Z Barebow's Link
Unfortunately, I don't anticipate much opposition. I can and will e-mail the sponsors, but since I am an NR I am not holding my breathe.
I recognize the legislature is doing everything they can to generate additional revenue. And if they can do it without impacting their constituency, (residents), they will view it as a win/win.
The G&F needs money. And they need more money than they have been getting. Resources/money for G&F funding has eroded over the years. I don't believe G&F receives much money from the general fund.
If the legislators are serious in funding G&F, I hope they have a multi pronged plan vs hitching their cart to the NR "horse".
ID and MT raised their NR fees and licenses are now unsold, which never happened before. (I know there are additional circumstances also). But the result is the same. Revenue shortfalls.
As an unintended consequence, I can foresee general units falling short of their NR hunter quotas. I do not believe LE units will be affected. Supply and demand. Time will tell. I suspect the legislature is willing to take the risk.
For deer and antelope, I fear the revenue results will be less rosy than for elk. (I say that as there is more competition for deer in the country. Although WY is a good state, I don't know if it the expense of special draw "good". For antelope, I suspect folks will be willing to pay for certain LE units, but I don't have a good feel for the mid to lower units as I have not studied antelope)
I love Wyoming and I hope to retire there some day. I see this as misdirected move by legislators to fix some of their previous mistakes. And I can foresee an outcome other than intended, and not in a good way.
When I can no longer afford to hunt a state do you think I'm going to pay attention to, or give a rat's arse about what is going on there? Do you think I'm going to care if their wolf hunt keeps getting taken away or they lose access to their public lands? The answer is - absolutely not!
I hope this doesn't pass! It's just one more step in the wrong direction.
I only ask because I'm on the edge of not needing to get my tag via the special draw. I applied for the special draw this year but next year if things stay the same...I should pull my tag via the regular draw.
"This may sail through, but it still brings up the question...when are Wyoming residents going to be asked to saddle up and take part of the load on fee increases?"
Probably never if they have their way. There was a bill in the legislature a couple of years ago that would have raised resident fees by a couple of bucks and the residents were up in arms over it. The bill failed to pass.
Pay $10,000 for a quad? No problem!
Be asked to pay an extra $10 for a tag or license? BIG PROBLEM!!
You likely would see a significant gap in general elk units. I could see significant point creep for REG draw general tags. Hard to say if enough folks would buy general tag at special draw prices. If enough do, I suspect they will do so with no points and larger fee.
Heads up residents.. when funds get too low they start decommissioning roads limiting access. I've seen it in california... it is despicable.
Also, be advised the Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund is owned by that same Guide and Outfitter council:
"In Wyoming, non-resident hunters fund the vast majority of the Wyoming Game & Fish budget, play a critical role in meeting harvest quotas, and bring millions of dollars in tourism revenue to the state each year. Without our out-of-state hunting visitors, hunting in Wyoming wouldn’t be what is is today.
Amid game management and legislative issues here in Wyoming, sportsmen didn’t have a clear voice representing them. That’s exactly why the Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund (WHDF) was started. This organization was founded to protect the ability of sportsmen to access their hunting opportunities in Wyoming. WHDF will work to educate Wyoming’s residents and business community of the financial contributions made by sportsmen to the state’s economy, while working to conserve and protect wildlife habitats.
We encourage you to make a donation to WHDF. The funds raised will help influence legislative issues, conduct research, communicate, and work to make sure that a wealth of hunting opportunities continue to be available in Wyoming."
So, they defeated legislation that would limit their members income (understandable), introduced legislation to increase the NR Special draw allotment (20% of the Elk tags increasing to $1100), and ask for your donation to help them lay the pipe to you.
"I agree that residents should incur a significant increase to help fund the department as well... and I'm one of them."
Integral to my viewpoint. I don't disagree the G&F needs more funding. And NR's can be PART of the solution. If they rely on NR's as the ONLY solution, it is a potential single point of failure in a funding formula/forecast.
It is a free market, and WYO is one of many western states which offer antelope, deer and elk opportunities for the non resident.
MT might look appealing again when you can buy a combination elk/deer/upland/fishing license for less than the cost of a WYO special draw elk (and fishing) license.
Funding sources need to be diversified, varied, and not solely market dependent.
I wish that everyone had your attitude. It's hard to convince people that wildlife management takes money, like anything. The hope is always that the tag fees will go to the wildlife and not to fund Obamacare.....
I personally don't mind tag fee increases as long as the money goes toward the state's conservation program.
Colorado sells hundreds of thousands of $500 NR elk tags for a 5 day rifle hunting season. I'd rather pay $11-1200 for a 30 day archery season and a 30 day rifle season.
This is crap. It's going to cause serious point creep to the general tag unless you're willing to pay the $1100.
I pay for two WY elk tags a year (Dad and myself) and to pay for the special draw would cost me another grand. That's basically an entire solo DIY out of state hunt.
I don't have any PP in Wyoming and never will. I don't blame you guys for wanting to protect them. However, you really should think twice before aligning yourself with WYOGA, the same lobby that brought you the wilderness guide rule for non-residents.
My money says this is a preliminary move to eventually get more auction deer/elk tags for SFW, all in the name of "conservation".
My money says this is a preliminary move to eventually get more auction deer/elk tags for SFW, all in the name of "conservation"."
Ding, ding.
Seen the playbook before. WYO is ripe for SFW to "save" the day.
Revenue shortfalls, SFW has a "plan" for more revenue with auction tags. (Which they will oversee for a "nominal" fee of course) Where do these tags come from you ask? The current resident/non resident pool. They don't appear out of thin air. Would this approach end in more $$$'s for G&F? Nope. Not when you take into account the management fee. (Because the auction tag manager will/pick and choose projects THEY support/justify. Like internal administrative costs.)
I honestly think most residents of WYO are like Cory. I would venture a guess most on this site are DIY guys. R or NR. (Nothing wrong with hiring a guide, but I don't think that appeals to the majority on Bowsite).
Folks need to look at the big picture as to what is going on. It isn't about my PP's or your PP's. It is about the state of hunting in the west and the direction it is going.
It is inevitable that the luxury of hunting for avg joe will diminish as demand increases and states realize the money they COULD be making. We may never see the demise but we are on the path of making it a reality.
I disagree. SFW and WYOGA are not on the same page on much of anything as far as I can tell.
If WY SFW wants auction tags for themselves, I think they'll need to try it in some other state.
Everyone complained and talked boycotting the state...
Reality is, our rates are still comparatively cheaper than most other NRES tags and we have no shortage of hunters who flock here to participate.
Personally, I think Most States should be in the 90% Resident, 10% NRES ratio. Here in Colorado, we are still overly generous to the out of state dollar.
We can revisit this in about 5-7 years. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. However, I don't think I am and I think a lot of folks are going to look back and realize they were played as pawns.
So, you think that 40% of sheep and grizzly, 35% of goat and caribou and 25% of moose and elk is too high for non-residents? That's the at-the-moment allocation split put forth by BC"s government and Guide outfitters. AND non-residents don't have a draw opportunity!!
I think by the time I'm done, I'm around $350 for a special price antelope tag for Wyoming. That's OK with me, but if it goes to $500 or close I'm out for sure. I'm not sure where my cut off is, just have to wait and see.
It's more a bean counters game than actual wildlife management.
Never ends...
So what did you do to squash 90/10 like I did and am now doing by sending out emails and letters against HBO149 that will increase NR fees a bunch to have a shot at deer, elk, and antelope tags? Answer: Probably nothing but shoot your mouth off on a thread like you just did! Shame on you and your kind that only piss and moan on the net and do nothing to help yourself where it counts! Not to worry though, as I've got your back!
Grasshopper, that's a very selfish way to look at it. There are plenty who can barely justify a $600.00 tag and one trip to Wyoming. Double the cost and you just kept them at home.
It's extremely disturbing to me that some hunters have the attitude that it's ok to screw the average hunter if it gives them a better shot at "their" tag. In my mind that exact philosophy is the biggest threat to our sport these days, even more so than groups like PETA. Once you price everyone out of the sport, who will be there to defend it?
An $1100 tag for either sex with the same length of seasons is a good deal for someone who needs to be flexible on their hunt dates or wants to enjoy several weeks of hunting in a limited entry unit or "less crowded than CO" Gen units every year.
Or pay less and hunt Wyo Gen less often, hunt in leftover LE grizz units, or in the CO crowds.
Not saying I'm happy with the 40/60 switch as it will lower the odds for those who refuse to pay the higher price. Just saying there are options out there for those who are on a tighter budget.
Which is why they were behind the NR Wilderness rule.
And why they were behind the original Special/Regular NR draw splits.
And why they were behind defeating the 90/10 nr Sheep/Moose quota change.
And why they're now behind changing the Special price tags to 60%.
While it's an extra grand and I can wing that, it just bothers me and that's why I don't app in the Special draw.
And why they were behind the original Special/Regular NR draw splits.
And why they were behind defeating the 90/10 nr Sheep/Moose quota change.
And why they're now behind changing the Special price tags to 60%."
Spot on observation.
I'll bet when WYGOA first pushed for 60/40 split, they are using same arguments that they are today. Once they achieved the special draw years ago, 60/40 just became numbers. No science behind those percentage splits. Just as 40/60 are just numbers.
If you think 40/60 will be retained for your hunting lives, you are high. Why not 25/75? Once you reach such a small percentage of regular draw, why not bring the regular draw cost up to = special draw $$$$? (Of course, special draw tags will be priced/raised "extra special") In exchange, WYGOA might even reduce the split back down to 60/40, because they are looking out for the DIY guys! (SARCASM). After several years, repeat.
What I see here is that hunters all have differing tipping points. Opposing groups see these divisions and take advantage.
Some hunters see the big picture, attempt to rally troops, speak out to try and affect change. Some look out for there self interests and accept changes. (For whatever reason) That is until change affects THEM. Sorry folks, that snowball started rolling long ago and you watched it plow through. No stopping it now.
This is what is sad.
That is problem with government. It is often times not ran as a business. It is also a problem when people who have made a career out of not working are elected to office. Kudos to Wyoming for generating money for their state without breaking the resident's backs. They are only beholden to the tax payers of that state.
Unlike our federal government a state can't print money.
The North American model cannot be run as a business. If it was, you would end up with a European system of management and the average Joe Blow hunter would be absolutely screwed.
This isn't about "not breaking the resident's backs". This is about a very powerful lobby that is looking to make more money for their constituents.
Every time there's a forest fire, you should get a bill.
Every time you leave your private property and come under the protection of the police, you should pay each jurisdiction for the security of society they provide.
This goes on and on.
Just because govt is inefficient, it does not mean that the continued increase in cost of hunting is not bad for the working-class guy and ultimately, the sport.
My belief is that government should be run as efficiently as possible to provide the minimum services required at the lowest possible cost. Taxes, tag fees, etc... should be just enough to cover these costs, and not a penny more.
Of course, in this case, we have the outfitter lobby working the system to screw over the DIY nonresidents, who they've decided are their enemies. Someday they may need them as allies but at the rate their going, it will be too late.
I'm helping a relative plan a guided elk hunt for he and his son. I was going to recommend western Wyoming but, after seeing this, I decided to steer them somewhere else. I've already contacted an outfitter in another state who they will work with. The WYOGA's selfishness just cost one of their members in the Bridger-Teton National Forest (two) week-long fully guided elk hunts.
I would love to live in a world where we only paid for things we actually used. While you and I no it is not reasonable it would be a way of getting the 43% of Americans that don't pay squat (other than lottery tickets and sin taxes) to put a little skin in the game. Take away income tax and charge everyone a usage tax on all purchases and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Regardless of the intentions, and I will agree with all of you that it is crap on WYOGAs part, without budget shortfalls you wouldn't see this type of crap. Ultimately an elk tag will sell for what the market bears. If tag prices double and every single one of them is still sold then that is what it costs to hunt elk in WY.
For me....I live east of the Mississippi so a modest decrease in fuel prices is a bigger savings than a 1/2 price elk tag. While I hope that non resident fees don't go up I realize it is the norm and hopefully my 2015 WY elk tag is still reasonably priced. If I can't afford to buy the tag then I won't be hunting. It is that simple. Since I don't live in WY I have to play by their rules and have no say so other than choosing not to spend my money there.
Maybe it's time you get off 'your' high horse and Email on...You're a joke dude!
The only problem with it all is, everyone of us have gotten to where we are in this country on the backs of the system at hand. IMO, it's not right to change the rules once you're in a position to benefit from them.
I took 5 out-of-state hunts last season and will take 6 this season. I can afford that now because I've worked hard to get to where I'm at. But I remember where I came from. I buy my dad's tags for him because he can't. At 64, he's still sanding hardwood floors, but can only do it a couple days a week because that's all his body will take.
There's guys like him around the country. The more these tags go up, the more of them are priced out of doing this type of hunt. Not only is that a shame, but if our (hunters) numbers shrink to just the few that are well to-do, hunting as we know it will cease to exist. We're already a small minority. We already have a large amount of people that want us to cease to exist.
We need to keep opportunity alive for every hunter in this country, not just the well to-do. There was a time when the deer were the king's. We don't want to have to fight another war to regain possession of something that is rightfully ours.
Again, I could wing the special draw cost. I could gain points and hunt the general tag every single year. I don't do it out of principle. I think it's the right thing to do to wait my turn and not fund a system that excludes the average hunter and is, IMO, a slippery slope.
Not mad at all, but just wondering why you've got your panties in a wad! Funny you don't know me from a can of paint and yet continue to make these disparaging remarks! What have you done for us to help the cause for all hunters lately like I did in getting SF69 deep sixed DUDE?!!!
"You've done!" I think a lot of us and especially Kyle did a lot to get that 'deep sixed'...
Good for you though, atta boy!
Your reading comprehension sucks! No where did I say I was alone in getting SF69 defeated and I'm sure his presentation helped to cement the 4-1 verdict! However, comments like yours to members that you don't even know that are very derogatory do nothing to help the cause when we all need to stick together on issues such as we're talking about!
Hopefully you Bowsiters who hunt Wyoming will, or those who wish to, will write to the legislative committee and voice your opposition to this.
This is just one more step towards more "special allocations", which is a also just a little more of a slide down the slippery slope towards a European caste model of hunting.
Here is the link to the House committee members.
I will say though, that if I decide I want to partake in any hunt outside my own state, I will pay the price deemed appropriate by the residents of that state, or the folks they put in place to represent them. I will not cry, bitch, or moan about MY RIGHTS to hunt in their state, as I HAVE NONE!
Hunting out of state, as has been stated already, has NEVER been considered something the average Joe was going to be able to do all the time. It's a vacation that the average guy has to plan and save up for.
It amazes me the number of guys that bitch about the price of a tag, and likely spend multiple times as much on special rigs, atv's, bows, special equipment they don't really need, etc. etc. But the tag should be dirt cheap or they should be treated likie the resident of the state they are visiting....
It's really the "pay more to skirt the system" that nauseates me, despite the fact that I believe that working class folks shouldn't be priced out of hunting.
No one said they don't have the right to do it. But again I say, if hunting ends up being just for the rich 50 years from now, then hunting ceases to exist.
Everyone thinks that no one's ever going to take their white tails away from them. There is a point where hunters become a tiny enough minority where hunting just fades away or gets banned, like is happening in Italy. At some point, if there's not enough hunters to pay for the tags, the G&F depts lose the funding to make the seasons and enforce the rules, then hunting is gone just on the burden of cost to the govt for the tiny minority that remains.
Not sure where you are getting your rant from. If you don't want to write the committee, don't. It's as simple as that. If you support the bill, write to them.
I don't agree with a special privilege for more money system. I fully agree with paying more for a NR tag and have never complained about that.
When we have a European model, folks will wish they had paid more attention.
I am not aware of anyone bitching about paying more as an NR. Not the issue. Issue is increasing the number of "special tags" at the expense of the "regular tags.
The system of regular and special tags only differentiate what applicants are willing or able to pay. Either tag allows you to hunt the same unit, same animals.It establishes a tiered system. Think royalty and peasants.This bill is increasing the number of tags for royalty, at the expense of the peasants.
What is 60/40? What is the justification for 40/60? In a few years, why not 20/80?
Instead of the legislators pretending they care about the common man and retain regular tags, abolish the special draw. They need to raise revenue, I get that. But the burden should be shared by all.