Dr. Ashby / Good Arrow Setup For Elk
Elk
On the advice of a friend, I recently looked up the "Ashby Articles" and spent several hours reading over his studies and theories on obtaining maximum arrow penetration. Overall, what I read made a lot of sense to me. I realize that I'm probably opening a can of worms here but I am hoping to get some feedback before I start changing my arrows around next year. Currently, I shoot a 300 spine 29.5" GT Hunter w/ 2" Blazers. I have a 12gr insert and 30gr of weight. Using Nockturnals, my total arrow weight is 450gr and my FOC is 13%. My draw length is 29.5" and my Mathews Legacy is maxed out at 70lbs. Arrow speed is 271fps, KE is 73lbs and Momentum is .541. Current broadhead is a G5 Striker. Here's my question -- If I don't increase my current total arrow weight much (500 grains max --in an attempt to keep my trajectory relatively flat), do you think I will realize a noticeable penetration difference by making the other changes he recommends? (Two blade, single bevel broadhead, barrel tapered small diameter lightweight shaft, longer inserts and attempt to get my FOC to 18% or more.) I only hunt elk and hogs and my current arrow works well, on good shots, I get complete pass throughs. I would just like to build the best arrow I can for the game that I hunt and the bow that I shoot. Thank you for your input.
I dont think you have to be a Dr to get a good arrow setup.
Yep. Screw a heavier Abowyer broadhead on there and you will see a marked improvement. Your compound is totally center shot and you have a hugely stiff arrow, you should be able to get that to fly easy.
You could spend a bunch of money making those changes but I don't think you will see much improvement over what you currently shoot. Your set-up is really good the way it is. I wouldn't waste time on a single bevel head or a two blade if your only hunting elk and pigs. I would stick with a three or 4 blade head. If you went with a full metal Jacket 300 spine that would get you a small diameter shaft and put you just over 500 grains in arrow weight. My personal set-up is a 300 spine FMJ with a 125 gr four blade Magnus Stinger buzzcut. There really is no reason to worry about foc or ke when you are shooting a 70# compond until you are hunting cape buffalo or water buffalo.
I honestly don't think you need to increase your arrow weight. How much do your nocturnals weigh. That takes away some of your foc.
My set up is 72 lbs, 30" draw. Total arrow weight 465 grain, GT kinetic 300 spine, shaft at 28". 125 grain tip, blazer vanes.
Youre already shooting through elk. the amount of evidence he's amassed behind he's theories speaks for itself. Merely on an educational and theoretical level, I think it worth every ones time to be conversant with them. And I think anything you can do to increase the killing efficiency of your arrow is worth it in general.
Apply then where feasible, but remember their purpose is to increase penetration efficiency, to what are now ridiculous levels. His most recent advancements have his team getting complete penetration repeatedly on water buffalo with a 45 pound bow! surely mixed up in all that data there is something of use for all of us.
Finally, it's worth remembering the game you are hunting and applying all that is relevant.
For me it came down to: I was shooting a 77# bow, 24% FOC on skinny carbons, 300gr (insert) single bevel grizzlies. Yes, I was getting pass throughs. And those grizzlies cut surprisingly bigger holes than I thought they would. But I was wasting a lot of energy killing dirt and trees on the other side of the elk. I wanted bigger holes and had some extra energy to cut them. So, my compromise is to use the biggest hole cutting two blade I'm aware of, the tree shark.. It still weighs 300 gr, but I'm mindfully losing the 3:1 ratio and single bevel and trading for a concave design. I'm still getting pass throughs, through ribs and lungs, but I'm also cutting a much larger hole.
Anyway, IMO his work is worth the attention of any hunting archer and we are indebted to him for it, but apply what is appropriate for your situation.
I've seen obsessions to get the ultimate equipment described as "pole-vaulting over mouse turds". That seems to be the case with the Ashby followers who are changing from perfectly adequate hunting arrows with excellent broad heads to a heavy arrow with a 2 blade head to fix what isn't broke. The original poster's combination of bow and arrows looks just fine for elk. Work on accuracy in hunting situations, shot placement and selection and go slay elk! Worked for me for 40 years without following the Ashby theory of heavy arrows and 2 blade heads.
Wow... Just went through this same process over the weekend. I was shooting Carbon Express Maxima 350's at 29.25" with Blazer vains and 100grn Slick Trick Magnums. I was around 430 grns with this setup and have had no problems on deer. But after watching some recent youtube clips and seeing how some were getting poor penetration on some of their shots on elk, I started to question my setup.
First thought was to bump up to the Magnum 125's. But after calculating costs and spending another $100 on broadheads, I felt the $'s would be better spent on heavier arrows. So, after going through every arrow possible, I settled on the FMJ's 340's. Added about 45grns to my setup. Pin gaps obviously grew, but penetration even on my practice tagets and butts is a huge difference.
I head to Colorado in 3 weeks to hunt to last wk of the season. I was probably over thinking it as well, but I have a bit more peace of mind now.
My $.02
Isn't what Ashby contributed the tenants of the other side of the spectrum-lower draw weight bows and slower velocity? If that is the case, then what he produced is certainly applicable. As pointed out, it may not be the case with faster shooting bows. It definately never hurts to understand why something works, in fact, its kinda fun. The testing and science only solidifies what we all assume to be true and the same dynamics he discusses holds true for all stick and string combinations.
High Country, I have nearly an identical setup as you, only using Wac'ems and have never had a problem with complete or near complete pass throughs. I wouldn't worry so much about changing an arrow setup but focus more on the other major contributor, form and good arrow flight. Ashby brought that up as well when talking about the deflection of the arrow on impact...
good articles, thanks for posting.
A strong 2 blade head increases your penetration potential on any setup- not that you really need it. I like arrows in the 450-550gr range for everything except very heavy game.
To be a true Ashby disciple....don't you need to be shooting 650gr? Anything less gets you kicked out of the club.....
Lot of good advice above, but if you are still dead set on making changes, here is something you can do that won't cost an arm and a leg, first, getting rid of the lighted nocks will give you a bump in FOC. Haven't checked it out, but I'm under the understanding that for every grain you take off the rear is like adding 3gr to the tip. Also if you can safely shorten your arrow, that will increase your FOC also. The good thing about all this is you can theoretically test all these things without ever physically changing an arrow by utilizing a good archery software. You have so much power in your bow, I wouldn't get two hung up on the single bevel thing, but a good quality two blade like the stinger or my favorite the buzzcut could be a positive change. And with the small size of the bleeders on those two mentioned heads, there four blade configuration should work for you too. I know a lot of trad bow guys that use them to great success. With all the archery software out there, there is no reason to know what should and shouldn't work before you ever buy a thing. Custom trad bows can be a little trickier but compounds it works about every time.
Pat X 1000
With a modern compound of 60 lbs spend your time on tuning your whitetail set up vs chasing the math and articles
I've taken mine to Alaska with nothing but pass throughs and have not shot through some 90 lb does in the southeast.
Animals that move on the shot have more affect on penetration than mere increase in size.
Several years ago Dave Holt did an article in Bowhunter magazine and the lighter faster arrow penetrated ballistic gel the best.It just confirmed that the math is overrated.
Shoot heavy arrows if it tunes best and benefit from less bow noise but unless you are hunting thick skinned,heavy boned animals (not bears,elk or even moose)I would focus on the flight characteristics for penetration.If the weight gives you that then great.
I applaud your willingness to take it to the next level and choose a setup that is animal specific. Going heavier with a better penetrating arrow will allow you to take shots at more difficult angles...or the truth of the matter is many if not most are going to take those shots anyway, but you will be the one with a greater chance at a positive outcome. CASE IN POINT: George Mann black bear with 130 pound bow, 900 grains and 36 inches of Broadhead and arrow..over kill...right. WRONG. When he was presented with a hard quartering angle on a 400 pound black bear, he took it, severed the femur and the arrow continued through the vitals and out the shoulder. Had any other Hunter taken the same shot the arrow would have likely stopped in the hind quarter and would have probably lost the bear.
Incorrect statement,I frontal shot (no choice) a Brown Bear (500+ pounds) that exited his hind quarter and ran 70 yards and piled up.....with my whitetail set up.
Arrow flight wins the day
My son shot a 6x6 bull elk in Colorado in 2011. The bull was about 5 - 7 yards, quartering away hard. He shot the bull just at the front of the hindquarter (aiming for teh opposite side leg) and the arrow EXITED in front of the leg bone on the opposite side! It was full penetration, with the arrow only hanging on by the vanes. I'm guessing that the arrow penetrated close to 3.5 ft of elk as a guess. After the first or second hop, the undamaged arrow fell out.
He was shooting a Hoyt Trykon at 72# with Easton FMJ shafts tipped with Muzzy MX3 85 grain broadheads.
The bull ran about 60 yards in a semicircle, stopped and stood about 25 yards away and dropped right there in sight.
Personally, I don't think I would have taken that shot, but one cannot argue with the results. I was totally amazed at the penetration.
Do what you think will work best for yo; FWIW - we both hunt deer as well as elk without making any changes....
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Genesis, if you actually read Ashby's research (which it seems most people who discount his work never have), you would see that arrow flight IS the second most important factor for penetration. Structural integrity is 1st, so your statement about flight is correct and also in line with Ashby's findings.
FOC is 3rd and total mass is way down at 6th, contrary to what most people think.
I have heard Ashby speak twice and have read his papers.
Ashby was doing his research on thick skinned, heavy boned cape and water buffaloes- not thin skinned animals like deer or turkey.
After hearing and reading him I have increase my FOC some (12-15%) and have gotten better arrow flight, control and penetration. I did not go to the extreme as Ashby advocates.
My conclusions are Ashby has some valid points, BUT "if it ain't broke- don't fix it". There is room for improvement, but not radical overhaul of your equipment setup.
Understand,I respect Dr. Ashby's research and believe every single word for the most part.Weight steals every single ounce of potential from a bow and that is good.Woody Sanford also has great research that reaches me also.
When applying his (Ashby)research to North America regarding arrow weight and FOC I haven't seen the penetration benefits to limit my equipment choices in a manner he would suggest is all.Modern compound bow/arrow have done a great job of equalizing all the various components of penetration
I think if one chooses to maximize the penetration potential on ANY part of an elk then Ashby has well documented good guidelines for building arrows.
Also, perfect arrow flight, perfect shot placement, perfect backyard accuracy and retard broadhead sharpness are all easily achievable with a heavy 30+% FOC arrow just like other arrow builds.
Agree 200% with cnelk and Pat, although JTV summed it up nicely with his last thought.
Use a reasonably heavy arrow that flies great out of your bow, tipped with a SHARP quality fixed BH, go elk hunting, and don't worry about the extraneous minutia.
Honestly, if people would spend as much time worrying about actually learning how to hunt elk as worrying about a setup that could kill an elephant, the success rate would be a heck of a lot higher than 10%!
wyolullshooter,
Do you know what % hit but never recover?
Hammer, obviously that's a question that can't be answered. What I can say is that shooting a heavy arrow with lots of energy isn't a cure all for a shot gone astray.
My hunting buddy pulled a shot on a 5pt bull many years ago. He was shooting a 2219 XX75 tipped with a 125 BH. He was pulling 75# @ 29". He hit the scapula, which managed to penetrate to the insert. That same bull was seen 2 days later chasing cows, no worse for wear. That said, I can't see where your question has anything to do with this thread.
