Big Dan's "Quartering To" Frontal Shot
Elk
I just finished listening to Big Dan's interview and was hoping we could get a thread started that might have some pictures detailing the 4"x16" area that he aims for. I usually hunt solo and would really like to be more confident in taking this shot. Thanks again for a great interview and freely sharing your knowledge -- I always appreciate your insight.
Go ahead and blast me but why not wait for a better shot? To me,taking that shot sounds like a lot of time looking for what ultimately will be a lost and wasted elk.
I won't question any technique or tactic that Big Dan recommends. All I really want to know is; given that weddings are typically held on Friday or Saturday, there are, give or take, about possible days to get married in a year. What was the conversation like when his daughter told him she was getting married on the opener of the season? What did he say to the son-in-law to be? Pretty chilly I can imagine.
Idacurt By all means don't shoot if you don't think you can hit it. It works for me. I don't know what kind of shot you are. I have lost two bulls in my bowhunting both were dead broadside. Above the lungs and below the spine. I take my shot at under 30 yds My big Az bull was at 10yds and its work 17 of 17 times for me. If you look at the photo of the bull you see no wound on the left side. As far as the wedding on opening day I still don't like him much. He didn't man up and make the ladys change the date. I tried but I was not man enough myself.
Idacurt. Let me give you an example. The bull is coming in to the call. Coming directly at you. At 20 yards you either shoot front on or he walks up to you and spooks. This shot is not hard and it's very deadly. If your not capable of making the shot then don't take it. But don't think there aren't people very capable of this shot.
Solo calling is a different game all together. 90% of the time the bull being called in will only give you a frontal angle. Likely your only angle. But close. Not talking 40, 60, 80 yard shots like some envision. ("but it was the only elk I saw and I couldn't get any closer...")
They are in your lap and in your lap so fast it's like flashing a $100 bill at a dancer. Not like they only come so far and the turn and pose. Sometimes, but not often.
It's almost the same shot as quartering away actually, same path, same vitals. If you avoid the big bones on entrance, you likely have your elk.
I realize I'm not changing anyone's mind on taking what to me is a high risk shot.You guys have convinced yourself that shooting at a 4"x16" target is better than a broadside or slightly quartering away,good for you. I,like Dan have been chasing elk for a long time,have been fortunate to kill my share of bulls(not as many as Dan)and have helped countless others take Elk. Things seem to go south when guys shoot past their ability level because they have to get'er done or the thought of letting that monster bull walk is too much for their ego. People that hunt with me understand before things get heated that it's 30yrds or under and broadside or slightly quartering away,if not the bull walks.
I have seen very few guys hunt with me that after chasing Elk all day can run up that last 1k vertical,full of adrenaline and hit a target like that consistently. When the bull is in your lap,fine but most of the guys I read about here are proud to take 40+yrd shots which to me combined with a frontal shot equals a high chance for a wasted Elk.
Again,I'm not trying to to start a argument and in the end you will have to live with your shot choice,if it works for you great but Dan should understand that most read his threads like it's the bible and I doubt a majority are proficient enough to consistently pull off a shot like this.
The OP sounds like he is new to Elk hunting and I just wanted to let him know that it's OK to pass on some shots that for some,with experience is acceptable and to wait for a shot with a larger kill zone.
idacurt: The OP sounds like he's new to Elk hunting??
I couldn't really tell he was new to elk hunting.
Idacurt, how many times have you taken the shot that BigDan describes?
I use to would have argued ethical shots .... not so much anymore.
Why?
Because there are many, MANY wounded and lost animals to broadside shots, every year are there not?
Wounded and lost animals to "perfect" shots are identical to wounded and lost animals to not so perfect shots.
Right?
If you can make the shots - take them. If you can't make the shots then don't.
Stealthycat,you're 100% correct.
I hope everyone has a great season and gets a huge 6point Bye
I'd like to see a picture with this area marked on an elk.
At ground level, I'll take a 10 yard frontal over a 30 yard broadside every time. I've only had the opportunity twice so far in 30 years of bowhunting, but both animals went down faster than any broadside shot I've ever taken.
That logic will definitely get you in trouble. There are lots of quartering away angles where you would be screwed taking it from the other direction and vice versa.
I believe the bowhunting community deserves accurate information regarding shots/placement based on science and experience. I think what all want is : 1 pictures/accurate drawrings of elk skeletal structure in frontal,broadside,&quartering poses.One must also consider the orientation of the elk(facing uphill,flat,or downhill). 2 drawrings of how vital structures lie within the skeletal structure in those orientations 3 personal unbiased information from experience relating limitations and conditions for such shots.
I have see skeletel/vitals drawrings for broadside orientation on level ground; but there much more to be appreciated.
It is a simple solution in knowing the relevant anatomy of the elk in different positions and your shooting accuracy at given distances.We owe it to the animals we hunt to act both ethically and responsibly .I hope that this type of information is made available to those of us who truly desire to become informed and responsible bowhunters.
I too would like to see some other pics with the where to aim spots on them. I would like to know this so if iam in a close range (15yards or less for me) situation i will know confidentaley where to aim if i decided to take the shot.
On this site, I've never seen anyone be a proponent of any kind of frontal or quartering to shot beyond 25 yards. Everyone who uses these shots says take them close.
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that countrywide every year, there's more elk wounded and not recovered by taking broadside shots over 50 yards than there are frontal or "inside" the shoulders.
As a solo caller of elk, i admire Dan for going against the grain and coming up with something that works for the many 1/4 shots that I am sure he most often is presented with. I think that is a lot better than waiting until the elk wheels and spooks. But as far as the broadside hits that went above the lungs and below the spine...well, anadamicly speaking, that is an impossiblity wheather your talking elk, deer or mongaloid orangutans. This is a myth that has been around for a long time, and the primary reason it lingers is we think of the spine as located near the top of the back just under the hairline. The reality is the spine is 1/3 of the way down from the top of the back. Shots that look like they are on the top of the vitals are actually above the spine and most of these hits are non vital.
The bottom line is this shot works. If your not comfortable with it... Don't take it!! Frontal shots can be more effective and successful than broadside shots in my opinion.
Lets get some pics going and talk about shot placement that Bigdan uses.
Turkey the spine is not 1/3 of the way from the top of the back. I try to never show blood on my photos . So I don't have photos of the arrow holes I just don't take them.
I guess I was hoping to see more pictures with the aiming spot marked on the elk. Here are 2 photos that I found in the 2010 archives (one is from Big Dan and one is from BB). I'm interested in the benefits and limitations of this shot in regards to the elk's anatomy and skeletal structure. Obviously, some members are opposed to the shot but I was hoping to hear from those that actually take the shot and what conditions they look for to ensure an ethical shot. If the shot has worked for Big Dan 17/17 times, I'd like to know what he knows so I can duplicate the results!
That's a better picture of an elk actually quartering to. The last one was much closer to straight on.
I would have assumed on the enlarged photo that the upper portion of the scapula was a little farther forward than painted on.
That elk also has right foot forward which I'd assume is not as ideal for the shot.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dan, with that angle above, would you put the arrow in front of the shoulder?
The red dot is right on for going under the shoulder. Funny thing is most of my bulls I have shot on there right side. I never thought of it before till now.
I wish I had taken a picture of this elk from in front but perhaps this skeletal look will offer some perspective.
HighCountry, your pic would be helpful if it also had a sternum colored in.
Dan, will the shot on that red dot miss the scapula on the other side and pass through? Or what usually happens with the arrow on the other end?
Yes! The arrow is sticking out the hind quarter on the other side are passes through. Some times the pelvis stops it if the bull is above you. Zipperin that's a great photo showing the vitals notice how high the lungs go. The inside of the Scapula is flat and don't have the arrow stooping ridge that's on the out side you just must make sure you holding tite to the neck
and guys .... its ok to realize some people are just much better shots than you are and can make killing shots you can't
its ok to say it - it really is :)
I read the thread where the guy shot the sheep at 92 yards and the caribou at 106 yards
I cannot do that - but he can, and did. Nothing unethical when you can do those shots ... unethical for me because I cannot.
If I get to elk hunt in 2014, I'll have a 650-700 gr total setup and if presented with a frontal shot close up and it "feels" like I can make it, I'm taking it.
I would not take that shot on the elk with the red dot. It just does not look open to the vitals enough so id have no confidence.
The red dot with the leg and shoulder bone drawn in, I would take that same angle shot with the leg forward to the left of the leg and about 5 to 6 inches lower than the red dot . I killed my bull with that shot.
Im thinking that the bulls Dan is killing are probably a little more straight on than the ones shown with the red dots on them. It appears to me that both pics with red dots are same bull, second pic is blow up of first pic??
I also read where the guy shot the sheep at 92 and the caribou at 106. I cannot do that either. I have been unable to figure out how to tell an animal not to take a step while my arrow is on its way therefore its unethical for me to take it. Just sayin.
GBA
TBM I beg to differ on the below the spine above the vitals thing. I know that there may be only a small area, but it does exist despite what some "experts" write in magazines.
I shot a pronghorn there about fifteen years ago on my first antelope hunt. The next day, we saw him chasing does. He had a little blood line running down each side, but was completely healthy looking otherwise.
Maybe there's only a void on the exhale;)
Here's another shot placement photo that Big Dan posted back in 2011. Lets keep the pictures coming ...
From what I recall, Big Dan advised that the sweet spot was roughly 4"x16" and to aim inside the "point" of the heavy shoulder bones and a little inside the transition of the hair colors.
I've killed one elk with that shot back in about 04. Calling solo with 2 montana dekes and he just kept coming in a direct line to the dekes with me just off center. I doubt he would have turned. He was about 17 yds and my wind was going dangerously close to where he would be in a couple steps. A slow draw froze him and I shot quick- hitting the exact spot on one of the pics with the red dot above.
There is still some rib cage there- I like a full frontal under tthe mane better but that collar is a real good shot.
I had a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow. I'm shooting a high energy setup with tapered coc head which I knew from experience it will penetrate well on big animals. I wouldn't take the shot from a distance of more than say 25 yds or with a large mech head, YMMV.
I've shot one big whitetail that way and my buddies brother was all over me though the deer only went 25 yds and piled up in an open field. Why didn't you wait- he said. Well, I knew he was dead with that shot at point blank range- why wait for something bad to happen?
Myself and others that hunt with me have taken several elk using the frontal shot.
Is devastating
Here are a couple pics that show where I would place an arrow - out to 25yds
It is hard to argue Dan's success (along with many others like BB, Blacktail Bob etc).
Hater's are always gonna hate.
Julius
I've killed one elk with the frontal shot. i passed on others because of the position of the head, or just the feel of the encounter. I hunt alone mainly. the bull was uphill from me, at 8 yards. I was on my knees, and the bull with his head up and looking over me. he piled up a short distance away.
the effectiveness of this shot was talked and written about decades ago by some very well-known (not celebrities or bowsiters) elk hunters at the time.
"Because there are many, MANY wounded and lost animals to broadside shots, every year are there not?
Wounded and lost animals to "perfect" shots are identical to wounded and lost animals to not so perfect shots."
Yes, there are many animals lost on broadside shots every year. I think you need to look at in terms of risk or a percentage basis. The frontal shot is a smaller target then the lungs and liver when broadside. I also agree if you can make it, take it. I did, and would again. Don't forget, some percentage of elk hunters do not have the ability to keep their wits on a close frontal encounter. Thinking you are going to get run over by a snotted up 800 pound animal with antlers can rattle some. The same animal walking broadside gives a different feel to the situation.
Elkhuntr great insight by saying you passed "because of the position of the head or feel of the encounter." That comes with experience and reading the animal while staying calm in a split second. I have taken many white tails but have only taken one frontal shot and it had quick deadly results. But it was 5 years before I felt confident on a calm wt. I agree reading the animal is important. Tough to argue with big dan's success and results!
I was taught not to take a head-on/frontal shot and for many years I didn't take one. One day I was sitting a wallow and a 360 class bull was walking straight towards me from about 150 yds, as he got closer i drew my bow and waited for him to close the distance. At 12 yards he froze sensing something. Maybe scent? He stood there directly head on, head up, for 30-45 secs... I CLEARLY remember thinking "turn broadside you SO-, wait for a better shot". He wheeled around in an instant and was gone... I've regretted that decision many years.
3 years ago I snuck into a herd that was feeding, bull was bugling and cows were feeding 40 years in front of me. for some reason the bull started walking my direction. Straight to me, as he was coming he walked behing a tree and I drew my bow. The bull came to 6 yards facing me. I didn't hesitate and drilled him. Bull piled up in less than 10 yds away..
I won't hesitate to take a head-on or quartering to shot.
Lots of ways to access the vitals. Some have smaller margins of error than others. A close quartering-to shot is effective if executed correctly. Just like a 35 yard broadside shot is.
The Green & Yellow are my shots But I like the Blue also. But when your calling alone you don't get many blue chances.
"BWL- "I won't question ANY technique or tactic that Big Dan recomends." Really??? Ok. I guess thats one way to go through life..."
Elkman, are you serious, man? I only visit this site about a month before the season starts just because I need to get my fix. I post about once a year. And your response reminds me why. I used to visit it a lot more back when there were more guys like Big Dan who were humble and kind with their knowledge. Lately, each thread is filled up by a bunch of cyber tools arguing minutia and how their way isn't just the best, it's the only way. Your type has ran the good type off to go do their own thing. I posted something light because I chuckled when Dan told us in his interview that he had to miss an opener because of his daughter's wedding. Not laugh at him, but with him, because in his life, every man has to sacrifice something really great for something really great at one time or another. Most of us are hanging out after a day's works talking elk and waiting for the starting gun to fire so we can hit the hills. Not here to get blasted passively by some stranger for an innocuous comment. So here's some advice. Every morning when you wake up, rub your eyes, look in the mirror and tell yourself, "Nobody cares as much as you do." Maybe point at your reflection to make sure you understand. Then start contributing to the conversation.
Without getting involved with any 'back story', all I can say is that the positive posts have been extremely helpful, not least because I have me IBEP Field Day next month and ethical shot placement will be covered.
Frontal/quartering to shots are always contentious, but given close shots [20 yards or less] if I felt confident to take such a shot then I would. I aim for minute of angle out to 60 yards (my furthest PRACTICE distance with fieldpoints) so for 40 yards and closer, I like to be stacking arrows.
Glunt's skeletal image with the various colours is very very helpful; would you have a problem if I were to print off a copy and take with me on my Field Day....I'm sure our instructors will be keen to use it as a basis for group discussion?
Good luck and good hunting
Kenneth (A British Bowhunter and Proud of It)
I have used the frontal shot before and it is one of the quickest ways to kill an animal. Those that have never used it before are just missing out or just too blinded by their own misconceptions.
To me, it is just as preferable as slightly quartering away, just in reverse.
I've found this thread, along with the images, very interesting. This will be my 17th year elk hunting. What I have found is almost all the guys who I have met that lost bulls, tried to make quartering towards shots. However, they tried to sneak the arrow in behind the shoulder, and hit guts.
I have only tried getting in close and bugling at a bull once, in Nevada. I had no other choice. The funny thing was he came right in, but due to the terrain and trails I ended up with a 15 yard broadside shot. He did not run, just walked a few paces and bedded in front of me. And was my best bull so far at 350 7/8".
All this has made me interested in trying more of this close quarters bugling this year.
That skeleton I used was a pic from a royalty free 3d model I found online and then I just added the colored arrow paths. Somewhere there's an interactive version you can rotate and position at any angle but I can't seem to find it again.
I think everyone would agree that the broadside shot is the best, but I've found that being able to make the quartering to shot to be valuable. At 20 yards and in at a bull or buck focused on a call, decoy, caller/decoy, grazing, or whatever...it's a great shot and a lethal one. BUT!!! it's a shot you should take on the ground at eye level. IMHO.
GR, Heads Up Decoy
Great great information on this topic, as always. If it weren't for these topics, I would not have killed my first bull in 2009 with a frontal shot
Some people don't like them, and that's their choice. I passed up the frontal and quartering to angles on a bull last year at 19 yards because he was WIRED and I wasn't comfortable with it. He was drinking, was very very wired, twitching and ducking at every perceived sight or sound. He finally had enough and wheeled to leave, but stopped for one last look and I got the shot in broadside
Even if he had not given me that shot, I don't think I would regret passing on the frontal, because of his hyper-sensitive nature
Bake
A couple of observations. Most of the photos depict the aiming point too high. Especially the huge non-typical. That box should be about 4" lower.
It's often taught not to take a frontal shot because it shouldn't be attempted by beginners, no matter how good a target shot you are. Until you KNOW how steady a game shot you are, stick to less demanding shots. You have to know where that shoulder is and decide whether to shoot in front of it or behind, depending on how much angle. The guy who posted on another thread about kneeling or standing, who's legs are madly shaking as a bull comes in, probably shouldn't attempt it. ;-)
A quartering to shot will almost always result in heavier bone structure. Even the ribs are thicker up front, and it's almost impossible to get between them. If you are considering this shot, use a heavier arrow with a true COC head, especially on elk sized game.
I can't just let this one go. I respect Dan and his accomplishments, but really? There is NO void! A high lung shot is just that. A high lung shot. Occasionally it's not fatal. Usually, it's really a hit ABOVE the spine.
How did I know this would be an argumentative thread...If it wasn't so sad it would be popcorn time, alas its just so sad...
Mike
The funny thing is that most everyone that comments on this one way or thew other will, when all alone and presented with this type of shot on a bull or deer or anything else will try the shot Dan recommends. If it happens to fail, they might turn to my hamblaster shot because they have seen it work on video. Either way, me and Dan will be saying how do you like me know.
1st bull I ever killed was frontal. (2000) And it exited out of the hip area just like Dan mentioned. It was a "pisshead" as Dan put's it, but he was my elk.
I would have never taken the shot if I had not watched a video from Abe Moline and he explained it. It was an eye opener which caused me to really think about the arrow/broadhead and where it is traveling/what organs.
My chance came at 8 yards and he was curious. I remember thinking "turn broadside" then the light came on from the video. I could see his windpipe and arrow tranversed through his body. Watched him tip over. (See exit wound near leading edge of fletching)
Another reason to know the gutless method as it would have been a mess!
Anyone every make this shot with a traditional bow and kill the animal?
If so what's your draw and arrow weight?
"Anyone every make this shot with a traditional bow and kill the animal?"
I shot a bull at 9 yards with a 56# bow and GT3555 with a 145 tip (never weighed it). Entry in front of left shoulder, exit just behind the right shoulder. Severed the arteries at the top of the heart.
Been bowhunting a long time and I think thats the first quartering to shot I have taken on big game. Slow bows, wired animals and small sweet spots surrounded by heavy bone mean its just rarely a choice for me.
Glunt nailed it wth that pic. There are a great many angles to killing animals.
The key to ANY shot is getting a sharp broadhead into the vitals, lungs, heart, arteries.
You have to know where the vitals REALLY are and where the big bones REALLY are. Any angle that misses the big bones and hits the vitals is a dead animal. Simple.
I think people get married to a "spot" on the outside of the animal they want to hit, where they always aim, and angles mean little, they just hold to that spot. IMO the key is visualizing where you want to hit INSIDE the animal, it's 3 dimensional and ALL about the angles and anatomy.
For me it's a spot just at the top of the heart. To me the heart itself is just a bit on the low side to aim a,. but a killer if you hit a bit low. I do have a tendency to hit low on big animals like elk. Just a personal bad habit.
Now.... sometimes the tricky part is keeping it together enough to actually pull off the shot.... can't help ya there.... But if you aren't confident you will hit exactly where you are aiming or unsure of the angle, there's nothing wrong with passing that shot. Nothing at all.
Below are a couple pics of a nice cow I called into my buddy. He drilled her at 20yds... with an expandable. She didnt travel 20yds afte being hit.
A few days later after the cow, I called in this raghorn to my other buddy [brothers]. He also made a frontal shot from 20yds.
You can see the entrance hole by his right hand. The entire arrow disappeared into the elk.
You need to evaluate the angles for yourself, I tend to pass most any time I need to put the arrow in front of the near shoulder. I have a short draw length and don't shoot enough weight to offset it. However if the angle is such that I can still shoot behind the shoulder and have the arrow exit reasonably close to the middle of the elk, I know its a fatal shot. That said, I also don't stop shooting as long as the hit elk is on his feet and visible. See attached pic, exit hole near center of body is from first shot at 44 yards. Pass through with 100 gr vpa 3 blade. Lower hole is entrance from when bull stopped at 52 yards quartered hard away to see what just bit him. He went about 5 more yards after that hit and tipped over. Avoid the big bones in the legs/shoulders and you won't have any issues. Just my $.02
"Anyone every make this shot with a traditional bow and kill the animal? If so what's your draw and arrow weight?"
Sure, I did. About 28" draw, 57 pounds, and about 570 grains. 2 blade broadhead.
"Either way, me and Dan will be saying how do you like me know."
TurkeyMaster, as I posted above, this shot isn't new and wasn't invented by Dan. There are some well known bowhunters who talked and wrote about this shot many years ago. It wasn't broadcast like it is today, nor were they the type that asked how do you like them now.
I'll wait until I have a broadside or quartering away shot with my recurve. I'm only shooting 50 pounds with one of Dan Toelke's bows.
A few years ago I shot a bull broadside at 12 yards. The only thing sticking out behind the front shoulder was the fletching. It was right behind the front shoulder and the arrow was perpendicular to the body of the elk. I was thrilled with the shot. The arrow punched through both lungs. I was shooting a three blade Wensel Woodsman that cut hair on my arm about 30 minutes before I took the shot.
The bull wheeled and ran downhill into a meadow, dropped his head like he was going to do a cartwheel and then stiffened up, straightened up and walked into the shadowy timber along the edge of the meadow. He was walking very slowly. I'm thinking we're going to find him piled up over there.
That was 8:30 a.m.. We waited an hour, walked over and found very little blood. We did not find the elk right away. The deadfall was chest height. Ugly country to find an elk in. I knew he was dead, it was just a matter of finding him.
Like spokes on a wheel, we ran lines out 400 yards long and 20 yards wide with three guys. It took us until 3:30 in the afternoon to finally find him. It was obvious that he fell over while walking. His head was twisted into a log indicating he didn't bed down and then die.
What happened? The arrow punched through both lungs but only deflated the first lung. There was a paper plate size blood spot on the opposite shoulder. The arrow penetrated the second lung, was pulled back when the bull brushed up against a tree on his way to the meadow and then the arrow tip was thrust into the paunch.
I would have looked for that bull for several days. I was shocked he went as far as he did. I'm now shooting the Zwickey Delta two blade as I can sharpen that head even sharper than the Woodsman.
Sometimes even a nobrainer double lung broadside shot can result in a long blood trail and search. Been there.
I love seeing pictures of dead elk! :)
And I love elk season!
And soon it will be here! :)
I shot a bull that piled up in a avalanche shout under all the piles of dead trees I had to quarter him with out gutting him hanging from tree limbs. I looked like an ax murderer blood from one end to the other. That bull had a broadhead in the ridge of the scapula from a quartering away shot. A week or so before.
BigD. That scapula would be cool to see. Still have it?
Taxidermist find all kinds of crazy objects in animals. I have seen about 3" of a broken tine come out of a whitetail. I shot a high ranking ohio buck in 98' and the taxi said he had been shot in the neck w/ a 22lr, obviously non fatal.
Yes I do have it with the Hoyt bow bullet in it I also have a Thunder head in a back bone.
I have a 30" (OK, 29 3/4") axis euro I shot in May with what looks like a healed up .22 bullet mark dead center in his forehead.
Just deboned a buck yesterday that was pretty strange, had an orange blazer fletch in his neck meat. I was trimming off the neck and this orange thing just appeared in the meat. No infection or anything out of the ordinary, just the orange fletch falls out that looked like it just came out of the package. Had a small scar on the hide. That's all.
Buggers get lucky. Sometimes.
I'm sure if you give them a choice at the relative outcome of the encounter.... they'd take lucky all week long and twice on Sundays....
Which goes to show ya, obviously it's true.....
Blazers are tough to get to stick well to the shaft..... =D
"Which goes to show ya, obviously it's true.....
Blazers are tough to get to stick well to the shaft..... =D"
LOL!
Casy it depends on the angle of the shot I use a 1 1/2 dia. Striker mag Broadhead. If the bull is more straight on I get one lung and the liver. But most of the time I get both lungs. My Utah bull the last one I made that shot on only went 30 yds and I could here the blood hitting the ground. It sounded like I was pouring paint out of a 5 gal bucket into a roller pan.
I can't remember any of them going over 100 yds most around 50. All of my one lung hits have had exit holes.
I killed a cow 2 years ago with a frontal shot. She walked straight at me and stopped at 17 yards. The entrance wound was almost exactly as shown in the cow photo above.
I shoot a 72 lb bow, with 29" 2315 tipped with 125 Thunderheads. During the necropsy, the back half of the arrow was found in the stomach, but we could not find the front half. However, when deboning the ham, you could see where the broad head had passed through it. The front half of the arrow turned down just under the hide on the back of the ham and ended up about where you would cut around the leg to start skinning. Only thing I could figure is that when she bolted, it snapped the arrow and went down her back leg.
Tons of penetration. She went 30 yards. Little blood for the first 10 but after that it was pretty gruesome.
I'd take the shot again, if it felt right. Growing up bow hunting whitetails, it was always a no no, but it worked for me on an elk at close range.
This was a quartering to shot at 35 yards after cow-calling this bull across open sage. This was my first elk with archery equipment and I was shooting a 58 pound compound with muzzy 4-blade heads.
I don't think I'd take this shot again at that distance. Honestly, I'm not good enough to hit it at that distance...maybe like Dan said, inside the 20 yard line.
I caught too much of the shoulder and didn't get great penetration. Luckily, the bull bled profusely and traveled less than 100 yards, even without an exit. The bull was down in under 30 seconds.
I believe you have more than enough penetration with that shot angle.
Ace of spades Thanks for the laugh! I assume there is not to many hunting nerds around , or hill billies with your computer skills! I appreciate being able to see the inards
hey Barty, The bowhunter safety instructors I've met don't look kindly on that front quartering shot...just saying....if you really want to pass.
It's an app I just downloaded made by RMEF. I'm far from a computer guy!
Josh
The hole in the diaphram is jot going to have much affect unless air can come into the hole and allow the lungs to collapse. Thrn it will basically shut him down.
A frontal shot passing through one lung and diaphragm is going to cause bleeding and collapse of only that lung. There will also be broadhead damage distal to the diaphragm wherever the arrow penetrates. The lung cavities have separate linings.
Thanks Beendare; I've picked up on that so the frontal shot is off the menu ;-)
Personally, I think Ace of Spades shot placement is a little too far right with the bull at that angle.
I shot this bull on my first elk hunt in 1998. I called him in to 8 yards and he was standing at almost the exact angle that Ace of Spades fake bull is standing at; I was on my knees. This was long before I had read any discussions about frontal shots. I was at full draw and when he stopped at 8 yards I could see the shot and I knew I could kill him. I shot about 3 inches to the left of the red dot, just to the right of the tan hair/brown hair transition.
If I remember correctly, I got both lungs. He was down in 107 yards.
Darn, the Lethal Shot app isn't on Android yet!
Whatever Big Dan does that is a highly dependable shot for him in the hunting situation he typically encounters is A-OK with me.
I've shot a bunch of whitetails with that quarter to look. Everyone of them have went down within 30 yards. The last one went down in 10 yards! This is my first elk season and I wouldn't hesitate to take this shot 100% of the time!
One thing that would help a lot of guys is using full 3D leafy camo with the head/face well camo'd. Most elk hunters are far from being invisible. I've had elk walk right by me no problem at all when fully camo'd in this way. Be patient and let them walk by a bit before drawing. Also, they are not nearly as spooky when they have passed you by and will often pose longer.
In most of the videos/shows on elk hunting I've seen, the elk hunter is far from being fully camo'd. Go full out with leafy 3D camo or even a ghillie and it is a game changer. Great for all bowhunters, esp. trad. bowhunter. Virtually raises the issue of why use a compound when you can have elk so close. I'm taking it one step farther by using a lighter bow I can hold at draw almost like a compound. Penetration is not an issue with the right broadhead and great arrow flight.
Re: the objection a elk walking by will wind you, of course it depends on wind. I'm not saying Dan's method is not viable, I prefer to have both options and 3D full out camp is a game changer for getting close shots although yes, one can get close shots wearing jeans or whatever at times.
Let's keep the pics coming.
Look up on YouTube -Elk anatomy front- it has a autopsy of a frontal shot and my take on where the hole is in the front, . Not able to put link on here with a my tablet.
Great video Gaur, thanks for posting
All this talk is cheap...why dont we get some videos of the frontal shots and recoverys and post them on bowsite like I did my hamblaster video and see how they compare. I bleav I will go out and ham blast a couple a hawgs and make a couple how do you like me now vids.
All this talk is cheap...why dont we get some videos of the frontal shots and recoverys and post them on bowsite like I did my hamblaster video and see how they compare. I bleav I will go out and ham blast a couple a hawgs and make a couple how do you like me now vids.
I have to say after watching that video the frontal shot looks like a pretty small area. Thanks for posting
When the elk is standing the legs are more spread out rather than laying on its side. Turkey when you have a limit of one you just don't go out in the back yard and shoot an elk and make a video of it.
Wouldn't a limit of one be easier than 5? That is one of the reasons I video because it makes it harder and extends my season, otherwise I would limit out in a couple of weeks and the fun would be easier. Maybe I misunderstood. Self video is taking hunting to the most challenging level and few will ever up to the task.
Very informative....thanks for posting Gaur!
Mark
Success rate on bull elk is around 10%. Success rate on bull elk while getting decent footage of the kill is ridiculously low. The lost opportunities and hassle of lugging gear around make videoing elk hunts unattractive to most folks.
Saying self videoing is taking hunting to its most challenging level is like saying hunting nude with a selfbow you built that morning is taking it to the most challenging level. Yeah, its challenging as heck but just holds no appeal for many people.
Some hunts are video friendly. Lots of opportunities, blinds, treestands, time to set-up gear, not much money invested in it if it goes wrong, plenty of season days to hunt, multiple tags, not 3 miles from the truck when you finally get a shot, etc.
There's a reason killing 50+ elk is uncommon and killing 50+ whitetails isn't.
Thank you Gaur! That really puts the frontal shot in perspective, so when some of us attempt it this year we know where to shot. Rather than just thinking we know.
Where you point out the scapula is another great point to consider. We can look at models and skeletons all day but when you see it pointed out on the animal it hits home. Also the spine.
I put one up in the "dead" area as a combination of elk spook, slip (slick rock basin), and about mid body aim @40yds. Needless to say I never found it and I'm 100% sure that elk lived, but it still made me sick!
The more I learn about elk hunting, the more it sounds like turkey hunting in the deep south.
If elk hunting sounds more like turkey hunting, u need to try chasing elk.
As to the frontal or frontal quartering shots, my mind was changed a couple years ago. It is a great short range option and when solo hunting elk, it will probably double your shot opportunity and success rate. I haven't used it enough to prove out the numbers but my present experience shows it to be at least a little more deadly than broadside.
The more I learn about elk hunting, the more it sounds like turkey hunting in the deep south.
Maybe in a zoo its the same. I have done both and except for the calling nothing is the same
After doing the autopsy I agree with BigDan on a slight quartering shot , there's also another video I made with more close ups of the bulls shoulder and fronts . By the way Dan did you tell that turkey you wanted to sleep with his wife !
The other youtube video is -yellowstone elk shoulder/front anatomy-
"Self video is taking hunting to the most challenging...
Videoing has NOTHING to do with hunting. It's a whole separate endeavor.
Gaur, Is that the same shot placement book that shows a Musk ox with a tail? :-)
Videoing your hunt has everything to do with hunting if that's your intent. It also makes it much harder!!!! Its not evil! I think you may mean that it isn't an essential part and I would agree. I always mean to video my hunts but I get too excited and end up leaving the gear in the truck. We are all getting sidetracked from a good topic of discussion.
Zeik is right, I just forgot about the part where I roll the footage and then go back and get my hunting gear and jump in to the schemes before they fade away. Not anymore difficult, just have to be quick.
I just posted the link for "Westaner". It was his video. I found it helpful too. Here is the Yellowstone one he was referring to.
Haha I think NBCsprts is the only channel I get with hunting shows, but just saw Tom Miranda/Territories Wild, make this same shot on a cape buffalo. Last fall on that same show his guide called in a massive caribou and he also made that shot. They never made any comment on the shot angle in either show.
Holy Sh@#. TBM is Napolean Dynomite?! Eat your food Tina!
Zim1, I wish hunting shows would go more into depth on the details rather than just posing w/ the animal long enough to thank all their sponsors. Among those details I'd like to hear about terminal performance (bullets), BH holes and the BH post shot, score to help audience w/ field judging...etc.
ohiohunter, Yes my first thought was they should have explained the circumstances required to allow the shot. They said absolutely nothing. They were both very close shots and taken exactly the way Dan describes. I have to wonder how many newbie hunters saw the show and what they were thinkin.
It is almost comical listening to people that never take a quartering to or frontal shot when there is so much evidence that it is one of the deadliest shots.Thanks Dan and BB as I used to be leery of these shots until reading your posts. While I have not used this shot on elk I have on whitetails and the only problem I have had is getting all the blood cleaned up for pictures.
TBM- Have you ever hunted elk with your bow? You sound like you have not, yet you act like its going to be easy and you are an expert? What's your story?
I have statistics on my side...tufrkey hunting in the south is just like elk hunting....there are more elk taken in Colorado by bowhunters from Alabama than there are turkey taken with bow an arrow in the entire south. All the facts and data says elk are somewhat easier than southere ntukeys. If I can find em, there dead...its that simple
Turkey you pulled that right out of your butt You know nothing about elk hunting. Its time for you to get off the elk threads your just making a fool of your self. After you hunt elk a time are two come back on and tell us how you did. In Montana 8% of the hunters take 80% of the elk. The only elk hunter I know of from your state that was successful was busted for hunting in Yellowstone park. I'm sure there are some from your state that kill elk but you are not one of them.
BigDan- Thank You!! Well said.
TBM- So you never answered my question....have you ever even hunted elk with your bow? To compare it to turkey hunting in terms of difficulty is a joke and tells me you have not. " turkey hunting in the south is just like elk hunting".....Dude that is laughable. Take Bigdans advice and go somewhere else with your expertise and knowledge. Try the turkey forum it's where you belong.
Let's get back to quarter to shots. Some good info. Not compare elk to turkeys
I wonder how many guys wont take a 25yd frontal on an elk but let'er rip from 70yds on a broadside pronghorn?
When I practice my shooting I only shot 40 yds if I can keep all my arrows in a 6inch circle any closer and its a slam dunk. When I'm calling elk my pin is set at 35yds and I never move it unless. I have time to use my range finder. I think every one that uses a single pin should set there pin at a set yardage then shoot there bow at 20,30 50 60 yds with holding high or low.
Knowing what I know now, I should have takin the frontal shot on a very good bull in colorado in 1989. I heard the the bull rite at day light. Moved down this trail, looking up the firebreaks. On the third break, he was rite there. About 100 yds. I cow called to him an he ran rite up to me. I was at full draw. He was at 10 feet. I didn't shoot because I was new to elk hunting and the snooty elk experts that think they are the GREAT WHITE HUNTERS told me nothing put broadside or quartering away only shots. At the time, I was shooting fingers and could shoot a baseball size group at 40 yards with broadheads. Today, I shoot with release an at the same distance, I shoot about 1 1/2" groups. An like BIGDAN says, shoot with one pin. I do this for whitetails and the pin is set for 20 yards. But, where I have my stands, I can only get max. 15 yards. It is that thick.
sure everybody should take head on shots and wounding loss pctg can go up how many of you can make a 4 inch circle at 25 yards 10 out of 10? don't care what the worlds foremost elk expert has to say this thread is irresponsible to elk hunting flame away
"...could shoot a baseball size group at 40 yards with broadheads."
And I'm willing to bet that with your first bull staring you in the face, that statement is completely irrelevant. You got good advice from those "snooty elk experts". You need HUNTING experience before attempting it. When you gain that experience, and know without a doubt how you perform on real live animals, (and experience on WTs only isn't the same as more varied experience), you will know when you're comfortable attempting it. If you were ready for that shot, you wouldn't have needed to be so concerned with their opinion.
brooky maybe you should just file the barbs of your hook and stick to fishing.
Great thread.Big Dan i shoot a mbg ascent ambush but im a little slow of fps or i would do just what you said.Im not gonna hesitate on that shot on whitetails anymore.never been elk hunting but great thread!
"Im not gonna hesitate on that shot on whitetails anymore."
Be aware, that shot is not very well suited for treestand angles. Best at ground level and CLOSE. Especially with spooky whitetails.
Just a few photos to look at and think about your shooting options.
Have a great bowhunt. BB
BB, would you put a dot on your first photo? I'm think in front of the shoulder?
Thanks!
Julius
Notice on BB's last photo you can see the hole in the front , sunk in . Anybody considering these shots need to study bulls with winter coats and thicker necks after they have been rubbing for a while. Study more videos of bulls, hopefully I'LL get more close ups of bulls in the park, but it will be after season when I post them
I placed a dot where I would want my arrow to hit within that area. There is actually a larger margin than the dot on the vertical line, but its rather narrow on the horizontal line, so if you take this shot, you should limit it to a very close shot. I would like 20 yards or less.
In my next post, I will show you a spike I shot a couple years back that the quarter was not as sharp as this one. It enabled me to shoot behind front leg bone. The bull made it about 40 yards.
Here's the photo of that spike. If you look close, you can see the outside entrance wound. Be advised the arrow hit behind the leg bone as the bull was not quartered to me enough to shoot in front of it. But be warned, on shots like this one must be far up front. If you shot that shot and hit the crease, you would have an elk with only one lung hit and they can go a long, long way if both lungs are not hit. If you hit forward you take the arteries off the top of the heart that lead to the ascending or descending aorta. In either case, death is swift and usually within a few seconds.
In my next post I will show an enlarged photo of the entrance wound so you can where it is located in relation to the leg bone, neck, etc.
Here's the enlarged photo of the entrance wound so you can see, more clearly than in the small previous photo.
Have a great bow hunt. BB
Bill, can you draw in where the front leg bones lie in that last close up pic?
BB. Thanks for posting. That bull with the red dot I have trouble seeing how you would catch enough vitals unless he turned towards you a bit more. Seems to me you would be right of the heart and only get the far lung. Can you explain what the arrow hits from that angle?
Here is a pic of another buddy's 2012 bull.
This shot isnt hard to justify...
Great thread. Any time any of us as hunters is in a potential situation we have to take all factors into consideration. Range, angle, our skill level, the level of alertness in the animal. To me this thread has shown that this is a deadly shot if conditions are right. If I'm faced with it I need to decide if those conditions are right for me at that time. It's no different than taking a shot from any angle, you always need to ask yourself "can I make this shot right now". Again, great thread.
"how many of you can make a 4 inch circle at 25 yards 10 out of 10?"
I can and I consider that very easy.
Hell, I'm 10 out of 10 at 45 yards in a 4 inch circle.
If you cant hit 10/10 in a 4 inch circle at 25 yards with a compound then, IMO, you are not a good archer, IMO, should not be taking the frontal/quartering shots, and IMO, need to practice more.
Gaur, the main reason I posted that photo is get guys thinking. The way he is standing does make for a tough shot, not doubt about that. And one that should only be taken at very close range. I personally would not take it until he turned a bit more, one way or another. But someone ask me to place a dot and that's why I did that. Where I placed the dot, is where I would like to hit. I took that photo, and I know the angle from which I stood when I took that photo. Others have to imagine that. But with all that said, if one hit in that area he would hit the arteries that come off the top of the heart. I know there are a couple of vets that frequent this site and perhaps they could jump in and better explain the anatomy. I just know there is a bundle of arteries and veins in that area and if I knew I could hit that area, I know I would watch the bull go down. But like I said, as he stands, I personally would pass that shot and wait, as I am not the super shot that many are. But we all need to really understand the anatomy of the the animals we hunt and when one really understand that, you learn quickly that there are many shots that are good and many that one needs to pass on.
Have a great bowhunt. BB
I thought the first one was a bit "iffy" myself, that's a tight angle around those big bones. Almost in no mans land... there are angles that likely shouldn't be taken.
Could have been a better angle before or maybe after? Many times an animal will catch your drawing motion and turn more toward you, more toward you being a better angle in that first pic. If he catches your motion and is turning away you're likely screwed anyway.... =D
Another thing to consider is the uphill/downhill angles, aim a bit higher or lower. That is why IMO you have to think 3D as in where inside the animal you want to hit. Not just memorize a spot on the outside of it.
Thanks BB. Great learning pics. Always appreciated.
If you know you can make it take it. If you second guess if for a second dont even try it. I know what I can do with my bow all day everyday. This is why I shoot year around almost everyday.
I have done that shot and it worked great. I have seen people take broadside shots that they screwed up. Its not always the shot. Its the archer most of the time. If you cant do it dont try and force a shot.
That being said I am a pretty good elk hunting machine now and will shadow the heard for hours. I will get the shot I need and dont feel the need to rush them. Last year I passed up the same bull a few times because I did not feel comfortable with the shot. Then I take a full on frontal at 20 yards because it was a perfect set up. He walked in and put his nose in a cows butt. He was calm and he did not even have his eyes on me. If he had been on alert looking at me no way.
Some great archers bloviating on this thread, have not heard from many BOWHUNTERS though. I'll take my advise from BOWHUNTERS like Dan, thank you.
Here is what I am seeing on this thread.
1. Folks questioning others for taking these shots when in reality they are just pushing (Their) values AKA limitations on others.
2. Proof that the frontal quartering shot can and is extremely lethal.
3. This not only works well on elk but other large game animals Caribou, Cape Buffalo, Deer, and possibly turkeys in the south?
4. Once again the ever so to often (In-fighting) here on bowsite.
5. Just like anyshot you will take, whether it be broadside, quartering away, etc. if you are uncomfortable taking it DON'T! No one is with you yelling SHOOT, SHOOT!
6 All hunters on this site have a set of limitations. Including the LEGENDS (Blacktail Bob, Big Dan, Medicemann, Big Pizza Man, Etc.) Some are just on a different scale at this time in their hunting career.
I will ask this about limitations. How do you ever plan to expand those limitations without more practice or pushing yourselves at the test of time?
I used to never take frontal shots because I grew up hearing to never take them completely unethical. Well I had a buddy bust a deer one time back in 1989 frontal shot. The deer took 3 steps and just dropped! One of the ones I took once the deer literally just dropped never flinched or moved.
Every hunting season we have a shooting contest when Serbian Shark comes into camp. No ranging the distance or anything jusy eyeing it and taking an educated guess. and the shots are all at a minimum of 35 yards out to 83 yards.
We did this to prove to some members of our hunting camp that some of us are better than others at long distance and at judging distance but also to show that we all have limitations.
I think this year I will set the 3d target up at a frontal shot angle to see how that plays out? One to see who will take it, and the other to see what is each one maximum distance on this shot.
I dont think I have ever taken a quartering towardds shot any further than 22 yards. But I hunt nast thick bedding areas usually.
I only saw one negative "anti" frontal shot post on this entire thread (brooktrout). The rest of the posts have been very civil and positive.
Back in 2000, I passed on a frontal shot on a massive bull walking straight toward me at 20 yards, at 12 yards, everything went wrong..........it still haunts me that I did not shoot that bull at the 18-20 yard mark as I was shooting a heavy arrow and a very fast Mathews Black Max bow at the time. Rookie mistake that let a massive bull get away. Now, 25 yards or shorter, I will drop the hammer. I have alot more experience now and several good bulls under my belt, but still haunted by the giant that got away back in 2000...........
WillPower
Great thread guys! Thanks for the info
I have only had the balls to take this shot 2 times. Both times the bulls were shot at lees than 10 yards. Total distance traveled between the 2 bulls is less than 50 yards.
Very effective when they are close no doubt.
Sure as heck not goona question what works for BigDan !!
Its going to be very interesting how many shoulder blades get whacked on the wheel and go. It will be even more interesting on who got the guts to fess up because it going to happen. Somebody going to get aggressive and try this thang out to 30 and wheel and go is going to get em...gaurnteed.
The only thing I have ever shot frontal on, was a mountain lion crouched and ready to leap on me.
I was calling a 6 point bull, at around 30 yrds everything looked good, I was at full draw, and the bull through on the breaks and wheeled off.He still might be running. I thought for a minute about the wind, it was good, my cover looked good the bull wasn't looking right at me. I was perplexed. I causally turned around and looked straight at this cat crouched ready to leap off the rock he was on, and on to me. I drew the already knocked arrow and let him have it. The cat spun around and had the entire arrow hanging from his behind with the fletching the only thing holding on. He only went a short distance.
mr big I will fish as much as I can but elk hunting this sat for my 42nd year in a row, guided elk hunters?bow hunters for 32 of em in a row, first elk over 40 years ago so yes I will go fishing but wont cut into my hunting time some of your stuff don't add up, you can hit a 4x16 area 17 times in a row but miss a 22 inch circle? no doubt there are lost elk on a broadside shot but no where near the % on a quartering towards shot not even close, now you may be the greatest bowhunter in the world but most guys don't practice enough and can't hit an 8 inch plate more than 5 out of 10 times at 30 yards, factor in a 800 lb mammal that is tearing shit up and it is irresponsible to advocate this marginal shot to the masses. no matter what shot I choose to take I am the one who lives with it and the same goes for the best bowhunter in the world
I would say far more heavy bones get hit on full broadside shots. Guys get "aggressive" with broadside as well. Especially so on elk, folks thinking they have a much bigger target to shoot at. A buddy's bull this year in OR had a half dissolved thunderhead buried in the upper bones of it's spine. That wasn't a frontal shot.
In all honesty, hitting heavy bone is not the end of the world to me because I know in nearly all cases the animal recovers quite well. Maybe wicked off I didn't kill it. But given the options I'm sure the animal would pick that that outcome every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Hitting back, or one lung, marginal hits to vital organs.... 1000 yard blood trails or no blood trail at all, in country that just goes on forever in all directions.... that's the pits as gut shot is dead. But very often unrecovered.
Just killed an antelope last night with a frontal shot at 13 yards. I know it's not an elk. But the blood loss was unreal. Pronghorn went down fast.
Why do some guys mention 'the masses, most hunters etc". Your desire to protect n govern others is wrong.
If someone is gonna push their skills too far it isn't big Dan's fault. Is it brooktrouts fault when spook spann shoots a broadside deer at 100yds? By trout's own logic it is. You guys gotta get it through your head that advocates of the shot haven't told other people to do it and in fact have ardently expressed the need to only take this shot at ranges which the shooter considers it a chip shot.
Looks like a proven shot to me. I havnt seen anyone write in about losing an animal due to this shot. Just like mentioned in this thread, shoot within your capabilities. I would not hesitate on this shot at close range. Thanks Bigdan for giving me another option in my bow hunting arsenal.
moosenelson, articulated perfectly.
I can't believe that somebody as experienced as bigdan thinks you can shoot a elk between lungs and spine!
Steve and how many elk kills have you been on in ILL. You clam your a bowhunter And you have never heard of No mans Land.
There are always a few jackasses on the web...
Bigdan, thanks again and I as well as many others hope there is a part 2 to this interview.
We have a broadhead results thread and if it dont get pushed into the bowsite black hole then maybe somebody will post pictures of a spine shot and show that the arrow had to pass through the top of a lung to get to the spine(ground level shot). I have shot through the spine from atreestand and caught the top of the nearside lung and into the farside. Not everone who disagrees with someone is ahole...just like everone who agrees with someone is not always sucking up to them.
I have my IBEP Field Day this coming Sunday...and WON'T be mentioning this shot (deadly effective though it clearly is)...
And Turkey were would put your self?
pic of arrow on its way to my first quartering to shot ever!
bowhunting since 1968' I never heard of a quartering to shot, should either broadside or quartering away.
then I had an opportunity to hunt with BB, this is a still from the vidio he took. it took five bottles of water to clean up the animals front before we could take pictures,
You can lead a horse to water...
huntdoug, can you take us through what happened on the inside of that animal?
For instance, did you go through/over/under the spine? Etc
Would be nice if you showed the next frame on the lope as a shadow would be created as it entered as it was shot art hi noon. I guess I could make a good case to shoot in front of the shoulder on bs shots as I have hit 4 like that and recovered all 4. One was the before mention. 6 foot wide blood trail and sprayed on vegetation chest high. It severed the windpipe and juggler vein and deer was sucking blood in and spraying it out. Also 1 for 1 on the hamblaster.
Here's another proof of the quartering shot devastation - This past week...
42 yards broke his shoulder in 3 places got lung aorta heart live guts
shot this lope 45 yards I never seen a animal expire faster then this one hit here ,, I shot he turned and was down in a instant never made it 3 steps . Arrow went out the ham area!
City, it looks like you split him open with an axe!
Turkey, I have no idea how you can possibly compare Elk to Turkey Hunting. Possibly if turkeys can smell you might have a leg to stand on but in this case it only shows your ignorance on this subject. If you simply read or just listen to this man and some of these other fine folks you might learn something, respectfully.
Dan, it looks like we hunted the same area. I hunt NW Montana approx 7 miles from the Idaho border. Those mountains made this Yankee a much better hunter. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I also enjoyed your comments on newbies just focusing on getting an elk your first few times. That's what I did and it's great advice. Much Peace and Happiness!
Dans description of elk hunting andbmine for turkey are word for word the same except I don't have to play wind and I call from the same level or above. I do have to pay more attention to being hid as trukeys see and react to what they see a lot quicker than what ivsee from elks. If you campate my success with that of others a lot more people ought to try elk hunting for turkeys.
Hopefully I get the opportunity in 10 days and a wake up:):):) Ill take that shot if presented. Thanks Big Dan, Pat, BB and all the other contributors with pics and all... Keep it up
City , That is awesome ! you got an antelope with 2 heads ! LOL
City Hunter what kind of broadhead did you use?
This cross section of a deer is from one of the old "void" or "no man's land" threads. The white dot is the spinal cord and the brownish red things are the lungs.
It clearly shows that there is no "void" or gap between the lungs and the spine.
No disrespect to Bigdan intended but there's is no "void" in a deer. Maybe elk are different....?
If you in flat the lungs with air like a balloon there is no space but when the animal breathes there is a void.
The chest cavity is a vacuum. There can be no void as long as that vacuum exists.
The only space between the lungs and chest wall is a thin pleural cavity. On that old "void" thread we had a surgeon/doctor explain how there isn't/can't be a void in the chest cavity.
The chest cavity expands and contracts pulling air in and pushing it out. The lungs are "glued" to the walls of the chest cavity by the "pleural" cavity. This is what actually bring the air in and pushes it out. The lungs do not work like a balloon - actually the opposite.
That area may have some lungs but not much and those outer fringes of the lungs have little to no major blood vessels. Many animals been hit there and not only were lost, but survived as well.
Lungs aren't a balloon that gets popped where ever you hit them. Lung shots, even double lung, are not 100% fatal.
While technically there may not be a "void", in reality and personal experience, for all practical purposes there certainly is a "void". Whatever a person wants to call it.
A fraction higher and you've hit oil though.... a gusher, hit that artery and they don't go far.
Just wanted to add: great info on the frontal shot possibilities and effectiveness.
the lope was a stinger 2 blade.
Physical void? No.
No mans land that results in lower percentage recovery with high chest hits? Absolutely. TD explained it well.
Above lungs below spine void doesn't seem to exist in the picture but there is a lot of space between the top of the lungs/spinal cord and the top of the back. In my experience, depending on angle the shot is taken from ( above or level) a shot in this area can either drop them in their tracks or leave one walking to likely recover. Several years back, was deer hunting when a buddy shot one 100 yrds off The deer dropped at the shot. And the hit was in this area. The arrow stayed in the deer as it came trotting by me. Too far out for me to take a shot. I watched the deer go out into the field and feed for the next 45 minutes, finally walking out of the field at the other end. We tracked the deer for two miles before losing the trail. 37 days later, the deer was killed during gun season 1 1/2 miles from the original bow shot. Infected, but still doing fairly well. So, I would venture to guess that an elk would have a bigger area above the lungs/spinal cord and top of back in which a person could shoot an arrow through and not kill and/or recover the animal. Seems like it gets into a little semantics as where the "void" actually is or what is is between ( over or under).
I don't know about animals, but in humans, the lungs are not attached to the outside of the chest wall.
Otherwise, there would be no such thing as a "collapsed lung." How would it collapse if it were suspended?
Every deer I've double lunged, upon autopsy, had lungs the size of a summer sausage inside a big empty space swimming in a 1/2 gallon of blood.
Its amazing to me why we always consult a doctor to tell what happens when we hit a deer. I kilt a bunch and they jumpy Alabama deer always squat and high lung shots are the most common hit and I can tell you I don't need no doctor to tell you what happens on double lung shots...they run80 yard max and they fall. I dont need a doctor to tell me that or no physician, sociologist or shrink.. I dont need the CIA or KFC...they run 80...and fall. I dontvneed OBGYN or CNN. I dontvneed the NAAICPA, hunpty dumptu, or ole MacDonald...they run 80...and fall. Thats ateEIEIOver.
TBM- What you really need is Dr. Phil:)
"I don't know about animals, but in humans, the lungs are not attached to the outside of the chest wall. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as a "collapsed lung." How would it collapse if it were suspended?
Every deer I've double lunged, upon autopsy, had lungs the size of a summer sausage inside a big empty space swimming in a 1/2 gallon of blood."
A lung collapses when air enters the area between the lung and the chest wall. That is why they look all shrivelled up. Happened to a buddy. Docs had no idea why, he was just walking along and BOOM. Worst pain in his life. Thats when I first learned of how a lung functions.
Lungs are in a vacuum...we don't breathe in air and expand the lungs...the diaphragm retracts and creates a vacuum and draws air in
Bump to the top. A great old thread.
Anyone who hunts elk alone should understand the pros and cons of this shot.
Another photo to add to this thread...
I shot this bull on 9/21/13, just 18 days after my last post on this thread. It was a 19 yard shot almost directly straight on and I was slightly below the bull. He bled profusely.
Mike, What did the arrow hit that stopped penetration?
Just curious...my one and only bull, frontal shot, and I was downhill, the arrow disappeared into the bull and was stuck back in the hip.
A little advice for you guys...do NOT Google search danny moore frontal shot....oh, boy. Was talking to some buds at work about the shot and placement etc. Wanted to show them the pics posted here and the imagery was not the same. Trust me...
midwest,
I didn't open him up so I'm not sure. The arrow was bloody all the way up to the fletching so I wonder if the arrow worked its way out somehow. I was also wondering if the broadhead hit the underside of the spine. That bull was huge and his skin was incredibly thick. The skin on the back of his neck was a solid inch thick and I had a hell of a time slicing through it while I was caping him.
What arrow, broadhead, weight combined and bow poundage Mike?
good gawd what a bull !!
Agreed that there is no void between lungs and spine but in deer and Elk there is quite a bit of space between the top of the spine and the top of the back. In Elk it is actually 4"s give or take in spots. I do not have a pic. but killed my best buck ever with a recurve at 3yds. with the quartering frontal shot. He went 15 yards and tipped over. Shawn
bull was bugled in hit with a 470 grain arrow 72lbs slick trick it was a chip shot bull turned and fell over didn't make it 4 yards !!
stealthykitty,
Thanks!
Easton FMJ 400, 28", 100 grain Slick Trick Magnum, not sure of the total arrow weight, somebody can probably calculate it if they know the weight of all the components.
Ancient 1998 Mathews MQ1 at 74lbs.
Great bull cityhunter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb8zCai1c9A
Here is a quartering to/frontal shot I took last season. It was 18 yards and I hit right where I thought was the sweet spot. I got limited penetration and bull shook the arrow out. I stopped him and got another shot off but I never found this bull. Would have been my best bull, it was a rough stretch over the next few days. The video lost quality when I uploaded it but I slow motioned the hit and you can see the arrow shine when bull spins to run. It seems to me I hit hime mid level about 3 inches into the dark hair? Wrong placement? Just got unlucky on a big bone? I see how devastating this shot can be by some pics but now I'm real hesitant to take it again if it presents itself this season.
I think you hit to the right of where you needed to on both shots. Good luck this year, have a fun hunt.
