Contributors to this thread:
What a shame some hunters have no clue how sensitive wild animals are to their environment and when there is a change, ie hunting seasons, they react and retreat to a survival mode of varying levels by change their normal patterns.
Twenty years ago I would hike in 3 miles and still find undisturbed elk still out during shooting light and always make sure I camped over a 1/4 mile from where the elk wanted to feed. As more and more hunters moved into the area, camping next to the meadows, calling, making loud noises in camp, and using fires, the elk responded and changed.
They changed as I hardly see an elk unless it is in the last 10 minutes of shoot light or in the first hour of day light and hardly if never in the open meadows. And the majority of the bulls will turn tail if you bugle at them.
An example of "no clue" , I talked with three bow hunters on my way out on the last day of the Colorado season. Yea, they had had a great time, camped right next to the elk meadow, had a good fire, tilted the bourbon bottle a few times and even sat in camp and challenged a bull by calling and bull screaming to the bull, who was bugling on the next ridge a few hundred yards away.
The hunters response was, "oh, the elk do not seem to care we are here". We heard them bugling all night."
Oh really! None of these hunters had ever killed an elk.
Anyway, great care is needed when hunting and camping and if needed camp farther down wind and actually hid from the elk while camping, because within a day or two, they will know you are around and they will change their patterns.
Remembers, these are full time elk and we are only part time hunters!
My best, Paul
I have to agree with you Paul. I always do what I call a mini impacted camp.. Usually I'm in bed 30 mins after coming back to camp at night. Hoping to get 7/8 hours of sleep before morning starts off.. As for fire only if things get wet and if cold do I start one. I like to be a tad farther away than you do. But that all depends on the situation and I'm sure you know what I mean there. As for calling from camp only in the morning and again the situation dictates that. eD
no wonder archery success rates are in the single digits percentage wise. most hunters I see hunting any big game animal don't pay attention to the wind or how they enter an area and they are doomed from the start besides ruining the area for others who may be hunting there. I guess its their god given right as an American on public land to be a douche bag.
Anywhere I camp in elk country is a possibility of "disrupting" the elk. Even though I don't have one every night, smoke from a fire has a minimum if any impact. I guess as long as someone doesn't impact my hunt negatively on purpose, I could care less how clueless they are. Good luck on your future hunts!
In NM where I've hunted, any place to camp could be elky. I did have a group of guys move into the ridge line I had been hunting . It was my last day and their hunt started the next day. These guys had drug the camper down a rough road and literally parked on a major elk crossing. When I took off down the ridge you could hear them from 3-400 yards drinking and cracking up. I'm all for a good time but these guys could have been in elk straight out of the camper had they been discrete. These guys were 50+ so age is no indicator of stupidity. I had nearly killed a 330 not fifty yards from their camper the day before. It was the only place I found with cell signal so maybe that's how they chose their camping spot.
I'm not an elk hunter, but I know what you guys mean. It seems some folks just go " hunting " to get away from whatever. Wives, work, etc. I always tried to steer away from the guys that went hunting to drink and play cards. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not what I go to the woods for.
I used to deer hunt public when I was a young man, and I could never understand the door slamming and loud talking that went on in the early morning. It was like " Here we are. Y'all can go hide now ! "
Since most of my hunting is for whitetails my strategy always centers around avoiding the humans. Just part of the hunt. Some are more serious than others. Good Luck, C
Agree Paul! Majority have no clue as in az on opening morning 3 guys and a kid drove a razor to within 150 yards of a hot water hole and pushed all the elk outta there. Smh
I thought we were supposed to forget the wind and, "just hunt".
I agree Paul, thanks for saying it.
Scott
++ Paul. Left you a VM.
This season I went in blind to a spot at the end of a rough ATV spur off a long 10-mile ATV trail. Looked elky to me on GE. On the way in to check it out on Saturday before the last week, I ran into three guys who were ATV hunters - ie.. camp elsewhere, ride around with bows, jump off and wander around for a bit, move on.
I told one of them I was planning to bring in a camp to the end of the spur the next day. He replied, "Oh, we camped in there last year and didn't see anything. Probably because we camped there and scared all the elk away." He gave me a knowing look.
The next day I rode a camp in there and tucked it in a little aspen grove at the head of a little meadow. Long story short, I hunted solo on foot from there, no fire, no noise, very low key, Never started the ATV until I was ready to leave at the end of the week, and I was into elk every day. Never saw another hunter. Passed up some smaller bulls and almost killed a great one at 15 yards.
My primary evening ambush spot was about 400 yards downwind of the camp, where the valley narrowed and a couple ridge points came together. The bedding ridge was up above. I stayed away from that and hunted the transitions in the morning. I would have preferred to camp further downwind of all that but the spur ended at a SWA boundary where no camping is allowed. Where I camped there was a small, ice-cold spring coming out of a rock with great water (and a made a nice two-beer cooler for after the hunt at night. ;-) It was the only realistic water supply on that side of the mountain, and the little aspen grove was the only flat spot not in a meadow or surrounded by deadfall and beetle kill.
I watched elk feeding in the meadow in front of camp and they paid no attention to it. It was like hunting my own private ranch for a week.
Next year I may try to move my camp a little further up the valley and walk water up from the spring in mid-day, if I can find another flat spot not surrounded by dangerous trees. But the point is, those other guys were likely noisy, talked and laughed a lot, built fires, rode their ATVs in and out to hunt different places, while I stayed totally low-key and quiet the whole week. They saw no elk, while I had an awesome week.
I agree that fires don't bother elk in some places. In other places they do associate fires with human activity and will buffer accordingly. Same with ATVs where they hear them regularly (ie.. ranches, etc..) and learn they pose no threat, vs. places where they only hear/see them during hunting season and associate them with people pursuing elk in places where elk live after the ATVs arrive.
trkyslr I bet it was done on purpose !!! I got one better this year I got a call to track a wounded bull for a outfitter long story short we split up herd of elk ahead of us guide comes back a hr later said he called in 3 bulls why play with elk and educate them makes no sense!!
Rudi found the hunters elk , Shot was perfect I was told by guide and hunter LOL over half mile track job no blood OHHH yea guide and hunter had no game bags or packs to carry meat NO CLUE !!!! I went back to truck got pack and carried elk up the hill !!!
City, I spoke with the hunters at the waterhole and they were clueless .... with cow tags. Kid was a teenager in good health so it wasn't due to the kids physical restrictions or theirs. I saw them later on hiking a nearby ridge. One of the guys said I should have been there when they arrived as when he turned his razor off a bull was going crazy. Funny thing was I heard the whole deal of them driving in and the bull was bugling gathering his cows to get the heck out of there. True I'm sure it wasn't on purpose. Some just don't get it.
Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, Rudi!!!
On public land these days part of your hunting skill needs to be finding a way to navigate around knucklehead hunters and POS outfitters that think they own things because they are making a living hunting(some of them.)
What is hard to stomach is the lack of hunting courtesy. I've had situations on several occasions where a hunter drove by my vehicle and could clearly see my tracks down the road to a water hole and drove right in at last light to look around or glass the waterhole from the vehicle. I've had elk run back into the trees and soon after I heard what they heard first. The motor of an ATV or truck.
I've asked on a couple of occasions as to why they would do this when they had to have known I was in there. the answer is always sorry but it is public land. I would never purposely do that to someone. if in doubt I back out to be courteous to my fellow hunter.GRRRRRRRRR
Yeah, wait until you find a funnel where the elk go from feeding down in the foothills and travel on a well worn trail across a small bench into one if the only steep timber spots in the unit.
I found such a spot, and set it even though a guy had his truck parked 1/4 mile down below [next to their only water source- probably didn't know it was there] Right about prime time for the elk o move through [I had seen them do it the day before] here comes the hunter out of their transition area and he stops in the small pines right on the bench 10' from the elk highway, takes off his pack....and before I can yell NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! from 30 yds away he takes a dump right there. Of course he doesn't even cover it up- idiot. The he proceeds to walk past me at 20 yds with his GPS out and never sees me standing there trying to get his attention.
He was probably never more than 1/4 mile from his truck- had no clue one of the best funnels in the area was right there, etc- that is what you are up against in the elk woods these days, Paul, I feel your pain.
Yea, I run across some that don't get it but sometimes it's a culture thing...they are accustomed to hunting less spooky animals and don't know to adjust when hunting more wary game. It takes time to learn what you can get away with and I am more cautious than I should be at times. Yea, I get a little upset when others mess me up but not as mad as when I mess my own self up and I see that happen more than the encounters with others.
In getting away from others to find less pressure, I wonder if there is a " birds of a feather" syndrome. Find easy access areas and you find lazy hunters or hunters who really don't know what they are doing. Find atv trails any you find lots of guys who had just as soon ride an hunt. Find wilderness areas and you find the hard core guys. It would be an interesting study.
I've been complaining of this since I joined the Navy and moved out of Texas and started hunting public land.
couldn't agree with you more Paul! It is amazing just how clueless/careless some are, and they will tell you they learned it from a video or TV show.
That's why I hunt areas with motor vehicle restrictions and get at least two miles in,weeds out 90% of the weekend warriors and newbies.
I think the behavior associated with campfires and whiskey is much more of a deterrent for elk than the actual fire itself.
Last year my buddy and I camped on the fringe of a meadow, with a small fire each night while we ate and got our gear ready for the next day. We routinely had elk right outside of camp, above us, and below us each day.
I think the amount of noise and the extent of the human scent footprint are really what makes the difference.
Couldn't agree more Paul and I couldn't agree more about the general lack of courtesy. So many guys just don't get what it means to have any respect for a fellow hunter.
I always thought psychologists would make excellent hunters. It seems every year I focus way more on human behavior than elk behavior. Lose the humans, find the elk.
+++++++ Paul...I went into some of my favorite sreas this year for the first time in 4 years and the change was stark...I never use to see anyone...those days are over. Now everyone is a Google Earth gawking...Sitka wearing wilderness warrior....who thinks if they look and act like the catalog and mimmick the TV shows they are going to get an elk...never see anyone with anything they just seem to burn out the habitat. The pioneers drove the elk from the plains to the high mountians and that was not that long ago....I see the reverse happening...
TED I see so many guys have no clue they hunt the highest places yet they pushed the elk out into the open sage , Most guys have no clue how a herd of elk can and will live out in open sage and go unseen cause so many just drive by !!.
i was waiting for it to get light in mid september. i had bulls bugling on all sides of me, i was trying to decide which one to go after. then, just as it is getting light i hear an atv coming. the drove to within 30 yards of me and parked. 2 bowhunters got out and proceeded to start bugling and cow calling (very poorly and withing feet of their side by side). that was the last of those bulls in that area! the "hunters" only had to walk about a half mile and could have been in the middle of the elk without ruining it for everyone!
Although most of us, myself included had "no clue" at one time or another, I'll go ahead and post my list of pet peeves I see on elk hunts.
1. People driving, parking, camping where they shouldn't! Seems most guys want a prime camp spot more than they want to kill an elk, considering the number of camps I see with guys right on the edge of prime feeding habitat. Guys go on closed roads and trails without regard. They don't bother to get the maps and don't bother or even think to walk where they could possibly get their machine. The waterhole drive by at dawn or dusk is another that could fit this category.
2. Calling too much! Whether bugling from a vehicle or hitting the hoochie a hundred times in less than a minute, there are many guys that have NO CLUE with calling. Less is more! Not to some though. Some great examples above of this but nothing is worse to me than driving down the road, stopping and bugling to see what responds, then firing the machine back up and heading down the road. Not sure if there is any proof that they could associate this with hunters but sure seems like it to me!
I could go one but these two are the worst for me!
"Not sure if there is any proof that they could associate this with hunters..."
Heat- I would almost guarantee they associate this with hunters especially after the first week. I found a spot this year by a road. I could drive my dually right to the end of the road with no problem. There was good sign on the slope right above the end of the road and I just had a suspicion that if you drove to the end of the road you would not hear any bulls. I ended up parking on the side of the road about a mile from the end of the road then walked the rest of the way. When I walked to the end of the road and blew a locator bugle, I got multiple responses. Some where very close to the road. Just out of curiosity a few days later. I drove to the end of the road, same time and they had not received any other pressure. I turned off the truck, hiked for about ten minutes, blew a locator bugle...nothing. I know they were there and while this is by no means a sophisticated or conclusive study, I bet they just turned off as soon as they heard a truck at the end of the road.
People always say "Oh the elk don't care" with regards to any activity by a hunter, but if there is one thing I think every hunter NEEDS to understand it's that for hunters, elk hunting is this "fun" thing we do every fall. For the elk, every step they make could be their last and they DO know that. Their life does not suck and they want to live. Everything you do is a warning and the elk don't take it lightly.
Remember that and you will see more elk.
Blowing a bugle just to see if you can get a response... isn't that part of the problem...not knowing that is part of the problem...isn't that clueless.
We got the same thing with turkey hunters...calling to see if they can get one to gobble. They don't know that turkey has one call up...that all he will do. Use it up before season and he is done. Big Dan said the same thing about elk..call them up once and they are finished for that season. Calling before season or just to be calling should be outlawed....in fact, it is in some states.
And if only blatant ignorance was limited to outdoor sports!
"Blowing a bugle just to see if you can get a response... isn't that part of the problem"
Elk are not turkeys. As with all things hunting you never know what will work. Blowing a locator bugle works really, really well you just shouldn't do it all the time, especially if the elk are quiet.
As for calling in elk only once: I called three different bulls into shooting range, twice, on two different days this year. As long as nothing spooks them, they will come check out calls.
"you just shouldn't do it all the time, especially if the elk are quiet."
I should clarify-I like to mimick what the elk are doing. I use locator bugles all the time but if the elk aren't talking much, I will use them much more sparingly. If the elk are bugling a lot then I will use locator bugles more often.
Damn bowhunters! Always getting in the way of my....my....uh...bowhunting!
Paul, my favorite is the all day march through every bedding area in the drainage. Bad wind, swirling winds, no matter. A pretty big drainage in ID, after watching elk going out over the far ridge all day finally bumped into the guy and talked to him.
Couldn't tell him a thing, he was so excited he couldn't contain himself. "I was jumping up elk all over the place, all day! Elk everywhere! It was so cool!" But no shots. Trying to slow him up and explain the goal isn't to see one up close running. The goal was to kill one. "Oh, but I almost had shots on a bunch of them!" He wouldn't hear that those elk are gone now, he just knew they would be right back in there in the morning, it was their home.....
Oy vey...
TD, I ran into the very same thing this season as well, so I put myself on the ridge opposite the other hunter and tried to catch the elk moving over into the next drainage, CLUELESS!!!!
I pretty much hunt morning and evening...I ran into some Wilderness warriors and thier point of pride was "we hunt hard all day" I know this area and the only hunting in the middle of the day is spooking elk
I didn't carry a watch so I didn't know what time it was ever. The one day elk got vocal I didn't come out until 4 in the evening. Peak activity was probably around noon.
TBM,do you know why on that particular day peak activity was at noon? Answer that and we'll know if your the hunter this thread was started about.
I think the moon was in the secondary feeding position which is directly underfoot. Not sure what time it was or what stage the moon was in but it was a couple days after being full. The cows might have got up to feed and that got the bulls active. I busted one bull early in the am and I am pretty sure he was already bedded....full moon?
So it might could be said that it is not certain times of day to be avoided but times of inactivity and bedding areas. The question ibwould have is how to navigate without disturbing them. Some of the bottoms of the drainages seemed like good access in and out and on tops of the ridges seemed like places elk were located when active but not suitable for bedding.
What was the wind doing? In the area that I hunt the wind starts swirling around 8:30 and continues until around 6:30,nine out of ten bulls you go after during those times will wind you the minute you get into bow range. I do realize every area people hunt is different. The only exception I've found in 25yrs of chasing Elk is when cows are hot or a weather front is coming in and the wind is constant. I think that's what most of these posters were getting at by voicing their frustration for guys going after Elk and busting them in the middle of the day.
There were so many days where the wind was forcast as light and variable and it was hot enough for the girls to lay out in their bikinis. If I was hunting near to home I wouldn't have hunted half of the days I hunted while out there. I never found the wind to follow any traditional thermal pattern. It switched around most days. I had a whitetail spook elk one morning and one of those big mountain chickens flushed another stalk. It was a frustrating hunt. I impacted the elk more than I would have liked but it was either that or not hunt.
Your frustrations mimick mine... But your goals mimick ( I'm assuming) mine... You stated that they said they had great time. Maybe that's all they need. For me, the pleasure is the hardwork and figuring out the elk. But you're basically preaching to the hardcore here. For a lot of "bowhunters" hearing a few bugles, tipping back the bottle, and hanging with friends is what it's all about. It's not for me but for some that's all that's important. I have friends like that. We camp together but we never hunt together yet at the end of the season we're equally content with my 300"+ archery bull and his unfilled tag. I'll never understand it but I don't begrudge him his style.
Gil I totally agree. Why should you care what other people are doing unless they intentionally interfere with your hunt? They are hunting just like you are. Poor them that they aren't "as good a hunter as you." Poor you that there are other hunters hunting. If you're so concerned that they aren't "doing it the right way," enlighten them with all your wisdom.
I'm sure you've all said "we hunters need to band together to preserve our sport." Look at what you're doing.
Just hunt where these people won't,problem solved.
getting away from the crowd....rule number one for any hunt not just elk on Public land...
if your in a easy access spot...expect to get your hunt molested
Wow alot of hunter heroe's on here, we are not allowed to make any mistakes when elk hunting!pretty sure unless it's your property you best get used to public land hunters.And get a grip you are not that good!
I guess it's a catch 22 because most if the clueless guys don't kill anything but they make it difficult for others to kill but I still arrow close to 20 a year so they probably don't like me eather.
I think it really comes down to how dedicated you are to the sport and being successful. I've seen new hunters and 20yr vets doing all sorts of things I wouldn't do. There is a learning curve for everything and what one hunter deems adequate another does not or completely overlooks it.
I will add that being from the east and hunting out west is a whole new ball game. A lot of attention needs to be taken to the details of hunting style differences, and vice versa.
Hunters must evolve. Learning from mistakes and others is key. The people who cease to evolve usually are A)unsuccessful B)give the rest of us a bad name C)make us despise our own.
I understand that camping loudly near elk habitat will influence the elk, however just camping near elk in my experience has not affected the amount of elk I see. I do a cold camp with hammock and sleeping bag. I hang it right before dark and crawl in and sleep until morning. I wake and start hunting. Never had a problem seeing elk sometimes 50 yards from my camp. My camp moves with me and I am alway camping in the elk so to speak. Elk can be seen and shot at all hours of the day. I had a herd bull approach me just after noon one day after bedding for the morning. came in to get the cow he heard calling every 20 minutes. Did not want to take the 50 yard broadside, standing with head behind tree shot that day and passed. Thing is if you only hunt morning and evening, you are loosing a lot of oppertunities. You just need to hunt slower in the middle of the day. Also hunting alone really cuts the scent and noise introduced which usually means less disturbance of the elk.
