Would u take this shot !! Louis
DJ
Today, I'm comfortable with that shot to 25 yards, but at 33, I'd hold.
ELKDIY's Link
http://youtu.be/OkeL6xISFac
BB's is at a bit tougher angle.... smaller target, but a killer if you make the shot. 15-20 yards and could hit a golf ball all day. Maybe a tennis ball.
There is a no man's land. BB's would be a much easier shot if he were more head on. A bit more laid off and I'm callin' no joy.
elkmo
I felt confident. It was the exact distance that circumstances caused me to practice at the most. The bull must've reacted to the shot because my arrow hit about two inches to the right and almost five inches higher than my aim point. Replaying the shot in my head, I would still swear that he didn't move til after hit and that the arrow hit exactly where aimed.
The first part and the last part of the bizarre blood trail attested to the lethality of the shot, but the weird middle part of the bloodtrail might make me hesitant in the future.
So, I don't know.
I taken all sorts of quartering to shots on deer. All resulted in a very quick death. But, they were close and unaware of my presence. I'd take it on elk too if given the opportunity. But, it'd have to be close for the same reasons. A dang elk can move a lot at the sound of release. So, if they too were in a range where moving wasn't likely or going to affect arrow impact to the point of a good shot ending up being a bad shot, I'm sending one into the boiler room.
In other words, if they play along nicely, it is the most lethal shot in bowhunting. If they are in a state of mind or a situation that isn't likely, they would have to be really close. A tuned up WV whitetail would have ZERO problems getting out of the way of any arrow at 20 yards. Much less 32. That I can tell you from personal experience. God Bless
Recovery didn't happen. Blood on the shoulder looked to be in the right place. Followed blood for 125 yards and got dark. Went in the next morning and the rain set in so the blood disappeared. Had a good idea which direction he headed. Looked for two days with no luck.
I normally shoot the buzzcut and wished like hell I had them in the quiver. Got caught up in all the hype with the ulmer and thought I would try them. No more. I do believe the buzzcutt would penetrated more. My thinking is when the blades opened on the ulmer and if it did get into the blade that it more than likely broke them off. Just the shits to lose and elk of that caliber. Hopefully he lived. A guy will never know I guess.
Any ideas?
If it was more straight on and you hit left of the dot I'd internet guess you one lunged him at best. The poor penetration, you were getting onto some good bones I'd bet, clavicle and ribs start to line up inside the shoulder like a picket fence. Good chance of a deflection as well. That head I don't have any experience, but bones are not the strong point of a mech head for sure.
Frontal shots you forget about lungs. The bundle of arteries over the heart is the aim point, a bit low and you're into heart. You may or may not hit one or both lungs depending one the angle. But hit that spot and it won't matter. Normally going down fast and in spectacular fashion... if they went that far that spot was not hit.
My bow/arrows will make that kill if I can put the arrow right there yes
Passed on a nice bull last year, facing me at 40ish yards. Guide said "shoot", I told him "too far."
Give me a facing target at less than 20 yds, I'll prob shoot if it feels right.
City what are you shooting for heads this year?
Apel's Link
Right or left of center and how much all depends on how much angle off of straight on you have. If dead straight on you would aim dead center. If the animal has some angle to it and you shoot for center you stand a good chance of missing your spot. Just putting an arrow into the front of the chest is not the goal. It's an area, a spot the size of a grapefruit maybe on elk. And that spot is several inches inside the animal, center of it's chest.
Have to visualize the spot INSIDE you want to hit, not the outside. The outside is where you worry about bones.
Look at all the pics above - there is a decent size area to slip an arrow into
I have taken the shot under 10. And I've passed it at 15-20 when elk was hyper-alert Fun stuff
Bake
Right or left of center and how much all depends on how much angle off of straight on you have. If dead straight on you would aim dead center. If the animal has some angle to it and you shoot for center you stand a good chance of missing your spot.
OK, that explains city's shot placement. Never really thought about taking a frontal shot, so this is an education. Thanks for the explanation.
rut nut sitka deer not a mule deer to the right is were I aimed its a 12 ring on critters That deer was dead in seconds look at were arrow is going to end up what it passes thru , Placing arrow more left and its a one lung ,,, !!
Sorry city- you'll have to excuse my ignorance on western critters! ;-) OK- I see the rationale for shot placement now, thanks to you and TD.
Would I take that shot? Probably not. I don;t think I have the ability to shoot that acurately(especially in the horizontal plane). When i'm off, it tends to be left to right. Where you placed that shot, if it was an inch to the right, I'm thinking it wouild have glanced off the outside of the ribs. I would not have confidence in that shot(for me), except maybe at point blank range. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that do, and would, just not me.
Antelope at 10 yds. (note blood on rock in front)
Both died in seconds and within sight.
Although, I believe there is a fair amount of luck involved with frontal shots at distances further than point blank. The luck factor tends to increase with distance. Any elk or deer can move a lot in 1/2 second from the time an arrow leaves a bow to contact.
I like that the quarters are generally unharmed and there tends to be less meat loss than broadside into or through the front limb musculature.
I'm just never sure exactly where to hold and I'm not about to guess. Broadside or quartered away I know if I hit where I'm aiming there is a zero chance that animal will live. I don't know where that spot is with that shot. Bad things can happen, but they are a lot more likely to happen taking shots like that....
12yards
You don't need any more energy for that shot than any other....you just have to hit a smaller target.....If I would take the shot, I wouldn't hesitate with your set up
On a broadside shot if you miss left or right you could hit guts or shoulder blade. The gut shot animal will die and there's a good chance you won't find it. The shoulder blade hit animal will most likely be fine.
On a frontal shot if you miss left or right you could hit either shoulder and the animal will probably recover just fine.
So if you look at it that way, the odds of non-recovered fatal shot might be greater with a broadside shot.
The odds of a fatal but non-recoverable hit might actually be less with a frontal shot...
Have a great bow hunt. BB
Hunter calls in a bull. Bull comes in straight on and stops at close range. Hunter at full draw, bull looking for the elk, oblivious to the hunter. The hunter is waiting for the bull to turn but the bull stands until it gets nervous or smells the hunter and turns to bolt. Hunter cow calls to stop the bull. The bull stops 30 yards away quartering away on full alert. Fatigued hunter takes a hurried 30 yard shot at a bull on full alert. Bad things happen.
30?
Longer?
Looks about the same size to hit when the animal is standing broadside dont it?
Problem is, that bull will move out of the way in a hurry. I wouldn't take that shot past 15 yards if he's looking me in the eye, maybe 25 yards max if he's not looking at me.
8 Yards. I was kneeling and I aimed and hit just below where his windpipe entered chest. You can see the exit hole, just left of the fletching. The arrow was hanging out of him when he tipped over. (Which I witnessed) ~ 12 back from broadhead. You can see the bent spot, ~ where you see the lower wheel and bow touch in pic.
On his feet less than 20 seconds.
He threw blood when he whirled at shot.
Also, first animal I ever did gutless. Can't imagine how gross it would have been to gut him with arrow traversing that much inside real estate.
Since I mainly hunt tree stand for whitetails, shot doesn't present itself from the tree, IMHO.
I would take this shot at 15 yards or less on the ground at any hooved animal.
I'm pretty sure no sane man would want a quartering to shot over a broadside shot or a frontal shot over a broadside or quartering away shot.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it....don't really care what you do.....but don't sit here and try to tell me that it's just as good.....it's not and that is very well known among bow hunters.
The odds of bad things happening with frontal shots are higher.....nobody passes a broadside or quartered away shot....there are quite a few that would not take a frontal or quartered to shot....there is a damn good reason for that.
Yes, mostly ignorance. And that's okay....if you're not sure where to aim or don't feel comfortable with it, by all means, do not take the shot!
Personally, I would rather have a 10 yard frontal shot than a 30 yard broadside shot any day.
Exit Wound (under opposite leg)
He went about 100 yds. There are a lot of ways to kill an elk!
Best of Luck, Jeff
FWIW, the arrow is facing "South" in this photo. It entered in the neck, went straight down the trachea, through the great vessels above the heart, through the top of the heart, through the liver, stomach, intestines ... and the bottom round! It was actually just poking through the hide above the hock.
It refer to it as "The Rotisserie Shot" now.
Or the "Reverse Ham Blaster".
No bones were hit on this shot, so penetration was extreme.
Nice shootin' John!
Best of Luck, Jeff
But there is one made by Mtcountryboy (actually several by him) on which I totally disagree. Here's what he says in one of his posts.
"Straight on frontal is not the shot the op asked about....he asked about a hard quartering to shot...they're different I'm pretty sure no sane man would want a quartering to shot over a broadside shot or a frontal shot over a broadside or quartering away shot.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it....don't really care what you do.....but don't sit here and try to tell me that it's just as good.....it's not and that is very well known among bow hunters.
The odds of bad things happening with frontal shots are higher.....nobody passes a broadside or quartered away shot....there are quite a few that would not take a frontal or quartered to shot....there is a damn good reason for that."
Now I want to break down his statements and give my rebuttal!
First: HIs take--- Straight on frontal is not the shot the op asked about....he asked about a hard quartering to shot...they're different
My take---Whither the animal is straight on or quartering to you makes very little difference, providing you are close and know where to aim! And providing one understands that when the angle gets too sharp, there comes a point, where the window to the vitals, become too small to chance. The same thing can be said about a sharp quartering away angle.
Second His take--- I'm pretty sure no sane man would want a quartering to shot over a broadside shot or a frontal shot over a broadside or quartering away shot.
My take---What you said, might be true to a book educated bowhunter, but its far from the truth, to bowhunters with on the ground and in the field experience. The fallacy of the frontal shot has long been proven wrong and will continue to gain acceptance as a deadly and ethical shot in bowhunting.
There are still a number of guys, like yourself, who truly believe, not from experience, but from rhetoric that the frontal or quartering to shot is nothing but a high risk shot that should never be taken. That is a fallacy that is fast falling!
And there are a lot of sane men, who would prefer a close frontal shot, to a broadside or quartering away shot, because they understand that the risks are most likely lower that something will go wrong, and the blood trails are usually far shorter and much better defined!
Third: His take---.but don't sit here and try to tell me that it's just as good.....it's not and that is very well known among bow hunters.
My take---If this shot is taken from a close distance, it not only is a good, but in many cases far better than a broadside shot. And there are good reasons I say that. Most understand that frontal shots require you to be close. Many broadside shots are taken at great distances, because so many think the vital is so much bigger that its okay to shoot 60-80 yards. The chance for error increase dramatically as the distance to the animal increases.
And an animal straight on will turn away from the shooter. That's not the case with a broadside animal. Most broadside animals will spoke in the direction their facing, thus causing the arrow to hit farther back. Gut shot animals don't live through or heal from that type of wound and many are never recovered. So many times the frontal shot is much more deadly and high percentage than is the broadside shot. And quartering away shots up the odds of only one lung being hit, and of poor blood trails, and thus many lost animals. That's just a fact that many don't want to understand.
Fourth: His take---The odds of bad things happening with frontal shots are higher.....nobody passes a broadside or quartered away shot....there are quite a few that would not take a frontal or quartered to shot....there is a damn good reason for that.
My take---The odds of bad things happening with close frontal shots are not higher, but rather lower. The reason many bowhunters pass on the fontal shot is the for the same reason you pass on it. Someone or some book told them along their bowhunting journey that frontal shots "should never be taken with a bow", and they bought into it and became disciples of that erroneous rhetoric.
I would like to invite you Mtcountryboy to explain to us why the broadside shot is so much better, as you say there is a damn good reason. I would very much like to better understand your reasoning. Thanks in advance.
And have a great bow hunt. BB
They were all within 20yds, all fell withing sight, all had extreme blood trails.
Isnt that what we as bowhunters strive for?
I am one that prefers a 15yd frontal shot over a 30 broadside shot, and I didnt read that in some book.
The broadside shot is NOT a better shot
The frontal is NOT a high risk shot
I think we can all agree that this is at best a marginal shot and if you miss to the right at all, there will be potential heartbreak and at least a long, long tracking job... Been there, done that...
We just had a great conversation about it and I hope that I taught him something that my experience taught me...
;-)
That guy is either going to be disappointed or he'll grow to be one hell of a tracker.
I think this is one of the great benefits of Bowsite ... it's here that I learned to "refine" my idea of what a good broadside shot is ... and where I learned the frontal shot ... and where I learned the gutless method.
Heck, if it weren't for Bowsite, I wouldn't have used the gutless method this year on my frontal-shot cow!
I agree with Cnelk ... A 30 yard broadside is less preferable than a 15 yard frontal (from on the ground, elk-sized critter.)
I think people do rightly worry about the bone structure of the animal -- particularly the sternum, which is a definite impediment to an arrow. But learn the anatomy. And ... you don't have to avoid ribs in the front any more than you have to avoid them broadside.
The thing to remember is that most shots are not frontals or broadside, but rather quartering shots. And when they are quartering shots, one needs to realize that and aim in an area that the arrow path will travel through the best part of the vitals. In the photo to which I am referring it is very important that you move your aiming point very far to the left. I would want my arrow in a line just up the front of the front leg (red dot) and would not what to hit any farther back than the black dot.
Have a great bow hunt. BB
The red dot indicates where I would like my arrow to hit and the black dot is as far back as I would want my arrow to enter his body.
Have a great bow hunt. BB
At 19 yards it is amazing how big of a target the front of a large bull actually is.
I had already killed a bull several years ago with a frontal shot prior to discovering the Bowsite and having read all the information on the Bowsite over the years since then, this shot was a no-brainer for me.
From an anatomical standpoint, BB's shot placement is what makes sense to me and it's what I use, trying to put the arrow right over the top of the front of the heart to take out the great vessels and the larger vessels of the lungs.
I killed 3 big game animals last year, all with placement exactly where intended, all exactly as detailed by BB's recommendations. One quartered to, one quartered away, and one broadside.
The total distance run after the shot of all 3 animals was 112 yards combined and I watched all 3 of them fall.
If you cut even one of the great vessels, a large % of an animal's blood bleeds out in seconds, resulting in a crash in blood pressure, unconsciousness, and rapid death by exsanguination.
The frontal shot, just by means of missing the bones upon entry, puts the arrow through an area where it cannot miss the large veins and arteries. Even if you miss the heart, carotids, aorta, vena cava, pulmonary vein, and the pulmonary artery, (which is difficult if you cleared the bones in the first place) a slew of the largest lung veins and arteries cannot be avoided as there is a concentration of them the closer you are to the heart and less of them the farther away from the heart you get, as in the high and back broadside shot.
The larger these arteries, the faster the drop in blood pressure when cut and that makes the tracking so short. The shot farther back will bleed slower and relies more on double pneumothorax and collapse of the lungs/suffocation which is why, imo, you see a sick, but still living (albeit bedded/resting/panting) animal when one lung is hit, slowly bleeding to death in its bed if large vessels were missed in the posterior aspects of the lungs. This is why we give animals a mandatory 30 minutes. Because they might be resting, panting, but resting, slowly bleeding to death. Double pneumothorax is not a sure thing even with a pass through double lung shot. Exsanguination through a large lumen vessel that is severed is a sure thing.
Post-mortem on one of my deer this year revealed I severed the aorta 3 inches from the heart, shooting down out of a tree stand. I barely clipped the far side lung as the arrow exited low in the neck. The deer had blood spraying several feet into the air as it ran and was down in under 3 seconds.
The reason we shoot for the lungs, after all, is because of the concentration of vessels, and they are larger and more numerous anteriorly, and centrally.
I think of the lung vessels as "trees" with the trunks right by the heart. Hit the "top" of the tree, and all you are shooting is sticks. Hit the trunk, and ... TIMBER!
If kidneys were larger, we'd shoot for them ... they get about 20% of the cardiac output ... but, like the femoral arteries, what they have in "vitality" they make up for in being tough to visualize from the outside.
There's nothing terribly special about lungs -- other than their concentration of vessels. And they are "more special" the closer to the heart. But lungs, as IWA said above, work fairly well if they're not bleeding. Pneumothorax isn't guaranteed. It's not like a "balloon" that can be "popped" by piercing it "anywhere."
What to see animals drop in sight? Shoot big blood vessels. Anyone who has hit a femoral knows that. And the biggest concentration of big vessels is in the front of the chest.
But I think many folks' objection to the frontal shot stems from them worrying about the bone structure, not the lethality of the shot. The sternum is a problem, and the humerus, sometimes, too. But those can be visualized and accounted-for.
I guess I have just been "conditioned" all these years to wait for a broadside shot and that is what I am comfortable with. That sight picture just did not seem right! I'm sure it's just a mental thing. Maybe if I practiced the frontal shot more things would change?
Don't regret passing on that shot. Rather do that than get a bad result and spend hours looking for her in the dark! ;-)
Z Barebow's Link
For me, it comes down to studying deer/elk anatomy. Actual animal anatomy, not Rhinhart 3D targets.
One you understand animal anatomy, a hunter should picture where his/her arrow is/will travel on it path into the animal. Your aiming spot/impact point is the starting point.
In rutnut's example/description, the arrow would have exited in the sternum. Would he have hit lungs? Doubtful. We he have hit heart?. Maybe. Would have he hit the top of heart? Less likely. IMHO.
I am pretty sure a couple of recent responses are from hunters who know animal anatomy intimately. (IE I think they are veterinarians). Pay close attention to description of internal organs, skeletal structure, and vascular density.
See link for an example of where BigDan has killed his fair share of elk.
Z barebow its great to study animals anatomy but what good is that if a guy cant place the arrow there , 3d targets offer the best way a bow hunter can practice many different shot scenarios . Practice makes perfect .
I was also facing into a hill, so the deer was almost eye level(not completely, but the angle was almost negligible- might as well have been on the ground ;-)
What I was trying to say was the shot was good, but my sight picture was telling me not to shoot. In other words, the shot just did not feel right to me, so I passed.
My point is when it comes to 3D targets, it only matters where the arrow enters the "skin". Anything past skin deep doesn't matter, regardless of animal angle.. On real animals, it does matter. Compare gil-wy dot to BB's dot on the same elk. Which one would "score" better on a target? My guess is gil's.
However haphazardly, my point is guys practice on 3D animals with the same site picture time after time. When is the last time anyone shot a frontal shot on a hooved 3D animal on a 3D shoot? (IE Excluding turkeys and standing bears). I have been to 75-100 shoots in my life and I cannot think of one. How many times have we shot for score at deer/elk targets with poor "real life" side angles, knowingly aim off of where we would on a real animal? (Tons) If a 3D course was set up with a half dozen frontal deer and elk, how many shooters would bitch at the range captain and not even take the shot claiming it was unethical? (Because they are so conditioned to broadside sight picture) My theory is many guys continually shoot/practice broadside and various angles of broadside, shooting for the highest score. So when it comes to the real deal, they have a hard time aiming in the proper spot on a real animal. (IE Causing poor hits with arrow placement too far back)
Maybe bowhunters need to see the frontal site picture in practice more often, preparing them for real life situations. Just like you did in your 1st post.
I don't want to get sidetrack your thread because it is a good one and this topic needs to be revisited often. Thanks Lou!
Deadly for sure, but how anyone can say they would prefer a 15 yd shot frontal over a 15 yd Broadside is beyond me. Really? You prefer that narrow head on vs. the classic pick your spot right up the leg? Give me 15 yds broadside and 9-10 times that elk isn't getting out of sight
I did miss that the op was talking about smaller animals...my bad.....not sure if it's any better on smaller animals or not.
I've never taken it, but I've seen it go bad twice and work once, on elk...and I'll guarantee you one hit inside your square....nobody on this thread is talking about when it didn't work out.
I'm not saying it can't be done or that you shouldn't do it.....I'm saying it is a lower percentage shot and I don't need it that bad.
not trying to be egotistical.....I can't say it enough....I don't care what you do......a good ass shot is pretty deadly too but I'm not taking that either (even though I've seen it work out better than the frontals so far....not my shot, but was there when it happened and have heard countless stories of ass shot elk going down inside 150)
Lot of opinion being posted as fact....let me be clear that everything I've posted is opinion.
I don't even know what to say to someone who prefers frontals over broadside shots and don't feel I owe any explanation.
There is a kill shot no matter what angle an animal is standing to you.....so shoot.
With a calm hunter and a decent shot with a compound bow that shot should be automatic to hit the aiming point. the rest is actually know exactly the point you should be aiming for depending on the angles presented.
The teachings from just a few years ago were ONLY take a broadside, no matter what. (as opposed to the real old teachings from bowhunting legends of "get an arrow in it somehow...")
That has proven to be false time and time again. Only thing that REALLY matters and REALLY kills stuff is the sharp end of the stick cuts the very best stuff inside. That point is INSIDE and to get to the best of it requires a 3 dimensional visualization. (was gonna say 3D but scoring on those is 2D no matter what they want to call it....)
Folks can get hung up on a "spot" to aim for. That "spot" on the outside in reality is constantly moving and changing depending on the angle of the animal. The real "spot" to aim for is INSIDE the animal. The only thing you have to AVOID is major bones. Need to know exactly where both are.
The key is shooting for the right spot and MAKING that shot. Whether folks get "buck fever" and lose it. Or they don't feel comfortable enough to hit that softball 100% at whatever yardage. Or they aren't confident on where that spot is. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Better to pass a shot you feel isn't in the bag or isn't for you.
I didn't suggest ANYBODY would pass a 15 broadside.
BB said he'd prefer a frontal over broadside....
or maybe I misunderstood him when he said " the odds of bad things happening with close frontal shots are not higher, but rather lower"
I don't think I'm making too big of a leap to assume he'd take a shot that has lower risk of bad thing happening.
I don't care who takes any shot they are comfortable with.....you won't find me bitching about people taking 90 yard shots either.....I don't care what shots anyone takes....it's on them.
The kill zone is three times the size on a broadside shot BB.....that's why it's better.......I don't care if it's 5 yards or 90 yards....it's bigger so it's easier to hit.
I didn't suggest anyone take long range broadside shots either.......I didn't say anything about preferring a 60 yard broadside over a 15 frontal......I didn't say anything about taking 50-60 yard shots.
My question is.....why do you have to be so close to take a frontal?
My average on a five spot (20 yards) is 298 48X...with my hunting bow which is all I have....(that's 48 of 60 arrows hitting a quarter 10 hitting a tennis ball and 2 hitting a soft ball, for those that aren't familiar)
So how big is this kill zone?
should trad guys take this shot?
If so.....at what range?
15? 20?
my bow is damn near twice as fast and over twice as accurate as any normal trad bow......so why can't I damn near double the yardage?
Same time of flight and I'll bet I can shoot better groups at 40 yards that most trad guys can shoot at 15. (not taking anything from them....that is some hardcore hunting that I don't have the patients for)
If it's a good shot.....it's a good shot.....why shouldn't I take it at 30 or 40?
Because the animal is alert?
If he's not alert.....I have no problem hitting a grapefruit at 40....why shouldn't I shoot?
If he's alert....isn't it questionable even at 15-20 given that he only needs to move a couple inches to wound him?
how about jugular/ carotid artery shots? (just the head and neck sticking out from behind a tree....we've all been there.....pretty sure this is the next "it's okay" shot.....you just have to know where it is and hit it shot....they don't go far with this one)......and we'll have a bunch of pictures to prove that it works.....just can't take pics of the ones where it didn't.
my point is.....if I'm not comfortable with a shot at 40.....I'm not comfortable with the shot at 10.....the difference in my accuracy at those ranges is not enough to matter.....and for the most part, an animal with it's head up and facing you inside 20 yards knows your there....some jump....some don't.......I've found them to be jumpier inside 20 than they are at 40.....but then again most of my shots have been inside 20.
Wow!
". All I've read is they'd take a 15 yard frontal over a 30-40 yd broadside."
I guess we only read and see what we want to.
"Broadside shots ar overrated"
"And there are a lot of sane men, who would prefer a close frontal shot, to a broadside or quartering away shot, because they understand that the risks are most likely lower that something will go wrong, and the blood trails are usually far shorter and much better "
"My take---If this shot is taken from a close distance, it not only is a good, but in many cases far better than a broadside shot. "
Wow what?
Whats wow about not taking stupid shots?
If you have to be 10 yards away from something to hit it right with a compound bow.....imo.....you probably shouldn't be taking the shot. ....either that or you need some more trigger time.
instead of wow......why don't you answer the question?
Why is it okay to take the shot at 10-20 and not 30-40.....as if this is some magical distance? If the kill zone is smaller than a grapefruit it seems like a bad idea. If its bigger....why not shoot at 40 assuming the animal is relaxed and doesn't know your there.
I love all the judgement on this site.........I get criticized for having a different opinion.....that I clearly state is opinion.....and over preferring broadside shots over frontal shots!......the ego stroking around here is fn funny! IF you hear it enough you can justify just about anything....having others with the same opinion around you doesn't change what is.....it doesn't change reality.....it just boosts ego.....arguing that it's okay because if you miss he'll probably be just fine? WTF kind of talk is that......and btw a shoulder shot elk isn't just fine.....he might live....with a bh lodged in his shoulder bone......nice justification.
"Quartering away leaves bad blood trails" , "Quartering away is more likely to be a single lung hit"........bla bla bal......this is a bunch of crap....like i said a dozen times by now.....do whatever you want.....i don't care....I can't believe I allowed myself to get sucked into this, or that I am trying to defend myself over stating that broadside shots are better than frontals......THEY ARE BETTER....imho
And I'm real sure all those pics of dead animals with frontal shots were all inside twenty yards! yeah right. You fling enough arrows and eventually one will hit the right spot.......then you can take pics and "prove" your point.
You are taking my comments out of context.
I never “argued” that it’s okay because if you miss he’ll probably be just fine and I did not use it as justification for a frontal shot.
My comments were only meant as a comparison of the risks associated with a broadside shot compared to the risks associated with a frontal shot because you wrote that the odds of bad things happening with a frontal shot are greater.
Here are my comments you are referring to:
“On a broadside shot if you miss left or right you could hit guts or shoulder blade. The gut shot animal will die and there's a good chance you won't find it. The shoulder blade hit animal will most likely be fine. On a frontal shot if you miss left or right you could hit either shoulder and the animal will probably recover just fine.”
The point I was trying to make is that if you miss on a broadside shot you could hit guts. If you miss on a frontal shot you’re not going to hit guts. I think everybody would agree that hitting an elk in the guts is worse than hitting one in the shoulder. There’s a very good chance that the shoulder hit elk will have a full recovery. The gut shot elk WILL die.
I never said the shoulder hit was not bad but between the shoulder and guts it is the lessor of two evils. And you won’t hit guts with a frontal shot unless you pass through vital stuff first.
Please relax, slow down, read and comprehend.
As long as we’re exchanging opinions and having a calm rational discussion, I’ll expand on the gut shot topic.
A lot of people don’t realize how fast elk walk and they may take broadside shots at walking elk without stopping them. I’m guilty, been there, done that. What happens when you shoot at a walking elk and don’t stop them or compensate for their walking speed…? That’s right, you hit too far back. If you’re lucky you’ll hit the back of the lungs or maybe the liver and if you’re not so lucky you’ll hit guts. This is probably the #1 elk shooting mistake and the biggest cause of gutshot elk. Even if the elk is not walking and he moves or you just plain shoot too far back you can end up with a gutshot elk.
This isn’t going to happen with a frontal shot. You might miss but you won’t hit guts.
For example my bull in the photo above; I drew on him at the first opportunity as he was walking straight toward me. As he continued to walk toward me the target got larger and larger as he approached. No part of his body behind his shoulders including his guts ever entered my field of view. When he stopped/hesitated at 19 yards my 20 yard pin was settled calmly right where I wanted my arrow to hit. The rest was automatic. That bull was either going to walk right over me or bust out and there was zero chance of a gutshot with the shot I took.
You made the statement:
“And I'm real sure all those pics of dead animals with frontal shots were all inside twenty yards! yeah right. You fling enough arrows and eventually one will hit the right spot.......then you can take pics and "prove" your point.”
That’s a very cheap shot. My hunting buddy was standing directly behind me and witnessed the shot. I resent the implication that I am lying and unethically flinging arrows.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this statement:
“Why is it okay to take the shot at 10-20 and not 30-40.....as if this is some magical distance?”
Every shot has its limitations. If you’re okay with a 30-40 yard broadside shot why don’t you take it at 100, 150 or 200 yards?
I don’t believe that the frontal kill zone is smaller than a grapefruit but at 40 yards I would not take the shot because he’s facing/coming toward me and there’s a chance he will move closer, and closer is always better. If he turned broadside I would take the 40-yard broadside shot knowing that there is a risk of a gutshot if I miss. If he continues to move toward me and gets within 20 yards I will take the first shot he offers that I know I can kill him with and that includes a frontal shot.
It’s funny that some people have a problem with a frontal shot on an elk at less than 20 yards but may not have a problem with a 50-yard shot at an antelope or a 30-yard shot at a turkey. Which vital is smaller or has a greater chance of going bad…?
I never criticized you for having a differing opinion, I merely stated mine. It seems you are the one getting worked up over differing opinions. My opinions are based mainly on personal experience and somewhat on information I have seen and read. The majority of information shared on this site is opinion, take it or leave it but don’t take a difference of opinion personally.
You talk about all the judgment on this site but it seems like you’re dishing out your fair share…especially for a guy who doesn’t care…
Here's what you said:
"the difference in my accuracy at those ranges is not enough to matter"
How else were we to interpret that statement?
Midwest
Read the statement for what it says.....don't interpret.....it says there is a difference because there is a difference.....does not imply anything other than what it says.
you never answered my question.......Why is it okay to take the shot at 10-20 and not 30-40?
I'm not saying I should take the shot.....I'm saying I shouldn't but obviously for different reasons.
Let me also be clear....and i've stated before.....the shot most of my comments were made about is a quartering to shot, which is what the op asked about....not a straight frontal....and imo....these are different shots....it shrinks an already smaller kill zone and depending on leg position, can make it difficult to know exactly where those shoulders are......all opinion.
The second pic that midwest posted with red dot is not a shot I want at all. that dot is just too close to the shoulder for me and if the leg was further forward might even be a shoulder shot....i could be wrong but I butcher all my own animals and have a pretty good idea where that shoulder is and that dot is pretty close.....that's why I said I don't have 100% confidence in where to hold...I got a good idea, but just a little left or right and it's not a good shot.
More than likely if you have a little patients and have an animal inside twenty in that position that doesn't know your there.. you'll get a better shot....like I said....I've passed that shot several times....that doesn't mean I always let him go.
imo...that is about the worst position a standing elk can be in aside from straight away.....again not saying it can't or shouldn't be done.....but I do believe there is a damn good reason not to take it....and it's not ignorance....it's about as bad of a shot as you can ask for.....like I said before....there is always a kill shot....I just don't like that one.
"My take---If this shot is taken from a close distance, it not only is a good, but in many cases far better than a broadside shot. And there are good reasons I say that. Most understand that frontal shots require you to be close. Many broadside shots are taken at great distances, because so many think the vital is so much bigger that its okay to shoot 60-80 yards. The chance for error increase dramatically as the distance to the animal increases." The entire quote stresses distance. Precision.
"providing you are close and know where to aim! " again stressing distance. I counted three more references to "close".... all in just a single post by BB.
Personally I don't hold out for any particular shot. I take the first GOOD opportunity given me on a shot that I know I can make. Broadside, quartering away.... close frontal. Very often that's the only GOOD opportunity you are going to have.
My only frontal shot on elk was on a cow. Killed her and a good many other animals with it. I think 15 yards or so is my longest I've taken. Don't take it all that often, but have never lost an animal to it. Folks aren't going to get much traction with me trying to say 100% isn't good enough, still too risky.
This shot comes up for elk more often because if calling they can come straight in looking for the caller. Can't speak for anyone else, but this is usually how it goes for me when the shot comes up.
This isn't an elk (but he was screaming like he thought he was) I was kneeling in the rain after a quick 100 yard stalk/scramble, thought this was going to be a broadside shot at about 18 yards, he goes behind a tree, I draw, he takes a 90 at the tree and walks right at me. He sees something he doesn't like and stops.... at about 5 or 6 yards. Too late..... guess instead of a frontal shot I could claim self defense....
Can't speak for anyone but myself....like I've said all along. Distance to shoot an animal is a personal decision. For me, I would only take this shot at close range because, unlike you, I'm more accurate at close range.
Same reason I only shoot turkeys at close range....smaller targets require more accuracy.
The amount of time it takes an animal to move once the shot is made makes this shot a very range one.