Bowsite.com

talk about publicity SA does not need,,,,,,,,,,

so many hard working PH's and efforts by SCI etc to keep game strong and then we have this idiot, who will paint many with the wrong brush,,,,,,,

Agree it is very bad PR. Might or might not be the hunters fault.

It's all the same to the general public. An arrow is an arrow to them.

The fascinating part to me is how much negativity this draws out from both sides of the hunting fence (playing the hypothetical that everything was done legally). Weird how when it comes to certain animals we care so much more than if it was just a deer or impala or black bear...

But I don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald fired a single round either.

If he is innocent, then he is innocent. If he is guilty of game law violations then he should be called out by the hunting community on it. As hunters, we have to denounce illegal and unethical hunting. In the future if we don't then the 80% of the non hunting ( not anti hunting) population will judge us by our inaction.

Bil V

1) The lion was killed with a bow - the lion was killed with a crossbow. This alone begs the question how valid the information we're receiving really is, because crossbow has the connotation of a 'poachers' weapon. From his hero photo, it's clearly a compound bow.

2) The lion was killed outside the game reserve on private land - the lion was killed outside the reserve on land where hunting lions is prohibited.

3) The carcass of an animal was drug around behind a vehicle luring the lion away from the reserve - the lion was baited.

The media around here has no clue how hunting in Africa works so they want to blame the hunter, not the professional hunter or guides. He's closed his dentist office for the time being but people are going there are leaving stuffed animals by the door.

Here's my take, the only violations that may be in question is the baiting. If you can bait lions with a carcass of another animal and he shot the animal on land that the professional hunter said was legal to hunt and he had a valid tag, then there really is no debate. Also, is it legal to shoot animals with collars in Africa? Was the collar visible when he shot? They aired footage of the lion when he was alive and I really couldn't make it out. I think protecting live animals with a collar is a very stupid practice, because now it places ownership on a wild animal. In MN for example it is legal to shoot bears with collars for that very reason. From what I've heard, the hunter has not been contacted by the authorities in Africa, but two guys in Africa are in court.

It would appear most people are upset about intent, like the animal was specifically targeted. One news media said this lion had a black mane making him quite distinguishable from other male lions. To me that just seems like another log on the fire.

I have no knowledge of this American or his ethics. I'm 100% sure some things are misrepresented in the stories and reporting. If even a fraction of this stuff is true it plays very badly for hunters who mainly or often hunt to add trophies to a collection.

I read the Jimmy Kimmel actually was visibly emotional talking about it last night and had some choice names for the hunter. Asked for donations to the research group.

We should never back down from what is right, but one has to practice good judgment in lieu of the big picture.

I'm not saying anything was done wrong here, but would not be surprised with that much $$ involved. I know one thing....this dentist has HUGE regret right now.....

There's no digging out of this for the hunter.

This wasn't a case of a guy shooting an animal to later find out he shot a celebrity lion.

This wasn't a bison that strayed over the line in Yellowstone.

This was akin to shooting Mickey Mouse.

Thanks to him we all look like the stereotype(s) we hate.

This was just sheer stupidity.

Even to our bowhunting community, lots of N. American hunters don't get Africa and how some of that works...

The alleged hunter Walter Palmer is a Super Slammer, and I believe all his animals are registered with P&Y. He is a well respected hunter and dentist.

Some of the facts are weird... I am actually shocked that a Zimbabwe Lion hunt would got for only $50k. The places in S. Africa (where game is owned by the property owner and most ranches have fencing), Our African PH had a catalog of Lions you could take, most were in the $75k to $100K plus range.

Almost all Lion hunting and Leopard hunting is either spot and stalk or baited- so the baiting thing really is not shocking or something not commonly practiced for harvesting such an animal.

I guess my gut says, if he was hunting in an open zone, with proper permits, taking this known lion has more to do with political agenda than the ethics of how it was done...

None the less I'm sure he will get a bad wrap due to the publicity.

I guess I am also a bit suprised to read that he used a Crossbow- that does not seem to fit with his archery hunting here in N. America. Probably another misstated fact.

You know your statements to be FACT?

Even IF and I say IF he is guilty why would it give me/us a Blackeye? Aren't we told daily not to judge the actions of one to a group??

You can buy into this Liberal B.S. but I won't!!

Micky Mouse?? Really? WOW!

Too much time in the Northeast Bro!

Statements like that I find disturbing, legal or otherwise. It's sounds much like reading the menu on the wall at McDonalds and choosing which one you want, even if that isn't the case.

Bad for us all. Unfortunately, a lot of big dollars is making more and more hunting go this way.

Now they have arrested two of his guides and want to question him about possible poaching. Likely a show to quell the outrage..

this guy is going thru the ringer, no doubt about that

"Because shooting #CecilTheLion in the park would have been illegal, he needs to be extradited, charged, &, preferably, hanged."

However, I don't know the details of this particular hunt. Again, these are the types of stories the liberal anti-hunting media salivate over. Unfortunately, as we have seen recently in many police actions lately the media and people are quick to jump on and declare someone guilty before the facts are known. Like I said before, wait till all the details are presented before jumping to conclusions one way or the other. If he is truly found guilty of game or law violations then the hunting community should condem this type of activity.

"Our African PH had a catalog of Lions you could take, most were in the $75k to $100K plus range."

Statements like that I find disturbing, legal or otherwise. It's sounds much like reading the menu on the wall at McDonalds and choosing which one you want, even if that isn't the case.

Are you blind to the fenced whitetail and elk herds here in the states? Go pick a deer from a picture and pay by the inch for steroid fed 300" deer. This poor guy is never going to be the same again. Mostly because of the liberal/anti-hunting PETA loving media. Amazing how this crap happens isn't it.

I stand by that sentiment without apology.

I think collectively our country is off-kilter when there's more outrage about this lion being wounded and killed and did suffer than MILLIONS of babies being aborted and now baby parts being sold and not nearly as much outrage??? Apparently, some people want the guy killed and hunted down and his dental practice shut down. Feigned anger and selective outrage are making this a crazy world to live in for sure.

On Inside Edition today they said the "authorities" plan to charge him(not sure exactly with what) and he could get 8 years in prison.

Im shocked with the past wildlife conviction he was still allowed to be a member of PY? He did violate PYs fair chase rules . The PY club has become a target due to this . And why would he be allowed to enter animals in a super slam club if he is a convicted of a wildlife crime ?

Rutnut its not just antis its folks on the fence that this upsets . With this social media it only hurts us hunters .

SCI has suspended the membership of the hunter as well as the PH until " the facts " become clear.

If we are lucky, we will actually learn the facts in time, instead of the hysteria from groups like PETA.

By law you can't take meat home from Africa. But ask the guys that have hunted there, it all gets eaten.

My understanding is the hunter had a "lion license" sold to him by the government, but have to hunt them in an area that has a quota permit. Apparently this area did not. Unscrupulous outfitters or guides will take game in one place and use the quota permit from another to tag it. Besides being "famous" this lion was collared. They knew exactly where he was. That wasn't going to fly with this one.

Other rumors are there were gov officials paid to look the other way on these "transfers". Guess in Africa everybody has their hand out....

If they skinned it and then remover the head I'd be pizzed. You would think they would want to cape out the head and keep the hide all one piece to get a decent mount.... that's the way I've seen it done. A guy here I know is a pretty good taxidermist, killed an African lion (rifle). When he got everything together and ready he flew in a guy from TX that specialized in big cats to do the mount. Was at his house just before the TX taxi showed up and he says "check out that drum" I open the lid on a 55 gal drum to look in and there's a tanned lion head floating in solution "looking" at me.... made my hair stand up... funny feeling even when you know it's dead....

The people tracking it probably did, but how can you say the PH knew where he was? I read they were a mile from the border of the park. I'm sure there's other lions around the area. Wow, you convict the guy before you even understand the facts.

I'm betting when the dust settles it will be found that the dentist isn't charged with anything. If anyone is at fault, it's the PH for violating the quota...if it existed.

And as for his bear hunt, I don't know the details of what he really did. Perhaps he was near the border of the area and accidentally crossed into another unit. I'm sure none of you have ever accidentally done that. Just because he pleaded guilty to something doesn't mean he was guilty of that...it's called plea bargaining. I've seen it happen where it's the easiest, cheapest, and safest way out of a mess like that.

The PH didn't know where he was. The Park did. That is why they couldn't do a quick swap on the quota. If not likely nobody the wiser, officials were paid for, kill a lion, swap the quota, a done deal.

My understanding there are a good number of lions in the park....they were just hoping a lion would move out of it, maybe check their bait. They'd have to be mental to target that specific lion. My bet is they loaded their shorts when they finally got the lion and realized what happened.

If you have prior speeding tickets does that automatically make you at fault in an accident? Each case is individual and should be investigated and treated as such.

Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation new member posted 30 July 2015 20:11 Hide Post Information we have just received from some senior officers at Zimbabwe parks H.Q in Harare . A few points of interest -:

As far as national parks are concerned, they have no issue with the client. He complied like any other hunting client is required to.

Everyone at Harare HQ are intrigued with the "Cecil " hype... Each and everyone of them ask the same questions that 95% of other Zimbabwe citizens are asking.... Who is Cecil? They had never heard of this lion...until news broke on social media. Everyone at main camp national parks station in hwange when asked about Cecil , said "we do not know of this lion, you had better talk to lion researchers maybe they can give you more information"

There was a board meeting today at the HQ which was attended by senior staff and board members. Even in this meeting people where asking "who is Cecil"? With some of the board members who had recently visited hwange saying, if he was as famous as the media have made him out to be, how come we did not get to know of Cecil ..??

The issue of quota transfer came up for discussion. I have it on good authority from several of the board members that this diabolical practice has been stopped with immediate effect.. At last,

It's a pity something like this has to happen to influence basic conservation decisions.

I simply cannot imagine the guy paying $50k to poach a lion. That just doesn't make any sense at all. For all you "bowhunters" hanging this guy, well, you should just sign up with PETA, cuz you're doing their dirty work for them.

I sure as hell don't know this guy but have to ask you:

Do you really believe this guy would pay 55k to go poach a lion? please no BS, just answer that question.

I cannot come up with any way in my mind a person would decide to pay tht kind of coin to go poach anything.

Guys, this is very commonplace and negates record books IMO. Takes money to have the opportunity. Just the way it is and has been for over 40 years. Do you think the guy with several species registered in Safari Club, or even P&Y did it sitting in their normal deer stand with a little Tink's 69?

Big 5 African hunts are expensive. It's a world class adventure, not a treestand in the backyard. That some can do it more power to them. I hunt every week all year. I dream adventure hunts every day. I'd love to do a lion or leopard hunt. Buff maybe. Heart thumping stuff, not some lil shaky case of buck fever.

Scary to me, I can see myself getting screwed on a hunt like this, I trust the folks I'm hunting with to have it all worked out if they say it's all worked out. Honestly I hunted Canada once and never saw my tag till I signed and punched it. Thought that was how they did it there. For all I know they went in and got the tag after I shot the bear. Trusting, gullible.... yeah, probably. As I saw stated on bowsite by some folks who regularly hunt Africa.... they don't honestly know if the game they took was on the up and up.... it's a very confusing place with daily changing regulations and then local "rules"...

Once the lion was on the ground I bet all heck broke loose. But I certainly don't begrudge anyone for lion hunting, sheep hunting or any other legal hunting. What they paid for it is not my business.

To me this isn't about hunting at all really. It's about unscrupulous outfitters and guides. To the hunter, more power to em if that's their choice of hunt.

and lee harvey oswald was an expert sniper. so what does marksmanship have to do with how one's uses their talent?

the lion was wounded and lived for 40 hours and had to be polished off with a gun. must have pulled that shot or it maybe was longer than 100 yards.

and lee harvey oswald was an expert sniper. so what does marksmanship have to do with how one's uses their talent?

the lion was wounded and lived for 40 hours and had to be polished off with a gun. must have pulled that shot or it maybe was longer than 100 yards.

If the dentist placed his trust in the bear outfitter and got a bad deal; and if the dentist placed his trust in the lion outfitter and got a bad deal; in both cases laws were (by all appearances and logic) violated when the animals were killed. Does a hunter gain immunity from or clemency for these violations? If a bad outfitter (I've hired) tells me I'm good to kill a (illegal) sheep today and I take him at his word, should I get any leniency for my violation? Or am I 100% responsible for knowing the laws of whatever venue I find myself hunting in, and then following those laws?

Does this seem to follow the old "If you lay down with dogs you'll get up with fleas" warning?

How smart does a dentist need to be to keep himself on the right side of the laws?

How much legal risk is a guy willing to take to build his trophy collection?

How many times do you claim bad luck before it becomes bad judgment...and then bad behavior?

Point taken. Not too different from going in for a simple cleaning and coming out with a root canal.

Come on America get a grip on reality. Do you ever wonder how these people get time to protest? Do they work for a living?

I bet ole' Dr. Palmer will be doing a few less cleanings and root canals in the future.

Friends, for the past couple of days I've been pounded with PM's, emails, FB messages and even text messages (phone calls I'm sure too) asking me for my opinion on the Zim lion case of late? Well, let me first say this - I'm still in Africa - where I've taken 2 lions in the past two weeks. So I've been having more fun than anything, but the messages won't stop - so I'll address it publicly (with what I think I know) and those who give a darn can take it from there.

Firstly, it's a lion - it's not "Cecil", or Bob, or Sammy, or any other damn human name. It's a wild lion, living in a wild national park, period. Greenies love to attach human names/emotions to wild animals, but the fact remains. When Simba sees Pumba, he kills Pumba, period!!!!!

When I first heard/saw this issue, I was under the impression it was simply a case of a hunter legally shooting a collared lion, in a legal hunting area, under legal hunting conditions. Which in my opinion is 100% acceptable. If you need an explanation as to why, ask Dr. Easter, Dr. White, or any other legit scientist. It should be self explanatory to be frank! If anything was in fact illegal however - then that obviously changes everything. I simply am not 100% sure of the circumstances so I must at least refrain from casting stones until proof is presented beyond a reasonable doubt!

I too shot a huge maned lion on Antoniette (same property) in 2002, weeks prior to the land invasions. Back then all was totally square, as was all the hunting. The lion I shot was also collared, and yet we had no idea of this until we walked up to him - and there it was. He was so well maned, that seeing it was virtually impossible from any distance at all. A point I make for Mr. Palmer, more so than anyone. Dr. Loveridge came and collected his collar the following day, thanked us for calling him, told me about my lion and carried on without any issue at all (I read he's now singing a different tune on this one, but likely he knows more about this lion than does the rest of us).

I obviously have no idea what the outfitter/PH knew, but I highly doubt Mr. Palmer knew anything about "Cecil". I follow lions more than most, and I've never seen/heard of him? The lion that is supposedly Africa's most famous lion?? If however either the outfitter, or client, knew about this particular lion and his status, even I would question the motives for hunting him? I simply think I would pass, and not because I disagree with hunting collared lions - but some things just aren't worth the trouble they cause - including a big maned lion. If any part of the hunt was illegal - then all the rest is really a moot point, as the entire act was illegal. Then the question is, who's responsible? In my opinion - that responsibility falls upon the outfitter/PH, especially considering the hunter is from a foreign country.

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

I fight for the right to shoot / hunt what science and the hunting community has determined is an acceptable lion to take, which really amounts to two simple criteria. Old/mature enough male, without dependent cubs. This lion was supposedly 13 yrs old (I hugely question that in the wild) clearly old enough for hunting if that's in fact the case. It's also been reported the lion was the father of little cubs - if so, that's a problem. But if the pride stayed within the park, there's a decent chance the hunter didn't know that, how could he? Again, seeing it from all sides - the best we can, is important IMO.

As for "luring" the lion out of the park, unless you are an experienced cat hunter in Africa - your opinion on this matter is worthless. If they used an electronic call however, that's illegal and a different story!

I suppose I personally am less likely to want to hang Mr. Palmer from the get-go (prior to all facts being presented) because I way more than most, can sympathize. I can absolutely guarantee you all, nobody on planet earth gets more hate mail / death threats regarding the hunting of the lion - than do I, period! Hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of them! Multiple petitions to shut down my FB page, stop me from entering Tanzania, etc, etc, etc. It never stops - ever!!!!!

And whenever an incident like this happens the frequency rapidly increases, as do the vile, disgusting things people say. Honestly, I have lost any/all sense of respect for every single person who slightly / in the least, opposes legal hunting. When men and women are threatening my family, my girlfriend and anyone else associated with me simply cause I'm a lion hunter, then I'm a mad mother fu**er! When my girlfriend is in tears over the VERY recent death of her brother and some anti tells her he killed himself because she's a hunter, I'm a mad mother fu**er! When they tell her they plan to kill her son so she too can feel the loss of a child, I'm a mad mother fu**er!!! When they tell me they hope myself and my family are beheaded by ISIS, I again am a mad mother fu**er!!!

So, for those that think I'm sometimes a bit more callus or not sensitive enough to the issues brought about by the non hunting / anti hunting public, perhaps the above paragraph explains it a bit more. I refuse to ever again give one single inch to these clowns, these cowards, these most uneducated, mis-informed, mis-guided, godless, narrow minded hypocrites! When your only argument is to threaten, name call and chastise others - you know then you have no argument at all.

I AM HUNTER! For that I make no excuses, no apologies, I back down to no one, and I hide from it not! United we stand, or devided we fall - it's up to us to decide??? I'm armed at all times, and I'm ready - either step up or shut up!! My money, my time and my efforts go to Lion hunting/conservation, for that I am proud!

PaStringKing....thanks for sharing.....

I grew up reading Roark and Capstick books and wanted the experience. I've killed 3 of the big five, I could have killed an elephant but didn't see anything over 30 lbs. because of cost and importation bans I'll never kill an elephant or rhino, but that's ok with me. I had 3 great African hunts, but I would like to go back someday for a second Cape buffalo.

This is somewhat off topic but one of the best "looks on someones face" I have ever seen was when the president of the US Fish and Wildlife is standing in front of a room of SCI board members trying to explain why they stopped the importation of ivory.

A man stood up and said..."I just want to ask you one question...Have you or anyone on your committee ever actually been to Zimbabwe or Tanzania?"

They stood there and had to honestly shake his head NO...because not ONE person on the US Fish and Wildlife board had ever stepped foot in either of those two countries. Instant deer in headlights.