The woofs didn't eat all of the elk outside of the breaks.
There is some very good bowhunting in MT in general units. I haven't hunted a LE unit in years.
I know all this going in and choose to accept it for what it is. If I didn't I would just not apply. There are other states that are cheaper.
This years app to Mt ran $941.00 Wyoming special was about $1100.00 if I drew.
Montana does give you a heck of a lot of flexibility, especially if you are willing to cross over from archery to rifle season. I don't but many do.
For the approximately $1,000 price tag you can also hunt upland birds and deer, as well as fish.
It seems to me you are barking up the wrong tree. WY is no longer an every-other-year proposition either. This is almost as bad as the guy that specifically called out Bob in the WY thread.
I'm not saying that there aren't cheaper options. What I'm saying is you don't need to drop two bills on points in MT, and you don't need an LE permit for a great hunt.
I also realize that there are closer options for guys back east. I'd spend more in gas getting to CO than I would save in license fees.
Nevada is similar to Arizona at $159 plus fees. Again, the bonus is sheep applications and a hunting license if you choose to use it.
Montana is going to run you roughly $190 plus fees...*IF* you turn the general tag back in for refund. You can also choose to hunt instead...which reduces the cost of your point to $20.
I'm a DIY guy, but I try to hunt the best public ground possible. What I'm spending in an attempt to accomplish that is a drop in the bucket when compared the cost of buying my way on to some primo private ground.
At the end of the day...the game is what it is...and it is up to the individual whether or not to play.
I think you would be better off going to Colorado or Wyoming. Non-residents like to complain about the price, but love to hunt here. Too funny.
When I brought up the same points 2-3 yrs ago, the thread that ensued made this thread look like boy scouts singing kumbaya. There are some people that get really defensive of MT's system because for them, MT is the bee's knees, they really don't care if another NR comes to MT, and they can't imagine not spending the money. They'll tell you to go elsewhere.
That's what I do. I don't hunt elk or build points there and the state of MT, nor its residents, nor its system's apologists, nor the NR hunters there, nor their elk, miss me one bit. They won't miss you either. Their system is their system and it's either worth it to you or it's not.
WY is my go-to state to hunt elk and I apply/build points in CA, NV, AZ, NM, UT, CO, WY, and KY for elk because that's where the state's systems fit with my elk plans and hunting schedule. I'd add OR if they went to a 365 day license like UT, otherwise it's not worth it. I don't apply for elk in WA because, like MT, you have to buy the general license first and you can't return it. Again, it's not worth it in WA.
MT doesn't fit into my plans because I'm not going to hunt there every year when I can hunt WY as frequently as I can. If I could only hunt WY every 5 yrs or so, I'd hunt MT or southern ID.
Nothing against the state of MT: I've vacationed there several times, I apply for sheep/moose there (definitely worth it to me even with the increased BP cost change which I didn't like, but still pay). I have a lot of respect for the people and state of MT. But I've decided that it's not worth the cost to build points there because I'm not going to hunt there every year.
So basically, you decide if it's worth it. I hear you on the points you make, but you're only going to get static from the people who love to hunt MT when voicing your objections. The only way to voice your objections and not get static is to take your money elsewhere.
For the record, I completely agree with the sentiment that hunting not become just a rich man's game. The discrepancies spoken of above just aren't really there. Other states have more expensive tags/licenses. I'll be in to WY for $760 to hunt on the regular draw GEN license as long as 2 points will draw it.
"The truth of the matter is it costs $1000 for a NR to hunt elk in MT..." This isn't actually true either from the way I understand the regs.
1. Washington State is the most expensive to "just build points," since you can't return the tag. To actually hunt elk,
2. NV is actually more expensive than what you listed because you have to buy a 142 dollar hunting lic. Now, that's if you just apply for elk. I look at the cost as spread over the applications for 2 species of sheep, deer, and PH. 5 species total for me, but if one were just applying for elk, it'd cost about $200 total. To hunt elk in NV, it's essentially $1340.
That's one of the failings of the MT system. It's $200 for just elk. I can apply for sheep/moose completely independently in MT so I have no incentive to apply for elk to even out the cost like in NV.
1DEER PERMIT $0.00
1ELK PERMIT $4.00
1GENERAL - BIG GAME COMBO $991.00
Application Fee $15.00
Items Subtotal -$1,020.00
Hidden processing fee brings the total to $1,047.29
Curse you Montana for the hidden processing fee. I was OK with grand but that last $27 put me over the top!!!!! HAHA
I know. Before your post, I said, " they really don't care if another NR comes to MT..." We agree on this.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or insinuate any alterior motives. I'm just saying that there are people who think it costs too much and people who don't. The people who do are not going to convince the people who don't.
"I'll be in to WY for $760 to hunt on the regular draw GEN license as long as 2 points will draw it."
You can't compare those two things because the WY general tag is a better tag than the MT general tag. That's not just my opinion. That's the general assessment of anyone not prejudiced towards one state. It's based on overall success rate and trophy potential. Wyoming manages for quality and MT, for opportunity.
MT just slaughtered a bunch of their cows via rifle tags because some thought there were too many elk as they were over "goal." WY piles big bins of hay in places that there are too many elk that damage ranchers wintering grounds and charges hunters $7 extra to hunt in those units to cover the cost of the hay. Success rate and antler quality overall in the entire state is looked at completely differently in each of those states.
And again, it doesn't really matter the price. In the end, I'd pay it, as would others, if it fit into the scheme. It doesn't fit in because unless you plan on hunting there every year, it's not a good deal when there's other options. If it was a straight $50 to build points in MT, I'd do it in a heart beat. I can hunt WY every year on an easy to draw tag or a left over tag when I don't draw, still have CO as a 2nd hunt if I want one that's 1/2 the distance and 2/3 the price, and can build points for a trophy hunt in AZ, NV, and UT where the cost of applying for elk is spread over the cost of applying for several other species. Due to that, I'm stuck spending $200/yr to build points for just elk because I'm not going to hunt MT every year, which ends up being more expensive than the trophy states (NV, AZ, UT) if you app for multiple species.
It's not going to happen every year, but the average out of state hunter that applies in multiple states is going to have a tag every now and then. MT is like CO, it's a place you can hunt every year, but you're not going to have a trophy tag in your pocket. (I'm not saying that a CO tag equates to a MT tag). They also compare in that they have a few trophy units and a whole lot of essentially OTC units where the average OTC NR hunter without a guide, without a honey hole, is going to have a lower success rate with chances at smaller bulls in general.
For that reason, comparing building points in places like NV, AZ, and UT are not the same argument as building points in MT (not counting NM where a trophy tag can be drawn any year for minimal non-refundable costs). Building points in CO and MT have to be looked at independently and differently than any of the LE trophy states. If CO charged $200 for a PP and let's say $900 for an elk tag, (seeing as the MT elk combo, out the door, will cost you $900 out the door, although the Deer/Elk combo does cost $1050 out the door), than I wouldn't build points in CO either. In fact, building elk points in CO is of dubious value as well for other reasons, but that's an entirely different conversation.
So I understand the OP's "beef" with the costs. The beef is not the overall price, but the fact that they're out of proportion when compared with the other states.
I would only expect it. All these tag prices get raised every now and then. With the current yearly costs, I'll still apply for them so long as the cost doesn't get raised above a certain threshold. But again, it's got little to do with the tag price and everything to do with the chance you're paying for.
For instance, I apply in WY for moose, but not sheep. I can swallow a $1400 tag price and $75 non-refundable for moose, but I have the choice between units with 1% and 3% chance of drawing in the random round even if I'd never have a chance at a PP tag in decades. I chose a unit with 2% odds of drawing this year, or one-in-50. That's worth it to me.
The sheep tag is $2266 and 100 nonrefundable. That's steep. Especially since you have to put in the cost of the tag upfront. Couple it with the fact that I have a 0.2% to 0.5% odds of drawing in the random round, or around one-in-200 to one-in-500ish odds, that I can't hunt in the wilderness DIY, and it's no longer worth it for me.
It's all about individual goals and thresholds. There's a cap on what everyone will pay, but the value of what you're getting increases that cap. A breaks sheep tag, the tag itself, is worth a lot. But the odds of drawing one, ever, are exceptionally slim. If the yearly non-refundable went up much more, I'd switch to an easier tag to draw or stop applying.
If a MT general elk zone was on par with an average NV elk zone, I'd be willing to pay much more than MT currently charges.
It is cheap for me as a resident, but I also live in the middle of nowhere and have had to forgo a lot of amenities and make a lot of sacrifices to live here. Not the least of which is moving away from all my family, close friends, starting from scratch in a new state and assimilating into a new culture. Been at it almost 7 years now with no regrets, but I have paid my dues.
We all have choices and decisions in life. Mine has been to move to and live in a state that affords me wonderful hunting opportunities at a relatively low cost. It's completely fine and understandable if others won't or can't make the same sacrifice, but it gets tiresome to hear the complaining about the price every year around this time. It is what it is. If it's worth it to you you'll come, if not you won't.
Bernie1 comes here and hunts with me every year. I know he isn't thrilled with the price, but it's obviously worth it to him. He also killed a 350" class bull here for his first elk, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't regret paying out that season. Montana is one of the few places you can count on hunting elk every year as a non-res with great chances at exceptional bulls.
It's the same for me and the state of Iowa. I have dreamed of hunting there for years. Finally started putting in for my preference points and this year I'll have 3. When all is said and done and I finally go, I'll have close to $600 in license fees and points to hunt Iowa. Is that steep to hunt whitetails in Iowa when compared to some other states? Maybe, but it isn't to me when I consider the trophy potential and limited pressure that Iowa holds. That's not even counting the fact that I can't go there every year, but you still won't catch me complaining about it online or anywhere else for that matter.
I don't want to move to Iowa to hunt as a res, and so if it's worth it to me, which it is, I'll gladly pay for the chance at a big buck, and I can't blame Iowa for the price as I am willing to pay it. It's called the law of supply and demand.
Same analogy goes for Alaska. I would love to hunt browns, moose, caribou, sheep, etc, for low license fees, but at this point in my life I am not willing to move to Ak for the opportunity. All I can do at this point is dream and make future plans. Although I feel the licenses and guide requirements for Ak are expensive, I also don't have to live in the boonies of Alaska, pay high prices for gas, food, and just about everything else up there. Nor do I have to put up with extreme winters or the stress of living 3-4000 miles away from family and friends. I would be foolish to complain about the cost to hunt up there. Guys like Nick Muche and Idyll have found a way to make Ak work. I tip my hat to them, and think it's admirable that they're finding a way to do what they want to do. To complain as a non-res that I can't have the same thing as them without making the same sacrifices that they have would be ludicrous.
Few people ever complain about the cost to hunt Ak or BC, or the Yukon, but every year someone finds time to make a stink about Montana's license fees. When you live in Montana and every year you run into non-residents who are streaming in like crazy and turning once decent spots into rubbish, you might understand our frustration. Add to that having a couple non-residents ready to fist fight because I dared to tie my horses to a public land hitching post that they claimed was "their spot" (even though it was their first year ever hunting there), and you might feel the same way.
I know it may not be intentional but the complaining comes off as an entitlement mentality. I understand the tags are expensive, but Montana is a land of great opportunity, and there has to be checks and balances for those of us who live and work here, and for those who just want to show up for 2 weeks a year to reap the benefits of hunting our state.
Please understand, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there are 2 sides to every gripe.
What cracks me up is i still spend 1000s of dollars every year to hunt in my home state of Montana. I like to take advantage of all my opportunity's . Wait to you see the year Justin had in 2014. We choose to live here so we can do what we do. HUNT
After seeing Montana I knew I had to live here, so I moved out in 1977 and have been here ever since. The hunting is only one reason why I live here, and quite frankly, it's not the most important reason.. It's the life style, the people, the wide open spaces, the culture in general, etc. in addition to the hunting and fishing and outdoor opportunities overall.
No one is forcing anyone to buy a license, bonus points, etc. If a person doesn't like the cost, don't buy. It's as simple as the old law of supply and demand.. The higher the demand for anything, the higher the cost..
Preference Points are 50$ and are for the general tag, which historically, do not sell out, Bonus points are 20$ and are for the Limited Entry hunts. You have to pony up the 200$ to build bonus points for future years.
My only complaint is that they don't just refund your credit card back. Last year my refund cheque did not show up so I had to wait and get a form mailed, take time off work and go get a lawyer to notarize it and then send it back to them. And then hope the new cheque showed up. It was a huge PITA and it took me another 4 months before I got my money back.
Perhaps the cheaper license fees make up in part for having to endure such nasty scenery and limited human congestion where I live.
Unfortunately, my job of modest/low income does not allow me to have the luxury of applying in other states for their outrageously high priced nonresident tags.
One thing many people overlook is the fact that some of the highest quality archery elk are killed every year in general units. You could have a dozen quality hunts over a dozen years with a much better chance of killing a big bull each year than similar units in other states that have limited elk. It's all a matter of perspective.
Got to love the guys who lather in their "points" and the LE status glorified by Huntin Fool, Eastmans, etc, without a clue on what a state the size of MT offers.
I know I'll be hunting 350+ bulls this year, again, as could any non-resident who took a week to hunt MT. with/without a special permit.
I can't hardly get excited to burn my 18 points that I have in AZ and UT, and 10 in WY, because it would cut into my MT elk hunting time for me, my son, and friends.
Life choices. we make them, we live with em'
Enjoy your stay away from our playground my friend. NM is one one of the best elk states in existence. The fact that you don't like it proves one thing...you don't like it.
