That's Denny Austad in the middle with the Spider Bull and the others are guides that work for Mossback. You need to have a fat wallet for the most part to hunt with that bunch. The guy on the far right is the only problem I have with Mossback in that he's had multiple game law convictions in several states and yet Doyle still employs him! I won't mention his name, but many probably know who he is!
How about trespass fees? land leases?
By your logic we should all hunt state land OTC tags always, once you toss private land in the mix you got to throw out the whole fair chase thing out the window.
DJ,all you are doing is making excuses to justify taking short cuts,if the hunt was really so important that you waited 20yrs to draw I would hope you knew something about the area and the animals. Hunting isn't just about trophy pictures but the entire process.
This thread had to been of started to cause a stir because I doubt but a very few on here have the financial resources to go on a hunt with these guides.
This is just my opinion and I realize many may not agree and that's ok but when you pay people to find a animal and then pay them to babysit it for you until you can arrive to then have a guide either call the animal into range or put you into position to ambush it are you really hunting or just shooting? is this really fair chase? Hunting is the entire process of the harvest not just the final "grip and grin" trophy pictures which is what pay to kill shooters seem to miss.
People complain about having guides "babysit" animals and keep track of them for a couple months before the hunt, but its not just the guides that do it. The locals and DIY guys do the same thing. All these animals are watched all the time trail cams and all.
And the "posse" argument gets real old. The largest "posse's" I've seen are from DIY guys with their family and friends spread all over the mountain with radios and all. Its not just the guides that do these things. The difference is the guides I have run into for the most part have been the most respectful and helpful and the locals have been the biggest jerks, go figure.
As for Doyle Moss... I've yet to read anything that indicates he's violated any laws. He just runs a successful business.
No the guy on the right is not Doyle! I stated he's employed by Doyle Moss as a guide. Doyle does not have any game law violations that I'm aware of, but he surely knows of the guide's background when it's out all over the web and in court records that are easy to pull up on the net.
You are correct! I was in a hurry to go work on my camper to get it ready to head for Wyoming later this week. When I looked quickly at that picture I thought it was a guy he employs that has a goatee and looks very similar. Sorry for the mistake!
Can you not read English? Nobody has said Doyle has any violations and I have not seen the name Brownlee mentioned anywhere!
I don't know that I would make that last sentence of yours a blanket statement, LOL! So now that the name Brownlee has been mentioned, are you saying he didn't work for Doyle and doesn't have any game law violations in several states? If you go on his website he says right in his introduction that he worked for Mossback. You can also look up the court records for him showing his convictions. That's all I'm saying here and it is FACT!
How are we to make getting compensated for knowledge and expertise illegal?? (that one has been around for awhile, could be tough to word it just right)
How do you keep people from being out on public lands? (other than the good folks like you and yours?)
There are principals and there are brokers in this equation. Bitchin about the brokers will not solve your supposed grievances.
My point was that most people don't even know how the game is played, they simply know they DO NOT LIKE IT. (mostly because it takes more $ than they have) So they squawk loudly about which they know little.
The shooter did not "hunt" the Spider bull. He only shot it. Maybe that's typical of all Moss hunts, maybe not.
Moss has built a very successful business model. To some it's a sleazy way to exploit a resource. Kind'a like divorce lawyers, but there is a market.
It tempts ordinary guys to sell intel on exceptional heads. There are pics with crowds of "helpers" that were involved with the hunt.
Would I want to "hunt" that way? No. I can't even watch his videos even though they show some incredible animals.
I don't hate, nor am I jealous of those who have killed "top" trophies with him. I don't respect their efforts, that's all.
And who knows what I would be willing to do IF I had the funds. It's a question that I will never have to answer, unless I win a lottery.
I know nothing of the man himself or his ethics.
Every time I see some vigorous defense of abhorrent behavior in the hunting world, it comes from one of two sources.
The least common is defense by a friend of the person who's conduct is being questioned.
More frequently, it is from someone who is financially benefitting or hopes to do so from the abhorrent activity.
See it with high fence kill pens, unethical hunting practices and products. Always the same.
“Techno Death” by Terry Receveur
“Wow, what a buck! He’s 60 yards out, but I can make the shot;” Bubba thought to himself. Bubba drew his 85% let-off, 70#, dual cam compound bow, with his three ball-bearing ultra smooth trigger release, and settled his 60-yard fiber optic pin on the buck. Upon squeezing the trigger the rest dropped away and the 200-grain, spiral wrapped carbon arrow with the 85-grain expanding mechanical head was on its way! At 330 fps it only took a nanosecond for the arrow to find its mark. The buck traveled about 50 yards before expiring in a heap. Bubba was ecstatic! He couldn’t help but think to himself that his carbon-filtered camo had kept the buck from smelling him. He was also proud of himself for shooting a buck he had on film from his trail camera. The buck was indeed magnificent. Five matching points per side and long tines and width. The buck would surely score well above the P&Y minimum. Bubba’s first buck eligible for the “books”!
Many would see this as a fantastic example of what bowhunting embodies today. Utilizing every technological advantage to take a great animal. It was all completely legal and exactly what the outdoor hunting shows depict on a daily basis. So, what’s wrong with the above scenario? The 60-yard shot, the scent shielding suit, the ultra fast bow, the trail camera, the 85% let-off bow?
The above scenario fails to address one of the core elements of a successful hunt, the chase! Only half of the equation was satisfied, the kill! To kill is not success unless accompanied by the chase. Vance Bourjaily eloquently stated this interrelationship in his article “Hunting is Humane” in the February 15, 1964 issue of the Saturday Evening Post. “The two parts of the sequence must occur together, or there is no satisfaction. Killing, and this is generally misunderstood, is not pleasure at all if the challenge of hunting does not accompany it.” Most will agree that the feeling of accomplishment, pride, satisfaction, and culmination of a truly successful hunt, is not the size or score of the animal harvested, but in the effort and energy expended in the pursuit! In fact, a truly successful hunt often times does not even include the killing of an animal. Robert Ruark summarized a short anecdotal quotation as follows: “There was a Russian school of acting which once maintained stoutly that a good tragic actor had to suffer. The same must be true of all hunters… The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition.” Theodore Roosevelt was also a student of the chase, as evidenced in the following quote: “Of course in hunting one must expect much hardship and repeated disappointment; and in many a camp, bad weather; lack of shelter; hunger; thirst, or ill success with game, renders the days and nights irksome and trying. Yet the hunter worthy of the name always willingly takes the bitter if by so doing he can get the sweet, and gladly balances failure and success, spurning the poorer souls who know neither.” I would venture a guess that Bubba is a poor soul.
I doubt Bubba is alone in his lack of knowledge concerning the chase. Bubba is most likely a late 20s to early 40s guy who grew up on instant information and gratification. The television and Internet have brought a whole world of information and experiences into his home at the touch of a button. The problem lies in that the whole story is not being shown or described. It is simply a glimpse of a series of events and a choreographed ending to provide instant gratification and satisfaction to Bubba. What are we to expect of Bubba? All he knows is that you can purchase product “X” and have nearly instant success as depicted on TV. Of course, success doesn’t come that easy; therefore there must be another short cut or gadget that Bubba overlooked. The killing of game ultimately comes, but at the expense of shortcutting the wilderness experience. The technology available allows this! It is technology that most threatens our sport of bowhunting. Not only for traditionalist, but also for all bowhunters. As technology advances and shortcuts emerge the chase is lessoned and the kill increased.
Dedicated seasons for bowhunting were developed in recognition of the fact that bowhunting is supposed to be hard. The allotted days a field were apportioned in direct relationship with the degree of difficulty for attainment of management goals. Success rates for bowhunters are soaring, and it is only prudent to expect the allotted number of days a field to be reduced. I also submit that the chase is also lessoned as described above. This interrelationship of technology and diminished “thrill of the chase” is described in the following quote from Aldo Leopold: “Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do, and sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation in the use of these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things… I have the impression that the American sportsman is puzzled; he doesn’t understand what is happening to him. Bigger and better gadgets are good for industry, so why not for outdoor recreation? It has not dawned on him that outdoor recreations are essentially primitive, atavistic; that their value is contrast-value; that excessive mechanization destroys contrasts by moving the factory to the woods or to the marsh. The sportsman has no leaders to tell him what is wrong. The sporting press no longer represents sport; it has turned billboard for the gadgeteer. Wildlife administrators are too busy producing something to shoot at to worry much about the cultural value of the shooting."
Hunting in general is also threatened by technology. The days when the public perceived the hunter as one who matched wits with the beasts on a level playing field are long gone. Gone also is the prestige and allure of the sportsman. Theodore Roosevelt described the past allure and the sportsman as follows: “In hunting, the finding and killing of the game is after all but a part of the whole. The free, self-reliant, adventurous life, with its rugged and stalwart democracy; the wild surroundings, the grand beauty of the scenery, the chance to study the ways and habits of the woodland creatures – all these unite to give the career of the wilderness hunter its peculiar charm.” The charm is gone and the public now sees a fully gadgeted nimrod heading a field to slay the defenseless creature. Technology has eliminated the defenses of the prey. Instinctive safety zones of game have been breached. Superior eyesight, sense of smell, and the desire to procreate are all addressed and manipulated by technology to increase kill rates.
It is the general non-hunting population who will determine our hunting future. If the degradation of the hunter, in the minds of Joe Public continues, they will legislate out our ability to pursue game.
I choose to self-limit and pursue game, not just kill it. I choose this for the reason verbalized by Sitting Bull, “when the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice, for we are hunters and we want our freedom.” I want my freedom and to use every form of technology and gadget available ensures nothing more than “Techno Death”.
A closing prayer to our future by Saxton Pope: “May the gods grant us all space to carry a sturdy bow and wander through the forest glades to seek the bounding deer; to lie in the deep meadow grasses; to watch the flight of birds; to smell the fragrance of burning leaves; to cast an upward glance at the unobserved beauty of the moon. May they give us the strength to draw the string to the cheek, the arrow to the barb and loose the flying shaft, so long as life may last.”
I don't bang on him tho. Its the fakers that pay him big bucks to turn free range hunting into pen hunting. Spyder bull is the perfect example. The guides did a great job of sewing up access, location and a couple kill shots. The hunter could have been Paris Hilton. Fly in, do what the pro's say, make headlines.
Not elitest! All are welcome to actually hunt! :)
Doyle is a great guy, very friendly, and will go out of his way to help other guys out. He pays his guides well, to do their job. And he tips other people that give him information on a big bull. I've been fortunate to know him, and if youre in the area hunting the bull he is after, he doesn't mess with you like a lot of other hunters do. He shares information with you, and is honest. He has strict rules for his guides, and wont put up with them breaking his rules. He is a first class outfitter that gets the job done. And yessir, there is a lot of jealousy involved when guys talk of him.
Good job Boubound.
Doyle is nothing but a product of Utah's wealth tag system that is cronyism extended to it's fullest depth of depravity.
Utah gives out and auctions more conservation, expo and landowner permits than all other states combined. It's essentially a system of limiting the average person to one or two tags per lifetime to allow the wealthy to pay to play on a yearly basis on units that have so few tags issued to the general public that they become so valuable, people will pay tens of thousands for a tag. This leads to the posse type of hunt. Wealth hunters buying tags pay finders fees and those average joe individuals fortunate enough to draw for these premium units bring in everybody they know to help with their once in a lifetime hunt. Everyone else wants to go because they don't have quality hunts of their own to take part in.
The depth of the cronyism is so deep and actually not technically illegal,that getting rid of it would require our state government to pass laws to cut off the hand that is feeding them so to speak.
In defense of Doyle and Denny, they have paid their dues. Denny spent almost 20 days on the mountain after the spyder bull. He surely wasn't simply called in for a day as the trigger man. At around 70 something years old, he appears to play this game at the highest level and loves it as much or more than any of us. Surely Doyle plays it with sweat and boot leather as hard as anyone ever has.
Needless to say Doyle is a really nice guy and definitively a very good guide. Whether you agree with the system that allowed him to become who he has is another story altogether.
Cheers, Pete
Its the American way........those guys are just smarter than the average bear...no sweat off of my behind.
I do not think anyone said anything negative about him personally. Nor the efficiency of his outfit. It is the system that allows a business like his to exist at the expense of the other hunters that is not in line with fair chase and the North American model of wildlife management.
I also suspect that most defending him and name calling have or hope to benefit by finding an animal and receiving a bounty. That conduct simply needs to be removed from the equation.
It is in effect Cooperate Hunting Inc. It has reduced hunting to check writing. All at the expense of the hunters who play the game fairly.
Sounds like Moss is actually pretty ethical in comparison to some thugs.....
+1 Link
But remember, it's because you're just jealous…..lol.
Now you're thinking and ask yourself these questions:
Why has not a single shed antler ever been found from the spyder bull with a pile of guys combing the country side?
A big antler dealer/collector that I talked to helps Doyle from time to time and the bull was definitely hunted in the wild but he surmises the bull was not wild born.....eh?
He estimates several bulls were dumped/cut loose from a breeding program starting 10 years ago and perhaps as recently as 5 or 6 years ago.
The bull probably bred cows but he tells me they (Utah) had a massive "spike" hunt that year and probably wiped out most of his progeny.
How big do these bulls get? Here's one that goes 575 inches and was supposedly the biggest ever a couple years ago. Although, the bar keeps getting raised with selective breeding.
Back on original topic: Doyle and his "crew" are legally doing their thing at a level far above the vast majority of dum-dums (myself included) running around the hills.
