Bowsite.com

Kop is here.

Kops are here.

It's a plural thing.

Just say'n !

:^)

You forgot the word "that", in front of the word "there".

Title should read 'maniacal' head? I found that one goofy too!

He didn't have much longer to live with or without an arrow.

The simple non-anthropomorphic explanation is the lion was driven from the park by other lions. On his last legs. Wish the bowhunter had put a better shot on him but it is what it is.

The author did everything he could to negatively portray the taking of “Old Cecil” and somehow just had to get the word “illegal” into the report. So he wrote; “The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was killed outside the park on private land, meaning the killing wasn’t illegal.”

When he could have written; “The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was legally killed outside the park on private land.”

As one of the oldest and largest male lions in Zimbabwe, Cecil was known by park rangers and safari drivers alike—a popular tourist attraction for the thousands of visitors to the park each year.

But last week, the lion crossed just outside the park’s border, and a bow hunter shot the 13-year-old big cat. The hunters reportedly tracked down the wounded lion two days later, killing him with a rifle. The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association confirmed that Cecil was killed outside the park on private land, meaning the killing wasn’t illegal.

“There is an investigation ongoing at this time,” the group said in a statement. “We ask that members and non members refrain from speculating until all facts have been documented.”

Beks Ndlovo, chief executive of the African Bush Camps—a locally owned private safari company—said the hunting has to stop.

“I strongly object and vehemently disagree with the legalizing and practice of hunting lions in any given area,” Ndlovo said in a statement. “I will personally be encouraging Zimbabwe National Parks and engaging with government officials to stop the killing of lions and with immediate effect.”

RELATED: What's Worse Than Shooting Fish in a Barrel? Hunting Lions the Same Way

Bryan Orford, a longtime park visitor and former professional guide in Zimbabwe, had filmed and photographed Cecil on many occasions. The lion was an easy target for a camera, and probably not much skill went into the hunt, he said.

“I used to drive down the railway line road following Cecil and had to wait for him to get off the road,” Orford said. “This walking in front of the vehicle would go on for ages. Other times he would lie in the road, and you had to drive off the road to go around him. That is why it also seems so wrong to hunt something that easy.”

Orford said Cecil’s killing has brought lion hunting back into the spotlight, with pro- and anti-hunting advocates debating the ethics of killing an animal so close to the border of a protected national park.

One source familiar with the situation told National Geographic that hunters have been known to lure big game out of park boundaries with bait. It “indicates to me a level of desperation by the hunting operators,” the source said. “No big male lions remain in their hunting concession areas, despite their claims of ‘sustainable’ hunting practices.”

Despite Cecil’s importance to the region’s tourism—Orford said people would visit Hwange Lodges just to get a photo with him—the cat was also a walking example that old lions, which typically live between 10 and 14 years, can be useful ecologically.

The legend of Cecil started about three and a half years ago, when the then-10-year-old lion was kicked out of his pride, beaten by younger, more powerful males. Hunters argue that as loners, prideless male lions aren’t as important to sustaining lion populations—as they no longer have control of the lionesses to mate.

But Cecil wasn’t finished. He soon teamed up with another lone male named Jericho, and the lions regained control of the region’s two prides, one of which consists of three lionesses and seven cubs under seven months old.

So, Why Should You Care? Oxford University professor Andrew Loveridge, a behavioral ecologist who focuses on the conservation and management of African carnivores, told National Geographic that the loss of Cecil most likely spells the end of Jericho’s reign—and the possible loss of the pride’s cubs.

“Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory,” Loveridge said. “This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”

The fate of the hunters is yet to be determined, as Africa News 24 is reporting that there is no permitted quota to shoot lions in the Gwaai area—where Cecil was killed.

“The tourism operators, as well as the majority of the Zimbabwean population, are extremely passionate about the wildlife that we have worked hard to protect,” Ndlovo said. “And we will continue to do so to ensure the long term conservation of not only our National Parks but their surrounding vulnerable wilderness areas

It was more propaganda than anything. It gives basically one side of the story with plenty of slanted presumptions. One call to SCI would have provided plenty to make the story better rounded.

If you'll note, it's one of the same publications that tried to crucify the "Texas cheerleader" who enjoyed hunting.

It was even more slanted than most of what you read on, well, Bowsite.! :-)

a local "resident" get's taken out by a hunter, and it has nothing to do with was it "legal" or not. it's just not acceptable to the vast majoity of people.......even those that are otherwise neutral to the sport.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/07/27/man-allegedly-paid-55k-to-skin-behead-famed-african-lion/?intcmp=hphz24

From the article...

"Meanwhile, Cecil is still being remembered for his friendly attitude toward people, which made him the most photographed animal in the park."

Cecil the friendly lion, eh? I bet the children used to just line up to ride him like a pony and he was always eager to oblige them.

"According to the AP, this is not the first time Palmer has been in trouble for hunting. Palmer agreed to plead guilty in 2008 for lying to a federal agent about where he shot a black bear in Wisconsin. He was fined $3,000 and received probation."

Doesn't sound good.

Stupid media, can't trust any of them. :-)

"Meanwhile, Cecil is still being remembered for his friendly attitude toward people, which made him the most photographed animal in the park."

Cecil the friendly lion, eh? I bet the children used to just line up to ride him like a pony and he was always eager to oblige them."

And you dare speaking about stupid.

Seems the anti's are following bowsite and out in force..... and calling names as well.... cool.... A troll in the flesh...

I'm guessing the law (or what passes for it in that country) will play out, or hopefully at least the facts.

Until then I would pretty much ignore anything that comes from those sources and links above. Chemical imbalance.... a good steak would do em some good to get the brains functioning.....

We definitely shouldn't be defending him though.

More broadly though - trophy hunting like this is dying. The question we have to face as hunters is will we let it take down the rest of hunting?

Most non-hunters are very sympathetic to someone killing an animal to eat it. Most non-hunters are VISCERALLY GROSSED OUT by someone killing an animal for "sport," and can conceive of no reason whatsoever why anyone should want to or be able to kill a lion, elephant, rhino, etc (unless that animal is causing property damage etc which many of course are).

Now I say this FULLY KNOWING that the economics of having legal regulated hunts for these kinds of animals is actually generally beneficial to both their populations and those of other species, and I'm not trying to make a moral argument here.

But fundamentally, what we're dealing with is the failure of hunters to control their branding. What has happened to hunting is that it has in fact become "sport," with a competition for big antlers and a push for ever fancier, "sexier" gear, etc.

If we're going to save hunting for future generations, we need to push hard to recast hunting in its TRUE light - woodsmanship, conservation, food gathering, and an almost spiritual connection to the land and its animals. We all know that's what hunting is about.

But it's pretty hard to sell that image when a rich dude drops 50K to shoot a collared lion out of a National Park (even in error). "Trophy" hunting like this isn't going to make it. It's just not. There's incredibly strong public opinion against it and it's only a matter of time. I personally think the strategy to save hunting ISN'T to stand behind this guy or this kind of hunt, but rather to acknowledge how DIFFERENT it is from what the vast majority of hunters are doing.

(Again, I'm NOT making a moral argument, I'm making a practical argument).

But seriously guys I know Walt Palmer, there is more to this story than you will read in a one sided yellow journalism piece. Pleas reserve judgement until the FACTS are out!

Remember guys this is not Zimbabwe it is the America and a guy is still supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I think Mr Palmer has enough problems without people on here jumping to conclusions based on biased journalism.

I read the Jimmy Kimmel actually was visibly emotional talking about it last night and had some choice names for the hunter. Asked for donations to the research group.

We should never back down from what is right, but one has to practice good judgment in lieu of the big picture.

I'm not saying anything was done wrong here, but would not be surprised with that much $$ involved. I know one thing....this dentist has HUGE regret right now.....

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him"

Who has challenged the media on their side of the story and Mr. Palmer deserves his time at the podium.

If I can hunt bears in my state doing it legally, so can he, and it takes me 10 years to get a tag, when I at one time I could get one every 3 years......

Sad story, and bad for the hunting community.

Not so, Brot, not so.

One of the major problems is that with blogs, online magazines, etc anybody can be a "journalist."

By the way, we were getting the same "True and balanced journalism is as dead...." from the antis every time I wrote a hunting/conservation story for the Wall Street Journal, or other non-outdoors publication.

I've even gotten it on some things I've done for Wichita.

It goes both ways.

PETA, HUSUS and all the rest of the anti hunting groups are celebrating the death of Cecil. The facts of this case no longer matter. Their agenda has already moved light years ahead.

Absolutely. This is nothing but good news and a rallying point for anti-hunting and ARA groups. Think of it like the wacko who committed the SC church murders and represented himself wrapped in the confederate flag. One terrible incident caused how many people and entities to run toward political correctness? This lion hunter will be as vilified as any moral criminal (deserved or not) and sport hunting will be the focal target...akin to the flag. So much damage done by one terrible act.

This is being circulated by Ant Williams, editor-in-chief of African Hunter Magazine. Clearly it was an illegal hunt. Not so clear as to the complicity of Palmer. Good read of facts so far.

"My world is abuzz with rumours of a "jaws" of a lion taken with a bow in Zimbabwe. Can anyone confirm? said to be an absolute beast. Green with envy"

Maybe green, but doubt much envy left..... what a thing to have you and your family's life destroyed over....

Tim nobody knows a man except himself and God ! Perfect example Dennis Radar serial killer 1974 to 1991.

I hope for PY sake they had no idea of his wildlife convictions .If they did and allowed him to remain a member of the club what fair chase message is being sent, ethics are out the window.

1) Most importantly, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions that what walt did was illegal or even ethically questionable. The matter is under investigation and once the facts are known, judgement can be rendered. 2) If the lion wandered out of the park and it wasn't baited or tracked, well that's the breaks. One of the functions of parks is to provide an ecological reservoir so populations can thrive and eventually, spread out of park boundaries. 3) At 13 or so, Cecil was getting long in the tooth. Yes we would all rather that he was torn apart by rival males (sarcasm here) rather than harvested by a hunter who is putting tens of thousands of dollars into the local economy, but it sounds like he and his pride co-leader had their run and produced their progeny. When Cecil and bud took back control of the prides, any cubs not fathered by them were slaughtered too. Nature is efficient and to the winner go the spoils (some call it cruel) 4) Properly managed hunting is the best thing that has happened to game animals (hundreds of millions pumped into wildlife management, habitat protection, etc by hunters)

Non talking points but things to ponder: 5) Probably a good idea to research and know ahead of time about any celebrity animals in the area. I'm not saying don't take it if it is a clean, legal, ethical kill shot, but think about the consequences. 6) Make sure you book with an operation that has a solid, clean reputation. I'm not hearing his hunt company defending the hunter, and that leaves the question out there. 7) The importance of making a good shot. If Walt had let all the air out of Cecil on the spot, it would have been a cleaner ending. 8) If (and only if) this guy is dirty, the hunting community should be prepared to draw a clean line between what Walt did and what ethical hunters do.

CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them . 1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life. My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general. There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ... A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE – To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life

"To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate"

I don't care if your a bird hunter, deer hunter, bow, gun or slingshot it is important to adhere to the above statement. I have been asked repeatedly about this by people who really only know what they are seeing on the news. Given half a chance I can explain right and wrong and at the very least get them to see that just because we hunt we are not all bloodthirsty yahoo's that the media would like them to think we are. Then the door is open to really explain the conservation side of the argument and why we do what we do.

"Hunting in Africa, saves animals, puts money in the economy and feeds people......

This was a selfish act, by and individual, who just did not care, and it will hurt hunters worldwide.....

If, and only if, after the facts come out, and this was indeed a poaching act, than if I was in the Pope and Young board, I would remove all this guys stuff,,,,,,

Why? Because too many legitimate hunters, who worked hard, and hunted hard the right way, would be dishonored..........

Also, have we forgotten about why we hunt? Have many gotten so far removed, from what the hunt is all about, that its now, have a score card, and a check off list,,,,,,,,,

Each of us should reflect, and each of us, have been tested, and tempted, and we should always remember to do the right thing, and hunt fair chase,,,,,,,, "

then I said this, because I believe in fair chase and hope the facts come out, for the better and not the worst,,,,,,

but no matter what the outcome is, I just stated that, because of how I felt...

stay well

Extremely well said

All that said I say that the murder of 60 million babies is at least a billion times worse than the killing of a lion. Neither are right , but lets get our priorities in place. Isis and abortion are the real problems of the day along with the wicked people that are supposed to be the leaders of this once mighty nation but in fact are traitors that love our enemies and hate our friends.

God bless, Steve

Guy is a super slammer, compound bow, not crossbow. Any way you slice it that is a LOT of bowhunting in more conditions, climate and cultures than most of us can even imagine. It's very likely he had been scammed thinking they had the quota permit, all legal. That is what makes the most sense to me, but we don't know. He had a license for lion issued by the country. Even the country is saying he's not really a suspect, the outfitters and guide are. If they had no quota tag for that area.... they took their client on a poaching trip.

Does a person pay $55,000 to poach a lion in a foreign country? I know some think money is no object for many, but really? This wasn't Bill Gates, he's a dentist. He obviously could afford it I would guess, but I'm sure it wasn't pocket change.

So far the bits and pieces coming from their own government is saying the hunter has been cooperating and they have no issue with him, it's the operators they have problems with.

That is the whole problem with this. Folks going off with little to no info. Projecting their own issues into it that have nothing to do with the incident (damn rich hunters...horn porn, trophy hunting, etc....) just as much as the anti-hunters are.

Personally I'm going to hold off throwing this guy under the bus until I hear all the story and all the FACTUAL evidence. So far the media and a good many other folks are way off base WRT the facts.

Tim was right in another thread, sometimes we are our own worst enemy. If it turns out this guy was scammed on the hunt an awful lot of folks should be lining up to apologize to him. Somehow, as right as it would be.... I don't see it happening....

If you are leopard hunting and a lion walks in then a decision has to be made. It sounds like the decision turned out not to be the right one.

the reason is simply they hate animals being killed and that is the same outcome regardless of description.

if anyone thinks this would be less of a public issue, or the rancor would be any less, if there was not a question that Cecil was taken 100% legally, the hunt cost $500 vs. $50,000, and it died within 5 yards and 5 seconds of the arrow striking has no clue as to the mindset of those who oppose sport hunting.

One other question if you went to Dr. Palmer to get some dental work done are you responsible to know if he is properly licensed? Is it your responsibility as the client to know if he is using approved and lawful methods of dentistry to do the work or is it his as a paid professional? I am aware of what the law says but really what is the difference?

But as the old saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Hunters are busted every year in different states or countries for game offenses, and a lot of those are on guided hunts. After all, we are the ones that are pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.

Do you think if Dr. Palmer had it to do over again he would have paid a little more attention to where he was at and that he had proper permits to hunt lion there. I think he would.

And yes, I do research any professional I go to whether they are a Physician, Dentist, Attorney, etc.

I have been on a couple of big game hunts and rarely have I ever known exactly what property I was on nor could I have verified it if I had wanted to. I always researched my outfitter and got multiple references but after that I took his word and everyone I know has done exactly the same.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I would like to point out that the law about who is responsible to make sure the law is followed after you pay someone a lot of money because the law says you have to to make sure you follow the law is a little ridiculus

At the same time.... if the lawyer asked me to lie on the stand about something.... and I knowingly lie.... then I AM responsible.

We shall see. IMO it all centers around if the hunter KNEW what they were doing was wrong/illegal. i.e. if in fact they had a leopard permit and on a leopard hunt and shot a lion that came in.... that would be knowingly breaking the law.

If the hunter was on a lion hunt, was told all the paperwork was cleared, etc. and then this all blew up after taking a lion.... then he has been victimized himself. IMO a crime committed against him. He trusted the licensed professionals he had hired and they scammed him. Like buying a car form someone to find out the papers are forged and the car is stolen. Are you now a car thief?

It does boil down in the case and in all cases what was the hunters intent. How in the world would anyone on the street, in the media, or on this site have the faintest idea what a particular hunters intent was at this point? Although plenty of people here and elsewhere seem to think they know.

I'm a DNR Game Commissioner in WV and I have to make every reasonable effort to make sure that every time I go hunting or fishing everything is 100% legal and above board because I am representing the State of WV.

If I'm on a guided hunt I ask to see the outfitters licenses and maps of where we are hunting. I also make an effort to read the regulations for that particular state. After all, if the outfitter wants to see my license and take info down why shouldn't I be able to ask the same of him?

I was on an elk hunt in BC in an area where a bull had to have at least 6 pts on one side to be legal. The guide and another hunter saw a nice bull broadside and it looked like a good 6 pt. bull so the hunter shot it. Unfortunately it only had I set of brow tines instead of 2., and it was a 5 pt. The elk ended up getting confiscated and the guide and hunter both got fined. Completely understandable mistake in most everyone's opinion but the law is the law. Some may think the officer should have let it slide but if he had of it would have been picked up somewhere down the line and come back on the officer.

IDK, maybe I'm just too anal LOL

Our take on this whole debacle, our views on how this scenario most likely played out...

1. Palmer books...is sold a lion hunt in Zimbabwe through bushman safaris / Bronkhorts

2. P/hunter / operator have an agreement with said land occupier on Antoinette for the hunting rights to the property, which is roughly 4500acres in extent, it is an old railway farm... Several other properties ajoin and general location falls in the gwaai conservancy area. It is very close to the hwange park boundary , as is several of the other properties and forestry commission areas.

3.the operator has other areas in the matabeleland north area, one of which has a lion on quota for 2015. However the only property where you will get a lion on bait fairly easily is Antoinette as it is right on the park boundary. Most of these areas only the rail track between Bulawayo and Vic Falls which demarcates the boundary between said areas and hwange national park.

4. Operator thinks, let's bait hunt on Antoinette , we shoot the lion if we get a good male on bait, we then skin the animal, change camps, head back to the other area that does have a lion on quota. People will not know we shot the lion elsewhere...or something along these lines..

5. Palmer arrives for his hunt, if the lion was the main species sought, obviously the hunters start on Antoinette property.. Bait is shot, drag the park boundary , maybe even a caller with lions roaring was used, we don't know, but highly likely - they are hunting on PRIVATE land, so no need to hunt with a parks ranger.

6. Hunting party gets a lion to come onto the property, Palmer can't believe his luck, MGM lion. They shoot at it....and wound the lion. Being so close to the park, the lion heads back into the park.

7. P/hunter and operator, landowner now have egg on their faces, you can't tell the client, sorry chap your lion has gone bad luck... They hv palmers $50k. To show nothing is really amiss... Hunting party/p hunter make a report to main camp, national parks main head quarters for that section of hwange park, "we hv wounded a lion, and it has left our property and has crossed into the park". They are assigned a ranger to accompany them back to where lion crossed back into the park,to follow up the wounded cat. (By law in Zimbabwe reporting of wounded dangerous game needs to be made if possible within 24 hrs. To nearest appropriate authority, in this case national parks.cat is followed up and killed.

8. In the meantime hunter/landowner go into overdrive... What's our best option here, how do we sort this problem... Ok, let's get permission for quota transfer between our properties. This is either denied, or the parks officers at main camp are so on the ball, they check up on the land owners quota for 2015 - bingo, they are busted.... How many days it takes for this to play out is debatable , given that lion was followed up, killed. Trophy is then skinned out, head removed, so you can boil to get the skull.. And the trophy had already be moved from the property.

9. At this point it's pretty plausible Palmer doesn't know any better. He's thinking what a monster lion I just got. Hunts on another of the operators properties and then heads home to the states.thinking I hv just had the best safari etc...

10. Quota transfer doesn't get approved, and the researchers by now see their collard subject not moved much in the past few days.. Other lions killed along the hwange park boundary this year, WITH a proper quota allocation and permit etc, the p/hunter notified the research guys, return the collar etc..its forgotten about a few weeks after... That lion is now a statistic in the data base, location killed,date killed etc lion doesn't have a name, no photo lodge close by who know the lions every move, no controversy . End of the story.

11.in the meantime, research guys or local lodge guides get to hear "Cecil" hunted and killed.... "Did you know property had no quota".... These guys tried to pull a move with "quota transfer"....."collar apparently tried to be destroy".. It gets spread around on social media, and before you know it, it's gone viral.... WORLDWIDE.

12. It's now not something that a fist full of us$ into corruptible officials hands that can make the problem go away... It builds momentum by the hour, and Officials begin to investigate, and well the rest is history as we all know

So from our side, I would say mr Palmer has VERY little chance of being prosecuted in Zimbabwe. At the end of the day, the professional hunter who is guiding the client and whose name appears on the TR2 hunt authority form, is in charge of the hunt. The buck stops with him!! So if Palmer did shoot the lion on instruction from the professional hunter. It would be p/h's word against clients word if Palmer eventually or EVER for that matter was to appear before a Zimbabwe court of law.

My money would be on the hunter & landowner being prosecuted , and not the client. We continue to follow the proceedings.

Expert says Jericho's collar sending out normal movements

A wildlife expert from South Africa claims Jericho is alive and well.

Drew Abrahamson wrote on Facebook: "Jericho's collar is sending out normal collar movement up untill 20 mins ago!

He also posted this image apparently showing the lion's movements.

Maybe if CNN and USA today blow this one, they'll just go away. Wishful thinking.

Who was the PH? There's no way that @sshole wasn't up to his neck in it. Regardless of whether Palmer was ignorant, get's extradited or not, that guy deserves to get what is coming to him. Unfortunately it already leave a bad and VERY public smell.

I'd like to think that this forum makes some effort at weeding out the bad apple outfitters and guides in the US and nearby - recall the mexican hunt operator who was ripped up one side and down the other on this forum a few months ago for his unethical conduct. Let's get the operator's name on this forum. More information will undoubtedly continue to come in, but based on what I've already read I am ready to write off any solidarity/association as a hunter with this mess.

Who benefits, and what changes if we get word today that the lion was legally killed on proper land with proper documentation, it was not lured off the preserve, it died within 5 minutes of the shot, and all the other allegations were false. In fact the only thing that is the same in both that new reality and the original story of lies was that the lion is dead.

it only matters to a few people (Palmer and the guys he contracted with). He now, from a legla perspective be "safe". He is still a pariah and his business and life are otherwise trashed, but he is safe legally.

Other than that it matters not to anyone else. The damage is done, the martyr-cat has served it's purpose, hunting has been vilified, etc.

No anti-hunter has ever said i support legal hunting it is the illegal stuff that i vehemently oppose.

Damage done.