Bowsite.com

Good luck, Robb

Arizona Arkansas Connecticut Delaware Georgia Hawaii Illinois Indiana Iowa Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri New Hampshire North Carolina Pennsylvania South Carolina Tennessee Vermont Virginia West Virginia Wisconsin

It is only Legal in one state that I hunt ---- Az.

I guess I won't purchase one after all and stick with my trusty Nikon...

Good luck, Robb

A bow-mounted, laser-rangefinding, inclinometer-compensating, wind/humidity/barometric pressure-compensating, digital & computational (with message center), image-magnifying and laser-dot reticle bowsite?

I'm looking into On-Star for my treestands, too.

"Hello this is OnStar" Yeah I just shot a booner! "Ok, we'll be there to pick you up with a bad boy buggy in 12 minutes"

Push a button: "This is OnStand,...how may we be of assistance to you"? (see...I even named it for you!)

Push a button...solve a problem. That's everyday life at home and at work. I don't need any excess buttons in the woods.

Now the "OnStand"...that was just downright funny!!

Jeff

I have too many gadgets on my bow already. No need for one more.

When's somebody gonna invent something that just does my huting for me?

It's only a matter of time. Somebody will invent a site that computes range to target, automatically compensates the dot/reticle/etc for distance...and suddenly you're just a trigger-man.

We've convinced our states to allow a majority of tech devices over the years. The end is nowhere in sight. How much possible fun is there in using a device that removes as much of the human element as possible from hunting? We're definitely engineering bowhunting toward "electronic termination".

its called "A Guide"

One of those sights has already been invented. It comes standard on this "longbow".

Makes ya wonder-----

Good luck, Robb

I believe technology has its place in our lives. But look at this example:

Playing a game used to entail 2 or more people sitting down and interacting face to face. The game was about beating your opponent, but you had real human interaction...skills. Enter technology. Now, to play a game you need only sit down with your "device" and play. It's all about a human/device interface. Technology has removed the need for a partner...social value...and real world skills.

Compare it to modern hunting tech. Guys are extremely focused on their technology. It makes the task easier. Each device (used correctly) increases the odds of success by minimizng the human-error element. The positive reward associated with this behavior assures us that people will continue to push tech, while ignoring skills...all to achieve some type of goal. The goal is pretty much meaningless however from a human standpoint. Shooting a deer with a very high tech weapon is about as difficult as killing a neighborhood dog. How much fun would Monopoly be if the game told you everything to do? You could be a crash-test dummy and still win.

As for hunting: You don't have to guess range. You don't have to pick a pin. You don't have to read a compass. You don't have to understand the sky/clouds. You don't need to physically spend time scouting for game animals. You don't have to be an excellent archer to shoot a bow. You don't have to scout the topography on foot anymore. You don't have to know how to sharpen a broadhead...or even make it fly correctly.

You can just buy it, rent it, or push a button and it's is yours.

Success awaits....if you could possibly think of it as that.

The line easily gets blurred between who has the advantage: An archer who has the tech gear to shoot at 80 yards accurately, and is hunting the peak of the rut....or the shotgunner who can hit at 150 yards but has to hunt after the rut.

Where will the line be drawn? Will we let Leupold, Horton, Draw-Lok, Crimson Trace, and our endless infatuation with technology drive us until we're killing deer with tools that bear more resemblance to a futuristic sci-fi movie weapon...than a good bow and long arrows? If you had the power to INSTANTLY shoot accurately (3" arrow group) at 100 yards, would you allow that technology? If you could...would you give bows the same range and effectiveness as a muzzleloader? How would such technology affect bowhunting? Would you rather your grandson know the history of American bowhunting?....or would you prefer he knew how to kill a bedded elk at 175 yards with a weapon system capapble of delivering a silent "arrow" accurately to that distance. Don't laugh...such capabilities are only a matter of improved technologies, and the tendencies of men to fall on them...instead of real woodcraft...woodsmanship...and hunting skills.

If you draw the line at attached rangefinders, why not fiber-optic sights? why not string silencers, why not mechanical releases, why not mechanical broadheads, why not arrow holding rests, why not everything that gives an archery hunter an edge, I think an onboard rangefinder is not over the top, compared to all the other advantages already allowed to bowhunters. You still have to kill with a stick and a string.

That is exactly what I kill with, by definition.

"If you draw the line at attached rangefinders, why not fiber-optic sights? why not string silencers, why not mechanical releases, why not mechanical broadheads, why not arrow holding rests, why not everything that gives an archery hunter an edge, I think an onboard rangefinder is not over the top, compared to all the other advantages already allowed to bowhunters."

The gear/tech devices you've described are the farthest thing from "stick & string" bowhunting imaginable.

You know, it's not about one big thing. It's about a hundred small ones. Keep improving...keep adavancing technology...keep fighting to legalize more add-ons...keep finding ways to improve bow performance...keep chipping away. Pretty soon the gear you're carrying is unrecognizable as archery in the conventional sense. You keep allowing more and more advantages to a bowhunter, and you produce a techhunter. I can tell you don't think bowhunting will ever get beyond "primitive" status. I submit that it moved beyond primitive status more than 20 years ago. The technology in bowhunting has moved miles in the past 30 years, while firearms have (comparatively speaking) moved only feet.

How long until a state says, "Bows do not have to be hand-drawn or hand-held"? Are you personally okay with an "anything goes" philosophy? If not...where would YOU stop it...and how do you know you CAN stop it?

Unfortunately...and I'm definitely to blame...the topic has gotten off the legality (or not) of the tech device mentioned above. I apologize for hijacking this into a debate about the progression of tech in bowhunting. The fact that several guys seem to feel as I do (The bow-mounted electronic laser rangefinder is wrong for bowhunters) heartens me just a bit.

Maybe someday bowhunters will look around them and say, "How did we ever let ourselves get so far off base? We are no longer bowhunters...though we still call ourselves one".....

Personally I like some of my technological gadgets, but to be honest, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit for the states to enact laws allowing ONLY a stick, string and arrows. Further it wouldn't bother me if it was law that each persons bow had to be handmade themselves. However this will never happen.

What you must understand is that the society that we live in is constantly evolving and along with it the activities we partake. I am certain it began when the recurve was introduced, many of the hunters who used longbows, said this is the end of our great sport. Then the compound came along, again those shooting traditionally grumbled and growled, then the release, then,,,,,, I think you get the picture. So you can either complain about it, or utilize what suits you, and go on.

I even feel funny writing this because believe me I am not trying to start an argument, rather make a point. Honestly I agree with you, but it will never change a thing. Good luck hunting.

its called "A Guide"

lol But I want something that will do my huting while I sit home and watch on TV and play hero. :0)

And for the record, I've never in my life used a guide and probably never will ... unless I get to Africa someday.

What in the world does that statement have to do with not allowing an electronic on-board lasing rangefinder into archery season? You can't possibly quote me anywhere in this thread as asking anyone to remove any currently-legal devices from archery seasons. I believe it was your statement that "even the top modern equipment, is still primitive enough to restrict the advantage". Is this how you would define "primitive"? I've not defined it...and such a definition would only be for my purposes...not yours. You assume much, and incorrectly I might add.

I am not interested in pushing archery back to the 1950s. I happen to like knowing that I'm as successful as I want to be using "stick & string"...and that I'm not one of the masses. I'm not mindlessly enthralled by every new piece of tech that might overcome another of my God-given human limitations. I just practice and hunt harder.

I just find it absolutely remarkable that many will do anything...buy anything...believe anything...allow anything...use everything...and pass themselves off as bowhunters. I guess I should know better than to reason with people who are caught up in the "anything goes" mindset. You'd think I'd know better, because I've watched it for over 30 years, and the only thing that matters is making it easier to find....."success?"

"Hello OnStand? I've accidentally locked my Model 2010 Automatic Archery Device! Can you activate the remote unlock for me? Thanks!"

;-)

Really takes away a lot of enjoyment from this site.

Someone always trying to cram down my throat that their way is better, or more ethical, or "true" hunting, etc.

Gets really tiresome

Bake

Bake

The question begs itself: When most of the challenge has been eliminated...when technology allows 100% to have the opportunity...what will we have accomplished?

I guess I have to feel a little sad for the future young bowhunters who might find it harder to win a video hunting game, than to kill their first big game animal.

Bring on the laser-guided weapons.

When our propensity to fall on technology has removed most of the human element from hunting, we're basically killers at that point. We invest so little in our own development...and so much in devices that remove much of the mystery in hunting with bow and arrow. Suddenly, the only mystery is 'when will I get a shot?'...and that's not much mystery anymore either. You identify a problem, and someone will create a device to overcome it. It's simple human nature to take the easiest possible way toward success. But taking the easiest way...making it the normal way...dilutes the experience. Cheapens it. Woody, remember when people used to get excited? "You shot that with a bow and arrow?!!". Nowadays it's nothing at all to see another whopper animal laying beneath the latest modern tech-laden weapon. Yawwn... It requires very little human investment to get there, if a guy's willing to buy all the "necessary" technology. Your "Turkey" analogy is so perfectly apt here.

People should have a choice, of course...but not endless, boundless choices. I'm getting tired of asking..."Where would you stop it. Is there a level of technology that you wouldn't allow into bowhunting"? Nobody answers that, which indicates most would never prevent anything from getting into our wonderful sport. Why not pods...or arrows that drop game in their tracks? Why not bows that are as effortless as a gun? How much is too much? Is there a "too much"? Are we comfortable with blurring the lines between all weapons to the point that states suddenly realize "Hey, we can incorporate firearms into the general archery season. We can spread out the gun pressure that way. We'll generate more revenue. Our studies show the success rates are about equal for all weapons now". You can cop out and say it'll never happen in your lifetime, but do you have the faintest concern for what your children or grandchildren will experience in the woods?

Stand up and be counted: Would you support allowing firearms into the entirety of your archery season? Are you ready to share what you have, with others who don't want to play by any of your rules?

I think what really gets guys torqued is when someone says "You can't do that". State's laws have said exactly that for centuries, and that's how order is maintained. Still, folks will cry and object to having limits placed that they personally don't like. Some will support them, and some won't. Personally, I don't think electronic devices that directly assist in the taking of an animal should be legal in archery seasons. Read between the lines: 2-way radios, cell phones, lighted sights, bow-mounted electronics, laser sights, etc have all been identified as either illegal or non-fair-chase by various states and organizations. Guys scream "It ain't fair!". I could care less at a certain point. I'm not the slightest bit worried that someone's Gramma can't bowhunt because she can't use her fully-automatic archery device. We can't let everyone in who wants in.

Me...I'm a native Arizonan. I'm all for fences. Obama-backers see it differently.

So would you limit bowhunting equipment in any way? Is anything that results in a kill "Fair Chase" in bowhunting?

"I know where I draw the line for me,"....

Are you okay with letting other bowhunters draw their own lines...no matter how far...and how this might affect you or your 2 young children?

Funny thing is, the line keeps getting pushed back. People tend to ultimately agree that a line will be drawn...but not right now...not here...not immediately...just...eventually.

I can remember:

The fight against wheels.

The fight against releases.

The fight against extreme let-off.

The fight against overdraws.

The fight against electronic attachments on a bow.

The fight against pods.

The fight against mechanical broadheads.

The fight against crossbows.

The fight against electronics on arrows.

The fight against draw locks.

ALL but a very few of these were eventually allowed. ALL of them were designed to make it easier to kill an animal under hunting conditions.

The precendent we've set is that we'll continue to allow techical advancements into our bowhunting. So far, bowhunters as a large group have not stood up and said "enough"! This is why I've repeatedly asked the question, "How Far"?

I'm gratified that at least one man (Toadslayer) has said a line does need to be drawn. I couldn't agree more!

I can appreciate someone choosing to increase personal challenge. What I have a problem with is the insistence of imposing said challenge on others. It should be a choice.

It is difficult enough for the new hunter to get into hunting. Animal rights groups, anti hunters, restrictive legislation, places to hunt and so on. Let’s be mindful as hunters to not impose personal biases as more road blocks to beginners. We need to recruit future hunters or hunting will have no future.

Humans define "Fair Chase" and what it means. They may all differ on it too. You'll be okay then with legalizing whatever tools mankind can invent to kill an animal with? Let each guy decide how far he wants to take it? Not clear....

"As far as limitations on equipment for hunts go, I believe that should be set up by game departments"...

I can scarcely believe you'd simply defer your equipment choices and methods to F&G officials or legislators. It's certainly your right to do so, but I'd much prefer to have a voice in the matter. This is our sport after all. Should we not decide its direction?

"The only logical reason to have any limitations on equipment is to decrease participation because that is exactly what they do."

There is an obvious flaw in your statement here. Creating any limitation (on future technology) will not cause a decrease in participation. It might limit or slow the growth of participation, but to claim a decrease is overblowing the effect. If limiting technology causes one not to hunt, what does that say? Chasing the animal, or chasing the technology?

There are a myriad of reasons to limit equipment, and that is exactly why states do it. You are being limited right now...like it or not. You really think states want to decrease participation across the board? State's policies reflect the will of the people. People want limits, and that's why you cannot use some of this technology in various locales.

I really don't hear or see anybody railing against those states that still outlaw crossbows, lighted sights, mechanicals, radios, and other tech devices...but then, I don't find myself hanging close to the guys who want all of it anyway.

I would immediately agree that dropping restrictions results in a huge increase in participation. I'm pretty certain we could do a lot of unsavory things to vastly increase participation, if that is your only consideration. I'm relatively glad that we have organizations that fight against an "all things permitted, anything goes" mentality.

I guess I'm trying to get you to read your own writing. "decrease participation" is the precise quote that you made. Please address that quote. Do you believe bowhunting participation will decrease if technology is limited? Do you believe the continued admission of technology is the only thing keeping all of us hunters in the woods?...that guys will trash their bows and take up marbles if they can't use their beloved laser-ranging sight? Or will hunters be hunters...and keep hunting?

My head is in Ohio...where almost anything goes. I think our state motto is "First For Crossbows"...or something like that.

great discussion!

Well guys...it's been fun. I've paid more attention to this thread than my time really permits. I'm leaving for 3 weeks in Alaska in a couple...and I still have a lot of gear to pack. Time to get busy.

I hope everyone enjoyed the read, and I hope you find success in the woods.

"Hello....OnStand?......"

;^)

KD

I believe in Ohio any laser is illegal, as it is illegal to shine a light on a wild animal in ohio.

Safe travels,

DJ

Archery hunting is SUPPOSED to be challenging, with a high degree of human skill development necessary for success. If you're not up to that, hunt with a rifle.

A bow mounted range finder crosses the line because it makes it too easy to judge distance. (I'd like to see you draw the bow while holding a range finder next to it.) A hand held range finder makes you choose between range finding (and possibly loosing the shot opportunity) or using developed skills to take the shot. From a stand it simply makes it easier than pacing out distances to objects ahead of time, a minor advantage. It also leads to the next step - adjusting the pin for the correct distance, and the next - adjusting for the wind, and the next - releasing the string at the right time with wireless communication with your electronic release, and the next - ???.

Pretty soon some of you will want to use powered exoskeleton suits to be able to draw super heavy bows and hold absolutely steady for those thousand yard shots!

This is supposed to be BOWHUNTING, not who can employ the most gadgets so they can be "successful" with the least effort!

;^)

"This is supposed to be BOWHUNTING, not who can employ the most gadgets so they can be "successful" with the least effort!" That is one opinion.

Ziek (I am not picking on you just using you as an example) I applaud your choice of making it more "challenging." I am sure you do everything in your power to make sure you do not overemphasize the "challenge" to the detriment of the animal. In my opinion we have to balance the more of “a challenge more difficult” aspects of archery to ensure the average bow hunter is capable of effectively using his equipment of choice.

If the average bow hunter does not achieve some level of success he will not continue to be a bow hunter.

Well, maybe he/she needs to move on. Are they really a bowhunter in the first place? When I conjure up an image of a "muzzleloader" hunter, I see Davy Crocket, Daniel Boone or lonnie McMillan with a musket. When I conjure up an image of a "bowhunter" , I see an indain, Saxton Pope, Art Young, or Glen St. Charles with a longbow, recurve or selfbow.

Glen St. Charles, the man who was the main catalyst for forming the Pope & Young club said it was time for traditionalist to "move on" and distance themselves from the modern "bowhunter". There is really nothing primitive about modern bows or muzzleloaders.

Having said all that, my own personal feelings...I've come to accept everyone for what they choose to hunt with. Just call a spade a spade , a bow a bow or a muzzleloader a muzzleloader. I'll share a campfire with most on this site.

Either you are wrong, or the entire company of Leupold Optics...and a good many state F&G departments...are wrong.

We'll have to let the readers of this discussion decide that for themselves.

It is this type of elitist attitude that has me far more worried about the future of bow hunting than any gadget out there.

Whithout the average bow hunter we lack the minimum critical mass to make us relavent. Where do we get the next generation of elite bow hunters? They have to come from somewhere? Many of them are todays average bow hunter.

Longboman I share your romantic visions but I am a realist. With out the average bow bunter we are doomed to extintion.

I admit I've never looked at my bow...a sight...a rangefinder...and a moving animal all at the same time. I never needed to.

I don't take shots at moving animals that require long-distance computational devices and other technologies in order to effect a "kill".

Truer, more honest words were never spoken! Applause!

Now comes the hard part: Does the average bowhunter need a bow-full of electronics on board to be a successful hunter?

Who really benefits from the development and admission of extreme electronics into bowhunting? Is it the manufacturers and their high-dollar sponsorees?

If we don't let unrestricted (and uninvented as yet) electronics into our seasons...will bowhunters give up and not hunt? Really?

Who here would throw their bow down if the "Vendetta" and all on-bow electronics were outlawed once and for all?

I'm not at all pretentious...I'm guessing about 99% of bowhunters would understand the marvels of having a hands-free rangefinder right in front of them at all times. It's a nice perk!

I'm trying to understand you. Your statements are often obtuse and contradictory...and that's why I question them.

You're on record as indicating this device is of little value to you. You've called the Vendetta a "waste of money". Your statements don't support limiting it, though. You've indicated it might be difficult to use under hunting conditions. You don't believe the marketing by its maker. You've said you don't use electronics on your bow. You've indicated bowhunting participation will decrease if we suddenly stop admitting more tech into bowhunting. You would allow almost any device into bowhunting seasons, and let the individual decide whether to use it or not.

On one hand...you don't seem to prefer to use extreme high tech gear on your bow.

On the other hand, you seem to support its proliferation, and have no concerns about it.

You said you have nothing invested in this. But don't you somehow have a financial interest in the development of equipment for bowhunters of today...and tomorrow? Is this true?

"If we don't let unrestricted (and uninvented as yet) electronics into our seasons...will bowhunters give up and not hunt? Really?" Obviuosly not but over restrictions/regulation may.

Nothing elitist about what I said.

"Whithout the average bow hunter we lack the minimum critical mass to make us relavent."

In case you been hybernating bowhunters are not relavent today. We speak at state game meetings and they just agnore us. Want an example? Try the crossbow. We are the minority, lowest on the totem pole. What you call an "average bowhunter", would be called "apathy" imo.

Look its all ok by me. Just call it what it really is. When the "muzzleloader" hunter try's to tell me he took his trophey with a "muzzleloader" and pulls out the hero shot with a modern in-line with a scope in the picture, I'll call BS and act like he's really something just to please him. I'll he and haw later at the idiot. The modern compound all decked out with the bells and whistles resembles a crossbow more than a traditional bow.

But once again...its all ok...just call it what it really is and we can go hunting together.

We don't need more, we need more quality. And that statement is true with most things in life. Some can't figure it out.

yes I wish the "average bowhunter" would wise up but if they can't then at least be honest with your equipment of choice.