Fatal shot, can't recover. Keep hunting?
Elk
If you hit a bull and you knew it was fatal, but you lost all tracking sign and have done grids for 2 days, do you continue searching and call the hunt over or regroup and get back at hunting for a new bull?
I would put that question to yourself with only you making that choice.
What kind of a frontal? Straight on or slightly quartering to and how far? Arrow weight and broadhead.
After exhausting all avenues I would try to kill another one IF it was legal.
What does the Law in the State you're hunting say you should do?
If you've put in the effort and done your best to find it and spent two days at it, I'd go back to hunting.
If I gut shot one then I would punch my tag other that I'd keep hunting
If its not unlawful to keep hunting in the state you are hunting in then I think this is totally a personal decision. You will probably get a ton of responses supporting either "punching your tag" and heading home or keep hunting.
For me it comes down to whether or not I feel like I put my best effort in retrieving the hit animal. IF I feel like I gave it all I could and exhausted all my options in finding it, I would keep hunting.
I have hunted with a guy in the past who stuck one, looked for 3-4 hours, couldn't find it and resumed hunting. That didn't sit well with me as it didn't seem like 3-4 hours was putting in his best effort to recover the animal. Just my opinion...
Only you can really answer that question.
That said. I feel crappy about lost animals as does anyone else. Its kept me up more than one night.
If its legal though in your area, and you've spent the time diligently searching than there is nothing wrong in my mind with starting on a new bull.
I've lost 2 animals in my life, and both were what I thought were fatal shots...Just never found them, regardless of the time or help.
GL
Personal choice. Taking or not taking another elk isn't going to measurably help or hurt the population in most places where the herds are healthy. I would likely keep hunting after I felt I made an appropriate effort at recovery.
If he's lost due to a poor shot resulting from a poor choice or execution on my part, I might decide to sit out the rest of my time and work on the mental or mechanical fix for that.
I don't know the aw where you hunt. I do know that losing animals come with all types of hunting. Good shots not always excluded. Trust me on that one. The thing is, it is a decision you must make. If I felt like I did all I could do, I'd hunt if it were still in me to hunt. Only thing I gotta ask is how do you know it was lethal if you never found him? God Bless
If you never recover, or have other confirmation, how do you know it was fatal?
Many "perfect" shots are far from that. Weird things happen as well, like deflected arrows etc.
As long as you have a legal tag, you can keep on hunting. The ethics police might be after you though!
What if it happens again in the same season? At what point do you stop? Where's the line in your conscience is the question.
I like the 48 hour rule. I will not hunt another animal until I've spent 48 hours looking for the first. It's just a number, but it seems reasonable to me. To each their own, but agreed that a reasonable amount of time needs to be spent prior to moving on.
+1 Bowfreak.........The reality is though, you NEVER KNOW if the shot is fatal until the bull would be recovered....which didn't happen in this mythical case.
Unfortunate, but keep hunting.
Mark
If I really felt it was in the boiler room or the guts, then I'm done.
I have done both kept hounting and stopped hunting.
One of the times I stopped was on the first day of a 6 daY Newfoundland Hunt for woodland caribou. I know the animal died and we radioED in to extract me on day 2 and I came home early. In other situations I've continued to hunt.
To me it's not black-and-white.......... right or wrong.......... but I know what feels right at the time given the unique circumstances to that situation
One thing I would add is that if people are using plausible denial on whether or not it was a fatal shot in the situation I think that's bogus.
Most of the time we know where the arrow hit and we know what organs it connected with and we know whether or not an animal is likely to survive such a wound.
If it makes someone feel better to say I didn't see it die therefore there is a hope that's fine go ahead and humor yourself, but it's not honest. If you want to keep hunting.........then keep hunting, but don't say because you didn't find a gut or liver shot animal that maybe it lived and theefore us use that as reason to justify continuing to hunt.
Darn few shots can PASS THROUGH through somewhere other than the legs of an animal and have it survive.
If I know it was a fatal shot and most of us have a fairly good idea when it is, I keep looking until I exhaust my time there and then leave with a punched tag. This is what I would do but its really a personal choice and not one I would push on someone else.
I'm with JLS on this. If I "know in my gut" the animal is dead(doesn't matter if it's bull, cow, or calf) I'm done, regardless of the law.
I hit the bull with first arrow at 18 yards and only got 6 inches of penetration. I cow called him and stopped him. Got a second arrow off and hit him at 65 yards and thought I hit perfect on second shot. This was all on video too and it would have been by far my best bull probably around 270-280. After getting to the spot of second shot, I found my arrow broken off with only 10 inches of penetration. I was baffled. Every G5 montec that hit even rib bent for my partner and I. First time using them, only switched because they flew great. We backed out after finding arrow. It was clear and expected to be in the low 20s that night. Next morning we got to the trail and there was a ton of blood with bubbles in it. I thought it would be a short tracking job. From my bowhunting experience, tons of bubbly blood equals a fatal shot. the trail got thinner and thinner then went uphill. Blood was lost on the upslope but found where bull rested on top and coughed blood. I started thinking I only got one lung. Had 2 buddies come help my partner and I do a grid the next day. I was ready to hang it up not only from losing an animal but also a nice animal that was worked hard for. My buddies kept telling me to keep going. I had to leave the woods and watch football for a day to clear the head, then I got back at it. I ended up shooting a satellite bull 6 days later. Nervous about losing one, I let him come in close and really steadied the shot. I got a pass through and had him stumble towards me and crash at 15 yards in front me. It was sweet redemption. Although I would have rather found my first bull, I had a lot of encounters and learning experiences that I wouldn't have had if I didn't keep hunting.
A forestry worker told me it is a grey area about finding bull once they rot because it looks like I harvested the animal for the antler and let the meat waste. He told me to keep at it at get another.
Genesis how is a gut shot any different than a shot in the vitals that is not recovered? they are both fatal.
Personally I lnow one tag holder who shot a bull, looked for a day then went back to hunting yesterday. Thank goodness he missed this time. Well at least that is what he told me. Another hunter has now lost 2 bulls over 370 in the last 3 days. To me both of these guys need to go home. Then regroup , check their equipment's capabilities and limitations and start practicing. But every hunter thjnks differently and some don't realize what they are doing affects the herd for years.
the questions is if you keep hunting and you stumble on the horns of the other to do you take them? Or do you leave them as you werent going to punch a tag for that animal that you arrowed days or maybe even a year prior?
Out of respect to the animal which i believe is only fair, i would and have punched my tag.
Funny most on here clam to be meat hunters not trophy hunters. If your a meat hunter you keep hunting in my mind.
I am a meat hunter through and through. However, that doesn't in my mind give me the right to keep shooting animals because I can't/don't recover them.
I hear mine fall when fatally hit. People think their hits are a lot better than they are so a fatal hit is pretty much a guess till the animal is recovered.
My mistake I read frontal instead of fatal
Depends how much meat is in the freezer, if I got a good supply I'd punch my tag, if it's empty like it is now, keep hunting
It's a personal decision. If your gonna hunt again at least give a damn good effort to find it. Like spend a week searching. Looking for crows etc. if everyone and their brother shoots and wounds an animal and gives a half ass try to recover them and then gives up and goes and shoots another animal. Double the number of animals is taken.
I've gut shot a bull once due to an arrow deflect off of a branch. I searched and searched and never found the bull. I punched my tag and didn't hunt more because in my mind I killed one...even thou I didn't recover anything.
if YOU believe that you have a fatal hit, then you are done. laws may vary from state to state, but ethics do not. just because you did not find it, does not mean that you did not "harvest" it.
i shot a bull this year, about a 330. could not find him that night or the next day. i had decided i was done, i went back 2 days later and looked again. still did not find him. i half heartedly hunted that night, really not trying. the next morning i found my bull from 4 days earlier, if i had shot another one the night before, i would legally have killed 2.
i found a 322 the morning that i shot my bull, someone else had lost that one. the DOW officer let me keep the antlers that i found. if i had seen him again and asked to keep another set of antlers and keep hunting, i am sure he thought i was a poacher.
you killed one, your season is OVER! whether you find it or not is not the question. it is about ethics, respect for other hunters, and respect for the animal.
It is a choice that only you can make, and there really is no right or wrong answer unless the law says otherwise.
I lost an elk on day 6 of a 7 day hunt, quartering away shot and the guide watched 30 inches of arrow completely disappear into the bull. I chose to spend my last day looking for the elk I shot instead of hunting another one. If the same shot would have happened on day 2 and we still couldn't find it after a serious effort I believe by day 4 I would be hunting again.
When I shot my first bull I didn't think I was going to find it. On that occasion my tag was punched whether I found THAT bull or not. I ended up finding it, but was only able to salvage a little of the meat. :^(
I can't say that I would feel this way each and every time, but that is how I decided to do it that time. It's a personal choice case-by-case basis for me.
I have lost some deer over the years, but after a bit of soul searching I was looking for redemption each time, and continued to hunt. In my state, punching your tag on a deer is fairly pointless (does anyway) as I would just be going to buy another tag to hunt with.
Yeah Matt, I see your point.
I am lucky to have only wounded and lost a couple animals, they haunt my dreams. But they did not go to waste. Bears, coyotes, buzzards, eagles, ravens and countless other "critters" are more than thankful for an easy meal. That's not an excuse for sloppy hunting, but if you do all you can to recover an animal with no luck, hunt on.
I don't understand having a valid tag in your pocket and not hunting to fill it.
I killed a bull years ago - I punched him through the shoulders at close range, fletching sticking out, no exit hole, entry hole had arrow in it, angled in ..... I found like 1 spot of blood, and never my bull. 2nd biggest bull I ever shot.
I kept hunting the same area, never found the bull, and I'd have shot another had I gotten the chance. Gotta get back on the saddle when you're thrown.
Personal choice I guess, but why do most, if not all, guides/outfitters have a "draw blood, you are done" rule? Their reputation? Trying to hold a higher code of ethics? It's the Law? Their clients paid a lot of money to hunt...... TODDY
Agree with Genesis. IMO a bull has a better chance of survival with a one lung or a brisket hit, many times over the spine meat hit when the hunter thought they 10 ringed it. Arrows can do funny things, hit ribs and slide up, etc. A great deal of one lung and even some dbl lung hits go on and survive. One bull of Pat's proves that, documented. I've even heard of bulls killed where they found a broadhead imbedded and healed over in the heart.
Anything in the gut and chances are near zero for survival. The resulting infection will kill them eventually. Maybe a week or more, but they will die. The chest cavity is a much "cleaner" area with none of the inherent bacteria the gut has.
I agree, personal decision as to what a person does. No right or wrong answer, only that you've exhausted every effort to recover it. In your case 808 I honestly don't know if your bull died or survived. I probably would have gone back in and did what I could to fill my tag.
I've heard a good compromise being you keep hunting.... but are hunting for that same bull that was hit.
Ethics are a set of values that cause you to make decisions. To say one should share your same values (ethics) is like saying someone should believe the same faith as you...
It's a personal decision you make as to what you feel is right considering all factors that you observe. It is impossible to say it is one way when you (general term here...) were not privy to all the circumstances that the shooter observed.
Some shots that look deadly are in fact not. Seen it happen, and the animal ran off like no tomorrow with no blood for hundreds of yards. That animal didn't and wasn't going to die, but unless you saw the events unfold, you would be skeptical.
maravia14x24 sure sounds like the typical ethics police. This is what I got from his post. "Punch your tag after you wound one, regardless. Just like I did after hunting some more." Priceless advice from a guy that no doubt lives by what he preaches.
808, I posted before you showed the bull you killed. If you knew he was dead by finding him before you killed the second one, that's a decision that has more variables than originally posed. If you were content he couldn't be found, and continued on, that's hunting.
If anyone here has spent the time hunting they suggest, they'd know these things do happen. You got 2 choices. Quit or continue on. The decision is the individuals to make, not the ethics police. No one shuns those that would quit, so why come off on the guy that doesn't? God Bless
...yes, I keep hunting (assuming the legality clause).
Thanks for the responses. Every situation is different. If I hit the first bull with three days left, I would have punched the tag. I hit the bull on day 3 of 12 so had to make the choice. I am completely content with the choice I made. The hardest part was letting another arrow going worrying about wounding a second. I told myself I would only shoot with my 20yrd pin for the rest of the hunt. Had a big 6point at 62 yards broadside, which I am very confident shooting, but didn't even think of drawing back. I would have rather found the bull rotten on my last day than shoot a second, but thats not what happened. I never said the shots were good and I watched them hit. They were marginal, but got inside the body cavity. I am amazed and skeptical about the comments on bulls living with organs hit. I couldn't tell my self an animal hit in the body cavity will live just to make myself feel better about walking away from a lost animal. I was wondering if I was the only one that saw the hypocrisy in Marvia14x24 comment about hunting halfheartedly. I was pretty half hearted too when I got back on the saddle. I think the only difference was I spent 2 days looking for my bull with elk bugling all around me. As soon as I bugle back they come running. Even if you are half hearted you still might shoot a bull that runs at you.
Lots of responses and good points on both sides of the discussion.
Facts: 1) You saw the hits. But, did you have the angles corrrect? On many deer I have killed, I was wrong about the angle and exact hit placement. It all happens so fast..... 2) You looked to the best of your ability, even doing grid searches. Maybe next year or a few years later you will find some bones and be able to write a final chapter in that book. 3) "The true measure of a man is what he does when nobody is looking." Assuming no game laws came into play, then whether you punch your tag or continue is up to you. After all, late at night, YOU are the one that has to live with it. 4) Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one!
Congratulations on your bull! This experience is another lesson in life. Glean from it what there is to be learned and mature. It will help you in your future elk hunts.....
Thanks for sharing your experience and generating discussion. Maybe we all think about it some and maybe we all benefit in some way.
>>>>-------->
I punch the tag only if the bull was shot frontal or slightly quartering to me, at a long distance, with a Rage broadhead and I like to bash other bowhunters because I'm so much smarter than they are, even though I wasn't there at the time of the shot., :-)
I wonder how many of the "punch it" have ever hit an animal and, after a thorough search, kept hunting?
I do, question, if it's ethical to go back and recover, and keep, the antlers after the season is over? Seriously, that's a popular poaching scheme.
"4) Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one!" You forgot the punch line - AND THEY ALL STINK!
I guess it depends on how many days left to hunt. I would have to spend 4-5 days looking for the dead bull. My elk hunts are usually ten days so I suppose if I shot early I might have a chance to hunt a different bull. After day five the hunt would be over.
It's interesting to see the way people make rules to ease their consciences. No amount of distorting the situation will escape the fact that the Elk died because of you. Does the Elk get a second chance,please explain to me why you should? What number of unrecovered fatally shot Elk would it take you to stop? The ethics shown here are sad.
I'd look until I felt i had run through all my options for recovery, then I'd hunt.
Pats' bull from a couple of years back comes to mind.
Does it suck to wound an animal? Yes.
Should we do everything to find it? Yes.
All that said, we hunt with bow and arrow. If you hunt long enough and get to shoot a lot of animals you are going to lose some.
F&G takes into account lost animals when they allocate tags. They know that each type of hunting has an error rate.
I don't blame guys if they punch their tags but I also don't mind if guys keep hunting as long as they follow the law and unwritten rules of recovery.
Most guys are very responsible hunters. I get there are yahoos out there but they are rare.
Congrats on the bull. I disagree with the draw blood punch tag concept.
Most of us have bad things go wrong. Sometimes it's a poor decision. Sometimes unforeseeable circumstances.
If one learns from the loss, becomes a little more careful then don't worry about your ethical considerations... They are fine.
Congrats on the bull. I disagree with the draw blood punch tag concept.
Most of us have bad things go wrong. Sometimes it's a poor decision. Sometimes unforeseeable circumstances.
If one learns from the loss, becomes a little more careful then don't worry about your ethical considerations... They are fine.
It happened to me this elk season on a 330ish bull. 19 yd shot with an arrow buried in to the fletchings on a frontal shot. In the excitement I pulled the shot about 4" to the right of where I wanted the arrow to go.
I never recovered him and loaded the truck and came home. As far as I was concerned I was done. It has me seriously considering if I want to continue to hunt.
In most states you are permitted to kill only one elk. If you made a vital hit, you did just that. Not being able to find the elk is not an excuse for going out and killing a second one. What would happened to game herds if one animal was wounded and lost for each one that was found and tagged?
"Genesis how is a gut shot any different than a shot in the vitals that is not recovered? they are both fatal."
Over the years it has been very difficult for me to determine "fatal" by any other means than a gut hit.
The dynamic nature of the front side of animals can cause a myriad of problems when one attempts to hypothesize arrow path.
Shot angle/scapula movement,spine being lower help to create a Pandora's Box on lethality.
All that said,far more animals live on a one lunger than a gut shot.
edit....If I had video evidence of perfect arrow placement and confirmatory arrow evidence of such I would punch my tag as well as a gut shot
What if you hit and lost a second, or a third? What's the difference between the first and third one? Not necessarily a legal question but one of ethical integrity. I'd punch my tag and call it a season.
If you can't find them how do you know it was fatal? You only know it was fatal when you find them dead or see/hear them die. Until then, it's all speculation.
Several people have mentioned "if it is legal". Which states/provinces have regulations that specifically state that if you wound an animal and don't recover it that your tag is punched and your season is over? Just curious.
I think if you are debating hanging it up on one lost, that person would definitely hang after 2. Talking to the forestry official, he told me it is a gray area about taking racks of rotten bull and tagging it out, as that may look like I took trophy and left meat. He told me to hang in there and I will find another. As we all know if you kill enough animals, some will be lost. He stated that is why he doesn't bow hunt anymore. I will continue bowhunting knowing that it is a chance we take with big game animals. He told me residents get 3 elk tags in the area and the herd is artificially above objective because of the hay fed to them, which is paid for by the money I spend to hunt as a non resident. He also told me, which we all know, the rifle success is what really culls the herd, being around 50%. I think my choice to keep hunting, and then killing another bull and watching him fall in front of me will be a great learning experience for me on future elk hunts. It made me more critical on taking certain shot, put a lot of pressure on aiming small/missing small, and reassured me that animals as big as elk can go down extremely quick and easy with a well placed arrow. Now instead of going into next season thinking about a lost bull on my last try, I can put the same focus on my first attempt. I understand all sides of this argument and was on the fence myself of what to do. Even if you are the keep hunting type, loosing a bull really takes the wind out of your sails.
Here was my brothers bull form our first day. Not a drop of blood but found the elk piled up after 60 yards. After looking for my bull for 2 days we passed by him 4 day old carcass to see what to look for as far as birds, coyotes, or how bad smell was. Nothing had touched it and not a bird around. Everything was intact and fresh smelling because of the cold weather. It was high 40s in day and low 20s at night. That was pretty discouraging as we were hoping my bull would start stinking soon to help us find it.
So...you found your bull ?
If I am sure I killed it, I would punch my tag, or only hunt for a second chance at that same animal. I hunted a piece of property where another guy was bowhunting and he hit a deer and couldn't find it, then hit a second buck with the same results. He ended up killing a decent buck, and the land owner found his other two. I hunted there for a few years and only shot one buck. Because of the other "hunter" I was told he wasn't letting anyone hunt anymore! I guess I feel a tag doesn't allow you to just keep killing. Now if there is evidence or a great chance I didn't kill him I would keep hunting, but the question was Fatal shot. Kevin
Complete BS on the "forestry official" that you said earlier was a "forestry worker". You took a guy's opinion and ran with it. A real warden can tell in a heartbeat if an animal was just taken for antlers or found later. Wouldn't matter either way if he was wearing your tag.
Learn and keep hunting after a serious effort. I've made two nonfatal "meat" shots in my bowhunting so far (upper leg and brisket) and both of those I was disgusted enough with myself and my confidence was shaken enough that I didn't hunt for a couple days even though I knew the deer wasn't going to do as a direct result of my shot. After my mental game was back however I kept hunting. Mistakes and bad luck happen and I think it is a personal decision with how an individual handles it. I think wounding 2 or 3 shows a lack of skill or preparedness in myself or my equipment so I would never do it and keep hunting.
I hit a whitetail with a unique rack 2 years ago that I was certain was dead. Great blood trail running about 400 yards, I kept thinking that I should see him piled up. We ended up tracking him up a hill where the blood got thin and found an empty bed with some blood in it. I was totally discouraged and felt like there was no chance that this buck could survive. Two weeks later I started getting pictures of him again and he's still on the farm. He got a lot bigger the last 2 years and I hope for another shot at him, but it was a lesson to me that a "no doubt fatal shot" doesn't always turn out to be fatal. For what it's worth this was a pass-through behind the shoulder. I think it ended up being a little high and when he turned may have only caught 1 lung. Either way, he is still alive.
I think if you give it all you have trying to recover the animal then do what feels right. I for sure think that a complete diagnosis needs to be done on why the animal wasn't recovered (bad shot, rushed shot, deflection, etc). Unless you are going to completely give up hunting then I think that you should continue to hunt with the loss in mind and try to improve any future harvest attempts. I think a big part of a good life is learning from your mistakes and hunting is no different.
I say quit hunting for the remainder of the season if you hit and wound an animal and quit for life if you miss one completely - or hug a tree for 9 days and resume hunting.
My personal opinion is if i stick an animal whether i find him or not i am done hunting. It is not illegal for me to continue hunting but i believe in harvesting one animal, recovered or not.
Do everything you can to try and find it, but when you believe you've exhausted all avenues - go hunting.
It's a matter of conscience. You're the only one that really knows when you've done everything you can to recover that elk. In the end, you don't have to feel good about it, just learn something from it and move on.
"If you can't find them how do you know it was fatal? You only know it was fatal when you find them dead or see/hear them die. Until then, it's all speculation."
That is a delusional statement made by someone looking to justify something in their own mind. that is fine..........so long as they admit it. it's ok to keep hunting. it is ok to stop hunting, but don't embarass yourself with lies and justifications. it is not necessary.
A seasoned hunter knows what will kill and animal 98% of the time and what may not. He won't make a decision to hunt or stop based on the 2% chance that the animal will survive or his eyes deceived him on where the arrow hit............he will make it based on other factors if he is honest.
you run an arrow broadside through an animal anywhere halfway down between back line and belly line and he has a death sentence whether you find him or not.
finding an animal is not what kills it any more than not finding him keeps him alive.
Seriously, my experience had been that the only thing that eases the sting of losing an animal is killing another one. Look for the wounded animal as hard as you can, if not successful hit the reset button and get on with your life.
Statistically speaking, if you track an animal until it quits bleeding...it lives. Peroid. Keep hunting.
Bou' bound
Shut the bleep up! If you think you're cute being saucy, well then goodie goodie for you.
One of the dumbest damn idiodic things anyone can do is a lame copy and paste of someone else's post only to contradict what they're saying. Grow up, my hell!
Thread owner, feel free to delete if you wish.
HDE - I think he was agreeing with you when he said 98% of the time you know and 2% you don't. In other words he said he really doesn't know.:-)
I pulled the 98% / 2% out of my ass for effect, but strongly believe that experienced hunters, on most archery shots, have a very good idea of where the arrow hit AND if they have even basic insight into the anatomy and the phisiology of the animal know in their heart if that animal will or will not die as a result of the wound.
for seasoned guys and situations above, the thinking of " I did not find it thherefore i don't know if it is going to die" is akin to saying "i have to actaully run my car head-on into a bridge abuttment and 80 MPH to know it will kill me"
I respectfully disagree with some that say if an animal quits bleeding its alive. A have and know people that have found animals that died within minutes of but were farther than 100 yards from the end of the blood trail. Not to even mention infection. A few years ago I shot my biggest buck at 30 yards, there was no visible limp or anything when he came by but after finding him I rolled him over and his off side rear end was about gone. Meat exposed was green and all his meat reaked. He had been shot with a rifle 5 days earlier and I can't imagine he would have lived.
And who thinks wolves are actually harder on elk than hunters?
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=show_thread&om=15984&forum=DCForumID12&omm=0
Body cavity hit = dead animal. It is very difficult to run a sharp arrow through the body cavity without severing a major blood vessel and/or severing an organ. If the animal does not die from blood loss or organ failure he will likely develop a sever infection from the wound and eventually die from that. It makes us feel better to hope that maybe the animal did not die when we make an exhaustive search and fail to locate the dead body.
10 or better, your comment do not offend me. I know bow site is another Facebook for bowhunters. It will have serious bowhunters and not so serious. People will give great advice and input and some will push negative opinions. It is all taken with a grain of salt. I know people who don't hunt or do hunt but never get action will be quick to say quit after losing an animal, because they know thats they're only chance probably. My guess is some guys would say quit on a 12 day backpack elk hunt in the Mountains before it was half way through with out ever getting an opportunity at an elk. Just by hunting and hanging heads at my house I offend people everyday, I don't see eye to eye wight hem obviously.
I got the comments I expected and was just curious what the overall perspective on this issue was. By silent browsing bow site for years, I can tell who the serious bowhunters are and am more interested in what they have to say than a person who chimes in one time about being offended. I made my personal decision and completely happy with my choice. Thanks for the input.
I'm not a meat hunter, I hunt for the sport, this happened to me once, I punched my tag and started shooting for the next year. oz
I've found broadheads in 4 deer personally. And a blazer vane that looked brand new as I butchered another (we had to look hard to find the scar where the neck and shoulder meet.) One of the broadheads was lodged in shoulder from the INSIDE. One in the spine, two in the outside scapula, one where it meets the joint.
Good hits animals go down fast. If not, well, it wasn't that good of a hit no matter what the eyes saw. Good enough maybe, but if that animal is still alive even a few minutes later, surely didn't "hit him perfect!"
Hemorrhage is the greatest percentage cause of death in archery as well as the fastest IMO. Pneumothorax (collapsed lung) is another and vital organ damage, infection, etc. on down the line.
Lungs are not balloons that pop when you nick them. If you do a CSI and they are "deflated" it is because the chest cavity has lost it's "vacuum" do to sucking air in through a wound. (Pneumothorax) But not all chest wounds do this, hide, fat, meat can plug the wound.
Lungs are mostly just tissue with a good many vessels in it. But the outer lobes especially are much thinner tissue and much smaller and fewer vessels. "hit him right behind the shoulder" means you likely hit the outer lobes of lung. IF the blood clots and bleeding stops before a fatal amount is lost, healing begins.
Plenty of lung shot animals survive. Far more yet survive that folks would stand on their head and swear they hit lungs when they didn't. (See: The Void Files...)
I think it was a Maryland (?)study that collared some deer in a controlled hunt to come up with archery wounding rates. I think the recovery rate for all hits was in the mid to high 80% range. Of the 11 collared deer wounded and "lost" 8 were later found to have survived the wounds.
Again, gut shots are nearly always fatal not because of the injury, but of the resulting internal infection.
Archery wounds don't have the trauma or massive tissue damage that gun wounds do. Scalpel sharp wounds actually heal very well with low tissue damage and low infection. We've always said "if they can get to it and lick it...." keep the wound clean, they've got a good chance.
I will look until I feel like the meat is no good at which point I will continue hunting. There is nothing that puts a dark cloud on a perfectly good hunt like a wounded elk. It's an imperfect weapon and sometimes mistakes are made in the heat of the moment. My wife covers my business and runs the household of 3 kids while I run around the woods the month of September so her freezer is filled with high quality protein. I have a lot of motivation to continue hunting.
Before I moved out west I had a lab that could get the job done. I was in hunting leases(clubs) in Georgia and Alabama where he got some practice every year. I recovered a lot of deer with him that had solid hits with little if any blood trails that would have not been recovered without him. Outside of Arizona the logistics of having a dog on a high country elk hunt are impractical. In my experience most of them can do it once they understand the game and a good dog will deliver peace of mind whether you find the animal or not.
I'd say some VERY experienced hunters thought this one was dead.....
Happens far more than people think. But if you never find it, you really never know. Tough critters.
10orbetter I never did say I quit the search to watch football. I said after I had given my best and thrown in the towel on the search, I had to leave the woods to clear my head before hunting again. I didn't feel like hunting another bull yet. If I was a resident, probably would have gone back to work for a week and came back to try and smell him out. But I was on an 11 day backpack trip then flying back to Hawaii.
TD, for the steep angle of the shot on that thread, that was a pretty high hit on the bull. I am impressed that it was still strong though, but I would definitely think that would be a lost bull if it died with that shot. Like I said, If there is a 50/50 chance it lived or died, I have a hard time telling myself it lived to make me feel better. I know where the arrow needs to be for a quick recovery and it was my fault for not putting it there when I know I can
My first bull 4 years ago, I hit high and penetrated about 10 inches. Tracked him with little blood, probably bleeding internally only, and by his track down hill for about 300 yards. Lost all blood but found him and hour later grid searching. He cut right at the bottom, then climbed back up another 50 yards and laid under a tree. Some could have said he lived if I never recovered.
We're not talking just wounds here. Grazing a back putting it through high on the hams hitting a leg having an arrow stopped in the near shoulder blade are wounds that animals certainly can survive.
But when the wound in question is a complete pass through anywhere from 6 inches forward of the tail to 6 inches back of the brisket an animals not going to survive that very often. And a lot of those animals are not found in that doesn't mean they lived
Not saying if not found they lived. Saying not found you don't know. Can give all the odds and percentages a person wants.... but don't know 100% until it's found, dead or alive.
Again, if it was truly, factually a good hit.... it will be a short trail. I know on deer if you haven't found it inside 100 yards could be in for a long long day. Elk can go farther faster, but if not inside 200 it was not a good hit. A long trail.... well then the subject gets to being was it good enough. "But I hit it perfect!" Or maybe they hit "the void".... heheheheh....
Pat thought that bull was dead. "Smoked him" were the words in the video. I'd say he's put a few animals on the ground and knows the situation better than 99.9% do.
Sometimes the angles, the movement, the excitement, bone deflection, whatever, the hit is not where/what we thought. Have found several animals where the hit was not anything like I remembered seeing. I hear all the time "double lunged him! perfect shot!" 500 yards later and sign down to pindrops on your hands and knees every 30-40 feet.... no. May have even hit fairly close to where you wanted to, but did not hit where you SHOULD have. Clearly did not do near the kind of damage you thought you did, not by a long shot. Enough damage??? Maybe. Maybe not. The longer that animal survives.... the better his odds get.
Pat's hit wasn't a flesh wound, he took out one lung on what may have been a deflection off a rib, who knows. The bull not only lived but was chasing cows again shortly after.
It has been stated here that an arrow in the body cavity is a dead animal. That is far from the truth. It's been proven incorrect many times over and seen it with my own eyes.
808, my apologies. Sorry to hijack the thread, but the survivability element is pretty interesting to me. Tough creatures. The ethics of it, not so much. There are those who think because you're holding a bow with wheels on it makes you unethical. And a handful of those same folks wound game on a pretty regular basis but rationalize it away as can be human nature.
What someone decides to do about the situation they find themselves in really isn't my concern. The greatest thing about bowhunting is we aren't out there to live up to anyone's notion of why or how to go about it. The person holding the bow makes his decisions for himself. That's how it should be.
I don't care what the law says. My personal feeling is if you draw blood and don't find your animal you should consider your hunt over. That is what I wish the law was also. Just because you make or are a bad shot why should you be able to take an opportunity from someone else?
All truly good hits result in short trails. A lot of deadly hits don't. A lot of "I thought it was a good hit" don't.
In my experience the most commonly misdiagnosis of a "killshot" that defies logic is just a backstrap hit.Pass through and a scalded dog sprint has fooled more than the average bear.
Especially when most bowhunters taking the field don't understand just how low the spine is.
If you haven't made a mistake then you haven't hunted long enough and to say it will never happen again is as good as tempting fate. I think some of the greatest growth comes from these low points. I don't make a habit of wounding elk so I don't see a problem with continuing the hunt after an adequate search. On the positive side of things I have experienced some of my greatest growth as a hunter in the pits of despair after wounding an animal...lots of lessons to be learned. There will always be those that grow with mistakes and those that don't.
I have killed a few elk and found old arrows in them from years past. I recovered a arrow from the spine of my bull 3 years ago. It was 18 inches of arrow with a 3 blade muzzy. It was along the inside if the ribs into the spine. They must have shot him on a upward angle from below while he was above on a steep hill. Arrow took out a lung and buried in the spine. It was a very old bull when I killed him and he was just fine. The arrow was all encased in scar tissue and bone. You think you killed it you might have you might not. A gut wound is bad but a marginal chest hit they can recover.
Whether to keep hunting or not (provided it is legal) becomes a personal question that each hunter has to answer for himself based on his or her own code of ethics.
Questions that come up in my mind;
1) After an exhaustive search, you continue to hunt, kill a bull, and then later find your first bull. Do you turn yourself in for killing two bulls?
2) You find your bull after a long search. The meat is spoiled but you punch your tag and you keep the antlers. Would a warden cite you for wanton waste of game meat, failure to have proof of sex naturally attached to carcass where applicable, etc. etc.?
I have always wondered what happens in these situations...
Horniac
Ive been reading some of the posts and can say some here are either greedy or foolish or both.I know a bit more than the average joe when it comes to tracking wounded game from bears to moose,elk,deer of several species.One thing thats for certain dont fool yourself-if you wound an elk/deer/moose that animals chances of survival are minimal at best-predators/winter and with elk sometimes herd bulls will kill a weak bull.If an animals blood trail ends that doesnt mean he will live-(foolish statement)He could be bled out inside or blood pressure is so low hes not bleeding as well.Will he live-i doubt it. Continueing to kill another bull after passing an arrow through the body of another bull in my opinion is hard on the resource and should be illegal.In my opinion no one should be flinging arrows at animals they cant identify a target on-Yes thats for TBM.If everyone condones these actions than the one bull limit becomes subjective and management of the harvest becomes difficult.If you pass through the body,your done--exhaust a search and if you dont find it its your problem--not the next bull you sees problem!Think about it.
This isnt a matter of (its bow hunting-things will go wrong)its a matter of how the responsible hunter acts after the error is made.Clean miss keep trucking,through the body(you likely killed that animal now or later)All of us that spend alot of time around bow hunting see woundings-My experience is that on predators the survival rate is higher(mainly because they can live longer without food,they can clean the wound,and they are not pursued by predators as much as a food source.Wounded cervids(deer species)Cant often clean the wound,are a food source for predators and will be hunted harder when weakened.They are also often pushed out of the herd and or killed by more dominant animals.Predators survive 50% of the time and Cervids-5-10% at best whether it takes a day or a month wounds to cervis are death sentences.
I'm guilty of wounding a bull this year (my first archery bull hunt). We found a bull out in the grass flats. He was miles from any trees, and looked like he had been running for days. We got around him and belly crawled up to a knoll that couldn't have been taller than 3-4 feet. My caller peeked over the top and told me he was coming to the left of the knoll. I drew back as soon as I saw his antlers. I held on him until my buddy told me the yardage (63 yards), and stopped him with a cow call. As soon as I let the arrow go, the bull had seen us and dropped. I hit him perfect left to right, but was too high. He bled good for 200 yards, and then nothing. My arrow made a complete pass through and was stuck in the dirt behind him. The arrow had meat, fat, and a little blood on it. We followed him for 5 miles, through nothing but grass waiting for him to bed down. He finally reached the trees and climbed to the top of a big hill, and bedded down. We gave him a few hours, and he never showed any signs of injury. We left him over night and came back the next day. I found him again the next day but could never get any closer than 200 yards. I shot him on day 10 and hunted him the last 4 days of the hunt. I am happy to say that on day 4 he acted like nothing had happened really. He was grazing and bugling like he had not been shot. I pray he survives and has no serious injuries due to my shot. I'm sorry to report that I injured this bull, but that's what happened and I can't bring myself to lie about the situation. All I know is after it happened I instantly knew that I was going to give up the rest of my hunt to find this bull dead or alive, or not at all. Here is a picture of the bull after I followed him for 3 miles, just a mile or two before he went up the hill in the back ground that had trees on it. It's a horrible picture, but a picture none the less.
"Predators survive 50% of the time and Cervids-5-10% at best whether it takes a day or a month wounds to cervis are death sentences. "
Wound studies and my own experience contradicts that statement.
The real issue that needs addressed is the poor penetration.
and that is an issue that has been around since the dawn of time.....................
Genesis x2. Again.
Powell... offhand I would say yours is the classic case of backstraped and thinking it was fatal. If indeed correct with being good left and right but clearly higher than you wanted.....anything under the spine is high lungs. No way does a TRUE forward or up the leg high dbl lung go that far. If hit back some, high dbl lung often catches a major artery under the spine and they go down in spectacular fashion within seconds.
That hit on your bull I would say as an internet opinion is a very high percentage, as in nearly always, survivable. You will never find that bull dead during season anyway. And a good many will swear they hit it "perfect". The spine is far lower than most realize, especially the more forward in the chest you get.
Seen several that actually did hit a bit over the mid-center and slid up a rib and over the spine. The eyes saw the hit, but not where the broadhead went. To add to the effect the bright fletching angles down as it's going through leaving the impression the hit was lower yet. These are things that almost never happen out of treestand angles, so a great number of bowhunters aren't aware of it..... but pretty regular occurrence from the ground.
Everyone has one...............
genisis please read my post...It says arrow passed through the body,we are not talking about hair cuts.I have no way to validate your knowledge of survival on wounded cervids but i can speak for my own.We will have to respectfully disagree.
Is this where if I type the word cervid I lose? :)
Seriously though,I read every word.That's why I posted,because young bowhunters need to understand what a very large number of bowkilled whitetails teaches.
It isn't 19/20 arrow wounded deer die.......
If you need to validate that I would recommend respectfully expanding your sample size
