our GOVERNMENT throws our tax dollars into the mix we lose hunting. Our Government was all but kicked out of the last CITES convention for the interference, but you won't see that in the press either!!

From: rock50
04-Jul-14

rock50's embedded Photo
rock50's embedded Photo
We spent a day at Chobe National Park in May of this year. The guide said the last census of elephants was in 2000/2001 and the count was around 60,000. He said in an environment with no hunting and adequate food, the population would double in 15 years, and they now estimate there are over 100,000 elephants in the park.

Some experts agree the habitat is starting to suffer.

These lions took care of this calf laying in the back right of the pic.

From: W.P. Archer
07-Jul-14
Yep.... Glad to see those photo Safaries really doing their thing!

I wonder how many years it'll take for the local flora to get back to normal again....

From: Fuzzy
08-Jul-14
juspassin'" "You're likely correct. but there is just something inherently wrong headed about having kill something to save it. "

nothing wrong headed at all about it. you are removing individuals to promote the health, and/or survival of either: 1) the local herd 2) the area population or 3) the species....

if you've ever kept a garden the concept is similar...plant your carrots (corn, squash etc) ...and if they come up thick and you don't thin them...you've got nothing at the end but stunted plants which produce little, in some cases they even die out....

if you've farmed cattle, sheep, goats, other grazers, over-graze your pasture (too many animals for the acreage/conditions) and you lose your pasture, and your herd...

I could go on but you get the point

From: Medicinemann
08-Jul-14
Shiloh,

Four weeks prior to our departure, we were notified that our permits to bowhunt for elephant in Mozambique were revoked.

If I understand correctly, it is mostly a function of greed and corruption....with a dose of misinformed environmentalism sprinkled on top.

For example, I was told that some generals of armies of certain African nations have control over much of the black market ivory trade in their respective countries. Prohibiting hunting will increase poaching, resulting in more ivory, making them more money....and the misinformed environmental slant gives the local governments a great excuse to curtail hunting while increasing ivory stockpiles.

This is greatly oversimplified, but a quick synopsis of the situation from what I have been told. Ken Moody can provide a far more accurate and detailed explanation.....if he chooses to do so....

From: R. Hale
08-Jul-14
Medicinemann, Thank you for the update. I was really looking forward to the reports on this hunt. Very sorry it did not come off.

From: Medicinemann
08-Jul-14
R. Hale,

This years elephant bowhunt was going to be my personal "Superbowl".

In my own very small way, I can now relate to an athlete that trained for years to qualify for the 1980 Moscow Olympics only to learn that they were going to be boycotted by the US. I haven't really gotten into the groove for this Fall's hunts yet.....any hunt will be fun....they always are.....but after attempting to go for the largest land mammal in the world, everything else just seems....well.... smaller.

Don't get me wrong, I have been ridiculously fortunate to have experienced all of the bowhunts that I have able to do in my lifetime. I don't want to come across as unthankful....in nautical terms, I briefly felt like some air had been let out of my sails....

DL....my apologies....didn't mean to hijack your thread.....

From: R. Hale
08-Jul-14
Sir, I understand. My import permits were pulled on a Marco Polo hunt years ago. As you say, knocks the wind out of you.

Actually have a friend who qualified for the '80 Olympics that were boycotted...

I know it does not help much, but all who set goals and reach for them with gusto get knocked down at times.

Hope you can make an elephant hunt work out some time, it is one of life's great experiences.

PM with you email and I will send you a picture if that will help your spirits.

From: LINK
08-Jul-14
Fuzzy I bet JusPassin doesn't get it. Why is he even on this site.

From: DL
08-Jul-14
Love the input Medicineman. We are being witness to game mismanagement on a global scale.

From: Fuzzy
10-Jul-14
LINK, I am kinda glad juspassin' is here, maybe he'll learn sumpin' ;-)

From: Shiloh
11-Jul-14
I hate that for y'all. I was looking forward to reading about this one. Maybe it will come together at some point. There is no doubt those big critters will destroy parts of Africa if something is not done. I can't even begin to imagine the damage they can do!!

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