Bowsite.com

It's on facebook so you'll probably have to log in there to see it.

A frontal shot and the elk walked exactly ZERO steps and dropped dead.

Simply AMAZING !!!

Cheers, Pete

Pretty cool

That boy wasn't shooting much weight and the arrow wasn't traveling as great speeds. Proof they don't have too. It just kind of makes one realize that all these threads about is my arrow heavy enough, or is my bow generating enough energy is misplaced. Get'em sharp, get 'em tuned, put them where they beloing and the rest is just fire side talk. And don't let someone else tell you where and at what angle to shoot your animals.

God Bless

Mark

JDM, i recall the effectiveness of frontal shots being talked about 25-30 years ago. there was even an occasional article in a hunting magazine. the well-known bowhunters back then didn't achieve the notoriety and false credits many have today.

thanks for sharing c3.

My take on this video is the arrow hit just above the heart, cutting the ascending aorta. When that happens, the brain, which is the bodies least tough organ, can not go without blood or oxygen for more than a few seconds. When it does, what happened in that video is most likely.

I have taken a lot of animals with frontal shots, but I personally have never had that happen to me. What has happened is that I have recovered every single animal and I have had a great blood trial to follow. Some were short, some were long, but all very easy to follow.

That is one of the greatest videos I have ever seen and congrats to the young boy! And like they said, thanks Pete for posting it. Only the video master could find something so great!

Have a great bow hunt. BB

+1 on BB's take on hitting the ascending aorta. I shot a big herd bull broadside at very close range once, and he did essentially the same thing. Even straightened up slightly before topplng over right there. That shot took out the descending aorta too.

Pretty poor example of the frontal shot IMO, kid got damn lucky it looks like to me.

Then again, maybe its just the camera angle, but that arrow looks like it comes in from the far right of the bull.

Amazing proof of arrow lethality none the less.

I was also impressed by how much the elk dropped at the shot.....almost like a whitetail (although it didn't actually drop until impact).

I'm with the Aorta on this one.

Don't take my word, or anybody else for it. The next time you have an elk, moose, deer, etc... standing at 15 yards unsuspecting, try it yourself. Do your part and your packing. Don't and your not. No difference in this philosophy regardless of shot angle. God Bless

As pointed out above, a hit in the jugular vein would have resulted in a dead elk, but you would have never witnessed, in the video what you saw, as the bull would have been able to flee, out of camera range.

In 1996, while hunting elk in Wyoming, I splashed a bull into me at one of my favorite wallows. I took a frontal shot, but hit a couple inches off my aiming point, and hit the bull in the jugular. He left a well defined trail, that I could follow as fast as I could walk. He went straight up hill and I found him roughly 400 yards from where he was hit. In about 1998, while hunting elk in Colorado I did basically the same thing and found the bull 200 plus yards from where I hit him.

When you put a broad head through the heart of an elk, unless its right at the top of the heart and happens to cut the bundle of arteries leaving the heart, you will not see that bull go down on the spot, like this bull went down. Most heart shot elk, with that exception, will run hard for 60 to 100 yards before piling up. Many heart shot elk do an arc or circle death run! There are a few exceptions to that, but rarely will a heart shot critter go down with in sight, unless its a critter in open country.

But like I mentioned above, when you take the new blood away from the brain, its just a matter of seconds, before the animal loses its ability to function. That elk, lost that almost instantaneously.

For that same reason, its far better to shoot a broadside critter straight up the front leg, then it is behind the leg, like most bowhunter do. The bundle of arteries and the heart lay right there on most animals and thus you will have far better and much shorter blood trails.

And like said before, although a jugular vein hit will bleed profusely, it will bleed nothing like is witnessed in that video.

I have maintained for many years, that the frontal shot, if taken under the proper conditions, and within close range, just happens to be bowhuntings deadliest and high percentage shots.

And thanks once again Pete for posting this great, thought provoking video.

Have a great bow hunt. BB

DJ

DJ

Given the result, I am not sure how you can state "It was definitely a shot he shouldn't be taking for where he actually hit.".

Let me get this straight, that elk took zero steps...and you are saying that where he actually hit wasn't an acceptable point of impact? Please explain.

BTW, do you bowhunt as well as gun hunt (given your handle, I am just curious)?

Hit the spot you are aiming and you will be fine. Miss it by 6 inches and you are probably in trouble, regardless of the shot angle.

Has anyone ever "spined" a deer??? You feel like hell because you know you missed your spot. So, because it dropped and died right there I shouldn't consider my tail darn lucky?

To add to the discussion, I was channel surfing while reading this and watched McMillan river adventures shoot a moose with a frontal at close range. The shot looked a bit low and to the left of the breast bone , it did travel but they did recover it.

I know, two different animals , but there was just a thread on that a couple days ago also.

No comments on the advantage to his quiet bow? Give the kid credit for not using a fast and light setup that doesnt have a loud slap.

Yeah, doesn't get much more controversial than that. Rage, frontal shot, lighted nock and a kid that " hasn't put his time in"!

OR

'The Four Bowhunting Horsemen of The Apocalypse' ;-)

I concur with Buglemaster; every shot and every situation is different.

***How many deer or elk have you shot and double lunged that went 1/2 mile or more? Contrary to what you stated, most double-lunged passthhroughs, if using a good, sharp broadhead of any type, will usually result in the animal going down for the count in under 150 yards 90%+ of the time.

There is always a healthy debate by people with differing experiences as to whether a frontal shot is effective or not. Perhaps you are debating whether this shot can be considered as a frontal shot...in that case, I would agree with you...there is certainly some degree of quartering to in this shot.

That doesn't diminish the fact that it worked. Nor does it rule out the fact that young man might have been aiming there.....and we certainly can't dispute the shot's effectiveness.

In the video, the boy was actually to the left of straight on. When that happens, on needs to keep your shot to the side you are on, or to left, and that's exactly what he did. One needs also realize the bone joint between the leg and where it hooks onto the scapula, protrudes forward and so you need to be to it right when you are left of center and to its left when you are right of center.

Guys who say frontal kill shots are just lucky, are guys who don't understand the anatomy of the critters they hunt. I believe it to be the most deadly of all bowhunting shots, when you hit properly. Broadside shots are very deadly shots too, but since the vital area is much larger on a broadside shot, hunters tend to shoot at much greater distances and most hunters really don't understand where to shoot on broadside shots, thus increasing their chances of wounding and or losing an animal.

If one limits himself to close distances, on both of these shots, the results will be good. But if either shot is taken from longer distances, the chance of error increases dramatically.

I would think on a good sized whitetail, from straight on, your circle for certain kill would be around 3 inches. But taking frontals from a tree stand usually changes things big time, as the angle needed, for the arrow flight path, is most likely wrong.

Have a great bow hunt. BB

DL your buddys friend likely hit between the rib cage and scapula.

Beendare, had the same observation I did; you can't hear the bow, and neither did the bull. He simply reacted to the slap of the arrow. Refreshing to see.

I would really like to know the young mans set up.

Lol!

Once again folks get hung up on a spot on the OUTSIDE of the animal. Frontal, quartering on, quartering away even. You have to adjust your aiming point as to angle of the animal, just like Bigdan's pic above.

If it's quartering much and you aim for the center of the chest, yeah... you're gonna have a long and likely disappointing day. Even though you hit exactly where you were aiming, you were several inches off of where you SHOULD have hit. "I hit him perfect, buried to the nock, never recovered it" No. You didn't hit him perfectly. Hung up on aiming at a spot on the outside.

The aiming point is INSIDE the animal. You have to visualize that. You hit that point from ANY angle and they go down fast. The only real factor IMO is knowing where the big bones are and taking an angle that avoids them. Amazing how many folks really don't know.

WRT it not going anywhere, I've taken a few animals "frontal" and one factor is you normally have an entire arrow shaft and broadhead lengthways inside, Most of those don't "run", a slow stiff legged walk happens a good deal. Hard to run with one of those in you.

And more vitals were impacted than a single artery as has been suggested. That arrow penetrated more than 20 inches from all appearances. Easily deep enough to strike the heart, arteries above the heart or a lung...or a combination of these.

Also...the kid was within 3 feet of the camera and the elk was between 10 and 15 yards based on what I could see...but I don't know anything...only owned a production company back in the day and hold a bachelor's in broadcasting. Total newbie...

From: Bigdan Date: 10-Mar-14 archery95 I have not killed 50 P&Y bulls only 20. I have killed 55 elk with my bow. And out of my 16 bulls killed with my frontal shot 11 of them made P&Y. The kids arrow entered the lower part of my target.

***Geez, archery95, after all these years I've hunted I would have never guessed that regarding your opening statement, LOL! I also have to laugh at your "better hunter" statement. You may also want to be a little more careful on things that you know not of which you speak, seeing as how BigDan had to come on and straighten out your stats that you screwed up pretty bad trying to make a point that wasn't needed in the first place! The kid's arrow definitely did not go straight on like we're talking about and that Dan uses quite successfully. It also certainly appeared to hit about where Dan stated and from what I could see when I stopped the film a couple times it appeared the arrow may have deflected to the left on deeper into the bull after hitting a major blood vessel near the surface, thus the heavy external bleedout. It would certainly be nice if some folks did not have selective reading to try and argue a point that wasn't even mentioned regarding this particular video in what was definitely not a straight on frontal shot! Also, viewed in slow motion the arc of the arrow and the way the camera panned well to the left to pick up the kid indicated to me that it wasn't what I would call a real close shot.

BigDan---Just curious, but with your obvious skill and numbers of elk shot, what would you consider the longest distance you would attempt, or maybe even better, what is the longest frontal shot you've taken and what broadhead do you use? Thanks and those are impressive stats to be proud of!

And more vitals were impacted than a single artery as has been suggested. That arrow penetrated more than 20 inches from all appearances. Easily deep enough to strike the heart, arteries above the heart or a lung...or a combination of these.

Also...the kid was within 3 feet of the camera and the elk was between 10 and 15 yards based on what I could see...but I don't know anything...only owned a production company back in the day and hold a bachelor's in broadcasting. Total newbie...

The title of the thread uses the words "frontal shot". If you are going to be such a stickler for verbage, I would submit that he shot at the FRONT of the elk.

"Blood Sloosh" - I gotta remember that one....

Resulted in very good ARTERIAL blood trail that got progressively leaner...for 400 yards.

That bull was still alive when I got to him after 1 1/2 hours. Too weak to stand. Required a second arrow.

Anybody that thinks an elk is going to just fall over and die in seconds with a severed carotid is fooling himself. The bull in the video died from trauma to the great vessels above the heart. Read BBs posts and learn something, he is spot on.

I can also tell you the camera was downhill from the shot and what is perceived as arc isn't as much as folks think but is a downward trajectory.

Any other questions?

Damn fine shot kid!

...and at it's worst???

The shot was 23yds according to the shooter...and he was using a 70lb bow with a G5 montec BH.

I can also tell you the camera was downhill from the shot and what is perceived as arc isn't as much as folks think but is a downward trajectory.

Any other questions?

Damn fine shot kid!

I agree with BB that some guys just don't know the anatomy, and if you're not comfortable with the shot, you should wait for an angle that you feel comfortable making.

DJ

The reason arteries kill faster is because they are under high pressure (directly from the heart) while veins are low pressure (draining back to the heart), and in the case of the carotid you are robbing the brain of oxygen rich blood immediately.

Hopefully they post their results................

I've had this shot in the back of mind since I was enlightened by BB and Bigdan several years ago. I've only used the shot twice. Both close range, both with spectacular results.

2012 elk

The frontal shot has been a very controversial topic, from the time I first started to posting on the Bowsite. In those days modern wisdom was totally against frontal shots of any kind, from any distance. And when I posted my feelings I got tarred and feathered many times.

I stated bowhunting in 1959 in Southwest Wyoming. In those days there was no internet, and our local library did not have one single book on bowhunting. I was the only person in the area where I grew up, that bow hunted, thus I had no one to ask the multitude of questions I had. Most of those got answered by the school of hard knocks! And there were plenty of those.

So being all of this was new, I learned quickly, that a big part of being successful in bowhunting was getting close the critter you intended to shoot. In those days, at least where I lived, there were no bowhunter education classes around and so I just learned by the mistakes and the success I had, as what was the best way to do things.

Since I had no one coaching me, I pretty much just tried to make the best decisions I could. And since there was no one around to tell me that taking a frontal shot was very risky and had a very low chance of success, I took the shot and watched many of the animals die within sight. I also noticed that on those shots, most of the time the blood trials were far superior to follow and most of them were shorter than my broadside hits. So as time past, the frontal shots became one of my very favorite shots, for what I thought were good reasons. I always found every single animal I hit that way, and most of the times in a shorter distance and like I said the blood trials were far easier to follow.

So I continue do to discover lots of stuff about bowhunting and then came along the internet and many other good sources of information about bowhunting and I immediately began to understand that many people that it was just terrible that I would even consider taking a frontal shot, or for that matter a close straight away shot at a critter. It seemed the only good shot was the broadside shot, or the quartering away shot.

And thus my many postings trying to teach people about the validity of the frontal shot. It just stood to reason with me, that of all the animals I had taken with a frontal (no no) shot, I found. But through the years I had lost a number of, what I thought were good hits that were broadside. It just didn't make any sense to me that all my frontal shots were lucky, and all those broadside shots were unlucky. There had to be a reason and so I have, through the years tried hard to educate bowhunters on the validity of the frontal shot. Of all the emails and PM I have received through the years I visited the Bowsite, I don't think I have had as many thank you's as I received from those guys who told me stories about taking, close in fontal shots, and the fast kills they got from them and thanking me for teaching them about it. I have yet to receive emails or PM saying I caused them to wound a critter.

If this video does not open your eyes, and make you search your mind, for why this bull died in the manner he did, then by all means, wait for the broadside shot. But if one can see its potential, then be very careful in the way you carry it out. Shoot as heavy as bow as you can, with as heavy as arrow or broad head as you can, and take the shot from only close range. And know where to hit! It is a smaller target than is given with a broadside shot, but it will always be in my mind the most deadly shot in bowhunting. Keep it close, learn where to aim and when you get your chance to fill your tag on a frontal shot, just know that if you do your job, your tag will be punched.

Its unlikely most of us will every witness what this video showed, but many of us will find our game within 50 yards and even if it goes beyond 200 yards, I don't worry like I do on a broadside hit, as the blood trails on frontal hits have always taken me to a dead animal.

But this is not a 50-60 yard shot, it should be done at very close range and if you do that and can hit where you know you have to be, your results will be like I and Big Dan have had. I really wished I could say the same thing about broadside shots, but I can't.

In 2008, on the same day, at the same waterhole, my son and I both filled our antelope tags with frontal shots. The real bad thing about them, was how hard it was to clean all the blood of the bucks for photos. We watched both go down from the blind.

This photo was taken from the window of my blind. The shot was about 16 yards and he might have made it that much farther. Those are a couple of the does that were with him that are tying to figure out what had happened.

Have a great bow hunt. BB

Do your thing. But, know there is no other shot angle that will give you these type results every time, assuming you do your part, but these type shots. Good luck and God Bless

What a cool video. I have shown it to a half dozen people at work.

I've had a bunch of elk trot straight in, pause for a few seconds, and then whirl away...

I wont let that sub 25 yard opportunity slip away again.

Well..... I had to find out what all the fuss was. Anything that will take BB away from his dogs, photography and blackmailing folks in compromising positions must be worth a look see.

I have only taken one "no-no" shot but it was deadly. It was 17 yards from a blind at an antelope in Wyoming. The buck ran 43 yards before piling up. Just before I drew back BB whispered to me "right here" and pointed at his chest. His son Cody got it on video.

For me, I think I am personally programmed to wait for the broadside shot. Not so much because I think it is the best shot but because this is what I was brought up to beleive. Now, I would not hesitate to take a head-on shot if the range was about 22 yards or less and animal was standing still. I just hope I can remember to take the shot and not wait for a broadside shot. Kind of like teaching an old dog a new trick I suppose?

Great film footage of this young hunter and his success. Nice to see young people still getting it done and getting excited about the hunt. When I was younger and had hair, that is the way I remember looking.

Several years ago Knothead joined myself and my son Cody on a Wyoming antelope hunt. His first morning hunting, he killed a nice buck with a frontal shot. We watched it go down as my son videoed the event. It would be nice if some one who knows videos could repost that video on this thread, as it shows a different reaction but in the end the same result as the boys video above.

But that is really not why I am making this post. The reason for this post is to bring a smile to your face.

Just over a month ago, while I was at a Lady Antebellum concert, I received a text from Knothead. In the text John asks me ask if I was going to be competing at the DECA state competition and if I was to come by his room and pick up a permission slip.

Well we were waiting for the concert to begin, and it was far too noisy to talk to my wife, so I decided to answer John's text. I knew he had sent it to my by mistake, as he is a teacher and so I thought he had just clicked on a wrong name in his contact list.

Here's what I wrote him. "Sorry John, I only compete against guys that can stay awake! Then I attached a very unflattering photo of him, sound asleep in an antelope blind the morning after he had taken his antelope. I took the photo purposely to be very unflattering and boy did I hit the nail on the head. His mouth was open, and he looked like I had fed him very well!

In about a minute, I started to get texts from some of his students. It was then I realized, not only had he clicked on my name, but on the names of all his class and that unflattering photo went out to all his students.

Just about that time I receive this text from John. "I don't think I like you as much anymore. What ever happened to the day when old guys didn't know how to send photos via phone?"

Then I got this one. Folks, please ignore texts. I am not sure what is going on!

As I sat there and laughed all night, my wife kept asking me what was so funny! I had no idea that was a group text, but nonetheless, I got a great laugh out of it.

John is a great guy and we had a great time hunting antelope. I hope someone can post his video on this thread. Its another clip that clearly shows how fatal a well executed frontal shot really is.

Have a laugh on John and have a great bow hunt too, BB

Frontal shots are just broadside shots at ninety degrees.... even more light!

)

The original video in this thread is still the most deadly shot I've ever watched. The arrow is definitely in the opening above the brisket in the center 4". The arrow and camera are only a couple feet apart. It's an amazingly deadly shot 100% of the time if you do your part.

I've missed out on a couple dozen opportunities at elk like this over the last 33 years due to believing it was a no-no shot. In every single case there was no opportunity if I'd waited to get them broadside. When you call them in, facing you up close like this, they always stop, spook and whirl out of there.

If you're not comfortable hitting a 4" circle at 10 - 20 yards, by all means pass it up, but as for me an my house we'll be bringing home the bacon if that opportunity ever presents its self again :)

Cheers, Pete

Some people are hung up on what to call the shot, frontal or quartering. In my mind, he shot the front of the elk therefore it was a frontal shot. Nobody ever said it was directly straight on or that it has to be directly straight on to be called a frontal shot.

Also, as BigDan has pointed out more than once, the straight on frontal shot is not the only frontal shot. There's nothing wrong with a quartering frontal shot if you know where to shoot.

Some people think that the only hope for success on a frontal shot is to shoot the dead center grapefruit sized opening. Yet those same people have no problem shooting through the ribs on a broadside shot.

The thing is, if you can shoot through the ribs behind the shoulder you can also shoot through the ribs in front of the shoulder.

On a dead straight on shot you shoot for the opening, on a slight quartering shot (like BigDan's) you shoot through the ribs in front of the shoulder. Shooting through the ribs should not be that big of a deal.

BB---That WAS a funny story!

DJ

The Frontal shot has its place.

I grew up in the bush and also started bowhunting with no one to learn from, But I knew the animals and their anatomy. Close range the front on shot is extremely effective with the bow.

Iv done extensive "In the Field" testing over the years guiding, and found the front on shot to be extremely effective on big game, such and Buffalo.

The effective kill zone is bigger then most think, No rib to contact at all for most of the front on shots.

Iv killed 8 buffalo bulls with the front on shot, only had one got further then 100yards. Most died within 50m

The angle and position of the bull in Bigdan's pic looks sweet no doubt. Especially at about 15 yards. But a little to left left is shoulder and to the right is nothing but neck. One thing I always see when I look at pics of the perfect frontal shot is if he is that close in about a second here I'm going to have a double lung complete pass through. The perfect shot.

But.... where I was raised anything but a broadside shot was called a Hail Mary shot. The reason isn't because it's an impossible shot. It's because nobody is perfect, there are things beyond our control, and you can kill elk with marginal hits but they aren't deer & you have to find them too. Hail Marys are great in football... but they don't always go as planned.

Maybe the question isn't can it be done because we know that's true but instead could something go wrong? I know what you'll say, something can go wrong with every shot... so maybe we are talking about acceptable margin of error. It sure is small compared to the "old fashioned" kill shot.

Let's remember not everyone who reads these threads can stay as calm as Bigdan when in spitting distance of a bull elk.

It sure is a terrible feeling when you see an arrow launched from a 70+ pound bow stop at 2 inches of penetration.

Everyone knows their ability to make a given shot. I'm sure Randy Ulmer would make that shot all day long. And of course with a Rage all you have to do is come close. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. Hunting is very much made up of personal decisions. I'm all about to each his own. Just a few points worth making I guess that's all.

I think that video was posted here on the Bowsite if I recall. If anyone can find it, please post it. The buck runs hard for a pretty short distance, circles a time or two, and you can see from the blind, the spraying of blood, and then he falls over.

In time, everyone of us will end up making a bad shot, no matter how close the animals is, and not matter if its a frontal or a broadside hit. But from my experience, and what i have witnessed in the field, the frontal shot will kill more animals, with less loss, than will a broadside shot. But like I have stated many times, one needs to be close if he decides to take a frontal. And it would pay greatly if everyone learned the anatomy of the critters they hunt. I am surprised how little so many know about where things are, and what happens when you hit that certain something.

Have a great bow hunt. BB

Gets right back to the minimal margin for error.

I would think if you are that concerned with margin of error you would also not take any shot past 35. I mean think about the what ifs. The animal could move, a breeze could drift your arrow, the margin of error is just so great, right?

At close range is just a qualifier, like someone saying ill take a 60 yard shot if the animal is relaxed and unaware of my presence. It's no different than saying I take the perfect broadside shot but only at less than 80 yards anything over that is not advised. Many are acknowledging there is a margin of error to all shots and that to keep that margin small a frontal should only be taken at a close range. Also someone that is going to screw up a frontal because they piss down their leg with a bull screaming at 15, is also very capable of screwing up a 15 yard broadside shot.

I dont hike around waiting for a frontal shot, but I don't pass them up if I am presented with a close shot. I might shoot a 30 or 35 yard shot at a bull elk that is broadside, but I would not take that shot if he was facing me. But if he walked another twenty yards towards me, then I know where to shoot, and that I could fill my tag.

There are far more animals hit and lost on quartering away and broadside shots, than all other hits put together. There are several reasons for this. By far more shots are taken at broadside or quartering away animals and so just that, in itself, would equate to losses. But contributing to those statistics is the fact, that since the vital area is larger, people feel they can take longer shots. Many people brag about killing their bull at 85 yards. Sure that can happen, but most of the time, most hunters, shooting at those far distances, will end up making multiple hits. before they get a kill shot.

For some reason people shoot farther at larger targets, than they do at smaller targets. A frontal shot offers a smaller target, thus one needs to keep it close.

And I personally think, that on any animal, one should be within 40 yards, no matter the size of the vitals.

To me the number one criteria, to judge the effectiveness of a shot, should be how fast it kills the critter, followed closely by the amount of blood it leaves on the ground, so one can follow the blood trail, to the downed animal. From my 50 plus years of bowhunting, a close frontal shot, by far, wins that contest!!!

Have a great bow hunt. BB

"One thing I always see when I look at pics of the perfect frontal shot is if he is that close in about a second here I'm going to have a double lung complete pass through. The perfect shot."

It couldn't be more untrue. They virtually never continue on past giving a broadside shot. Like the original video, they come in, stop and when they sort out what you are, they bolt. In the time it takes to draw your bow they are 40 yards out hauling hind quarter.

As BB pointed out, with this close frontal shot you then get the quickest kill in bow hunting.

Cheers, Pete

Maybe MP's old school like me. For 25yrs, it was beat into my head that quartering away or broadside shots were the ONLY shot to take on an elk. Being an NBEF certified instructor back in the day only reinforced this belief. As mentioned in one of the above posts, when I saw Stan Potts take a frontal on an elk, I literally got sick to my stomach. Unethical and desperation shot instantly came to mind.

I'm learning that old dogs can learn new tricks. Bottom line is...I want to put my BH through the vitals without hitting bone. Through BB's unending patience in posting pics, and explaining in detail the frontal shot, I'm SLOWLY beginning to accept that the frontal shot, UNDER CERTAIN CONDIONS, can be a very deadly shot. Whether I'll ever take that shot, under those certain conditions, I can't say for sure. Not because I can't make the shot, but because long-held beliefs are hard to change. Actually, I've only been presented a frontal shot once in my long elk hunting career. Bull came head-on to 8 yds, so I held waiting for a BS shot, which he finally gave me.

There is one thing that bothers me. Whenever these threads come up, there are many that make statements like "I've never been elk hunting, but now I won't hesitate to take a frontal!". As someone mentioned earlier, be honest with yourself when the moment of truth arrives. If you can keep your composure at close range with a bull screaming in your face, and feel confident you can hit that small sweet spot, that's one thing. If you can't, then don't force a shot that has little room for error. That goes whether it's a 15yd frontal, or a 40yd broadside shot.

If you see the video BB's son, Cody, filmed of my antelope hunt. Turn the volume up because you will hear Bill in background giving me advice on where to aim. I actually missed my aiming spot and hit more to the right in the shoulder. I think this was due to a combination of the buck moving and me missing my spot. The angle was such that it went through lungs and arrow penetrated opposite side. You can see when it runs after shot.

I was watching an elk hunting video yesterday. The hunter has a bull come in head on. The hunter is at full draw and the bull stops close....real close, I'm guessing less than 15 yards in the wide open. My mind is screaming, "Shoot!", but the hunter holds off. As expected, the bull finally gets a nose full and bolts. He stops at about 25 or 30 yards, quartering away and the hunter makes a hurried shot, hits a limb and the bull escapes unscathed.

IMO the shot he ended up taking was way more risky than the close frontal he passed up. Nothing wrong with passing up a shot you're not comfortable with but I bet about 90% of bowhunters would have done the exact same as this guy did....the frontal was a no-no even though the animal was calm, motionless, and close. But as soon as he was presented with the "supposedly" ideal quartering away shot, even though the animal was spooked and on edge, he just had to hurry and let one fly.

Wyobull.. I'll echo this. I've killed my fair share of good whitetails back east, but elk hunting is a whole new ball game.

The last bull I shot (my 2nd) using a sliding single pin. Buddy, I'll tell you I was shaking like a dog sh*ttin peach seeds trying to get that pin in the right place to get a shot. Undoubtedly far more intense than what I've experienced deer hunting.

That was likely as effective of an archery shot on a large animal that I will ever see.

Another thing to mention is that I will take BB's advice on pretty much anything other than his idea of a "shortcut."

Here is Knothead's buck:

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Heavy, 2317 arrow and 125 grain Thunderhead. The arrow buried up to the fletching. As others have mentioned, it was an easy blood trail to follow. It looked like every 10 yards, someone dumped a bucket of blood. It went 90 yards and was my proudest moment.

A question to ponder. Yes there is a lot of muscle in the neck area. However, I have always butchered my own animals and have noted that even in tough meat like the neck. It is much easier to "rip" the meat with a knife along the grain. Do you think that that fact may allow a bit better penetration given a slightly off impact than would a bad shot going perpendicular through the neck?

I would appreciate thoughts on this question.

For the most part, the neck meat that you're carving out is no where near where you want the arrow. If you're in the bigger neck meat muscles, there's a good chance that your arrow is going to end up outside the ribs as it penetrates back.

On the video, it looks like the arrow hits the elk in more on the neck than the front of the chest, and has great penetration. Does the arrow just follow the grain of those muscles into the body cavity, or is it possible that it penetrated and followed the channel of the windpipe? Either way, it is a very effective shot.

Idy is spot on. IMO most bowhunters think the lungs are farther back in the chest then they really are. And back in the chest they get thinner and thinner in cross section. Yet I see folks actually aiming too far back to start with, many times thinking they double lunged it when it was a liver and a lung, or maybe even just a liver.

BB's "V" shot was a revelation to me from what I was taught in the magazines and such many years ago. You often hit much of the same goodies you do on the frontal and like a properly placed frontal.... they go down fast, many times in sight.