Jack Harris's Link
midwest's Link
There was a big thread on this a while back.
Bake
I cant be the only one that had a hard time watching that?
Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age...
"how far" as in distance seems to be the common reference to hits, but likely "how long" as in time would be a more accurate measure of a hit.
He hit that bundle of arteries just over the heart. Heart just pumps nearly all the blood in the body in seconds. Will check out faster even than if you just hit the heart.
That IMO is the spot to aim for (praise be to BB...) and can be accessed from many different angles if you know the anatomy and can hit your marks.
It is a cool video.
Frontal is lethal !
If a man says something and his wife is not there to hear it, is he still wrong?
Well placed frontal is lethal.
The people here and other sites recommend frontal shots when the elk are close. I suspect this is because the vital area on a frontal is much smaller than a broadside shot. As long as you know to shoot higher than you would expect (to avoid the sternum) and can hit a 5-6" circle, the frontal shot is lethal.
My simpleton math:
Broadside shot - PI * (18/2)**2 = ~250 sq inches
Frontal shot - PI * (6/2)**2 = ~30 sq inches
In all honesty, I have killed many grouse with a frontal shot.
Let's talk about the ones that got away instead!
City I love that rack. Character! Wyoming?
You can shoot through the ribs in front of the shoulder (cityhunter's shot) just like you shoot through the ribs behind the shoulder on a broadside or quartering away shot.
I don't really understand why some guys have no problem shooting through the ribs behind the shoulder but they are against shooting through the ribs in front of the shoulder.
The arrow may have the same angle and path, it's just going the opposite direction.
Remember too that lots of people watch ths stuff on the net. Not all of them are experienced and can keep it together at close range like you and City. I've seen guys come unglued and miss by 5 feet! Three times!!!
On a straight-on frontal shot, it would be a very lucky shot that didn't hit more than one rib. It looks like cityhunter's shot might have been angled and (slightly?) above the elk? Unless incredibly angled away, you are not going to have to go through more than one rib on the broadside shots.
Even if we up the frontal area to 100 sq inches (not sure how), it is 2.5x as likely you can kill an elk on a broadside shot. That is a big difference. You combine the excitement of a 800 lb animal 20 yards in front of you, and that yields a lot less wounded elk.
Again, individual results can be very good, but overall the frontal shot cannot be as successful as broadside for a given distance.
Not sure a broad side shot would be good in that situation either then.
It's a great hit, and I love the enthusiasm for hunting the youngster shows. Very cool that they caught it on camera.
Amboues i shoot best when my targets are small its called pick a spot , lots of guys just aim at the whole chest area on a BS shot !! and hope for the best.
bull from 2013 notice the exit hole I buggled him in ! arrow went thru front shoulder arrow passed thru bull ! he was dead upon impact did a death run and crashed within 15 seconds of impact !!
I hunt elk alone so not all the bulls are going to present the so called typical Broadside shot.
I just don't want people who surf the net planning their first elk hunt to think they can shoot at an elk as if it were a deer. I think we can all agree that elk are tougher and bigger boned than deer. Plus they live in country where pulling a disappearing act happens pretty easily.
Heck... we have a guy on here that tells them shooting animals in the ass is the way to go! Yep... you can probably kill them from any angle but not the best principle to pass on.
There are people who win the Powerball the first time they play. Try that again.
I share Mule Power's reservation with this shot based on a couple things. First off, I had it beat into my head from Day 1 that broadside, or slightly quartering away, was the ONLY ethical shot...period. Old habits are hard to die, even if evidence suggests otherwise. Secondly, we hear too many of the success stories, but hardly ever hear about the outcomes that weren't quite so favorable. Personally, I only know of 3 frontals that were taken on an elk. Of those 3, there were exactly zero recoveries. I highly suspect they were more a case of poor shot execution, rather than shot selection, but that doesn't change the fact 3 elk were lost.
There's no doubt the frontal shot is extremely effective IF you can maintain your composure under an extremely high stress situation. Again, as Mule Power points out, there are those that haven't even flung an arrow at an elk, yet state on darn near every frontal shot thread "I've passed up this shot before, but never again!". IF it's a close range shot, and IF you can maintain your composure, and IF you can steady your pin on the exact spot you want to hit, then by all means take the shot. OTOH, there is no excuse for taking a 40yd frontal shot at an alert bull, like our resident narcissist did on his first elk hunt. As Dirty Harry famously said, "A man's gotta know his limitations". Guess it boils down to being honest with yourself before taking ANY shot, frontal or not.
that said it was obviously very lethal
michael
I have seen 2 frontal shots on a deer. One I did on my muley last year in Utah and one my uncle did on his whitetail this year. Two very different shots and outcomes. Thankfully both animals were recovered.
My muley was 20 yards pretty much level ground. Arrow went in just left of briscut (where I was aiming) and came out thru the opposite side hind leg. The buck was down in a little over 20 yards. I never did open up the chest cavity. Just did gutless. Blood was sprayed everywhere from impact till he collapsed.
My uncles buck. Was 20 yards from a tree stand. Arrow entered right of briscut and came out right behind that shoulder. He was lucky that the deer decided to hang around the decoy. He got another 20 yard shot severe quartering away. High entrance with no exit. Well the next day at 10 am the deer was still a live. He was very week though. I ended things quickly when I found him. When we opened him up the first arrow never entered the chest cavity. There was however a great amount of blood on the ground from this arrow. The deer would have died but it should have happened a lot sooner then it did. I don't think the shot should have happened but it did and the outcome worked out.
I think frontals are good for the right conditions and right shooter placing the arrow in the right spot.
My arrow was 470 grains. My uncles was 365 grains.
It was truly a "Ray Charles" bloodtrail.
Mule Power- you must have been with TBM on his elk hunt this year! ;)
I guess you could always use a Rage, aim for mid body and just cut them in half. ;-)
I practice all these shot scenarios on my backyard 3d course all year long !!
All of those had things in common; 1) Bull didn't hear the bow [or at least they didn't react to it] due to wind or ultra quiet bow
2) Bull didn't spot the shooter
3) complete pass through shot that hardly slowed down
4) all were Coc tapered BH's
Its like they didn't feel it, and since they didn't see or hear anything- they didn't spook.
I'm at full draw and I remember thinking everything I can see in my peep is a kill shot. Full on death run, only made it 60 yds..... 2 seconds maybe 3.
Regardless, I congratulate this young hunter. His shot placement was perfect and he made a quick and ethical kill. Little else needs to be discussed about thus video IMO.
Amoebus,
My comments about shooting through ribs on a frontal shot were referring to a quartering frontal shot. If you take a quartering frontal shot you will most likely shoot through the ribs in front of the shoulder. I believe this is the shot that BigDan has used to kill 70% of his elk.
If you hit ribs on a straight-on frontal shot, you missed the spot.
Mule Power,
I hear what you're saying and I agree about people surfing the web and forming opinions.
I don't claim to have the experience that you have but my opinion (or whatever you want to call it) is based on my personal experience. I've shot 2 bulls at close range with frontal shots; one at 19 yards straight-on and one at 8 yards quartering frontal. I also called one in for a buddy that he shot with a quartering frontal shot. Those 3 bulls bled profusely and recovery was very easy.
As much as I hate to admit it, I also have hit 2 bulls too far back on broadside shots, one I found 24 hours later the next morning and one I never found. On a broadside shot it's very easy to under-estimate how fast an elk walks, forget to stop him and end up hitting too far back. You'll never gut-shoot an elk with a frontal shot unless you pass through vital organs and/or vessels first.