Your back calling for your friend....a good bull comes in (300ish)....you watch your buddy draw back and take a 30 yard broadside shot (he is a good shot and the his shot sounds good, but you could not see the arrow hit the bull).......the bull runs 50 yards quartering to you and and is still standing.....leaving you with a 50 yard follow up shot.
1. do you put another arrow in the bull to avoid letting a wounded bull get away?
2. Do you hold back and see what happens?
If you took the shot, but did not have a tag for the bull, but then found out that your buddy hit a branch and your arrow is the only one in the dead bull......what would you do?
1. leave it
2. sneak it out in order to salvage the meat
3. call fish and game and explain yourself (in which case you will lose the meat and get a ticket regardless of your excuse.....maybe rightfully so)
4. have your buddy tag it if he will (which is illegal in the state of MT)
5. ?????????
This is a hypothetical for me.....but have heard of this happening.
DJ
DJ
CO Oak.
Not criticizing just confirming. Your helping a buddy track a gut shot elk (your obviously not side by side if you know how to track) and you find it hobbling away with intestines hanging out but still able to move fairly well....it's heading into thick timber and pauses to give you a shot.....You wouldn't give it a mercy arrow? Again....not criticizing....but that's too cold hearted for me.
Straight shooter
I hear you there, but say the bull turned the other way, and your 99% sure he is hit (you heard the shot hit and have confidence in your friends abilities)....you just can't see blood ( this would not normally be a situation you have time to analyze....the first and second shot could be just a few seconds apart...he might not even be bleeding yet)
I know the laws. ....but in some situation you have to choose between laws and ethics.
I personally will do anything I can to end the suffering of a wounded animal......I'll take the ticket if I have to.....laying out in the sage on a cold night slowly bleeding out with an arrow in your guts.....Just wishing you could get a drink before your digestive system poisons your blood and kills you or you finally lose enough blood to expire is no way to go if it can be avoided.
I know I'm sounding like i'm justifying......I'm not....I was almost in this situation....but both arrows hit the animal.....it just made me think.....what if?
If I see blood and it doesn't look like a superficial wound I'm shooting no matter what. Tag or no tag. I almost hate to admit it but... anything and I mean anything to avoid an unrecovered animal. I'd want my partner to do the same if I was the first shooter.
I'd be upset about being put in that position but if a bull came to me and stood there with an arrow in his guts and I about knew he was going to run off and die in parts unknown I couldn't handle it. I hate wasted game. Taking a life for nothing doesn't sit well with me. I respect your decisions as well.
your clearly not an elk hunter......We've killed five bulls this year and have a couple stubborn buddies passing on "small bulls" every other day....(diy public by the way).....It's no exaggeration to say that we've had opportunities at over 20 bulls. I'd also like to know how you plan on saving the meat on a 900+ pound animal when its 85 degrees F and your three miles in.......I can tell you right now that three big guys in damn good shape can't get that animal's meat and head out in one trip....three can get the meat...boned out a big bull will probably have over 225 lbs of meat meaning that without the head each guy will have a pack weighing around100 lbs.......and where we hunt if you don't get the meat out in one trip....you don't get it....And before you call bs on meat weight we pick them clean....even when we're a little farther in than we should be...brisket...flanks..neck...heart....it all comes out.....the meat is why we hunt......the head and cape probably weigh 60-70lbs alone (thats about a dozen wild turkeys:)
you might be right when it comes to white tailed deer.....or birds.
Out of 20 opportunities only two have been for the caller.........good luck.
Tru
Not in MT
gil
glad to hear that
And it's discussed and made clear in camp before hand.
The bull ran by me and stopped after our guide bugled and I let him have it. We both had tags. We split the meat and he gave me the rack & cape. He said he believed my arrow killed him. Plus he is a more seasoned elk hunter and already has a few bulls on the wall.
One thing is certain, it is very important to have this discussion with your hunting partner BEFORE the hunt, so everyone is on the same page.
I believe once an animal is hit, everyone should do whatever they can (within the law) to ensure a quick humane kill.
In fact I'd be pissed if my buddy had an opportunity to finish my elk off and let him walk away.
Now what would you do if you found out that your buddy missed the bull.....and you don't have a tag?
In MT it is actually illegal for your friend to tag that animal......it is illegal to shoot animals on other peoples tags. So at this point laws would already be broke......how do you handle it?
Just to be clear.....I can tell you right now that fish and game around here won't even hear your story.....they don't care about anything but writing tickets.
Now what would you do if you found out that your buddy missed the bull.....and you don't have a tag? ( I know that some wouldn't shoot unless you were 100% sure.....but just say you were 100% sure and you were wrong.....for conversations sake)
In MT it is actually illegal for your friend to tag that animal......it is illegal to shoot animals on other peoples tags. So at this point laws would already be broke......how do you handle it?
This is what I mean by choosing between your ethics and the law.....they don't always go hand in hand.
To me, the worst thing that can happen here is a spoiled bull.....other's may think it is worse to break the law than to waste an animal.....but ultimately that would be the choice that you would have to make.
1. Break the law
2. Waste the bull
In answer to your second set of questions, refer to the answer above.
That would also prevent me from being in a situation where I had to decide or not whether to turn myself in.
Not criticizing just confirming. Your helping a buddy track a gut shot elk (your obviously not side by side if you know how to track) and you find it hobbling away with intestines hanging out but still able to move fairly well....it's heading into thick timber and pauses to give you a shot.....You wouldn't give it a mercy arrow? Again....not criticizing....but that's too cold hearted for me."
Correct. If I don't have a tag and don't intend to tag it, I'm not shooting. I appreciate my hunting privileges too much to risk them following up someone else's poor shot. YMMV
I'm not saying someone should or shouldn't.....just curious what people would do when laws and ethics clash.
Poaching is poaching
waste not want not
I've seen wounded animals get away.....and if all efforts were made to recover the animal and there was not a stupid decision that resulted in the bad shot......I'll be able to get some sleep within a couple of days.
If the animal is out there suffering because I chose to follow the letter of the law instead of doing what I (and I do just me I....not everyone...nor do I think everyone should feel the way I do) could to end the suffering......I won't be sleeping well for a long, long, time.
I also know that it is illegal for me shoot a deer that has been struck by a vehicle........but there isn't a chance in hell that I'm going to let a deer suffer in the ditch for a couple hours until a game warden can come do the same thing I am perfectly capable of.....I see no difference.
suffering is suffering.......it's not something I can let go if it can be avoided.....I'd rather take my chances with the law than karma.
Again....I understand why some people wouldn't shoot.....and I am not judging in any way.....it is a risk......I don't think that it is immoral or unethical to shoot.....or if you believe strongly in the letter of the law....I don't think it is immoral or unethical not to shoot.
Would you let a deer struck by car that is suffering in the ditch suffer? (assuming that you carry a gun and could quickly end the pain) or would you shoot it?
That would be illegial in Colorado to shoot something with a gun during an archery season. No one wants a wounded animal. But finishing it off with a gun would not be legal where I'm from unless it was a rifle season
Not what we said. Let's say you saw an arrow sticking out of the guts. The what?
A pistol/gun? No! It's bow season.
Arch95... you can call elk without a tag. A lot of non-res guides don't have licenses. In areas with limited permits almost nobody has the tag but can assist the hunt.
X2 MT Country boy. I'll take my personal ethics over the black and white words every time. Law makers aren't God.
Let me ask some of you in another way: If the bull walked up and you saw the hit, knew he was going to die based on what you saw but it wasn't a perfect placement, & he hadn't yet fallen over... what do you do? Put an insurance arrow in him or risk not recovering the animal?
Oh I'd let him suffer and maybe go to waste because the nice policeman said I should? Screw that $h1t! Bulls can be hard enough to find with good hits let alone marginal ones.
Those of you who've never tracked a wounded elk can just save the comments for a deer thread or something. Elk run off to places no man has ever set foot. Deer never set foot on places like that.
I still think of a bull that I never found back in the early 90s. Stood next to my brother and he didn't take a cake shot. Another hunter found it a week later rotted and wasted. Never again!
What's UNethical about it if the law prevents you from doing anything about it?
Point is, its not anyone's place to think their ethics are above the law.
1. DON'T SHOOT . . . . YOU DON'T HAVE A TAG!
"This is a hypothetical for me.....but have heard of this happening." Just because others do it or may do it, doesn't make it right.
If you did have a tag and the bull presented a shot, I would take it. My "buddies" would understand and would probably want me to take the shot.
DJ
And your buddy and you are hopefully, grown-up enough to live with his shot/ his action.
Almost sounds like someone is justifying poaching to me.
If I were in the situation and felt I had to shoot,I wouldn't be talking about it.It has the makings of a real life nightmare if things go wrong.
2nd - In Colorado Shooting an animal without a tag is also against the law
3rd Why does the second guy have a bow and not a tag?
Also bear in mind that those laws were in and of themselves unethical and morally wrong. What's unethical or morally wrong about a game law that says you can't shoot a game animal if you have no license or tag to do so?
"1st - In Colorado Having a big-game weapon [bow] in the woods without a tag is against the law"
x2.....???? you cant' shoot squirrels, or coyotes? wtf.....Colorado is starting to look a lot like California....too bad it's not close enough to the ocean drown......I highly doubt that hawkeye know what he is talking about.....how can it be illegal to walk around with a bow, or a gun in the woods.....
Elkman.
five posts and I seem pretty invested? good enough....
Wihille
I don't poach.....nor do I feel the need to justify anything to bunch of armchair quarterbacks.....It was a question.....a situation that without a doubt anyone could find themselves in......read the post....I told you what happened.....it was not illegal.....like I said...it made me think how things could have been different than they were and made me wonder how I would handle the situation given only a few seconds to think about it.
Nobody wants to touch on the deer suffering in the ditch?
none of you have ever rolled through a stop sign or broke the speed limit either.....I'm sure.
If the law coincides perfectly with your ethics.....you nothing more than a puppet....there is nothing wrong with questioning laws....in some cases there is nothing wrong with breaking them.....they are just rules set by men, that in many cases, don't have the ethics or morals that many of you have.
Habitat
well said
Archery95
That's a sad statement
TBM
300" piss head bull:)...... now that's fn funny........I guarantee you'd piss your pants if you ever saw one.....just about everything you type is 100% bull$hlt.....but that's awesome. He flung the arrow because he thought the caller would get a shot......WTF is wrong with you? HE'S THE CALLER......NOT THE SHOOTER....like I said before....you clearly don't know anything about elk hunting......how do you show up on every single thread on this site......get off your computer and GO HUNTING so you might have a clue what your talking about.
I wonder how many here would pass a 310" bull on the first day of the season........I've seen the pictures.....there are some big bulls being posted.....a lot more rag horns and spikes though.
The Old Sarge
Nothing is wrong with it for many people....I get why they are there.....everybody would be shooting "wounded animals" if it was legal to do.
I law that states that I have to watch an animal suffer that I know is going to die is "morally wrong" based on MY morals. I believe that it is wrong to let an animal suffer if you don't have to......I don't think that everyone should feel this way.....we all have our own morals, I doubt that any two moral codes are identical. That being said.....I will always choose my own morals over the law.....in all cases. It is not wrong to shoot an animal that is suffering....it is just illegal.....illegal doesn't mean wrong.....most people break several laws every week.
It makes no difference to me......yes my morals are above the law.....I hope everyone's are......like I said....the laws are rules made by men that are no better than you or me..
If you consider killing a suffering animal to end it's suffering and avoid wasting it's body "poaching" than me and you just have a different opinion of "poaching".......I know people that have found their elk or deer to late to save the meat......to me there is no pride in the kill and no room for an animal like that on my wall.....sure it wasn't poached....but it was wasted...which is far worse imo........yet many, if not most would still mount their "trophy" on the wall.......this is not illegal....but it is immoral....."let the birds find it for you"
nothing against you.....I just don't put as much stock in the law as you do.....I don't need any help distinguishing between right and wrong....I don't need laws, I don't need preachers, I don't need anyone to tell me that the reason I can't sleep at night is okay because it is legal......I don't like to do things that make it difficult to sleep.......letting a wounded animal walk would make it difficult to sleep.
I know......that's why I asked follow up questions.....it's a conversation.....they do evolve....or they end......it's just a conversation.
It evolved into whether or not someone should follow the letter of the law......or follow their own moral code.....I have no issue with that.....
I see your point.......but according to most here.....illegal is illegal and poaching is poaching.......most here...not all....made it very clear that it rally doesn't matter if the bull was hit or not...either way....the shot is illegal......
that is why I brought up the actually wounded animal scenario.....as far as I call tell.....many here would let the animal die a slow painful death because they are scared of Johnny Law........good for them......that's just not how I work
Take your bow with a quiver loaded full of broadheads and hike around the Colorado mtns without a big game license and come across a DOW officer.
You will quickly become an expert in the law. Right after you pay your fine for hunting without a license.
And back on the subject, if you dont have BH in your quiver, why would you shoot an elk with a small game head?
Cant have it both ways
As for the original poster. You sir, are a poacher if you do that. Also, people like you, are the exact reason why our prison systems are full. They have no respect for the law and steal, do drugs etc etc... its a shame you have those same values or lack there of. Integrity, doing the right thing even when no-one is looking, is a value that can be learned if one is willing to learn it.
I am starting to think this isn't a hypothetical situation and you are trying to justify it. If that's the case, good luck explaining to the judge how you're above the law. They love that.
I don't disagree with that at all......It was made pretty clear that nobody would shoot unless they know it was hit......that is when I sort of steered the conversation to.....what do you do if you KNOW he is hit, but you don't have a tag?
It's just for fun.
Like I said I don't need to defend myself.
I had a tag.....it's full. If I was trying to defend something I did that was illegal....I certainly wouldn't do it on a forum where I don't hide my name.
The thread did evolve into law vs morals......it's more fun to me.
I told you what happened in my SECOND post.......but after the situation took place.....LIKE I SAID BEFORE...it made me wonder what would have happened if the first shooter missed.....
Read the first post....."maybe rightfully so"
Second post....."I know I sound like I'm justifying....I'm not........it just made me think what if"
So every situation talked about on Bowsite has to be real?
No hypotheticals?
Trublu
It was just a question.....The original post did not indicate that the animal was hit for sure.....it indicated that there is a 99% chance that he is hit.....
That was all I was asking for crying out loud.
Would you shoot at an animal that you are 99% sure is wounded?
.....most here would not take the shot unless they were sure it was hit or they had a tag for it and wanted to animal.
I have no issue with that
The conversation changed when Co Oak stated clearly stated that he would let an animal that he KNEW was wounded walk away......again....I'm not judging....
I know why the laws were written the way they are......there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law......
It's still poaching if you shoot a deer hit by car that's suffering in the ditch.....poaching is poaching....so there is no difference....IT IS STILL ILLEGAL
And most of our game laws have been questioned and nothing has been found lacking. Deal with them as legitimate laws.
"in some cases there is nothing wrong with breaking them....."
In which case you will have no problem dealing with the consequences, right?
"they are just rules set by men,..."
Mostly for very good reason and intended to apply to us all. (Unless of course one is a snivling liberal that supprts but does not want to participate in the Affordable Care Act.)
"... that in many cases, don't have the ethics or morals that many of you have."
True, maybe, but that doesn't apply to the laws we're talking about in this discussion.
"Nobody wants to touch on the deer suffering in the ditch?"
Maybe you missed it, but I responded. I asked what was UNethical about leaving it if a legitimate law prevented me from doing anything about it.
Nothing is wrong with leaving it......if you feel right about it.
That is sort of my point......what do you do when what you feel is the right thing to do is illegal.
I started another thread to discuss this in a little more depth.
Besides, I don't really hold animals on the same level that I hold humans. They are animals.
sounded worse than I meant it. Those laws seem so ridiculous me...I just assumed they couldn't be true.....but you are correct when it comes to Iowa's hunting laws.....I don't know anything about them......and am thankful that I'll never need to.
If I did have a tag and the bull stopped at 50yds, I'd take the shot. If my buddy actually made his shot and my followup was just that - a followup that maybe shortened the tracking job - that's his bull. If he missed and I nailed him, that's mine.
I definitely don't blame you for hunting alone if that has been your type of group hunting experience.
With my friends, we decide who's "turn" it is to shoot. Then all efforts are made to get that guy the animal. This year my best friend had an elk tag. I could technically carry a bow as I had a valid deer tag. My bow stayed at home, because it would be a distraction in trying to get him an elk. Plus I am not put into that ethical dilemma. It doesn't even become a potential problem.
Don't hang out in the shady end of town late at night if you don't want to have to deal with hookers. Sounds to me like most guys here do everything in their power not to be put into the ethical conundrums by going through the scenarios beforehand and eliminating the possibilities.
