CPAhunter's Link
I will not even take a picture with an animal without having it properly tagged in a state that mandates the tag to be punched "immediately."
That being said a verbal warning and educating the hunters on proper tagging requirements would have been best.
One of the most piss poor cheap cop outs I've ever heard used is "it's the hunters responsibility to...". Some game laws are ambiguous. What exactly does immediately placing a tag on the carcass mean? 1 min, 5 min, or 30 sec after reaching the downed animal?
immediately [ih-mee-dee-it-lee] adverb 1. without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once:
Personally, I don't see the need for more than bag limits and season dates. Think of all the paper that could be saved by not having to print those huge, cumbersome proclamations every state publishes every year.
How a hunter decides to approach the problem of killing game should be left to the hunter.
Most game wardens could be put to work doing something productive for society.
I violated this rule this year. I shot my deer from a cliff and saw it go down. I hiked to the deer and then cut my tag. By that rule, I should have cut my tag from the top of the cliff.
By the literal definition of the rule, there is no way to cut a tag 'without delay' so everyone is in violation.
The meat didn't go to waste like a poacher's kill would have - I guess that is good.
Warden Scott has built a reputation in the Gardiner area as someone that follows that letter of the law and not the spirit of the law, which is unfortunate because a little common sense goes a long way to building trusting relationships in the community.
Patrick
Absolutely impossible to do. Once the animal is down, that is time zero. The time it takes to put your weapon down, dig in your pocket or day pack, pull out your license and notch or mark the day and month - time has elapsed. Every human who has ever hunted in Montana is in violation of the law because of the ambiguity of the interpretation of the law.
That's what happens when you are by the book and letter to the law. And, Warden Scott was out of line!
I think both are wrong. The warden was a little ticket happy and the hunter did not follow the letter of law. It is unfortunate that the laws are so burdensome but the guys should have known that when they purchased the tag. Bottom line....tag the animal "immediately" if that is the law. If you don't follow the rules you are subject to a citation.
If the warden is watching the hunter and he walks up to the elk, high fives his brother and admires the animal for a few minutes and then tags it I would bet that nothing would have happened. Taking 20 minutes to tag an animal is asking for a ticket.
Opening day, He checked a Dad & son pair that had just dragged the Dads buck to the truck. Liscences and tages were in order, EXCEPT the carcass tag was not attached to the deer, but still in Dad's pocket.
The C.O. showed them the written instructions on the tag, told them it could be an $xxxx fine. He then took out a zip-tie, attached the carcass tag and gave them each another tie for their next deer.
This all from what most folks see as one of the stricted C.O.'s in the state of Kansas.
Don't let this fool you, if you are on his s*** list, or try to lie to him, watch out!
It's all on film.
I hate the Warden shows and I hate what a lot of wardens try to do. They try to entrap you into saying something then they give you a citation because what you said might be slightly different than the exact letter of the law. More time should be spent catching poachers.
The warden was obviously trying to find any possible infraction if he sat there with a timer. My hunch is the warden knows that using common sense many people take a few minutes to tag the animal and if no other violations are noted he could hang a ticket on the term "immediately".
It was a chickensh*t move.
If you're looking for "entertainment value"...bust a poacher or someone responsible for a serious violation.
The only message this sends to the viewers, is that Montana Wardens are petty A-holes!
Best of Luck, Jeff
Also note that the hunter is a charter captain on Lake Superior. These guys typically adhere to the regulations more than the ordinary citizen because their livelihood depends on it and are oftentimes held to a higher standard. Much like a CPA not cheating on his own taxes.
I was following you until you added that little blurb about not cheating on your taxes. Maybe if you cheated on your taxes you would be promoted to Fed Chairman? :)
As a last resort we argue "The Geitner Plea". ie the software told me it was ok.
I'm curious to see the footage of this one to see the other side.
I remember once about 25 years ago hunting upstate NY. I shot a buck and attached the tag.
After dragging it almost 3/4 mile (up hill most of it) to the truck we realized the tag was missing. We back tracked and it took us almost 2 1/2 hours to find the tag in the dark.
We dragged the buck 100 yards back in the woods because I didn't want anyone to see it in the truck with no tag.
Just as a personal experience when I was 16 duck hunting in Montana on the last day of general big game season, myself and a friend, had a warden (will withhold the guys name) watch us in a spotting scope for several hours until the end of shooting light. He waited at the end of the road for us for several hours afterwards and proceeded to run us through the ringer. Checked ducks which were already cleaned, shells, guns, licenses, verified permission, and kept us there for about 2 hours doing it. Seriously on the last day of general big game season when people are killing deer, elk, and whatever else illegally you harass 2 high school kids after what was until that point the best day of waterfowl hunting in my life!!!!!
That's how certain, not all, wardens operate in Montana
snapcrackpop's Link
I did!
No different for a game warden. The only way for a warden to differentiate between a law abiding hunter and a poacher is by whether or not the rules are followed. Maybe the law should be changed or better defined, but it's still the law and even though "immediately" may not be strictly defined, it's not 20 minutes after, regardless of what most people think is "ok". It's a hunter's responsibility to know the law, otherwise you might get in trouble (duh!).
Sure, it would have been nice for the warden to go easy on him (both for him and public perception). But, any time you are asking for lenience, you need to realize you are already at fault in the first place. There's only one person making a mistake at that point, and it's not the law enforcement officer.
I will guarantee you that when that same game warden shoots a nice bull or whatever, he doesn't run over to it and cut his tag "immediately". I get the following the law, no matter how vague, but common sense must also be used.
So you guys tell me in the examples below who the Warden should take it easy on.
#1. Nice young hunter gets caught for not tagging animal even though he shot it 30 mins ago. He acts nice and pleads ignorance. He seems like a nice kid. Went to same HS. Knows his Uncle.
#2. Older, gentlemen gets caught for not tagging animal even though he shot it 30 mins ago. He makes no excuses. Says he usually tags his elk immediately but just forgot.
#3. Very good looking girl gets caught for not tagging animal even though she shot it 30 mins ago. She get angry and start berating Warden because of a dumb "technicality" and continues to be a handful as he talks with her.
So which one of these people do you let go because of the "technicality" of tagging?
Not so easy is it. There are times when we don't follow the "lesser" laws (not just hunting)and get away with it. The times we get caught it's time to man-up and pay the fine. Most of the time it's a minimal fee.
If the elk hadn't been moved I think the Warden should be easy on all 3. 30 mins is not a heinous crime.
"The times we get caught it's time to man-up and pay the fine. Most of the time it's a minimal fee."
They confiscated his elk and he had to go to court! He lost his elk meat but the ticket was dismissed. Seems like he's either guilty or not and the prosecutor decided he's not. This guy is owed restitution for the meat.
The issues in the article are:
1. Whether "immediately" is a reasonable law on the books
2 Whether the Warden used common sense and discretion in applying the law
3. Whether the punishment fits the crime.
Thank you!!
I was so excited about the little deer I shot this year that I forgot to tag it right away. Luckily MN has a reasonable regulation in that it requires one to validate the tag before moving the deer and then securing the tag on the animal before placing on a vehicle.
Come on, how many hunters would not tag 'immediately' so they could stand by their elk and try to shoot a bigger one. How many are cited for this violation if not within sight of the road? This is one regulation that Montana could improve upon.
With that said, everyone who hunts in Montana regardless if they are resident or nonresident will tell you to keep a black roll of electrical tape in your back pack for a reason. Your not hunting in Minnesota, or Kansas anymore when you cross that Montana line. That should be the key lesson everyone should take away from this: Tag your game ASAP, otherwise your waiting for a ticket.
I agree with you that there are allot better things this warden could have been doing with his time and a verbal warning should have been the order of the day. If he wanted to really write some citations, all he had to do was glass the roads and he could have filled his ticket book. Trespassing alone would have done the trick.
There is a whole lot of subjectivity in the word "immediately" as a number of you have pointed out. Most feel that 30 minutes is a long time, but technically a warden could ticket you for taking 30 seconds to tie a shoe or take off a pack if following a strict interpretation of the word immediately.
The warden showed poor judgement and a the county attorney and judge agreed to that. This world would be a better place if a little more discretion was shown by a good percentage of the population.
A verbal or written warning would have been MORE than sufficient for a hunter who obviously was not trying to break any laws and who was probably just so excited about shooting a bull that he wanted some pictures with it before he thought to throw a tag on it.
If the prosecutor decided not to pursue the case, then the hunter should be compensated for that lost meat.
Agree totally with Pat's view above about laws and their enforcement. These types of actions jade our views and attitudes towards government even further down the...
Immediately, whether some like to admit it or not is a general term that can mean different amounts of time to different people. To some it is a nano second, to others it may mean within a few moments. The law could be a little more clear like “before the animal is touched or moved”, this doesn’t assign a time to it but an event that takes place. Right now the event is when the animal is killed. The "kill" for me is not an instant second but a event that holds a certain time frame. How many bow hunters shoot an animal they know is dead just before dark but decide to come back and look for it after several hours just to make sure it is dead before approaching it. That surely is more than 25 minutes. The game warden certainly should have looked at intent to break the law, instead of what his definition of immediately was. These guys tagged it just about as immediately as I ever do as I usually take 10 -15 minute to approach the animal most of the time. When things like this happen, the excitement is usually so high that the tag is easy to forget about until some of the excitement and adrenaline wears off. I am guessing that is what happened here. This reminds me of one time I was in the store for something, I was holding some merchandise and got to talking to someone that worked at the store about something for quite a while. When I got done with the conversation, I walked out of the store and didn’t even realize I had something in my hand that I hadn’t purchased yet. I quickly ran back in the store to pay for it. Should I have been arrested for shoplifting?.....it sounds like this game warden would think so.
Perfect opportunity for that warden to show courtesy and respect to two hunters, and leave a good impression. If he'd only informed them they were wrong, they would have left with a good feeling towards LE officers.
Instead, you get this crap.
I can see it everyday, as I represent a lot of people charged with small and major crimes.
Here's an example, a 16 year old girl, hadn't been driving for more than 2 months, on a windy road, lets her tires drift off the highway, overcorrects, and runs through a neighbors fence. Neighbor is wealthy, insurance pays for fence. Girl's car is totaled.
A-hole cop gives her a Careless and Imprudent driving ticket. She wasn't speeding. She wasn't on the phone. She was just inexperienced.
Why? Come on, use some common sense! I don't know who made me madder, the cop, or the prosecutor who wouldn't dismiss.
I see crap like this every day. It's ridiculous
Bake
Many people don't have the resources including money and time to fight these types of cases, and the people writing the tickets know that. Even when the revenue is not tied back directly to their departments, it is still revenue for the state.
I have to say that if the regulations are interfering with some pretty integral aspects of people's hunts, those regulations should be changed and simplified.
I think it should be simple; Tag the animal before breaking it down and moving it.
But I will certainly be mindful of this in the future.
Do you tag all your animals before photos are taken? I certainly don't...
I most always cut my tag and fill in the blanks before I gut, while my hands are clean. After I gut, I clean my hands, and put the tag on. But that's in Texas. We carried three pronghorns down the highway to ranch headquarters earlier this year in Wyo. without tags on them, but the tags were cut. Didn't want to take the chance of a tag blowing away. Guess I'd better rethink that !
There's the letter of the law, then there's the intent of the law. Problems arise when someone in a position of authority can't, or won't, use a little common sense to distinguish between the two.
This is absolutely true! A few years ago I was stopped at a game check and was given a written warning for improper tagging of a big game animal. I left the deer meat with a Montana resident/friend but kept the tag on the antlers thinking I'd need that in case I was stopped. The warden admitted I was in a catch-22 situation and that if I'd possessed the antlers without a tag he'd have confiscated it and also ticketed me.
He showed COMMON SENSE! We figured they'd be paying a visit to my friend and ticketing him for possession of meat without a tag but again the wardens showed COMMON SENSE.
When does a GW give a warning and write a ticket?
Let's say he sees this violation 100 times in a season. How does he make that judgement?
No way. Enforce the laws.
BTW These guys still hadn't tagged the animal when they were going back to get the tractor!
I just don't think Common Sense is a fair way to enforce laws.
I do believe if the law is bad change the law.
Wrong, the article states, "After about 20 minutes, during which they took photos of the elk, Latvala tagged the animal. Warren Latvala returned to his home to get a tractor so they could drag the elk back to his ranch."
They tagged the animal before attempting to move it and before they noticed the officer...from my interpretation of the article.
Really? You think anyone going 66 in a 65 speed zone should recieve a ticket? There are so many laws on the books, federal state and local, that it is impossible to know them all.
You were perfectly legal doing that in Wyoming, which requires that you notch, date, and sign the carcass tag upon the kill, but the tag doesn't have to be placed on the animal until it is put in the vehicle for transportation to your home or a processor. There isn't even anything in the law as to what you do if you have to cut up and pack an animal out in several trips, but a GW Supervisor told two of us that he prefers the tag stay with the carcass, while other GWs prefer it stays at the vehicle. That sucks when they can interpret a law individually and possibly issue a ticket based on that individual interpretation! My buddy had his bull tag properly filled out, notched, and had it in his pocket for safekeeping when we came out with the second load and found the GW at the truck waiting for us. That conversation started when he asked for John's license, Conservation Stamp, and then asked where the carcass tag was. He was a very nice guy, as have been any others I've had contact with in 20 years of hunting out there.
everyone should be writing in to FWP to complain about this...
I'm surprised at a lot of the hard core responses to this story, some from regulars to this site.
This warden has a small mind.
One day after placing bait we had just gotten back to the truck and the warden asked for our licenses, baiting training card, bow certification card, and a copy of our bait station certificate. We had all then the warden started accusing us of illegally baiting. We said nothing and let him go on his rant.
4days later we each got a phone call from the same warden again accusing us of illegally baiting, and told us we lied on the location of our bait and stand. We both gave him the GPS co ordinates which were The same as what we gave fish and game which was required to register our bait station.
Turns out he had gone in twice with his 4 wheeler with HIS GPS and he could not find our bait and stand and he was Pissed at us.
Over the next two weeks we received a call from the same warden accusing us of multiple infractions. All of these were flat out lies by the warden. We take photos of absolutely everything at the site, including the GPS on a the bait barrell showing the co ordinates. Every day we hunted and he did not see us in person he would leave a note on our truck telling us to call him for another supposed infraction.
The final straw was when he finally had found the bait site and he called us and accused us of not having the required signage at the bait site including names of those who registered and were authorized to use the site. We told him we had photos of the signage as required by law. He accused us of lying. We both told him to stop harassing us and he laughed.
We went out the next day and the signage was missing from where we had put it. Almost every year our signs get torn down by bears. I got in the stand and saw a piece of our signage in the brush about 15 yards behind the stand. We took photos of what we found, where we found it and had a date stamp on the photos. A bear had torn down the signage. We even included a photo of the tree with the bears claw marks on the tape and bark of the tree.
When we got home we called the warden and told him we had photographic proof that a bear had torn down the signage and had photos of the torn up sign which included teeth and claw marks. He proceeded to laugh in our face and told us we were lying and that in his supposed 20 years as a warden he had never heard of a bear pulling down the signs at a bait site. He was off duty when we called him and he said that the next day when he got to the office he was going to write us multiple citations.
We were at the fish and game office the next morning before he was. We asked for the highest ranking officer in the office. We had documented, times, dates of his harrassment, times and dates of his phone calls to us, written corroboration of the lies he told us regarding our supposed infractions, and showed the commanding officer our photos of our site, with signage when we first set out. We showed him the photos of the tree that had our signs, the claw marks in the tape and tree, and the photos of the destroyed signs with the claw and tooth marks.
We demanded an apology by the warden, and told the commander that if we were contacted by the warden at all regarding this that not only would the warden, but the commanding officer who was allowing this kind of harrassment to happen, would both be hearing from our lawyers.
We never heard from the warden again. Never received an apology from hi, but did get a letter of apology from the commander with notice that that warden had been removed from the field and put on desk duty. 1 year later he was reassigned to a remote location in a different part of the state where his duties were desk duty only.
Apparently the commander had gotten a ton of calls regarding this a hole warden all complaining about his bullying and harrassment after us.
Once an a hole always an a hole. And the worst a hole is one with a badge.
I think I'd go ahead and hire some legal council and go from there. This public display of an ego trip resulting in some degree of humiliation should cost the good officer something.
Last year, my friend and I had to pass through a game check station on our way from one hunting spot to another. My friend had harvested a bull elk that was properly tagged. However, my friend had neglected to sign his license when it came and was carrying it unsigned. I had seen it the night before after we got the elk out, but forgot to remind him until we saw the sign for the check station. As I pulled up short to help him find a pen to sign his license, we had wardens driving up with lights flashing and commands to get our hands out where they could see them. We quickly complied, and when things settled a little bit explained why we had stopped short. After checking over the elk to make sure it was tagged and evidence of sex retained and nothing else was out of place, one of the wardens loaned my buddy a pen so he could sign his license. THAT, was a common sense approach by a LEO who recognized that there was no intent to break the law, only and oversight that my friend did not realize and I had forgotten to remind him.
That 6X6 bull was the prize for over ten days of hard hunting on his first elk hunt at 60 years of age. His wife and children had bought him his tags in secret and suprised him with them on Father's Day as an early 60th Birthday present. Now, had that warden seized his elk (as he probably could have legally) and ticketed him it would have soured both him and me towards wardens. Instead, he took the sensible route and left both of us and I don't know if the footage made it to air or not, but I have to believe the viewers as well, with a good impression. That good will partially helped me to stick with testifying and taking off work and my own time to help bring about a conviction in a local poaching case that dragged out far longer than I ever imagined when I turned the information in. Give a little, get a lot... It works both ways.
Sad to see that two fine gentlemen who had absolutely no intent to break a law were treated like felony offenders here.
If I read this story correctly, all charges were dropped yet all property was not returned. If they had confiscated his rifle and tractor, could they have sold them at auction before a court date? I think not!
At the least a civil case should be brought against this officer for the replacement cost of the confiscated meat.
This officer shows little to no common sense and would be better served in the capacity of asking the public "would you like fries with you order?" rather than in position of power.
I would bet that that one action by that moron of a warden will cost MT. a bunch of revenue from "would have" hunters!
BigDan "If you don't like the laws don't hunt here" - REALLY - you've never driven 56 in a 55 zone! You throw someones cow call in the woods --- that's littering right! -- that's against the law right --- maybe you shouldn't hunt MT - or any place that has a littering law! Careful about throwing that first stone!
The rule for immediate tagging is for a reason. Many poachers shoot an animal and don't tag it either because it was not the trophy they wanted or to save their tag and start cleaning the animal.
From the Warden's EYE: Now if you start cleaning your animal without an attached tag, you fall into which category above?
That may not be a problem in your home state but it is a problem in Montana. With all the out of state oil drillers, comes allot of ground checking. Locals can be just as bad.
Obviously, we are dealing with a young knowledgeable but very unwise warden on this one. Hopefully, he/she will chalk this up as a learning lesson and take the time to educate some hunters next time.
LESSON: If you hunt Montana, the first thing you do after a successful harvest is put a tag on it. If you don't like it, don't hunt in Montana.
"My daughter just finished hunters safety this year and Drew came in one night to talk....it was horrible. He stood up there and told the kids they had better study the regs from front to back and know them, not bad advice.
Then he told them how if they violated ANY law in there for ANY reason no matter how big or how small, whether intentional or not he would catch them, give a ticket, confiscate their animal and push for full prosecution. Guess he is a man of his word.
I left that night thinking if I was 12 taking that class I would drop out because no matter how I try or what I do if I make any mistake the GW is coming down on me without mercy! I understand fear as a motivator but he went way too far in my opinion."
*** Don't forget to email them and cross-post. ***
If they said the guy looked sneaky. Was looking over his shoulder and appeared to be considering not tagging it. Or had even dragged it one foot ok maybe.
Montana Fish Wildlife & Parks is an Fn JOKE. The big bad state of Montana can't even sell all of their elk tags whereas they used to have a surplus of applicants & people who couldn't even draw one. I have approximately zero respect for them.
They have a game check that isn't open in bow season. It closes in time for them to go home and have dinner during gun season. Then they base their management plan on the numbers collected there.
That "out to get you" mentality is pathetic. I never go through a game check. Why pull into a Nazi interrogation check point when I can drive through in the morning when they are at Dunkin' Donuts or in the evening when they worked enough to get paid and went home.
I won't bother telling you a long winded story of how they blatantly tried to set me up to confiscate a lion and revoke my outfitters license. unless of course you really want to hear it. BLATANT I tell you! I nipped that right in the bud and they tucked tail and ran totally busted for what they attempted to do. They are in the game management business for all the wrong reasons. Aren't we supposed to be on the same side of the fence? it's bad enough the other side of the fence is full of anti hunters without having our game management people over there with them. ugh!
They owe that guy full reimbursement for all of his hunt expenses and a new tag!
Remember folks... tag em while they're still kicking!
The old timer tagged his animal ....tagged it before he moved it .... and tagged it , if not immediately ,certainly in a reasonable amount of time.......ALL while the warden watched !!!
The warden's poor decision to site this hunter is reinforced by the Justice of the Peace and the County Attorney's decision to dismiss the case !
Because the warden watched this unfold , I think it borders on harassment. I mean 26 minutes and the animal is still unmoved. Example of... TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT WATCHING OUR EVERY MOVE or at the very least no common sense.
If the warden hears a shot on the ridge and hikes up the ridge for an hour and a half to find a hunter quartering an untagged animal....well that's a citation. No matter how long the hunter claims he took to retrieve the animal, it's just a little common sense.
Letter of the law ? Really? This warden's action only serves to alienate the majority of honest hunters while satisfying are few hard a$$e$. Public service just took a wrong turn in my opinion
Cut your tag before you pull the trigger !
Long story short - a hired attorney and 6 months later, NMGF withdrew their trumped up charges based on no credible evidence and harassment.
Many, many times Game Wardens lose court cases because they do not do due diligence and they go into a situation hell bent on leather.
My friend should have sued NMGF for a minimum of $50,000 for loss of a trophy that could only be regained in Africa.
And by the way - Federal Law will always, always trump Montana State Law every day of the week and twice on Sunday - every situation can be turned into a Civil Rights/Liberties case...
Right after the Wardens show they should air a show called Dropped Charges. lol
Unfortunately, this whole debacle serves as a black-eye for the state and its many good LEs and was probably a huge loss of everyone's resources to go through with the simple task of the dismissal of the charge.
I am all for game wardens and the jobs that they do protecting the valued resources, but lets focus on the real stuff.
BigDan, "Come on Man." -You're a smart dude.
Great example our government is setting, yet they can shoot you for resisting arrest for a misdemeanor.
Actually I believe that it has to be attached to the largest portion of the carcass.
So when packing out anything, say an elk in 4 loads, when you get half of the elk back to the truck (2 loads) and half is still at the kill site (2 loads) where is the largest portion of the carcass? Certainly not with the tag as it could be argued that the largest portion was now at the truck and if the tag was also there it was not with the largest portion on the way to the truck because there was still 2 loads at the kill site.
Or what if you boned out the entire elk and just had 4 sacks of meat (sack A, B, C, D) and you guessed that the largest sack was sack A when in fact it was sack C that was the biggest by say 2 lbs. Should you then receive a ticket for improperly tagging a game animal? what if the difference was 12 lbs or 18 lbs or XX lbs, what then?? Are we supposed to pack a scale into the woods with us?
Basically there is a bunch of very poorly written laws in this state (Montana) and we have to do the best we can with what we have. But if they want you, they can probably get you on something.
Now if you have the resources to hire the correct attorney and want to fight the bull shit tickets that they wrote you, I believe that you would win in most cases.
In my opinion this game warden is an A-hole, but that is not my opinion of game wardens in this state in general. I have met and talked with many wardens in Montana and for the most part can say that they have been fair. But there is certainly more than one that are big feeling, want to through there weight around, d bags. Don't let one bad apple ruin the bunch and let the department how you feel about the poorly written laws.
I watched a couple locals shoot a real nice whitetail one evening. Well they had to take the hero shots and while they were doing that the deer tried to get up. Shot him again....!!!!!!! Nothing but a couple dumbasses at their finest.
My respect for FWP has done nothing but get worse this past year. Turned in three guys for trespassing and they let them walk. Claimed they didn't do it..!!! WTF when isn't a landowner and two hunters word any good. The guy was an outfitter with two clients. He flat out lied and got away with it. Turns out that this warden was a rookie and hadn't even been to the academy yet and one of the hunters was a DEA agent. Don't suppose that had anything to do with it. This guys had been turned in 7 times for trespassing. You would think that they would get a clue. Seminole will vouch for all of the whinning I did about it..!!
This elk story is the biggest crock of s%%t I've seen in a while. There is bigger and a lot bigger problems in Mt to worry about other than one guy who didn't get his tag punched right away.
But on the other hand when we have a really good chance to make an example of a repeat offender we let him walk. Gritting my teeth here!
What is the world coming to???
Who was the outfitter?
These type are the guys that need to go and do give good outfitters a bad name.
Ask Noah how pissed I was. Pissed was an understatement. Should have been wrote up and had to go to the board. Wished it would have been that easy.
Hmmm.... maybe there were two sides to Claude Dallas'story.
Pull up a chair and stay a while man.
I'm glad that cardiac arrest is a deer you're chasing, not something you suffered. I'd feel bad about razzing you if you were recovering.
But "immediately" as has been pointed out is subjective. The literal meaning of the word is practically impossible if one wants to split hairs.
This was bogus. The animal was legally taken and properly tagged before they got there. Should have been over and done at that point. The claim of not tagging or saving the tag for another animal goes out the window. They could have very easily told them they might want to tag things sooner next time as the warden was worried it might be a poaching case. Very well could have and SHOULD have left it at that.
Immediately? Honestly, probably takes me 20 minutes to get done wid my happy dance after knocking something down.... tag? oh yeah... nearly forgot in all the excitement, this is soooo cool... here it is....
Judge threw the case out. Good for her(?). That's pretty much all that needs to be known about it. And about the TV warden.
All these reality TV things pretty much suck. They are in most cases a total distortion of actual events. Cheap video shoots for cheap thrills. Next we will see a fat old martial arts actor chasing hunters around....
there are rules
we need to know them
we then choose to follow them or not
if we don't we are exposed to the risk of penalty
sometime that risk becomes reality
sometimes that risk does not
here it did
most times it does not
driving 56 in a 55 is applies as well. do it an you willingly turn over control of the situation to someone elses interpretation of the materiality of the violation
yeah, but as Matt so eloquently pointed out it appears that Dan hasn't tagged his AZ elk while he is sitting atop it for pictures and AZ has the same law. Something about kettle here...
I have piles of respect for Dan, but come on man, you cant ride someone else about a law you apparently don't follow yourself and on top of it im betting he sent in the P&Y paperwork on a 400" bull.
this is a bs charge and I am wondering how they gave the meat away- I don't get that. that said how would they keep it, store it at a local meat locker and pay that guy a fee or something? it isn't like every warden has 11 chest freezers at this house for evidence...
michael
For the record, as the "thread owner" I haven't removed nor blocked anyone.
Editor:
To clarify a few points on your story on the elk confiscation, my wife and I own 320 acres on the east side of Hwy 89, irrigated alfalfa and a few cows. We never had elk until the wolves were reintroduced, now for half the year, between 30 and 200 come across the highway from the river bottom each night, trash our fences and graze on the alfalfa.
No other hunters were in the area when my brother shot the elk before 8 am (and no 60 shots), but our neighbors were hunting on the same river bottom section about 3/4 of a mile to the south. After Jim shot the bull, the rest disappeared into the timber. A few minutes later we heard one other shot in the near distance to the west. I walked back to get a tractor to fetch the elk, and saw the warden (& cameraman) parked on the right-of-way. He asked if I shot the elk, and asked to see my license when I said that my out of state brother shot it. After seeing my intact license he said Jim would likely lose the elk as they witnessed him tag it 21 minutes after the bull went down. He and the cameraman had watched and filmed the whole thing from behind some trees about 1/4 mile away. I went to get a tractor while the warden (& cameraman) hiked down to see Jim. He announced he was a game warden and told Jim to cut the tag off and bring it to him. He found the tag was completely and correctly validated, but told Jim he would likely lose the elk since he didn’t tag it "immediately", but would see us at the ranch.
When he came by, in response to Jim's question, he said the head would be held as evidence and the meat would be processed and frozen pending the court results if Jim pled not guilty. When Jim asked what "immediately" meant he replied "It's in the dictionary, you can look it up", obviously playing to the camera. We saw the elk still folded up in the back of his truck past noon and still an hour from Bozeman, at 71º. Three days later the warden's supervisor told the county attorney, contrary to what the warden said, that the meat had already been processed and given to charity. I don't buy that story; there is not a processor in the state that would accept the elk after that delay in hot weather. I suspect the elk was processed in a landfill.
Warren Latvala, Clyde Park Reply · · December 14 at 9:16am
CPAhunter's Link
Reading through the comments there's only 1 or 2 people in favor of how the warden handled this.
They are however, state or fed employees and often have that "bureaucratic-more-holy-than-thou" crap woven into their mind set. What would you rather do - chase a 1% criminal type that might possibly try to kill you, or ticket a gray-beard old fart that had an un-plugged shotgun while hunting rabbits and shot a bonus grouse? It is also unfortunate to be in a situation with a large number of officers (think cops here) present. The tendency is for one or all to be a little more unreasonable and much more authoritative while grand-standing for the group. I wish they all had the opinion that "WE Hunters & Sportsmen" pay there salerys. The slob hunters and weekend-thugs make that hard to sell. How many times do they bust a guy for game violations and find out other felony has occurred. They don't know what might go down when they stop someone (armed sportsmen) or how badly that guy might not want to be caught or confronted.
Like I said they have a tough job! LaGriz
I agree with most a little common sense on the wardens part and a warning would have went a long ways.
The pressure to create some drama in what is normally hours and hours of boring, going through the numbers of checking licenses, etc. becomes too much for would be stars....
But on to the subject at hand, as harsh as it looks, it is the hunters responsibility to adhere to state laws and follow them closely, but as others have said, a warning could have sufficed, but because the warden was being filmed he had to perform his job and adhere to the laws as his superiors are watching the same show you and I are, and what precedent would this show to others, that it is ok for them to cut and tag the animal whenever. It sucks these guys were being watched that close (kind of freaky to me) but it is what it is. Lesson learned and one we should all be thankful for as a reminder at their expense.
Why can't it be as simple as 'the animal is to be tagged before any field dressing occurs and/or is moved from the kill site for processing.'
I completely disagree. OK... maybe not always but much of the time. Laws have to be written to be effective in the case of those who are blatant offenders. No loopholes. But the people who enforce them damn well know that they only have to use those laws to the letter when the need arises. It is a LEO's job to use at least a certain amount of discretion. The enforcement officer is where the rubber meets the road and in cases like this the law itself was clearly NOT the problem. It was the ahole in front of the camera.
If the problems lies anywhere else other than the officer who screwed the hell out of that guy it is in the law makers. Bill in MI hit the nail on the head. The law in most states says "before the carcass is moved" To write a law that suggests you can't lay a hand on the animal for any reason until you have run over and slapped a tag on it is absurd.
If they had half an ounce of sense they would realize that things like this just make their job harder if anything. It undermines the respect they hope to get from hunters. Any ethical hunter can appreciate what they do. But even the most conscientious of us surely shake our heads at the extent to which they went to ruin a great hunt for a hunter who had no intention of any wrong doing. He freakin tagged it! Pardon me and him if he was excited and let a moment go by where he stood there and smiled. Montana by the way is the worst for this shit.
Like I said in an earlier post: They really tried to set me an a non-res lion hunter up. But I busted the hell out of them. They told my taxidermists straight up "That cat will be ours". The biologist who eventually came to inspect and band the cat was embarrassed. When I began a conversation on the subject all he said was "I know. But I can't talk about it. I hope you understand" He was a great guy who incidentally lost his job the following year.
Care to hear the story? It's a doosey.
When I hunt out of state I wear out the hunting regs of that state...I want no problems whatsoever.
County by county we have such a difference in enforcement styles, that you best know your guy AND the laws.
No deer is worth a 4 figure fine, confiscation of vehicle & weapon, and loss of hunting privileges.
BUT....it seems today common sense is an uncommon virtue.
When I hunt out of state I wear out the hunting regs of that state...I want no problems whatsoever.
County by county we have such a difference in enforcement styles, that you best know your guy AND the laws.
No deer is worth a 4 figure fine, confiscation of vehicle & weapon, and loss of hunting privileges.
BUT....it seems today common sense is an uncommon virtue.
I would like to hear the story if you have time.
Patrick
Next time we purchase our licenses we should give this some thought.
You will always have cases like the one we are discussing because of the police state America is becoming, and that is the larger issue. As long as we accept that "one should know the laws", we will continue along this path, and nobody knows all the laws, not even the ones enforcing them. If the government decides for whatever reason to come after you, they will, and they will win. That is what makes private property confiscation such an abhorrent practice of law enforcement in this country.
That doesn't mean as individuals law enforcement personnel are bad people, like every where, some are some are not. The system is broken, and frankly rigged. There is something wrong when you have to read a novel of law to deer hunt without having your vehicle confiscated.
Yes tell the story!
I even have a sequel. haha
Once upon a time I was a non resident outfitter. When I first bought my business in the Bitterroot I was still a Pennsylvania resident. Not to sound prejudice but I found out what it must feel like to be a guy from the Middle East wearing a turban standing in the checkout line at a Cabelas.
I had a hunter... non resident of course, hunting lions. We killed a nice tom and followed the standard procedure which is make the call to report it so they can add it to the harvest figures. There is a hotline you have to call every day prior to hunting to make sure the quota is still open. Then we called FWP and made the request for a biologist to come inspect and attach the band to the cat. I've worked for other outfitters and the return call is usually really quick. They are excited to come see lions. But in this case no return call. OK maybe they are busy.
My client still had 2 days on is hunt so we did some sight seeing. Next day no call so I call again. No answer, no call back. A friend from Darby had the direct number for the biologist so he tried that. Same deal. This went on for the entire 2 days after the day of the kill. Extremely unusual. On day 3 I called both numbers again and told the truth: My hunter had a plane to catch the next day. I also said that we were dropping the tom off for a full body mount at Game Trails Taxidermy up in Florence the following day on the way to the airport if we don't hear back. I had the hunter write a letter and sign it stating when and where he killed the cat along with his contact information if there were any questions and leave it with the taxi.
The law states that the hunter has to be present when the lion is inspected. So I guarantee you it was at that point where they smiled from ear to ear thinking ha! We got him! After dropping the hunter at the airport in Missoula I barely made it to the south end of the valley when the phone rang. It was the taxidermist. We know each other very well. He said holy $h1T Joe what the hell is going on? He said the guys from fish wildlife and parks swarmed the place like a SWAT team demanding to see the lion. He showed it to them and they took a few pics and told him "That cat will be ours!" He told them he had a letter for them from the hunter but they wouldn't even look at it.
OK, hardball. I tried calling them repeatedly. No answer at any of three numbers. The next day (get this) I was driving through Darby and I see the big kahuna head of law enforcement. He is driving right down main street. I hurry up and hit redial. I watched him pick up his phone, look at the number, and set the phone back down. You Fn a$$h0le! Pretty clear what's going on now. You have 5 days to have a cat checked and the clock is ticking. Mind you a lion is considered a trophy class animal so the penalties are much stiffer than for a deer. Plus the glory factor for confiscating one is tenfold.
So I call the hunter who is a nice guy and also happens to have tons of frequent flyer miles. I tell him what's up and tell him to get his butt back to Montana immediately. A lot of hunters would have really put some blame on the outfitter but he saw all along what went down and knew I did everything I could.
The next day I see Barney Fife at the local diner. I dial his number. You guessed it... "I am unable to come to the phone at this time. Please leave a message after the tone"
The next day.. day 5 the hunter shows up. I pick him up in town and scoop the cat up on the way south. When I hit Darby me and my buddy called all three numbers and left the same message: "Our hunter is back in Montana. That's right he's back! If we do not hear back from you we will simply drive to either Missoula or Helena and have the cat checked at headquarters"
I know... why didn't we do that in the first place? I never imagined in a million years that would be necessary. Of course hind sight is 20/20.
Within 45 minutes all three glory grabbers return the calls. The apologies were pathetic. Sorry we have been really busy and blah blah blah. They tell us the biologist is on the way so hang tight. I said I will be here until I have just enough time to make it to the regional headquarters in Missoula before they close and then we are leaving. He showed up fast. He is a really nice guy actually. A pawn in the scheme of things. I see him in the hills with his dog hunting grouse on occasion. He is "one of us". So I say hey... what the hell was that!!! Pretty blatant don't you think? He says I know. I'm embarrassed. But I cannot talk about it at all and I hope you understand. He zipped his lips, took a tooth, banded the cat, congratulated the hunter, and drove off. The hunter vowed never to return to Montana again and hasn't.
When I make posts saying that Montana FWP is a joke and I have no respect for them I always imagine the people who think "Some people just have a problem with authority" This is Bowsite. It doesn't matter what you say there will always be opposite perspectives. But my opinion of them is from experiences. not just this one either. They have an "out to get you" attitude. Guilty until proven innocent mentality.
I'll camp overnight and drive my elk up the highway in the morning before the game check is manned to avoid stopping. It's just dodging a bullet as far as I'm concerned. I might have forgotten to dot an I on my license or something. When I read the story at the beginning of this thread I clench my teeth. Charges dropped but what about his meat? What about the memories of a great hunt that turned into a nightmare? Makes me sick.
So I took a few pics and called the law enforcement woman with the Forest Service like she told me to do. This isn't a FWP issue but one for the UDFS. Days go by and no return call. About a week later I stop at the ranger station and explain the situation. The camp has litter everywhere and it's been there forever. The anti hunter anti outfitter girl at the desk says "Why does it bother you? I know who's camp it is. I had a few beers with them at the Rocky Knob the other night and they are very nice people" I politely told her the rules are the rules. I have way more rules than civilians and I obey them all. We are told that we are an extension of the Forest service and I thought what I was doing was not only right but would be appreciated. I cleared the road so it would be easy for them to go visit the site too.
Nothing ever happened. The camp was there for another month. Later that year right around Christmas I got a call. It was the big kahuna from USFS law enforcement. She says I apologize for not calling sooner but I was really busy (sound familiar?) and I am just now getting caught up.
There are some good people in there and the next time I talked to my permit administrator she is pissed. She says that if I ever call again and don't get the service I'm entitled to I am to call her and heads will roll.
Guess who the head law enforcement officer for the Forest service is? The wife of the big cheese for Fish Wildlife and Parks that tried screwing me and my hunter out of the lion. He most likely would have tried to have my outfitter license revoked too. Mr and Mrs Ahole. Can you imagine what they talk about at dinner? Hey honey... wait til you hear about the guy I'm setting up this week. I got this one dead to rights.
When I think of a game check station I think of Hogan's Heroes and the Nazi checkpoints the used to have to go through.
Jim
Joe
I would think the video is going to show that you broke the rather nebulous law.
Have a good Christmas.
The govt did the wrong thing giving away someone's property before their day in court.
If they can't keep the meat in storage till the court date, then don't take it in the first place unless you plan on giving restitution.
Joe I have a story to tell also with a lion. Will do after tomorrow.
Have a Merry Christmas and a great New Year.
Mark
I sent you a pm - check your messages.
Amoebus wrote- "I would think the video is going to show that you broke the rather nebulous law."
IdyllwildArcher wrote- "When the charge was dropped, the law of the land thus said that the hunter did not break the law. He should have had his property returned to him. The govt did the wrong thing giving away someone's property before their day in court."
Some more of my thoughts on the matter. By letter of the law if 21 minutes elapsed before the elk was tagged,yes the video will show the law was broken. However, the county attorney made a very wise discernment not to prosecute based on lack of intent to commit a violation and knowing that bringing chicken feces cases before a judge is going to affect other cases in the future. A judge who finds "failure to tag elk for 21 minutes" and the seizure of private property, and fines in his docket along with cases of burglary, assault and battery, drug violations, rape, etc. is going to take a very dim view of this prosecutor. Keep in mind the same person who prosecutes fish and game violations also prosecutes all other law violations as well. For strategic reasons he/she is not likely to take a hard line attitude in prosecuting cases he/she might win but will make it harder to get favorable rulings in the future. This warden issued this ticket and seized the elk only because he didn't think it would be challenged in court. Most guys don't want to bother to return for a court date and will just pay a fine and move on. Now, had the warden just written a $135 fine and let Jim keep the elk, I'd probably have a different opinion. I might not like what the warden did, but I'd call it an expensive lesson on reading the fine print. Taking his elk is just like impounding a vehicle and then selling it at auction because a driver waited two weeks to change a headlight that was out.
Truth be told I would bet that 98% of all Montana hunters have waited at least 21 minutes to tag an animal at some point in their hunting career. I know I sure have and it wasn't because I wanted to kill another animal or hide something illegal.
As for being reimbursed, Yes! If I wanted just a set of horns I would go to the auction. How many racks go for $2000.? The warden told me "The head will be kept as evidence, the meat will be processed and frozen until after your court date". That did not happen. My bull rode around in the back of a truck for 6 to 7 hours on a clear sunny day in 71 degree heat. The elk was not fully cleaned or cooled down yet and the warden was informed of that. Unless they can prove to me the place, time, and condition of the meat when it reached a processor... and food shelf the meat was given to, we say my elk ended up in a land fill.
One more thing about being reimbursed... What value can be put on the good memories of family time and a long planned hunt for two brothers who live in different states? Our "good family times" started on the afternoon of October 24th when my wife and I arrived at the ranch. It ended 16 hours later the following morning. For the rest of our one week together, we found ourselves in a turmoil full of depression. All of this because a young warden with zero common sense, who plays nothing but "Hard ball" wanted to be a TV star.
As for being reimbursed, Yes! If I wanted just a set of horns I would go to the auction. How many racks go for $2000.? The warden told me "The head will be kept as evidence, the meat will be processed and frozen until after your court date". That did not happen. My bull rode around in the back of a truck for 6 to 7 hours on a clear sunny day in 71 degree heat. The elk was not fully cleaned or cooled down yet and the warden was informed of that. Unless they can prove to me the place, time, and condition of the meat when it reached a processor... and food shelf the meat was given to, we say my elk ended up in a land fill.
One more thing about being reimbursed... What value can be put on the good memories of family time and a long planned hunt for two brothers who live in different states? Our "good family times" started on the afternoon of October 24th when my wife and I arrived at the ranch. It ended 16 hours later the following morning. For the rest of our one week together, we found ourselves in a turmoil full of depression. All of this because a young warden with zero common sense, who plays nothing but "Hard ball" wanted to be a TV star.
Someone said 98% of all MT hunters are guilty of this. Probably true but doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law.
The law was put there for one reason - stop guys from shooting another animal.
So I am not sure how you discern from my example above who is guilty and who isn't?
I actually think the law is good but the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Just change the punishment to a $$$ fine, make the hunter punch his tag right there and if he's caught again then take his animal and privileges.
Too many laws are poorly written. This man should never have been issued a ticket, but any judge or prosecutor with any common sense or decency should have dismissed these charges (on the fellow from Michigan).
If that is the one reason then he shouldn't have been cited because.... he tagged it! Does that sound like he was ready to shoot another one?
