Contributors to this thread:
I lost an elk this year and am still pretty tore up over it. I have hesitated to post this up but I am hoping that someone might be able to help me figure out what went wrong. I marked the spot of my arrow's impact in the attached photo -- I aim for the spot that BB recommends and the arrow flew true but the bull took a step when I released and placement was not ideal. It was a 40 yard broadside shot at a small raghorn. My arrow was a front weighted 29.5" GT Hunter with a 100 grain G5 Striker head. Total arrow weight is 450 grains (at 271fps). Upon impact, I heard the crack of breaking bone and I estimated that at least half of the arrow was inside the bull. (I could see the lighted nock as he ran off and the arrow didn't bounce or move at all.) We gave the bull an hour before trailing. The blood trail was light from the beginning -- many times there was no blood at all. The blood we did find was bright arterial blood, there was no lung froth. One mile into the tracking, we found my arrow and shortly after, there was blood on both sides of the trail (in one spot only). The arrow was intact but I blade was badly broken and the other two were dull as a spoon. We found an empty bed 1/4 mile later with a handful of blood in it but then lost all sign. We had been tracking for 8 hours and it was almost dark. I went back to the area 3 more times and couldn't find any sign or see any birds circling. All I can figure is that I center punched a rib, lost a bunch of momentum with the broken blade and then the arrow deflected away from the vitals. Thoughts?
My opinion, bulls don't go 1 mile when arteries in the center of the lungs are hit. I would guess back lobes of lungs and with him walking, scapula was hit first.
Bud, if the arrow hit where the spot was placed, and the bull moved as you shot, where exactly were you aiming to begin with?
I'm not being mean but a step by the bull would have put the arrow square through the guts, not high in the vertebrae of the spine.
If you hit him where the red dot it is, you'd be close to the back bone. I'm guessing you were a touch higher, got less penetration than you think, and the bull is still alive. All the foc in the world, arrow weight, superior broadheads, etc... won't fix that shot if hit there.
It can be very difficult to see exactly where you hit an animal at times. As soon as they move it changes the orientation on the nock and it can be very fooling, so you may very have hit a bit forward and a touch higher.
BTW, I hit one just like that about 6 years ago. Same results. Elk will and do move at the sound of a bowstring. God Bless and stay after them.
A 3 blade doesn't penetrate as well as a 2 blade
450 is better weight than most, but I am a believer in heavier is better ( I shoot 600 gr for whtietails )
I would bet you hit shoulder bone - that would explain the WHACK you heard. I bet not as much went in as you maybe thought, and the blood was from just a shoulder flesh wound thus light blood.
You might have hit high, through the spinal fin too ... that would explain same results IMO
My opinion is same as above, hit a forward rib and got no penetration. I expect he is still very much alive. Nobody likes it when it happens, it is frustrating but we have all had those things happen, don't let it bother you.
Maybe hit the top of a rib going to the spine or the spine itself, both?
I'm with Gil -wy on this one... That red dot is on the spine or close to it. Your arrow could have gone just above the spine as well.
I had the misfortune of hitting a really nice bull in the bottom edge of the scapula this year. I was able to watch him bed and know exactly where the arrow was imbedded.
The pic I attached is from my buddies small 5x5 bull on the same hunt. The scapula there is almost an inch thick on the bottom edge. I've been filming a ton of elk and when they walk they often will have that lower edge of the scapula almost horizontal.
If that's where you hit him, which is very possible from your dot location, it would explain perfectly the limited blood and trashed broadhead.
In my case I searched for that bull for the whole season. I thought for sure he lived, but I never found my arrow that was imbedded in the scapula. The day before the rifle hunt I found him alive and well with a few cows on private land.
Not saying you didn't kill him, but with broken blades you definitively had a direct bone hit. The only thick bone in that area of your dot is that scapula. That bottom edge is super thick and is most likely what you got there.
Cheers, Pete
In all,the excitement I am guessing that your dot is wrong, mentally you think that's where you hit but I have a feeling it was farther back , hence a lost bull.
C3 could be right. I hit my bull about an inch or two in front of the dot and my arrow passed through the scapula in between c3 index finger on his left hand and the t bone that protrudes out from the flat blade bone. The Simmons zipped through it like it wasn't there and didn't even make a whacking sound that is normally associated with a shoulder blade hit....full penetration and all.
That red dot would be a high lung shot, towards the back of the lobes. There is very little vasculature here. The animal will very possibly die of asphyxiation, as the thoracic cavity is compromised and it's essentially a sucking chest wound.
There is very little blood from these for two reasons. 1) The chest cavity must fill with blood first before it begins leaking out, 2) There isn't a lot of vasculature in the first place to create much blood loss.
Given the state of the broadheads, I think Gil is right and you hit vertebrae.
I don't think that arrow hit where the red dot is located or you would have a dead elk 10 out of 10 times. Give me that hit every time. IMO.
X2 smurph- that red dot is a kill shot for sure IMO. No way that's where it hit him. My guess is you hit him higher and back some. I hit this cow in roughly the same spot and center punched a rib. 20yrd recovery.
This shot is less than 2" below the spine.
You probably hit the shoulder or the spine, if you hit the bull where you put that red dot you would be eating it right now. Your set up is perfect for elk. My bull from this year, similar set up, misjudged the distance, was a quick shot, hit a bit high, arrow blew right through, bull ran 20 yards and crashed hard
TBM: I have seen your Simmons head bent in a "U". You had a nice broadside with plenty of weight behind the arrow. Congrats on your very first bull. Let me know when you hit double digits.
High country: The only thing I would add is that you consider is a broad head that is 125 grains over better. Elk are strong creatures no matter what fixed blade you are using. I have had them drop in less than 9 seconds and I have found them in the next county. Many do not know this but a bull can loose one lung and live a full and productive life. Penetration is king when dealing with elk.
I have seen some with zero constitution to live and others where you swear that you missed even though blood is pouring out of them. Pat- the website owner, shot one at point blank range and even hired a helicopter. PM him and he will testify to how hard they are to kill at times. One factor that I believe is important is have plenty of blade surface that is razor sharp, and a 125 grain broadhead or better.
Check out the VPA 125's or the 150's (my favorite) if three blades are your favorite.
Could be shoulder blade like others have said. However, sounds very similar to a hit on a mule deer I had once where the arrow glanced off the bottom of the spine.
At the shot, it sounded like my arrow had been shot into a pile of gravel. Very little/no blood for the first few hundred yards. Then I found the arrow with the broadhead missing and severely bent (I think it may have gotten caught on a tree as it protruded out the other side and broken off as the deer ran (aluminum shaft)). After I found the arrow, lots of blood on both sides of the trail. I was able to recover the deer, I believe the broadhead hit the artery that runs along and just under the spine. The arrow never penetrated the body cavity, but did punch out the other side. It took me several hours to find the deer because of the lack of blood at the beginning of the trail, but this deer only made it about 400 yds or less (pre-gps era, so not really sure).
Your hit may have been similar, but maybe missed the artery (my shot was complete luck on horrible shot placement), but took out the front tenderloins under the spine, which would give a pretty good blood trail after the arrow fell out I would think. If that is the case, he probably survived.
Thank you for all of the input. At the time of the shot, I was confident that I had missed the scapula. The crack of the breaking bone surprised me and honestly, I was more surprised when I didn't find the bull within 400 yards. Something broke the broadhead though -- maybe I did hit the bottom of the vertebrae ... My shot was not far off from the picture that Wapiti Bob posted -- maybe a little further back. I thought that I was under the spine, I remember thinking that the arrow had hit just a little above mid-body and the blood left on trees was even with my belly button. (I am 6' 1") Could a strong rib damage a broadhead like that? I know that I will never know what happened for sure but I appreciate you all trying to help me make some sense of it.
Yeah, I bet you hit vertebrae....to mirror other comments...high shots are a lesson in disaster on elk.
To your BH, I've seen those short heads dull on elk too....it why i will only use a more tapered head now....puts less blade dulling hair, hide and bone in contact with the bevel, less dulling effect, IME
Beendare: Good post and Pearls of wisdom. 3:1 heads that remain sharp.....
" Could a strong rib damage a broadhead like that? I "
Not in my opinion no, bot with your poundage, arrow weight and the G5 Strikers are pretty well built heads ( I shot them one year )
Above the spine in the fin - yeah, you're probably not going to break that, or in the thick scapula
Even high rib bones yeah, I think you break those and get arrow in there and a dead bull.
Plus ... you got your arrow/head back, they means you didn't penetrate body cavity IMO
I lost a great bull this year and I though (key word) I hit him exactly where you have that red dot. I also heard a very loud bone crack. I didn't find anywhere near the amount of blood you did, but that is pretty irrelevant. The wierdest thing about my whole scenario is I found both halves of the arrow and it was very clean cut. After basically a week of looking for that bull I gave up and I am hoping he survived.
What I think happened was the arrow got slightly deflected, hit a rib up high and deflected right through one of the vertebrae fins. I would put money on it that you made the same hit. One reason I think this is because you said the arrow did not move when he ran. If you stuck him in the shoulder blade that arrow would be moving all over the place when he ran. If you stuck him anywhere near that red dot and didn't hit the shoulder, his shoulder blade would have broken that arrow off on the first stride.
Did you find your whole arrow or was it broken in half?
The red dot looks to be about 3 inches left of the scapula. But only a couple inches below the spinal vertebrae.
Was the bull standing upslope, downslope, or on your level when you hit him?
AndyJ -- One full mile into the blood trail, I found the whole arrow and it was intact. The nock of the arrow and the fletching were completely covered in blood and looked to me as if it was a complete pass through. 20 yards later, there was one spot on the trail that had blood on both sides -- approximately 2 feet apart. I agree with you about the shoulder hit and at the time, I was certain that I did not hit the scapula. Until I posted this thread up, I thought that I must have deflected off of a big rib. The sentiment seems to be that rib deflection is pretty unlikely and I probably hit the spine. The arrow impact seemed lower than that to me but I never did find the bull or even any frothy lung blood. Something stopped the momentum from the arrow. Maybe the hit was higher and not as good as I thought? At the time of the shot, I thought I had a decent lung hit or I would have waited longer before starting to track.
sticksender -- The bull was on my level when I shot, when I released he moved forward and downhill. The trajectory of the arrow seemed just right to me but with the movement, the arrow impacted high and back.
If you didn't find bright frothy blood you didn't hit lung. If you hit a vertebrae dead on, it would have stopped that arrow cold. My best guess: you shot through a vertebrae fin. They are about as big as hitting ribs. Your arrow made it through and when he was running a stick or tree caught the broadhead and pulled the whole arrow through. Totally a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if that was about right. It was pointed out to me when I asked about my hit, where you see the arrow hit and where it actually hit can be totally different.
I am a little suspicious about a liver hit, but if you followed him for a mile I would think he would start to really dump blood at some point. Again, purely speculation on my part and he can not bleed for a variety of reasons. One thing I know for sure is that it sucks to lose an animal.
if you didn't have blood on both side of trail (yeah I know, sometimes its hard to tell) ...
$100 says you hit about the spine, in the heavy " fin" part and the broadhead stuck in that, he carried it quite a way before knocking it off ....
he's alive and well
biggest bull I ever shot at I hit high and he ran off with 28" of arrow sticking out like a flag. uninjured for the most part (first bull I ever called in, way bigger than anything I ever called in afterwards)
if you didn't have blood on both side of trail (yeah I know, sometimes its hard to tell) ...
$100 says you hit about the spine, in the heavy " fin" part and the broadhead stuck in that, he carried it quite a way before knocking it off ....
he's alive and well
biggest bull I ever shot at I hit high and he ran off with 28" of arrow sticking out like a flag. uninjured for the most part (first bull I ever called in, way bigger than anything I ever called in afterwards)
The blood was definitely not liver blood,it was bright arterial blood and except for in the one spot, it was only on one side of the trail. Something that I did not mention before is that while tracking the bull, we found 5 different places where the bull defecated. Then, when we found the bed (over 1 1/4 miles into the trail), there were 2 more piles of droppings. One of the piles was about the size of 4 regular bull droppings. I have not seen that before. Losing an elk really does suck, not a single day has gone by that I haven't thought about it. The spinal fin theory makes the most sense to me so far -- maybe the broadhead impacted higher than where I saw the lighted nock. Maybe my eyes just fooled me. It all happened fast -- guess I'll never know for certain but I want to do all that I can to not let it happen again. Way too much effort went into the hunt to feel this lousy.
lung area is soft tissue easy to blow thru even if a rib is hit ! sounds like your hit was above lungs missing center of spine catching upper portion !
I've seen the defecating before... On a bear my buddy shot through Both hams... Blood on both sides of the piles... I have pics but not on thic computer
I'm disappointed, no mention of the void......
A bit late to this thread but I have had one experience with a rifle that baffled me. I was able to kill the deer shortly after the first shot to see what had happened. I know it was a rifle shot and not an arrow but I was shooting down hill at about 100 yards and the bullet hit the top part of the rib, somehow richoceted upward along the rib and came straight out of the top of the backstrap.
I am just thinking that if the arrow hit a little high and followed the rib up and planted itself in the top of the spine, the nock would be down ward making it look at though the shot was lower with the lighted nock. This would also allow all the blood to run down the arrow and onto the ground on one side of the trail completely covering the arrow with blood. The arrow would have been held in tight and not moved much as the animal ran off. The bull may have turned around on the trail where you saw the blood on both side at the one spot. The arrow could have eventually fell out or been pulled out by the bull.
If that bull was even slightly quaretered away you got scapula explaing the whole thing. Unfortunately I know of this from firsthand experience.
Besides, keep in mind that at 40 yds the arrow trajectory is downward eliminating the spinal hit.
"My arrow was a front weighted 29.5" GT Hunter with a 100 grain G5 Striker head. Total arrow weight is 450 grains..."
How are you getting a "front weighted arrow" with only a 100 gr BH, 450 total weight, and extra weight (lighted) in the nock?
"maybe the broadhead impacted higher than where I saw the lighted nock."
I've said this before. Because of the brightness of the nock, your attention is focused on it. What you see in the instant you have to assess the shot is where the nock APPEARS to be in relation to the animal, with reduced sense of the angle of the arrow shaft. They can actually make it more difficult to assess the shot, especially without a pass through.
The dot you show is very high close to the spine. The ribs are thicker there and very angled into the spine. Quite likely, the arrow may have been deflected by rib, up and over the spine, also making it appear that your nock was lower than the actual path of the arrow.
I shot a bull this year a few inches forward of your dot but same height, he ran 80yards and died within seconds.
No way to ever know exactly what you did or didn't hit. Above center hits on elk are notorious for being a high risk of resulting in long trails with disappointing endings. If your dot is close to correct, its probably a scapula or vertebra hit as discussed above. Likely an inch or two difference in impact spot and he would have piled up quickly.
Obviously many popular head designs have blades that can break, but that would concern me. I usually shoot a strong, non-vented head that can be touched up and put back in the quiver unless I hit a rock. A stronger head might not have helped recover this bull, but its one less thing to go wrong...and bowhunting has a lot of stuff just waiting to go wrong.
Penetration wasn't the issue if half the arrow was inside. Placement was. That was likely spine/over spine like Gil and Beendare and others said.
At that height you MAY have been low enough to get under spine where the dot is. Right on the edge IMO.
But there is another factor in play as well, high in the ribs they are thickest and curve up and into the spine, attach near the top of it. It's very common to hit a rib high just at or a bit below the spine and because of the rib angle the broadhead deflects and slides up the rib and smack into the "fins" over the spine. Loud crack, and with elk it usually won't damage the spinal cord. Backstrapped him. He will recover just fine.
Also another factor, this deflection also can angle the fletched end of the shaft down, giving the illusion of a hit lower than where it really was. Bright fletching, especially a lighted nock catches the eye at one point, the actual impact however is higher.
I know where the spine is, and although it is far lower in the body than many realize, the rib angles and deflection make the possibility of over the spine hit much lower into the kill zone than just the anatomy view would seem possible.
EDIT: Ziek beat me to it..... what he said.... =D
flybyjohn beat both zeik and you to it ;)
Yep... missed that, must have been during the half hour it took me to type it =D.... good thing I wasn't on that bloodtrail.....
He's probably using gt insert weights. That's what I need to do to get mine to 425. I'm using essentially the same arrow but with a 125 gr head and I'm a tad under 400 until I add weight.
