I plan on 52# and VPA 3 blades this season if I can get my shooting up to snuff before elk season.
An elk, or any game animal, falls somewhere in between the two extremes. Penetration depends on what the point actuality encounters AND how it stands up to the impact. Point/head failure is the number one impediment to poor penetration. If the 2-blade tip rolls over or curls when hitting a rib bone, penetration will suffer. However, if the blade remains undamaged, the 2-blade or any similar profile/size 3-blade will outperform the Thunderhead, simply due to the tip design. A quality COC head is much more efficient than any pyramid (such as the TH) or trocar type point in penetrating tissue.
You are correct that on MOST shots at animals, point design does not make a difference. But when it does, it can be enough to make the difference between recovery and loss. Everyone has there own preference, usually arrived at by very limited anecdotal experience. Even a guy who hunts A LOT has limited experience compared to ALL shots at game.
A better approach, if you want the best potential is to look at the physics involved. Obviously, all the following assumes a properly tuned arrow, and other factors being equal for each point.
Blade integrity is paramount, especially at the tip. Modular is generally not as strong as a quality solid head.
Cut on contact is much more efficient than other designs. Conical being the worst, and trocar, slightly better than pyramid.
Smooth edges are more efficient than serrated.
Fewer blades are more efficient than more, although many prefer a 3-blade cut and they are less prone to deflection. I don't think anything is gained by more than 3 blades and the extra friction is not warranted.
A longer BH is more efficient than a short one.
Vents create drag, especially in tissue. Unvented is more efficient.
Other factors such as FOC and total arrow weight also have significant effect.
I killed a red stag with 3 blade VPA 125 and was very happy with the result so I think I'll use them for elk this year since I have some left (thanks, Ray! Great head)
I did not see any measureable difference in penetration. I shot into compressed rigid foam board and cardboard.
There is a theory that there is less pinch (friction) on the shaft when using a 3 blade vs. a 2 blade, resulting in greater penetration. ??
I use Zwickey Eskimos, mainly because the green color matches my fletching. :)
As Ziek thoroughly explained, there are so many variables involved. No question a sharp 2 blade will penetrate best. But there are tradeoffs with blood trail and cutting potential.
Out of all the shots we've made on big game, I've only had one "failure" (if you can call it that) with a Muzzy. Happened this year on a deer that I shot through from front to rear, and the tip broke off after exploding the femur and dropping it in its tracks. Otherwise I've shot through an elk scapula and have a Muzzy embedded in a bear spine that is fully intact (after breaking a rib on entry- standing bear shot from the ground)
In the 60's and 70's into the 80's, a lot of deer, bear and elk were killed with the lil glue on Wasp Broadheads on cedar shafts. ADHD yessir, after weighing several of my dads old cedar shafts from Bear, Cabales, Penn Woods, with heads attached they weighed around 480 grains. Not very heavy heads in today's standards, but I know guys that had no issue with penetration from 45# and 50# bows...
I know you used the Magnus Stingers a lot, as a to blade. Great head, but maybe you need to look into the Muzzy Phantom or even the lil Wac'em. I'm using the DRT heads this year, and after seeing what they do to fresh elk ribs, elk shoulder blades and elk leg bones from my 48 1/2 # recurve, I'm very impressed. A great head that sharpens easily, holds an edge, and cuts ribs great. And no sir, you don't want to know the weight of the lil .600 spine shaft...
IMHO, It only makes sense to use the most efficient head possible that has a very high mechanical advantage when using low energy Stickbows.
In that regard, one kill was with a 65lb Black Widow, 29" 2217 aluminum, and the old Satellite 4 blade .015" stainless blades. Sharp quartering away shot...about 17 yards...hit him "half way up" just in front of the back leg. The broadhead was buried in the front part of the opposite front shoulder.
I now shoot 2 blade Zwickey delta out of 54lbs. I've never had any tip failure, even with hard bone contact...again, on deer not elk. I don't have an issue with blood trails. They can be a challenge to get shaving sharp...takes me about 1 Brewers game per head :^)
I have had head failure with the old Bear Razor Heads...had 1 break off after a shoulder hit...and am hesitant to shoot em...too bad, easy to sharpen and I have a stash of em.
As said previously, hit em right and you'll be OK.
I tend to agree. Lots of different heads can work and I have found bloodtrails are more a product of shot placement and angle than number of blades. I stick with long narrow 2 blades.
Aside from all that those Muzzys and Thunderheads are good stuff.
Good luck! C
shoot as heavy as you can shoot, weighted carbons with big 2 blade broadheads for THE BEST setup for penetration
I did a pile of testing using a Athens Convixtion 42# compound, a radarchron, ballistic gel, several different brands and models of arrows and our various weights of just our VPA 2 and 3 blade heads. Hundreds and hundreds of shots over a couple months with various set ups. That bow may be kind of similar to a 50 pound recurve speed wise. Speeds were mid 170s with the really heavy setups to mid 220s with the light weights as I recall without being home and digging out my notebook. I found the sweet range with 3 blades to be 150-200gr total weight up front including the insert/halfout/outsert, then it started falling off with added weight. I also found smaller diameter arrows, like the Carbon Express PTX Charlie mentioned, as well as GT Kinetics, both using half-outs, did provide a little more penetration than standard diameter of similar weight. Easton Axis, and Beman Nightfalls also gave better penetration than standard diameter shafts. I recommend the use of footers and a Easton's broadhead adapter or our footer/adapters with either of those shafts using HIT inserts. When I put a thin plastic board up in front of the gel I had the first one push back in the shaft and slightly banana peel it drastically reducing the penetration. I had not used a broadhead adapter ring or a footer. I added footers made from 2016 aluminum shafting to the rest of them and never had the issue again.
The micros diameter shafts performed well too. If you are using standard broadheads you will need the use the outsert type like the VAPs, Black Eagle or the new RUSH arrows from across the pond in Australia.
As for two blades the penetration in just the Gel seemed to be there with less weight on average. I didnt get around to testing them with the plastic cutting board once hunting season came around.
A lot of time years ago was spent measuring how much force was required for different heads to get thru elk hide by placing it over a coffee can on a scale and measuring the force needed. The TH took almost 20 lbs to get thru the elk hide compared to 2 lbs on a COC.
Also, try shooting at a pillow case full off old rags with the two heads (which sort of mimics tissues the arrow would shoot thru on an animal without the shaft friction you get from a foam target). Even out of a lightning fast compound, the TH will only penetrate about an inch or two, while the COC will blow right thru like it's not even there (It's kind of eye opening seeing the difference, but how much it actually means for shooting at an animal remains to be seen).
Those are just my thoughts, in the end, shoot whatever works best for you and you feel most comfortable with and you'll be fine.
Confidence in your setup is the key to success. good luck
I hear guys say that they have tried the pressure test and, I believe it. I also KNOW that if you hit them where you should, what a chisel tip might give up on the pressure it takes to pass through the skin, it will more than make up for a weird hit on a heavy bone. And, it will "pop" that bone open instead of curling over and stopping penetration.
I've killed a lot of game with a compound bow shooting a moderately heavy XX78 arrow, tipped with a muzzy 3 blade, thunderhead, muzzy stinger, muzzy buzz cut, Steel force, satellite's, wasps, snuffers, Rocky Mountain heads, etc.... Thunderheads and Muzzy 3 blades were the best. All double bevel, COC heads will bend when shooting 80 pound compound bows, 500 grain arrows, at speeds of 250 fps or so, when they hit heavy bone in elk, deer, and bear.
The same COC heads will bend when shooting heavy traditional bows, with tuned arrows of various gpp designations, on deer. I'm sure the same applies to the other species but, I have never shot an elk or bear with a trad bow. So, I have no proof of that. :^)
I'm not a FOC junkie or a single bevel freak but, the simple facts says a double bevel COC head, will fail long before the trojcar tipped heads do, when you need it to bust the bone and keep on going. Is that practical to give up a slight penetration improvement when everything goes right? I think so. As penetration isn't going to be a problem with any arrow if you hit them exactly right.
I guess we can all say that we get them close, or we don't take shots that aren't all but guaranteed to be perfect. I'll say make sure the animal agrees to that before you preach it to me. And, while we aren't shooting rifles, we are shooting equipment that will yield great results if we approach it correctly. A thin, double beveled head is great. It has killed a bunch. But, it is no match for a chisel tipped or, a single beveled COC head when it hits something with resistance. Because of the flimsy tip that comes with a double beveled, COC head.
Sorry I got so long winded but, I have beat those romantic guys over the head with this on the wall. They don't listen because most are not serious hunters and, Fred and Howard used a double beveled, two blade. The COC will kill just fine. But, you didn't ask that. You asked which would be better. Well, it depends on what you are hunting and on where you hit them. Everything but big hogs, the trojcar tipped head is superior. On big hogs, the single beveled COC head is due to that shield inducing less penetration. I'll take the option that gives the best chance in every situation I might be facing.
God Bless
But not all double bevel two blades curl. I shoot a 200 grain muzzy phantom SS and have shot it straight into a cinder block wall (as well as angled hits)several times out of my compound bow (with 70+ ft-lb), and NO curling or even minor bending for that matter. They are hard to get out of the wall though.
Out of my long bow, I shoot single bevel grizzly which holds up pretty well to the wall test as well.
Good luck,
If you keep em sharp and hit the mark just about any of the above mentioned broadheads will work just fine!!!!
I have shot 3 and 4 blade as well and they worked great. They don't penetrate as well, but if they are sharp and have a decent angle of attack, they penetrate very well and have more cutting area as they go through. I just like the ease of sharpening 2 blades and they fit in the quiver nice.
The broadhead that is "best" for a bone hit isn't necessarily the "best" for a steep angle shot that needs to penetrate a lot of soft tissue.
Over the years, I have shot Thunderheads (and I also sharpened the points). In their time they were good BHs. But I experienced blade failures on occasion, and a component system just isn't as strong as a one piece design, nor do they penetrate as well as a true COC. I have also shot 2 -blade Magnus heads, G5 Montecs, and HellRazors. My wife shot some of the above and one of the trocar type heads (I can't remember which). Most of the rest I dismissed as gimmicky. Overall, nothing works any better than a straight COC 3-blade, with about a 2 - 1 aspect ratio and about a 1 1/4" cutting diameter. After that, it's all about precise machining, strength, and quality materials. We now both shoot VPA unvented heads, and so far, after killing elk, moose, sheep, mt. goat, and even tender little whitetails, I have no reason to change, and we shoot vastly different set-ups in terms of energy.
With the basic design described above, (Montec, HellRazor, and VPA) I've seen incredible penetration several times. A high quartering to hit on a bear - through the scapula, chest cavity, stomach, out the gut, back in the off side rear leg shattering the femur. A similar hit on a whitetail, except shattering the knee. A straight on shot at a 6 point elk that went horribly wrong. He was walking downhill straight at me, drooling and posturing with his antlers. At 16 yards I released just as he lowered his head. The arrow hit him in the corner of the jaw, broke it and continued on into and diagonally through the center of his neck, just penetrating the hide in front of the top of the shoulder.
If nothing bad happens at impact, any BH will do the job. I choose my equipment to do the job when things out of my control, don't go well.
There is no comparison between a good 3 blade COC vs Thunderhead, the coc will win every time.
I am sorry but, no a good COC head will not win every time. There is a deer running around my hunting grounds right now with a 200 grain snuffer scar in it's shoulder because the tip curled over stopping it. That's came out of a 65 pound longbow on a 600 grain. Even the beefy Snuffer isn't immune from the weakness of those needle tips.
I have never shot anything with a VPA but, plan on it real soon. However, unless they are some super steel, that needle tip is their weakness. And, they might very well be super. I don't know. What I do know is theory and fact can be different. I'll take fact and proof. God Bless
Again, whitetails, no real issue. Could never understand the need for 600 grain arrows with 250 grain single bevel heads to kill a 100# deer. And most pics you see show over half the arrow sticking out. Don't make sense. Elk, sure, used to kill them with 100 grain Muzzy glue ons on the old Beman and AFC shafts. But I learned in the 90's to sharpen the trocar tip, making a coc head. Never really weighed them, but the outsert did lead to a lil more foc... Stick bows don't produce a lot of ke, and the "good doc" followers will stick with the momentum thing. It's all about tying a string to a rock and throwing the rock, the string will follow. That was explained by OL Adcock to me.... Maybe that explains the poor penetration on lil whitetails! Maybe, instead of talking about Broadheads, we should be advising an increase in arrow weight.
The moose was shot the year before with a compound (guides didn't know what poundage, but moose hunting with a compound I'm betting over 60) at 30 yards.
No ribs were cut (with either head) that we could tell but something bent over that flimsy blade, Maybe a rib, but I can bend those blades with my thumb.
I'm pretty sure after looking for the moose the guy said his Slick Trick sure did fly well.
Why would you take a chance and not shoot COC?
Bowmania
No. We should be talking about both and other choices we have as well. Higher FOC, which leads to stiffer shafts, heavier overall arrow weight, and of course, proper tuning, can all benefit the outcome of a shot that is less than perfect. For instance, anyone shooting a "compact" head or mech. because they "fly better" is improperly addressing a tuning issue, which they haven't fixed but just masked.
Lindell, you have to use what you have confidence in. If the arrow/ broadhead combo flies straight and true, and you have te confidence in it, then use it. Lot of elk were killed wih old cedar shafts and heads like the old green Wasp glue ons and the Satelite screw ins and the Duke Savoras before all this efoc and heavy arrow issues.
We didn't know anything about FOC or heavy arrows - we just bought XX75s and went out and killed stuff.
I switched to Muzzys after I met the Musacchias in the woods one day, and John Jr. gave me some original Muzzy Matadors. I killed a six point bull the next day and have used them ever since. The arrow zipped through the bull and disappeared into space, never found it. That bull hero photo was used in their ad campaign the next year, full-page in magazines, etc..
Lol, remember the old converta point that you glued o the end of a cedar shaft so you could screw on the Satelites and Savoras? Them Jim Dougherty gave dad a bunch of 003s, and a new era began...
My bow was a 40# Wing target recurve. It shot bent aluminums just as well as straight ones.
Amazing we ever killed anything with that gear, if you read the threads now.
If you have a lot of Thunderheads and like them, they shoot well for you and you have a well-tuned bow and an adequate-weight arrow (not going there....), you'll be just fine.
Thunderheads kill a hell of a lot of elk.
I thought I'ld update this with a photo of a trocar tip bending "like the flimsy two blade." This is the BH I used to kill this year's TURKEY! It's a Trophy Ridge, and it hit the large bone in the turkey's wing on the way out. How do you think it would stand up to ANY bone hit on big game?
There is more to the equation than shape, whether it's a COC or any other shape.
But i cannot, nor can any of us. Too many variables.
Guess i've been lucky, So how many animals do you have to shoot before you can say with 100% certainty this broadhead will work every time?
You cannot.
If you make a well placed shot, with a bow of sufficient draw weight shooting a arrow of sufficient weight, almost any broadhead will work.
I just watched a video last night of a guy shooting a whitetail in Illinois with a compound bow, The buck ran off with pretty much arrow still sticking out. Baffles the heck out of me, considering i get pass through's with a 54# longbow?
There has GOT! to be other variables coming into play here.
I have absolutely no second thoughts about my equip ability to kill an elk,or moose regardless if its a muzzy 3 blade, thunderhead, or two blade ace or zwickey
Nor can i explain the apparent lack of penetration achieved by others, other than to say there must certainly be other issues going on, made a bad hit ect..??
and
2016's with 125 gr muzzys and thunderheads.
and they all work equally well.
Those 2016's hit hard, shoot flat, i have tons of confidence in them. With a razor sharp 2 blade head i'd use them for any North american game without any second thought.
The Muzzys are so hard that a file won't dent them, have to sharpen them on a stone. I've never had one curl or do anything like that on elk, deer or bear bones, (or rocks, for that matter) but I don't shoot a high-powered outfit either.
Lot of factors involved when talking penetration, or lack of penetration. Too many years guiding elk hunters and seeing elk shot with every kind of arrow/ broadhead combination. From expandables to the old Bear razor heads, I've seen them work great, and the next time, fail in one way or the other. Just like everyone else, I'm always looking for the perfect broadhead, and shoot as many as I can, putting them through my own "lil tests". I know what works and what don't work from my set ups, and know not to accept anyone's opinion on a head until I've shot it and seen for myself. What works for one guy might be the worst head the next guys ever seen...
I use Trophy Ridge for turkeys, and turkeys only, because they make a large cutting 3 blade in 125 gr. I would prefer heavier, but for close range turkeys, with a 5 gr washer, that's close enough to my 150gr VPA I use for everything else. However, just about every time I shoot a turkey with one, there is some type of significant failure. Most of the time, the turkey is still dead. But I sure wouldn't shoot one at a big game animal.
There is no doubt that a well designed trocar point is very strong, but it has other disadvantages that I've mentioned above. More easily deflected, and paired with component (replaceable blade) design. If the tip of a 3 blade COC is strong enough, it will outperform the best trocar designs over the majority of possible hit scenarios. VPA has accomplished that, especially with their 150 non vented 3 blade.
What you didn't say was a purposeful indirect slam at the leatherwall and its faithful readers and contributers.
Many of the people who responded are Leatherwallers !!
I figured it'd be sooner than that Lou.
Hawkeye, I'm going to assume the reason he didn't do it over there is that the mindless answer is always a coc head. Because that is what a good bit of the bomantics shoot. Because that is what Fred Bear or Howard Hill shot.
The OP is looking for unbiased opinion's. Not romantic ideas. He'll get a better sample of those opinions, on his question, over here versus over there. God Bless
used ace 145's last season worked well.
In my broadhead drawer there are an assortment of Ace, Zwickey, magnus 2blades.
And muzzy, and thunderhead 100's and 125's
whichever one i choose on any given year is more of a heh....i think i'll shoot these this year. rather than a which one is best,or which one penetrates the best in-decision.
They All work good.
