ElkNut1's Link
Your 424grn arrow would be of little issue at 61#, you are plenty close to ideal wt. Make sure you use at least 125grn up front & you will have a very good elk setup that will out penetrate an arrow much heavier or lighter!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1's Link
I've done quite a bit of it lately with many different arrows & arrow wt combinations. For compounds it's tough to beat the 6.5-6.7grn per # of draw wt for ultimate performance!
For example I tested a Hoyt AM 32 65# 27.5" draw -- this bows draw wt did best with a 429grn arrow, a 390grn arrow fell short of out penetrating it as did a 450grn arrow, why? Because the light & heavier arrows did not store the needed energy as the fine balanced 429grn arrow. The lighter arrow at nearly 30fps faster shed momentum quickly on impact, the heavier arrow was too much for the 65# & it too lacked in penetration because there was not enough energy delivered by the bows limbs.
I ended up testing many different arrows & wts. All arrows were shot into a controlled substance so it did not matter the shaft size, only that all arrows were tuned to the bow being shot, all arrows were 340 or 300 spine shafts. The material was 5/16" cement board, this material does not close on the shaft impeding penetration, I was able to use many layers to control penetration depth so it was easy to see what wts did best for the 65#.
Here is a photo of a 406grn Axis & a 429gr Axis arrow, the lighter one has 100grn tip & the 429grn has a 125grn tip. The lighter faster arrow did not out penetrate despite its superior speed at 65#. The same was true when I compared the 429grn arrow to an aprox 450grn arrow, it did not out penetrate it at any time, the bows limbs could not provide the energy needed for the heavier arrow!
Bottom line, stay with your setup as long as the arrow is spined correctly & is tuned to your bow!
ElkNut1
Josh
With a modern compound bow and 60 plus pounds of draw weight penetration isnt a issue.
With my 370 grain arrows I get my steel force premiums just sticking out the long width of my block target and the commercial says they can stop a missile.
ElkNut1's Link
The best of both worlds can be very crucial at crunch time, penetration & speed! A sharp broadhead for any arrow chosen is a given.
Look at this photo & you will see how different wt arrows stack up in the penetration dept with the same 65# Hoyt bow. The top arrow is a Victory HV with 200grn tip wt for a total wt of 390grn -- The 2nd arrow is the Axis (green nock)429grn arrow with a 125 tip. The 3rd arrow is an FMJ 472grn arrow 100grn tip & the 4th arrow is a 448grn Axis arrow 125grn tip(green nock) the shot was 40yds. Notice the Victory HV 390grn & the Axis 429 are neck & neck, the two heavier arrows at 40 yds did the worst! The 429grn arrow is 15fps faster than the 448grn arrow & 30+fps faster than the 472grn fmj. That 390grn Victory with 200grn tip did very well with its heavier FOC.
Yes, all would kill, but is the heavier arrows ones best choice for that 65# bow? Consider the results, the 472grn arrow chronos at 245fps, the 448grn arrow chronos at 259fps & the 429grn arrow chronos at 274fps. This means that you could be gaining 1 - 2 pins different by choosing the right arrow for ones draw wt & not sacrifice any penetration. Actually it out penetrates them!
There is no perfect arrow wt. per bow, but there is a very good ballpark balance ones should consider when considering elk hunting setups!
ElkNut1
"The 429grn arrow is 15fps faster than the 448grn arrow & 30+fps faster than the 472grn fmj."
Based on the accepted standard of 1 fps gain or loss for every 4 gr increase or decrease, your numbers are off by a bit. Something else other than just arrow weight had to be changed between these setups. That would explain how the slightly heavier arrows faired worse during the testing.
Different focs give diff results. A lot of apples and oranges maybe even a few cherries in his tests. But I think he knows that as he stated the lighter arrow with the high foc did well.
I have shot confidently for years with this set up, and have harvested 2 elk in last 3 years, had full penetration with arrow remaining in both animals not the classic blow through the animal to which i find my arrow on the ground full of blood waiting to be put back in the quiver. What are your thoughts?
If any want to start a new thread or PM me with a question go ahead. I don't want to side track Trackers thread any further!
Wyo, your figures don't add up sir. With the way I'm understanding you, you are saying a 429grn arrow would be 10fps difference over a 472grn arrow which is 43grns heavier? That is not in the ballpark in my experience of shooting through a chronograph which I happen to own. I will say 5fps or so can vary either way with them but you are saying it's half of what's written, I've not found that to be the case with actual shooting through a chrono & not using a written formula. I'm sure different bows & draw lengths can vary.
Too, all arrows were tuned & nothing unusual was done to any of the arrows to alter penetration as you are eluding too! Feel free to do some testing & share your results! Thanks!
ElkNut1
I'm doing 465 out of a 70lb, 30" draw GT 500...whatever thats worth.
Sarge
"Elk.....it's what's for dinner."
Correction- I did change my vanes from Easton 4inch to 2in Blazers. I'm now at 421grns with an FOC of 11.1.
Brian
ElkNut1
Top arrow 390grn 200grn tip wt --2nd
Middle arrow 429grn 125 tip --1st
Bottom arrow 519grn 125 tip --3rd
Shot at 30yds 65# compound into 6 sheets cement board.
Middle arrow does best in the 6.5-6.7 X 65# range. 519grn arrow comes in at 7.98grn per inch X65#
ElkNut1
My last elk with a 375 grain arrow entered the second to last rib on one side and embedded 3/4" into the opposite leg bone. It took a pair of pliers to remove the bh from the leg bone. Arrow weight has very little to do with real world penetration.
I will state unequivocally that true arrow flight is orders of magnitude more important to penetration than arrow weight.
Cheers, Pete
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4RGcyZ_gJY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfK0sBsZBw
I would recommend using just enough weight to quiet the bow. Animal movement will have far more effect on penetration than arrow weight. Compare the penetration into a target that is rigid compared to that of one that spins when hit (hung from a tree and hit off center).
If they are shooting great, I wouldn't mess with them, if you get too much heavier with your set-up your going to have to deal with trajectory issues.
I don't think that an extra 25-50 grains is ever going to be the factor in whether or not you killed your animal (unless it makes you miss)
I've killed them with packages weighing from 400-550, and that mid-400 range seems to be the best balance of adequate weight and flat trajectory from all my bows.
AZBugler- what is your DW with those 425's?
Most test mediums (including ballistic gel) don't exhibit this type of reaction, and even the FBI realized many years ago that ballistic gel acts nothing like live tissue, and uses ballistic gel for comparative purposes only, not as a prediction of terminal performance on a live target.
But, there are more factors than just penetration to consider when choosing an arrow weight.
Rick M
At 40 yds my groups are about half of what they were at 413.
66 lbs 265 FPS
That's right, but hair, hide, ribs and muscle are not fluids and elk are seldom shot under water. I will concede there is a slight advantage to the penetration of a full bladder with a heavy arrow.
I know you get some flack around here, but I think you have done the most realistic broadhead testing possible in your R&D work, so I'm wondering, what do you hunt with, especially for Moose, Elk and other critters larger than your average deer? I know what you test, but what is in your quiver when you hunt for fun? Both broadhead and arrow weight?
I'm not implying that animals are pure fluids, but last I checked, mammals are 60%-70% or more composed of water. Elk are also not made of ballistic gel, cement board, or high density foam. So live targets react to projectiles somewhere in between a solid and a fluid, which is why testing for actual penetration on a live animal is so difficult.
My point only is that on a certain medium, it can be shown both mathematically and through testing that a heavier arrow out of the same bow will penetrate more. Therefore, if there is a medium such as this, doesn't it throw a bit of a question mark in how much importance is put into amateur test results on materials which are pure solids (where it is not expected that heaver will outperform lighter), and on materials which have never been known to exist within a live animal?
Again, as I said before, penetration is only one factor to consider when choosing an arrow weight, and arrow weight is only one factor of many on arrow penetration.
Depending on ones draw wt & length there is a balanced wt that will do better than too light or too heavy.
I've also tested arrows to 710grn & as light as 350grn, the results are the same after 100's of shots. Each bow has a ballpark or balance point where a particular wt out shines others at hunting distances. There is too heavy!! It's like saying that a 1000grn arrow will out penetrate a 500grn arrow when both shot out of the same 70# bow at let's say 30yds! It just won't happen! We are talking about hunting setups here!
ElkNut1
I don't personally buy Elknuts cement board test because that would be more KE dependent and unless you hit major bone (at which point you are hosed anyway) I believe momentum is much more important than KE. I would be interested in Elknut running the KE numbers on his three arrow comparison, i.e. what is the KE of the heavy, the medium and the light arrow.
However, the reality is we cannot create an exact replication of hunting penetration. Even a carcass doesn't help because you could never hit the same place twice.
We also can't take individual's "experiences" with much certainty either as you never know if someone's light (or even heavy) arrows were flying like darts or with energy robbing wobbles.
That is why I asked Woody what he hunts with. I would guess he has shot more arrows and broadheads into actual animals than anyone on this board. (Yes, I know saying that runs the risk of giving him a bigger head, but truth is truth). I find it encouraging that he shoots a very similar set up as do I.
The arrow wts that faired the best was what faired the best! (grin) I can assure you there is no bone in an elks body tougher that 7 sheets of this stuff! A scapula blade less the petition wall would not hold a candle to these layers. Foam targets or bag targets did not come into play other than holding up the layers!
The value of penetration per arrow would no doubt carry over into an animal, the arrows that did the best would continue to do so, the ones that did not would not all of a sudden miraculously become the better penetrators! (grin) All would kill elk without a doubt! But as hunters it's nice to have the fine balance of superior penetration & speed, that cannot be had in too light an arrow or too heavy an arrow depending on ones draw wt & draw length.
Take an arrow that falls into the 6.5-6.7 grn per inch of shaft X draw wt, then get another tuned arrow 50grns+ if you'd like & shoot into a controllable substance & see what your results are at 30yds! I'd be interested to see your findings! Put a 125grn head on both.
Darrell, the KE for all 3 arrows is the same at 63lbs. The 448grn arrow is 62lb but not a big deal, close enough! The real difference is the speed they're being tossed! The 429grn arrow out of my bow stored the energy best over the other two!
ElkNut1
Many trees are also 60% or more composed of water. Ballistic gel is 80 % water. Ice is 100% water. It's not how much water a substance contains that make it a solid or a fluid. These words have definitions. Materials can be classified by these definitions. Ballistic gel is a soft solid that is used because it behaves similar to soft tissue and can give fairly reliable and repeatable results (unlike animal test). No one is saying that the penetration in gel is exactly what you will get in an animal or duplicates the varied resistance of an animal. Shoot into a canned hams if only animal tissue will satisfy you as a test media. The average results will be nearly identical for both heavy and light arrows. IMO, certainly not worth the guaranteed loss in trajectory.
The success that many see with heavy arrows can come from one or more of the following factors.
1. It's all they have ever used.
2. The stiffer spine that is usually required to tune a heavy arrow. This causes to arrow to flex less at impact. More of the available energy stays in-line with the direction of travel.
3. The increased FOC. Many add weight by adding heavy inserts and/or broadheads. This increases the FOC which means there is less of the available weight at the rear of the arrow which again would cause arrow flex, which diminishes penetration.
4. The bow is quieter. A quieter bow means it's less likely to startle the animal. Animal movement can have a dramatic effect on penetration.
5. You have found the sweet spot as, Elknut1 has illustrated, which gives the max energy from your bow. This sweet spot may require a heavier arrow than you have used in the past. You therefore think heavier is better.
6. More KE at long range. There is a better retention of KE over distance with the heavier arrow. The further you shoot the greater the advantage of the heavy arrow. In the East most deer are taken at less than 20 yards. At that range the KE advantage would be negligible. As the KE advantage increases the trajectory disadvantage of the heavy arrow also increases.
There is certainly nothing wrong with shooting a heavy arrow. However, weight is not the DIRECT cause of any "extra" penetration you MAY see. It's the effect it has on things like spine, FOC, noise, etc. that MIGHT make it a tad better if you don't mind the trajectory price.
"Darrell, the KE for all 3 arrows is the same at 63lbs."
Actually, the arrows and velocities you gave above yield three different KE values.
71.53 Ft-lbs for the 429 g @ 274ft/sec arrow
66.75 ft-lbs for the 448 g @ 259 ft/sec arrow
62.93 ft-lbs for the 472 g @245 ft/sec arrow
No velocity given for the 390 g arrow. I assume these were velocities at the bow. I'm curious to know the velocities at the target for all 4 arrows.
"All arrows were shot into a controlled substance so it did not matter the shaft size, only that all arrows were tuned to the bow being shot, all arrows were 340 or 300 spine shafts."
Both shaft and point diameter can greatly influence a penetration test as well as the arrow's spine. Also any penetration test that allows the point to exit the media can give misleading results. When the point breaks through, the resisting force is GREATLY reduced especially in media like plywood, cement board, etc.. An arrow which breaks through with just 1 or 2 ft-lbs of KE remaining can still travel several inches, if little side friction exists. However, an arrow which lacks just 1 or 2 ft-lbs of KE from being able to break through is stopped short. Had both arrow been stopped within the media, with that same difference in KE, the difference in penetration may have been undetectable.
I went to a ballistic calculator site & put in the weight of the 3 arrows from above you are referring too at 65# & 27 1/2" draw. They are as I wrote. 62KE on one & 63KE on the other two.
Here's the link so you can see for yourself! http://backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/
Type in arrow wt. -- bow speed 320fps from manufacturer. --draw 27 1/2" -- weight on string 15.
You are also being ridiculous with your further statements. These are hunting bows, we are elk hunting here not building pianos!
I did stop many of the arrows with too thick of board, I did not want to bust arrows as I did break one. The best penetrator was the best penetrator everytime! Please show photos of your testing where they differ, I'd love to see them. I've done tons of testing on many arrows & bow weights & they always come out the same! Not splitting hairs here but just use a reasonable weighted arrow for ones draw wt & they will do just fine! Thanks!
ElkNut1
The battle is fighting those desires to have a super fast, super flat shooting arrow out to 50 yards.
That is what sooo many just can't give up. So then comes the justification for what you just gotta have regardless of anything else....IMO
I actually posted on another forum trying to see what others were getting as far as how many grains per pound loss, it varied from 2.5 grn to 3.75. I must be in that 2.5 grn category. I hope to test them again & really see the hard numbers out of curiosity sake more than anything! My biggest hurdle is finding the time! (grin) Thanks!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
The videos I posted above show that penetration more closely aligns with KE when the arrow does not exit the media for the reason I mentioned above.
If KE is measured with math as is momentum, why not take it into consideration?
Only possible if it also had more KE.
Beside, the purpose of the picture was to illustrate how having the point of the arrow exit the test media can give misleading results. Not always totally bogus, but misleading. In this case only 8 Ft-lbs difference gave +100% more penetration. Had there been less friction of the shaft, the difference would have been even greater. Once the point exits, that arrow has an advantage. It no longer sees frontal resistance, only friction (If any) on the shaft.
I don't know what other conclusion you can draw from this other than the heavy arrow made it through the board and the lighter one did not. How much further through the board is irrelevant after the B/H breaks through. The fact that the lighter arrow couldn't make it through the board is the telling part of this photo.
If your only criteria is to be able to break through the plywood, then you are correct. Most people want to know more. They want to see if there is a relationship of penetration depth to KE or Momentum or FOC or something.
"The fact that the lighter arrow couldn't make it through the board is the telling part of this photo."
It had less and KE, what did you expect? It also had less momentum and I believe a different FOC and spine. So nothing can be proven with so many variable, not to mention the test media. But it gave Pat confidence, so there was some good that came out of it.
Were they shot from the same bow? If they were, than any point you're trying to make is moot.
That is what I hunt with for everything.
You've got to have a headache by now.
I remember a very similar thread just a couple months ago....Purdue contradicts himself so much it's almost like he is arguing with himself!
This is very simple
A 500 grain arrow will penetrate deeper into ANY material than a 400 grain arrow (shot from the same bow, with the same draw weight, and tuned to each arrow weight)
Bow's are more efficient with heavier arrow.....meaning more energy stored in the bow will transfer to the 500 grain than the 400 grain, this is true for all bows, nobody has a bow with a "sweet spot" that changes this fact.....the "sweet spot" has to do with how well it shoots and nothing else.
So...the 500 grain arrow has more energy than the 400 the moment it leaves the string, and then carries that energy more efficiently.....this means that the gap in energy between the two widens with every inch traveled.
The 500 grain arrow will always hit with more KE, it will always hit with more momentum...
No matter how you twist it, you CAN'T change the laws of physics.....it will always take more energy, or more mass to stop the 500 grain than the 400 grain.....hence, the 500 grain arrow goes in deeper .... ALWAYS. (given that the two arrow hit two identical targets)
This doesn't mean that I think heavier is always better for hunting...there is usually a happy medium between weight and trajectory.
If weight didn't matter I'd be shooting a 200 grain arrow at 390 fps, why not?
What I really want is another 3 inches or so draw length.... I was reading about this enzyte stuff and called em.... they tell me I can take it up to four hours before a hunt and I can pick up like another 30 or 40 fps... plus hit my driver farther and hammer nails into wood with... naahh.... never mind....
yep....makes you wonder why compound shooters don't want an arrow very similar....but wait, I know exactly why....
They "have" to shoot a perfectly flat arrow to 50 yards.
Actually this thread has really got me looking had at what I have been using the last 5 years or so.
Interestingly I shot an arrow last night that weighed a ton compared to what I was using. It was an Axis 340 @28" with 4 feathers, wrap, 150gr head at a total of around 485. I have to say it was slow but just fell right in the target where I was aiming and the differnce in how quiet my bow was is amazing. I am really curious to see how this arrow hits at 40 yards. We'll see tomorrow.
Did it work? Yes Would i do it again? no, but i was poor and in school so I used what i had, and i knew from extensive shooting on the 3d course that i could put it where it needed to go. I did what i had to
I shoot much heavier now (though 400 is not even close to heavy by some standards on this thread)
I guess that the fact of the matter is simply this....this thread is started multiple times a year, and id always ends in the same thing. a pissing match. there are obviously people that feel strongly both ways, and no one has any real science to prove their point as being correct. It often ends in people trying to get the haviest arrow possible, with no regards to how well it shoots in their bow. I.E. an arrow with a 25+% foc is absolutely ridiculous. if you are going to get a heavy arrow, try doing it other ways than just adding heavier BH and inserts.
SHOOT WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH, SHOOT WHAT YOUR BOW SHOOTS WELL, AND SPEND MORE TIME PRACTICING AND LESS TIME IN THIS WEENER MEASURING CONTEST AND THE ARROW WILL NOT BE AN ISSUE
Joe
"It often ends in people trying to get the heaviest arrow possible, with no regards to how well it shoots in their bow. I.E. an arrow with a 25+% foc is absolutely ridiculous."
Did you just make up that statement... or has someone told you they care not how their arrow flys as long as it is heavy with high FOC?
"25% FOC absolutley ridiculous" ?? Simply put, You know not of what you speak.
I hope you didn't wet on your self will make that post. Per usual you try to make a point by twisting words or taking things out of context. I've been saying for years that heavier arrows retain energy better than light arrows. But they only do it when passing through a fluid. Hence my, "There is a better retention of KE over distance (distance to the target was understood by most) with the heavier arrow." "Who says arrows with more energy penetrate deeper?...Purdue"
That's right. The arrow that arrives at the target with the most KE will penetrate the deepest. (all else equal) However, the small gain in KE at the bow and through the air is USUALLY negligible. But everyone should run their own tests to see if there really is a penetration gain and if it is worth the trajectory price tag.
"The fact that the lighter arrow couldn't make it through the board is the telling part of this photo."
One more thought on this because the assumption is soooo common. How do you know the heavier arrow's additional penetration was only due to its weight? It had a carbon arrow stuffed inside a 2018 Aluminum arrow. I would love to know the spine of that arrow. The lighter arrow was just a 2018 with weight tubes which add virtually nothing to the spine.
"No matter how you twist it, you CAN'T change the laws of physics.....it will always take more energy, or more mass to stop the 500 grain than the 400 grain.....hence, the 500 grain arrow goes in deeper .... ALWAYS."
I agree (except for the MORE MASS part), but the difference in penetration is negligible at about 25 yards or less with most bow set-ups. See the videos, explain why there is not a significant penetration difference even with significant differences in mass.
It's nearly impossib;e to change only one variable when doing such a test, but IMO it's the most controled test I've ever seen. Not perfect , but VERY good. Far better than any of Ashby's. Woody likes to say the paper tune is faulty, but has never provided a better test to prove his point. "The majority of trad guys don't even care what arrow flight is like and just judge things by group size ..."
From my observations, I would say the same about the majority of compound shooters. Only I would change the word "size" to "location" for the compound crowd.
Personally not choosing to have high FOC arrows is fine. And there are some limititations in stiff enough arrows. However, I have had not problem getting 33+% with my 31+ inch draw and 71#s. MANY benefits to that setup. Would never leave home without now that I really know about FOC.
The more true statement is "....impossible for 99% of modern archers because high FOC is physically impossible with an arrow with a total weight of 400 grains.
"The majority of trad guys don't even care what arrow flight is like and just judge things by group size with group tuning a bare shaft or something of the like."
You need not say more to confirm your validity in this subject. Now it is crystal clear.
"I remember a very similar thread just a couple months ago....Purdue contradicts himself so much it's almost like he is arguing with himself!"
Too true ;-)
"yep....makes you wonder why compound shooters don't want an arrow very similar....but wait, I know exactly why...."
Woody knows exactly why, you are editorializing to make a false generalization.
FWIW if you have a 31 in DL it is much much harder (not easier as you imply) to get the properly spined arrow at that high of foc.
Trust me, I dont care about the weight of the arrow. 350-800, do what you need. The fact is, if your arrow is wobbling and not flying true because you have neglected to properly spine your arrow, you will get less penetration out of the heaviest/highest foc arrow than you ever will a properly tuned arrow. not to mention crappy accuracy with a huge fixed blade head.
Joe
Oh where oh where do you come up the notion that a heavy high FOC arrow that I speak of would be untuned, wobbly and inaccurate? Why do you dream stuff up like that?
It IS much harder to get the proper spine with a longer draw....every day of the week. I'm not implying its not. But it can be done IF you want to and IF you know how to.
Like I mentioned before it is pretty much impossible to get anywhere near 25-30% FOC with target arrows you speak of due to the total weight being so light.
Assuming its untuned, wobbly and inaccurate? That's hilarious ignorance.
"except for the more mass part"
Are you going to argue with Einstein? E=MC2 ....... come on man, if it takes more energy.....it takes more mass....period.
Anyway, you say you can't get even your heavier arrow to get more than the 15% FOC range. I can show you how to get more if you're interested. Then you can FINE tune it to your bow.
Also, the arrow will not drop faster due to more FOC. Heavier weight maybe but not FOC.
600 grains shot from and heavy compound should zip through any animal on earth.....and any bone on any animal with the right broadhead. You should read the testimonial on the TuffHead website from a compound guy hunting in Africa. Amazing.
Explain. Shaft, cut length, BH, insert, nock/insert, etc.
In a nutshell....start with stiffest and lightest shaft in grains per inch. I have found that is a Gold Tip Ultralight 300 at 8.6 gr./in.
Cut to 31-31.25 inches....15 gr.aluminum insert....170 gr. broadhead adapter (which allows for extra 1/4" of draw)....4" external footing sitting behind insert....1" double footing sitting over longer footing AND over insert AND broadhead adapter....225 gr. TuffHead gives total weight of approx. 750 grains....with 300 gr. Tuffhead gives approx. 820 grains....both will be 30+% FOC.
What I have found is at this high of FOC the tuneablity of the arrow is easier. There seems to be a larger window of tuning. Also, when fine tuning, if the arrow shoots weak or stiff (which certainly is UNacceptable) it still hits straight, in the same spot due to extremely fast recovery.
That is what I have found.
I can see most this stuff is coming from a book & not actual serious testing! There is too heavy & too light for a specific draw wt. I've tested this through 100's of shots of so many arrow wts & equipment. Bottom line for those who are serious about both their penetration & speed balance for THEIR setup, stay in the 6.5--6.7 grain X YOUR draw wt. 70# X 6.6 = 462grn arrow wt. That's an example & an arrow wt you can take to the bank! This is for compound bows! If you draw over 29" add 10grn per inch to your arrow wt. That's 472grn for a 30" draw!
Guys, this is ballpark wt. Your arrow could fall into the 450grn to 480grn & you still would be in the punishing penetration department! This is a guideline not an end all!
For Traditional hunters stay in the 9grn to 10grn per lb of draw wt. 55lb X 9.5 = 520grns or within that realm!
Any wts 50grn higher or lower from your balance point no matter the equipment will show a reduction in penetration for your setup! Every test I did proved it, I have tons of photos showing these results!
bigdans was a great example of waay too much arrow wt unless he was bowfishing! If he was drawing 70#, then times 70# X 6.6 = 462grn that is right at what he did the best with on his hog hunt!
This is not from any book but I have put in countless hours testing various wts & setups, for those who are still concerned what would be an ideal arrow wt for their bows please consider this! Those who are happy with present setups, great, not trying to change anyone only helping those who are unsure of theirs
ElkNut1!
Matt, The only durability issues I have had is when shooting deer from a climber at 10 yards, the broadhead enters, exits and hits the dirt before fletching exits. The arrow breaks off as the deer runs....OR when it is slapped against a tree after penetrating 2 inches of boar shield on both sides.
I have had the threaded shank of the broadhead adapter bend when hitting a tree WITHOUT the footing but not with the footing. Never a problem when hitting an animal. It just keeps on truckin.
I have seen the opposite of what you claim as fact. I've shot Waterbuff in Australia with 840gr arrows [210 steelforce head, 80# bow] with complete [ 3 buff same result] pass throughs and also shot my 440 gr hunting arrow and another 540, and 600 gr arrow while the bulls were on the ground and the 440 got right about 13" compared to the heavier arrows disappearing inside the animal.
My buff is in the video section of this site- resolution hard to see the arrow sticking out though. And I have posted some of the test photos here plenty.
Richie, you still trying to prove the "benefits" of EFOC?. :)
beendare, no sweat man!!!!(grin) Of course your 80# bow did better with the 540grn+ arrows that the 440grn arrows, the 440grn were way to light & way under the 6.5-6.7 grn recommendation! It could not sustain the energy that bow delivered! Way too light for poundage drawn! This is why I like shooting & testing into a controlled substance with lots of resistance that is equal to all arrows tested! I'd be happy to put an 800grn arrow together & test it against the 429grn arrow at my 65# & see what penetrates best at 30yds!
A game animal is not consistent, yes we want to kill it but an 1" or 2" can take away or add to penetration depending on what broadhead contacts entering or further into the animal, even a rib hit or glancing off one can give a false sense of penetration. The testing I've done is very consistent & equal per arrow wt! I can control my target used & really measure the best penetrator, all arrows MUST be tuned & spined to that bow! All bows even though they may be drawing the same poundage can have various speeds, this is why it's a "ballpark" recommendation!
Here's another example of the 65# bow with a 429grn arrow (optimum arrow wt for this poundage) 469gr & 472grn arrows at 40yds in a controlled target! Notice the lack of penetration with the two heavier arrows!
This is consistent with my above photos!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
You can see that when I wander from the balanced arrow wt of 429grn for this 65# bow that the penetration suffers whether I go up in arrow wt or down in arrow wt! As a hunter uses a particular draw wt he should design an arrow for the quarry he is after according to his needs! 6.5-6.7 X draw wt is a great starting point & one can adjust from there!
ElkNut1
Elknut1, I am curious as to your opinions on the Ashby reports (testing real animals)?
I do not agree though that no matter the arrow wts used that the heavier will ALWAYS out penetrate regardless of bow poundage used, bow poundage is huge & is what dictates what wt arrow will penetrate best!Unless testing is done in water only? All photos I've shown shows the heavier is not ALWAYS better & neither is a light arrow!
Some ask what is light & what is heavy? That all depends on your draw wt? What's light or heavy for one may not be for another if looking for optimum penetration! I can penetrate & kill elk with a 390grn arrow or a 550grn arrow, but neither offer the penetration of the more balanced 430grn arrow or there abouts at hunting distances at 65#! If I shot 80+ yards then I'd have to say the reasonably heavier arrow would maintain more energy way down field!
ElkNut1
All I know is the super heavy arrows worked well on those buff and the lighter arrows and 3 blade heads had less penetration. Obviously 840gr. is overkill for most everything.
And I always go back to this; Why does my 1,400 gr fish arrow get passthroughs on carp at 5' deep and my 1,000 gr fish arrow have penetration problems?
ElkNut1
In all the testing I've done with the various wts into very hard materials why is it none of the too light arrows or two heavy arrows for a specific draw wt win out? I'm not a scientist here but I do have common sense!
When I see a particular arrow wt bust through 2" of cement board everytime & then some, but the other arrows do not, why should I feel that all of a sudden if I use the ones that penetrate less will all of a sudden bust through bone better when they've shown no sign of doing so previously? It doesn't make sense!
Please take your bow & do some testing to prove your theory, I want to see it counteract my findings which by no means are bias. I don't sell any products but have tested countless arrows & wts & have shared several photos here of the results.
Just for grins Sapcut & beendare (whom I both respect) I will build an 800grn arrow & a 550grn arrow & make sure both spine & tune to my 65# setup. Let's see which is the best penetrator! It must past a severe penetration test before I would take it hunting! I look forward to this! (grin)
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
Please show us results of all your perfect testing, I'd love to see how your results reverse my findings, put your arrows where your mouth is!Thanks!
ElkNut1
I've posted photos many times of the bull we pincushioned with different arrows and setups. By no means were these scientific controlled studies, for example; I could get my 440gr axis to tune perfectly with 840gr black mamba shafts but not with the same 210gr bh. Then some of the other 540 and 600 gr arrows we had to use a lighter Zwickey 2 blade head. So not scientific but when ALL of the lighter arrows had a max penetration of 13" and all of the heavy arrows penetrated to the nok or better- it was enough to convince me.
For me with a setup that shoots 60 ft/lbs of energy there is no scenario where I can hit a leg bone and have any hope. A scapula may or may not get through and even then just barely. Even at 80 ft/lbs of energy a leg bone of an elk stops the arrow.
The point is to put it in the boiler room and virtually anything that is flying true will pass through.
All the rest of this discussion is anecdotal BS
A 200 gr. and 100 gr. point will not result in the same dynamic spine on a .300" spine shaft if the shaft length are similar. IMO there 3-4 different variables here (mass, dynamic spine, OD and the differences in "slickness" of the shaft material) and the differences in result are being attibuted to 1 variable.
