But here is the question. What are the tricks for taking the herd bull when he's got satellite bulls working the edge of his herd? Do you just work in downwind hope luck is on your side. Work in close and try to act like a bull taking his cow? Any experiences with this.
Thanks Dan
I've killed them both ways but have had better luck with Chuck's strategy, or calling one away from the cows just as they go to bed.
Either ambush or shadow the herd.
Be willing to pass up shots. You can't kill the herd bull of you kill satellites
I've had wayyy better luck sneaking in than trying to challenge them. Those herd bulls are constantly circling the herd and if you can get close its just a matter of time until he gives you a shot.
Could be my challenge bugle needs work...don't know. Probably more to do with 1) many lead cows just want out of there when things get hairy, 2) I mostly hunt pressured elk in OTC units- if I'm in that close and challenge, the bull usually wants to see the bull doing the challenging.
Seems to me the challenge worked better many years ago....now not so good...maybe still fine in limited units with a high bull to cow ratio.
There are some areas that a nice 5x6 is the herd bull and other areas that same 5x6 is a satellite bull
Also am slowly learning that water hole hunting works pretty darn well.
And when all else fails shadowing the herd works well also !!
In my experience, sneaking in has been the best bet. Challenge bugles do not tend to work well where I hunt. In fact, I have noticed that the herd bulls tend to take their cows and leave at the sound of a challenge bugle. Why fight and risk losing the cows when you can leave and keep them?
Also, keep in mind the herd bull you see is many times not the herd bull. I talked to Jaquomo about this once before and he called it the "little buddy" bull. It is a good description. The little buddy is the one you see kicking butts and running around keeping the herd in check. The herd bull probably lets the little buddy breed a few cows without as pay for his hard work, but the herd bull hangs back in the timber most of the time. If you want the real herd bull, try to watch the herd for a while. Keep in mind the herd bull is the meanest bull, but not necessarily the biggest.
+1 what Ermine said. You have to let the smaller ones walk if you want a big one. Most guys say they can do it, but few actually can.
I've done Dan's strategy a number of times when the herd had several satellites making a lot of noise and the herd bull just turned and bugled at me at 50 yards.
Like others have said, some have better success with very aggressive calling, while others have had success by sneaking in without making a sound. Personally , I prefer to get in tight on a bull and hit a few mews, then let the bull tell me what I should do next. Mews have worked wonders for me, but I've also had to get ultra aggressive on a few occasions as well. People have a tendency to do what's worked for them in the past. Everyone has had differing results, so that's why there can be such a contrast in strategy. Keep in mind, most every tactic will work some of the time. No tactic will work all of the time.
I wait for Dan, Bruce or Lou to call me and say let's go elk hunting.
Problem is I haven't got the call yet;)
I've had less success bugling aggressively while in close. Two things usually happen , I've given away my position and they're gone.
Also, I'll know a herd bull when I see him. Just because a bull has a herd doesn't make him a herd bull.
Is it just a matter of moving slow and being quiet? Any tips on your sneaking techniques? It's that last 100 yards that causes me lots of trouble.
All of these guys are killers, put the entire playbook in your bag.
The first day I took my wife elk hunting I put a 300 class bull within five yards of her. I used this technique. The bull covered 150 yards in about one second and bugled the whole way. It bugled the nastiest, snottiest, rankest bugle you can imagine right in her face, then it turned and blew out of there as fast as he came in.
Thanks Dan
A herd bull may stand back in the timber from other fighting and bugling bulls for the sake of self preservation. This I have seen on many occasions. Many times there may be mixed herds, because there has to be a limit to the number of cows a bull can keep track of and breed, I suspect. Many times as herd dynamics are changing, one may see a bull with 20+ cows... but I am not sure he can hang on to them long???
In almost every herd of any significance, there was a dominant bull and one or two subordinates that he tolerated throughout the rutting period. If other satellites came into the area, the subordinates generally did the chasing. Often they did the most bugling, sometimes sounding like the "bull of the woods". As AZBUGLER notes, usually the true herd bull was quieter and wandered more. Many, many times I've watched as the subordinate bred cows right in front of the dominant bull while he looked on.
In the evenings it was common for the subordinate bull to keep the cows in order when feeding, while the dominant bull roamed over into another drainage. Sometimes he would stay away for an hour or more before returning. If a hunter came upon this herd during that time, they'd mistakenly think the noisy, aggressive bull with the cows was the "herd" bull, when in fact the real herd bull was out checking the surrounding territory.
Some herds would have four or five satellites making a lot of noise - usually new guys roaming from herd to herd. Since we knew the herds, we were able to watch the dynamics between the dominant bull, the "little buddy" subordinates, and the interlopers as the rut progressed. There would sometimes be so much bugling going on that the herd bull would simply turn toward the new guys and roar at them, but he'd given up on challenging them. But the tolerated subordinate bull(s) would wear themselves out going back and forth. They were easy to call in with a close challenge bugle. The dominant bull, not so much.
This photo was taken on September 23rd. The herd had grown so large that the dominant bull tolerated three regular subordinate bulls to help keep things in line. You can only see part of the herd here. The subordinates would chase after other bulls trying to horn in, while the dominant bull wandered around and watched the proceedings. The younger bulls got plenty of action.
One evening I glassed as another large herd bull left his cows in a different drainage (he had one regular little buddy with their smaller herd), snuck in to the edge of this big herd silently, clipped out four cows, and pushed them up a narrow draw, over the ridge and back to his herd on the other side. The subordinate bulls were so busy with noisy satellites on the other side that neither they nor the "herd bull" noticed this big silent bull as he snuck in, stole the girls, and left. He was big enough and mean enough that he could have kicked any of the subordinates butts, maybe the bigger herd bull too, but he was happy with his herd on the other side, just wanted some new babes for the harem.
That is pure gold. So much of it holds true for the area I've hunted over the last 15 years, it makes a lot of the things I've seen come clear.
Best of Luck, Jeff
Jaquomo: Do you think the reason the big bull let those subordinate bulls "breed" those cows was because they weren't in heat? I would assume a big bull doesn't care as much about a cow until she's actually in heat and then no one is allowed close to her.
The best however is killing one early before he herds up. In my unit that sometimes can not happen as they are already with cows opening weekend.
It has been shown in research that sometimes the biggest bulls in the yard won't be with the herd. They let the little bulls run the cows and when they want a piece of ass they go in and get it.
Some bulls have been know to only go in and be with cows during the night. Spend the rest of the time off alone.
I killed a big bull who was doing the same thing. I ambushed him as he was leaving his bed for the day.
I've witnessed a few time the biggest dominate bulls letting smaller bulls run the show and run the cows. But I knew who was the "herd" bull.
The other satellites bounce around from herd to herd, grabbing whatever opportunities are available.
BTW, mule deer in good-sized herds often exhibit this same behavior and tolerance of subordinate bucks during their rut.
I've essentially lived with relatively unhunted elk during the rut for over 30 years, studying individual herd bulls and herd dynamics, taking tons of photos, keeping logs. That this dominant-subordinate bull relationship is such a mystery to some is likely because most elk encounters are just that, for most hunters. Encounters where they either kill an elk or spook them off. They don't get the opportunity to watch how the relationships develop throughout the stages of the rut. I've been extraordinarily lucky to have had the opportunity to be among the elk for around 25 days in September each season for three decades. I'm now applying what I learned to a totally new area with much lower elk numbers (and fewer public land hunters).
In areas where there is lower elk density, it's not as common for a "dominant" bull to tolerate subordinates. Nor is it common in those areas to see very large herds during the rut. A single herd bull with a dozen cows has a manageable bunch. But when the count starts getting into the teens or more, behavior changes out of necessity.
Jaquomo, What other criteria makes a bull in the timber the "herd" bull?
I guess I was confusing a single bull protecting the cows he possess as a "herd" bull. It appears as herds get bigger and bigger (later in the season I suspect) the dynamics change significantly.
Due to the variation in behavior of these different herds, are they both "herd" bulls.. or something different?
Maybe the old big bull in the timber likes self preservation more than protecting cows... Thus he is smart and lives to be old and big. Maybe that is what Ermine was getting at??
One example - a friend got into a herd that had a very nice, mature 6 point bull running the show. That bull was very aggressive, running all over trying to chase the smaller bulls away, bugling his head off. From a scoring perspective Chris estimated it would be about a 320 bull - very respectable for our OTC unit. The bull he killed was shadowing the herd, totally silent, just wandering along quietly in the timber on the fringe. That bull was a massive, palmated 7x8 that grossed 371.
Meanwhile in the next drainage over, a pair of bookend 5x bulls controlled a herd of a dozen or so cows throughout the whole rut. So either one of those would have been considered the "herd bull" for that particular bunch of cows. I've killed some super-aggressive 5x bulls that were "herd bulls" for our OTC area. I've also killed some much bigger loner 6x bulls that weren't interested in all the drama, I guess, or they wandered away from "their" herd.
I posted this on another thread, but once I was studying a very nice 6x dominant bull for a few days, trying to figure out how to kill him without running him into the next unit. One night a new herd moved into a drainage over a mile away as the crow flies. The bull I was hunting heard all the bugling in the morning (they were so far away that I couldn't hear it until I got closer) left his cows when they went into the transition timber toward the bedding, and wandered silently all the way over to check out the new guys. I shadowed him the whole way but never had wind to ambush him, and he paid no attention to my calls except to look over. He was on a mission.
After he watched them silently as they filtered through a long park enroute to their bedding, he turned around and ambled all the way back to his herd in the bedding area. This was about September 15th. If I'd just happened upon him and killed him that morning, I might have thought he was some lone bull wandering around, instead of what he really was - which was a dominant herd bull checking out the strangers.
Sneaking in; Tough to sneak in if you have been calling to them constantly- they have been keeping track of your location and have you pegged.
I can think of a couple times that challenge bugle in close backfired on me, whether staying quiet would have worked- don't know. Seems like the more confident the dominant bull is [that he is the biggest and baddest!]- the better it would work.
Bigdan,
Questions for you.
Above you said most of the bull you kill are herd bulls. From reading posts on here you have had some of the absolute best tags in the west ( Nevada- Southwest Desert in Utah- Arizona- Bighorns in Wyoming, and breaks tags in Montana).
Why have you not taken more bulls over 350? Do you generally shoot the first nice bull you get a crack at or have you just not held out for the really big ones?
